WSPR from Oregon/Washington

[Bob W7PUA]

Hello All - As the result of welcome encouragement from several in N. Calif, three of us are now exchanging signals up north:
W7PUA CN84io  Corvallis, OR
W7CQ Jimmy CN83jx west of Eugene, OR
W7SZ Larry  CN85uo Washougal, WA (across the Columbia R from NE Portland)

I haven't details on the others, but I am running about 50W to 4x12 el pointed about at roughly CN88 (Sacramento is far enough east to be out of the main part of the beam---I can change it anytime, if that is useful.)  I am using a DSP-10 (plus an amplifier) that is GPS frequency controlled.  My QTH is very good in the CA direction.  I will be able to run this until about 8 PM PDT tonight, and plan to have it back tomorrow AM.

We are a bit confused about frequency.  Apparently everyone is using 144.489 dial, even though other places say 488---what is the deal? All three of us are using 489---that puts me at 144.490 529 as it is set now.

We have all done WSPR on HF, and so are looking forward to seeing how this goes for 2-m.

Thanks to all for the assistance.

73, Bob  W7PUA

[Glenn Elmore]

Wow! That was fast and welcome to you all!!!!

As a welcome gift I am delighted to report that I just got a phone call from Bob, WA6M, also in CM88 who had turned his 9' el at 80' AGL your way and...
ALREADY has multiple spots of W7PUA ! e.g.

2012-10-09 22:58

W7PUA

144.490529

-27

0

CN84io

50

WA6M

CM88in

672

180

Bob isn't able to post to the group until later this evening but he wanted me to write. Hopefully, he can fill us in on station, headings etc  later today.

At this DX, I suspect we are seeing ACS or a mixture of ACS and tropo enhancement but we may know more once I get my antenna turned around. That may not happen until tomorrow but if you all up there can continue to run, this should be very interesting!

Glenn n6gn

[KP4MD]

09 Oct 2012 - New West Coast 2 meter WSPR DX record - 672 km W7PUA to WA6M

[Scott Avery]

Great News!

 

I have my antenna looking north as of 0100Z.

Sure see a lot of ACS now, and some signals not decoding.

When beaming 130 degrees, the north and south stuff all looked direct and clean.

 

We have aircraft going up US 101 from the south heading north up to San Jose.

Will see what happens on this beam heading.

 

73, Scott WA6LIE

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[K6PZB]

DX records fall again!

2012-10-10 02:06

W7PUA

144.490537

-26

0

CN84io

50

N6KOG

CM97gs

775

168

John
------------

[Glenn Elmore]

I've listened and watched for awhile but have really bad noise in that direction - -148 dBm/1 Hz   instead of ~-158 dBm so taking about a 10 dB hit against being pointed 140 true where I was.  I'll leave it overnight but may return to east or south in the AM.

Really glad we're seeing such good results though. It would be very interesting to see if we can correlate air traffic with spots on this path as we have on others. Probaby slightly less traffic than on the SF - LA path.

Glenn n6gn

[James E. Wells]

I am interested in the map below. Is this an online map or part of Google Earth? I have been looking for a KML file for the Grid Square for Google Earth. I use Google Earth to put pins with my QSO information from my log. I like the Google Earth as there are so many overlay files for the program (and it is free) I have one that lists all the repeaters and one for IRLP, plus a few others. It comes with some nice ones like you can look where all the earthquakes have happened and where shipwrecks are located. And it has all kinds of other ones too. So that is why I am asking about the map below. I like this map and was wondering if it is a downloadable type of overlay for Google Earth.

 

Thanks

James Wells

KD0AJZ

 

From: KP4MD

Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2012 7:53 PM

To: 2-mete...@googlegroups.com

Subject: {2 Meter WSPR} Re: WSPR from Oregon/Washington

 

09 Oct 2012 - New West Coast 2 meter WSPR DX record - 672 km W7PUA to WA6M

 

[Phil Williams]

Is there anyone in the Dallas/Fort Worth area that would be interested in doing some testing with WSPR on 2 meters?

Phil KA1GMN

[KP4MD]

That map was copied and pasted from http://wsprnet.org/drupal/wsprnet/map in "Hybrid" view.

