Discussion on problems-with-the-reformist-translation

[9TEEN THE LORDS NUMBER]

Selam , Hi Shalom, etc etc,

Now you see why i oppose you refirmist translation Edip, you have
given the welll doiers more amunition to pick and fire at you and the
bekliveres.. Dr Rashad Khalifa ordanened his JOB send by GOD and the
intention was not to complicate and create confustion but to siplifly
thing. now we have peole taking your tranioning more seruiously than
Khalifas and have forgotten about the greates english translation man
has set his eyes on and the is not a sijen of contradiction or
abigouity within his translation. Get back to the true an the basics
so it is undersdod and not read out of context/. If YUou can show me
one ajor error in Khalifas book then i say Good`luck to you and what
you are`trying to achive. Aftre all he was send diwn by GOD to put it
straight to bring them alll togerther in an irrefutable evedendial
fact.
Thank You

[Jeff]

Salaams,   In my view, "19" does not reflect an "error" in translations or analyses by past kalifas or other traditional "scholars," the glorious aspect of "19" is that deeper  understanding is still available, reinvigorating the fact of the Qur'an as a truly living Message from a Source far greater that we, ourselves can quickly and fully understand.   Peace,   JG --- On Fri, 10/30/09, 9TEEN THE LORDS NUMBER <devote...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Edip Yuksel]

I do not understand your criticism or invitation.

I was with Rashad when he was revising his translation for the last
time and I involved with one-two-one discussion on many verses in our
daily work at Masjid Tucson. God thought both of us as He promises in
the Quran. We learned from each other. However, since he has gone from
this planet, we continued to learn and correct some of our
misunderstanding or dogmas we had not yet discovered.

If you look at the introduction of the Reformist Translation, you will
notice that it is an improvement on where Dr. Khalifa left.

So, if you wish to come up with constructive criticism, rather than
sending me a cultish invitation, COMPARE both translations and let me
know where we have gone wrong. In fact, if you read one of my articles
titled, The Acid Test, at www.yuksel.org/e/religion (in relation to
Submitters), you will learn about some of the errors I have corrected
since Rashad's departure.

I am not Rashad's servant, he was not my Lord. He was a distinguished,
brave and knowledgeable, yet fallible human being who promoted
monotheism.

Peace,
Edip

On Oct 30, 3:05 am, 9TEEN THE LORDS NUMBER <devotee.9t...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Truth Seeker]

- Salam -

The believer who started this discussion (19teen the Lords number)
seems to be misguided by people who promoted the idea that after the
departure of Muhammad other men would be messenger of God too.
He has taken as guidance sources next to the Quran in the same way as
many others have done and accepted seemingly Rashad Khalifa as his
messenger, problably based on his ahadeeth about being the "messenger
of the covenant".
He can not be blamed by those people, who accepted Rashad as their
messenger, for this cultish behaviour because he chose to follow the
quranic order of for instance verses 4:80 and 24:52, these verses call
on the believers in the clearest way to obey the messenger as God has
to be obeyed.
So it can be very confusing if others who accepted Rashad Khalifa as
messenger of God as well that they blatantly disobey their messenger
and let their own study of the Quran prevail.
(Of course that is the right way, but that is easy for me to state as
an accepter of code 19 without accepting the discoverer of the code as
a messenger, I regard Rashad as a person deeply rooted in knowledge -
verse 3:7)

It seems appropiate to reiterate here that anyone who promotes (I
trust well intended) the idea that there can be messengers of God
after the departure of Muhammad, contributes to the problem of the
existence of cults within the group of believers who intend to follow
the Quran.
The Quran warns against this behaviour in the strongest terms in verse
3:105 - the believers are not allowed to be divided into groups.
So one should not directly or indirectly support this sectarianism -
history has proven that the acceptance of messengers after Muhammad
has led to further sectarian division.

The assumption of messengership after Muhammad brings many well
intended believers in a dangerous humanly invented dillema: they have
to obey their messenger as God has to be obeyed - according to for
instance verse 4:80 and 24:52, or they have to follow the Quran and
avoid the unforgivable sin of ascribing partners to God, in following
writings of human beings as a source next the Quran - verse 9:31 and
42:