It is a two dimensional Google map with overlays produced by the code on that page.

Carol

[n3...@aol.com]

I see. I was the golden child but when new kids come to play I'm forgotten about. :)

 

A little shy of the record.

 

2012-09-29 04:24	WA6M	144.490471	-26	0	CM88in	50	N3IZN	DM13ji	797	135
2012-09-29 04:14	N3IZN	144.490507	-28	0	DM13ji	10	WA6M	CM88in	797	318

2012-09-29 04:24	WA6M	144.490471	-26	0	CM88in	50	N3IZN	DM13ji	797	135
2012-09-29 04:14	N3IZN	144.490507	-28	0	DM13ji	10	WA6M	CM88in	797	318

2012-09-29 04:24	WA6M	144.490471	-26	0	CM88in	50	N3IZN	DM13ji	797	135
2012-09-29 04:14	N3IZN	144.490507	-28	0	DM13ji	10	WA6M	CM88in	797	318

WA6M to N3IZN at 797 km

-----Original Message-----
From: KP4MD <kp...@cfmilazzo.com>
To: 2-meter-wspr <2-mete...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Oct 9, 2012 5:53 pm
Subject: {2 Meter WSPR} Re: WSPR from Oregon/Washington

[Glenn Elmore]

It looks to me like 797 is still the West Coast best, by about 20 km.  What we need is someone further south, maybe near San Diego.
Also, we may get the right blend of tropo enhancement and ACS and w7sz may enter the fray. (:>)

My emerging model of the propagation mechanism, ACS from a 1e3 ft^2 aircraft at 40,000 feet, tropo enhancement at both ends and capable 2 m stations would seem to allow for even a bit more DX than these numbers.  I see spots that don't jump out as being heavily tropo that are longer:

2012-10-04 17:58

GW3UOF

144.490429

-15

0

IO81fp

+40

10.000

DJ6OL

JO52ap

932

579

and some that are probably involving stable K > 4/3 refractive index longer yet.

With the false band reporting that happens, it's a bit hard to know which ones spots in the data base to throw out and which to include.  Still, maybe we can start with
a count of states spotted soon! (:>)

I'm interested to see what happens as a few of us QSY/hop to 432 and 1296 MHz as well.  I think the mechanism may still hold and spots will likely emerge on those bands as well.  This seems supported by the AES (specular aircraft reflection rather than random scatter like ACS?) work described by the VK's.

Don't power down your station just yet, I think we've only begun!

Glenn n6gn

[n3...@aol.com]

I see 1,354 km as the future record. That would be N3IZN to W7PUA........

 

Like I said all in good fun.

 

I have been discussing interface issues wih some guys in San Diego. Should see some of those guys on soon.

[James E. Wells]

Thank You. Little disappointed as I have been hunting for a grid square for the Google Earth Maps. I have been told it is out there and I have worked hours trying to find it. So thanks for answering my question. I will continue my quest looking for one little file.

 

James

KD0AJZ

[Bob W7PUA]

An update.  I have been on and off WSPR-2m for the last 24 hours.  My big issue has been the computer end.  I used to run WSPR with Ubuntu Linux 10.04.  An update has me now with Xubuntu 12.04.   With this version, WSPR errors out on loading.  I am trying to get that resolved, but that activity needs the same PC that is now busy under Win XP running WSPR.

That is a round about way of saying I will continue to be on and off 2-m!

I am not sure I have things set well on the receive end.  The noise level is around 5 dB, but the waterfall does not seem very well defined.  The DSP-10 version looks better in the sense of being less noisy looking.  I will continue to investigate that, as well.  I did et a decode on N6KOG, today.  He showed a strong -14 dB SNR, making me wonder why I didn't get more decodes, in general.

Meanwhile, thanks for pointing the antennas this way.  My antenna will continue to be around 175 degrees true, unless other needs arise.

73, Bob  W7PUA  CN84io

[Glenn Elmore]

Bob,
Sorry about the Ubuntu struggles. I'm running it also but not on 12. I've also successfully compiled from source under Linux but neither of these necessarily solves your problem.

We certainly hope you will continue to investigate 2 m WSPR with us, modulo snafus of course. It's really great having OR represented and I think we are perhaps already corroborating and learning.

WRT the single spot from N6KOG, this is not out of line with my current thinking for 2 m propagation at our DX. As I mentioned before, I think we have all been seeing a combination of mechanisms, scatter and maybe diffraction from mountain ranges, tropo enhancement (K > 4/3) and probably two kinds of aircraft scatter, ACS and AES.
I am presently separating these two as being random and specular - though it may not be that simple.

If you haven't had a chance to look at the links Carol posted on her web pages, considerable work within amateur radio has already been done on each of these. The VK's have been at it for years, throughout VHF-microwave, utilizing AES. Have a look at the papers (and arguments!) about them http://www.vklogger.com/forum

Also, have a look at Lars' SM6FHZ  pages http://www.2ingandlin.se/ACS.htm on ACS.

I'm increasingly believing that these mechanisms are useful in all of VHF - microwave for 500-1000 km class DX. This is further supported by the ongoing SF - LA net on 1296 where Jim W6PQL is virtually always "S1 to S2" over a ~ 500 km path.  I haven't done a link budget analysis for his and K6TSK's station but I strongly suspect that they are simply enough dB above our WSPR stations to completely account for SSB/CW contacts via ACS.

Anyway, sure glad to have you present and I look forward to learning more aboul all this with your involvement.

Glenn n6gn

[added:  I meant to say that the single spot from n6kog had something of the characteristic of AES about it. I can't say we've definitely identified this mechanism on WSPR but the VK's certainly have worked with it  ]

[Glenn Elmore]

I turned the antenna back around a little while ago to find the noise from the North down somewhat. Not as good as towards LA but better. At any rate, it seems to have helped:

2012-10-11 23:52	W7PUA	144.490529	-17	0	CN84io	50	N6GN	CM88ok	687	176
2012-10-12 00:14	W7PUA	144.490529	-19	0	CN84io	50	N6GN	CM88ok	687	176

This is from 4 elements at 25' AGL and barely looking over top of the house. I suspect the main lobe has been pushed upward quite a ways from zero degrees and consequently the gain at the horizon (or very close where the aircraft probably is/was) is a good deal less than nominal.

I'll stay this direction a while and see if you see N6GN.

Glenn n6gn

[Glenn Elmore]

Bob, It looks like both Bob, WA6M and N6GN ran all night pointed north. I notice something interesting. Both of these southern stations are phaselocked to the GPS constellation and see you at the same frequency 2012-10-12 05:30   W7PUA   144.490529   -16

0   CN84io   50   N6GN   CM88ok   687   176

2012-10-12 05:16   W7PUA   144.490529   -28

0   CN84io   50   N6GN   CM88ok   687   176

2012-10-12 04:06   W7PUA   144.490529   -29

0   CN84io   50   N6GN   CM88ok   687   176

2012-10-12 03:48   W7PUA   144.490529   -22

0   CN84io   50   N6GN   CM88ok   687   176

2012-10-12 04:54   W7PUA   144.490529   -23

0   CN84io   50   N6GN   CM88ok   687   176

2012-10-12 13:06   W7PUA   144.490529   -30

0   CN84io   50   WA6M   CM88in   672   180

2012-10-12 14:28

W7PUA   144.490529   -27   0   CN84io   50   WA6M   CM88in   672   180

2012-10-12 13:50   W7PUA   144.490529   -28

0   CN84io   50   WA6M   CM88in   672   180

2012-10-12 05:08   W7PUA   144.490529   -25

0   CN84io   50   WA6M   CM88in   672   180

2012-10-12 06:24   W7PUA   144.490529   -24

0   CN84io   50   WA6M   CM88in   672   180

2012-10-12 05:16   W7PUA   144.490529   -26

0   CN84io   50   WA6M   CM88in   672   180

2012-10-12 04:34   W7PUA   144.490529   -25

0   CN84io   50   WA6M   CM88in   672   180

I believe 529 is what you said you have set for tx . and the other way: 2012-10-12 05:28   N6GN   144.490499   -22   0   CM88ok   50   W7PUA   CN84io   687   357  2012-10-12 05:10   WA6M   144.490469   -19   0   CM88in   50   W7PUA   CN84io   672   0  2012-10-12 09:22   WA6M   144.490469   -27   0   CM88in   50   W7PUA   CN84io   672   0  2012-10-12 09:02   WA6M   144.490469   -27   0   CM88in   50   W7PUA   CN84io   672   0  2012-10-12 06:16   WA6M   144.490469   -25   0   CM88in   50   W7PUA   CN84io   672   0  2012-10-12 13:04   WA6M   144.490469   -26   0   CM88in   50   W7PUA   CN84io   672   0  2012-10-12 13:36   WA6M   144.490469   -25   0   CM88in   50   W7PUA   CN84io   672   0  2012-10-12 13:46   WA6M   144.490469   -24   0   CM88in   50   W7PUA   CN84io   672   0  2012-10-12 14:26   WA6M   144.490469   -23   0   CM88in   50   W7PUA   CN84io   672   0  However, you are seeing both of us 1 Hz low.  Although 1 Hz might sound like a picky difference, we have regularly been able to identify propagation with changing net path length from 'stationary' paths. On HF, it's easy to see a band open and close by the frequency shift incurred from the ionosphere height changing rapidly (usually around grayline).  On VHF, we have been able to see 'direct' signals at the same time as somewhat offset ACS signals due to a constantly changing path length and thus a constant-enough frequency offset for WSPR to decode. However, from what we see last night, it appears *all* the spots by you are coming in 1 Hz low while *all* our spots of you appear right on.  Is it possible that you have a 1 Hz offset between tx and rx or are we seeing some other phenomenon here? Glenn n6gn

[Bob W7PUA]

My goodness.  Things are starting to settle down here and I can start to contemplate all the great comments coming on this forum.

I got the PC problems under control by getting out another box and going back to Ubuntu 10.04.  All works fine there.  I don't want to burden this group with the messy details, but WSPR has both run-time and compile problems under Ubuntu 12.04---at least for me.

I also have the audio lines working OK, and the decodes now seem to be in line with the observed traces.  I have not hooked up the Internet time setting for the new computer, but will this evening.  I have had good success with that in the past for WSPR.  I am also hooking up DOSBox to run the DSP-10, so everything is all on one screen. More later.

Glenn, the strength of ACS and tropo scatter are interesting. An important issue is that if a station sees an elevated horizon due to hills (a positive takeoff angle), but can still see the aircraft above the hills, the ACS becomes a big deal.  Of course, if the takeoff angle is too high, one cannot even see the airplane and the attenuation becomes huge. The other extreme is my situation in the direction to CA. I have essentially a 0 degree horizon.  The Gannaway model for tropo scatter has a penalty of about 10 dB per degree take-off angle. I believe this often gives me an edge to tropo scatter in this direction

Back in the "old days," I had a 1500 Watt amplifier hooked to the same antenna I am using now.  W6KH had a very similar setup at a good location in CM87 (roughly 800 km).  We could talk on SSB anytime.  The signal strengths did not vary much and they never seemed to go away.  The levels were  in reasonable agreement with the Gannaway predictions.  We would never have had enough planes at high enough altitudes to support this. We really thought the propagation was dominates by tropo scatter.

In contrast, when I look in the direction of Seattle, the takeoff angle is about 5 degrees (around 350 km).  All indicators are that the strongest VHF/UHF signals are from ACS.  Spectral displays show the characteristic Doppler traces.  Tropo scatter signals are there, but the ACS dominates.  

Speaking of Doppler, it is probably old news, but the Doppler shift on ACS goes to zero as the path reaches its longest distance.  When the plane is at the center of the path, the cross-path component produces no Doppler while the component along the path is going away from the transmitter at the same rate as it is approaching the receiver.  This is a nice benefit for narrow-band digital modes.  It does not require a particular direction for plane travel.

Still speaking of Doppler, If the weather is coming in from the West, as is often the case, and the scatter region is not in the center of the path (maybe because of beam headings), there will be an average Doppler shift to the signal.   W7SZ calls the stuff in the troposphere "Scatter Matter", and that stuff is moving at a good speed.  Westerly beam headings produce positive Doppler shift for normal West Coast weather.  Our experiments over many years with the GPS stabilized gear at 10 GHz makes this easy to see.  Moving the antennas E-W on a N-S (non-LOS) path could change the Doppler considerably, and predictably.  Glenn, might this relate to the 1 Hz shifts at 2-m (or maybe not ;-)  ??

The bad news is that the antenna beams are finite, and so there is not only an average shift, but also spreading of the signal.  Not a big deal on 2-m, but obviously more of an issue for as one goes up in frequency.

In terms of experiments to identify propagation modes, W7CQ, W7SZ and I are attempting to keep the WSPR running all 24-hours, at least for a while.  We are all running about 20-25% transmit.  The lack of planes at 3AM should be apparent if everything is left constant at the receiving end.

Also, there is talk that several more stations may be on from WA state. If so, I would want to set up a pattern of one day north and the next day south.  We can figure that out when we need to.

Again thanks for all the comments.  Good fun.

73, Bob  W7PUA

[Glenn Elmore]

On 10/12/2012 04:56 PM, Bob W7PUA wrote:
> , but WSPR has both run-time and compile problems under Ubuntu
> 12.04---at least for me.

I don't think you're alone. The forums seem to show problems even with
11. Apparantly the version 3 of WSPR is fairly imminent, though I
haven't seen much discussion on the developers forum. Since at least
some of them are building first under Linux, I wonder if there will be
progress when it gets stable enough for release.

>
> Glenn, the strength of ACS and tropo scatter are interesting. An
> important issue is that if a station sees an elevated horizon due to
> hills (a positive takeoff angle), but can still see the aircraft above
> the hills, the ACS becomes a big deal. Of course, if the takeoff
> angle is too high, one cannot even see the airplane and the
> attenuation becomes huge. The other extreme is my situation in the
> direction to CA. I have essentially a 0 degree horizon. The Gannaway
> model for tropo scatter has a penalty of about 10 dB per degree
> take-off angle. I believe this often gives me an edge to tropo scatter
> in this direction
>
> Back in the "old days," I had a 1500 Watt amplifier hooked to the same
> antenna I am using now. W6KH had a very similar setup at a good
> location in CM87 (roughly 800 km). We could talk on SSB anytime. The
> signal strengths did not vary much and they never seemed to go away.
> The levels were in reasonable agreement with the Gannaway
> predictions. We would never have had enough planes at high enough
> altitudes to support this. We really thought the propagation was
> dominates by tropo scatter.

I confess to uncertainty about the mechanisms involved. Like you, I have
made contacts that closely matched the "tropo scatter" model - at least
if that's about inhomogeneity in the upper troposphere providing
predictable scattering sites for VHF+. When we originally broke the NA
DX record on 10 GHz in the mid '80's (our reign was brief :-) ) we
reliably copied signals across the ~650 km path at levels and with
characteristics that completely fit the models. 1 watt into 30" on one
end was right at the noise, with significant variation, into a 4'
antenna at the other end. This signal was completely repeatable, day or
night.
On that same outing the strongest signal was the same
transmitter/antenna when there was tropo enhancement, presumably at much
lower altitude. The peak strength was greater than on any other band the
whole weekend, 40m, 2m, 70 cm, in spite of rather high ERPs and large
antenna apertures on some of those bands.

I'm also convinced that TOA is crucial, though I think it can be
significantly affected by tropo enhancement at one or both ends.

I'm also rather flummoxed by what we're seeing from what we'd think is
more traditional scattering. KP4MD (for one) and those of us in Sonoma
County are quite separated by two fairly significant mountain ranges.
And yet, in addition to ACS, which can be obvious, there seems to be a
residual level. One of the remarkable things about the residual is that
it appears to maintain a great degree of axial ratio, of polarization
purity. My simple minded model of mountain-scattering wouldn't have
predicted that. I don't get it.

>
> In contrast, when I look in the direction of Seattle, the takeoff
> angle is about 5 degrees (around 350 km). All indicators are that the
> strongest VHF/UHF signals are from ACS. Spectral displays show the
> characteristic Doppler traces. Tropo scatter signals are there, but
> the ACS dominates.

That sounds identical to what we see on mid-range paths. I think that
KC6KGE to Sonoma County (~470 km) is virtually always ACS. However, I'm
not at all sure that's the case to WA6LIE in Salinas and certainly not
to N6KOG. They are closer, and perhaps have significantly more uniform
terrain along the path.

>
> Speaking of Doppler, it is probably old news, but the Doppler shift on
> ACS goes to zero as the path reaches its longest distance. When the
> plane is at the center of the path, the cross-path component produces
> no Doppler while the component along the path is going away from the
> transmitter at the same rate as it is approaching the receiver. This
> is a nice benefit for narrow-band digital modes. It does not require
> a particular direction for plane travel.

I think this fits my picture too. Though a crosspath aircraft will also
have large second derivative at mid-point - thus a Doppler component
will zip through the WSPR QRM zone of ~+-3 Hz quickly.
I need a Java applet or something that lets me put in an aircraft vector
and that draws the ACS component, particularly when the aircraft makes
turns, circles etc.

> Still speaking of Doppler, If the weather is coming in from the West,
> as is often the case, and the scatter region is not in the center of
> the path (maybe because of beam headings), there will be an average
> Doppler shift to the signal. W7SZ calls the stuff in the troposphere
> "Scatter Matter", and that stuff is moving at a good speed. Westerly
> beam headings produce positive Doppler shift for normal West Coast
> weather. Our experiments over many years with the GPS stabilized gear
> at 10 GHz makes this easy to see. Moving the antennas E-W on a N-S
> (non-LOS) path could change the Doppler considerably, and
> predictably. Glenn, might this relate to the 1 Hz shifts at 2-m (or
> maybe not ;-) ??
>

This is very interesting. I didn't know that you had observed weather
related (Epsilon-effective changes due to air pressure?). This also fits
with the other interesting mechanism we are all observing on strong
local signals - presently nicknamed WTV for "wing tip vortex". We have
strong correlation between particular flights, particularly those
landing/taking off when the aircraft is trimmed "dirty" and is dumping a
lot of energy into drag at the wing tips and producing large vortices.
These seem to occur on both prop and jet aircraft so it doesn't appear
to be engine related. Bob, WA6M, who used to fly for PanAm said that
they flew side looking radars to examine wind sheer in the 1970's. It
appears that we may be able to see rather small effects, small
modulation of the effective path length with WSPR.

I started a WSPR forum on the topic and there's more detail there - of
course, none of it may be correct!

> The bad news is that the antenna beams are finite, and so there is not
> only an average shift, but also spreading of the signal. Not a big
> deal on 2-m, but obviously more of an issue for as one goes up in
> frequency.
>
> In terms of experiments to identify propagation modes, W7CQ, W7SZ and
> I are attempting to keep the WSPR running all 24-hours, at least for a
> while. We are all running about 20-25% transmit. The lack of planes
> at 3AM should be apparent if everything is left constant at the
> receiving end.
>
> Also, there is talk that several more stations may be on from WA
> state. If so, I would want to set up a pattern of one day north and
> the next day south. We can figure that out when we need to.
>
> Again thanks for all the comments. Good fun.

Especially as we go higher, antenna directivity, actual ERP in a
particular direction and scheduling need to be figured out. I'd like to
look in all directions at once with a lot of gain but don't have the
hardware to do it. I'm totally open to ideas of how we can all
effectively play together when our beams get narrow.

It would be very interesting to have WA on too. I've worked it many
times on MS but never on tropo. I don't even know of anyone in CA that
has, though perhaps it's been done.

You're right. Lots of fun stuff to ponder, observe and try to decipher.
I'm glad you guys are on!

Glenn n6gn

[Glenn Elmore]

I turned my 4 elements back South a couple of hours ago. Since then I see this spot

2012-10-16 04:38

W7PUA

144.490529

-28

0

CN84io

50

N6GN

CM88ok

687

176

I've measured the F/B of the yagi and it really is pretty good. That would have been one strong spot for almost 700 km,  had I still been pointed North!

Glenn n6gn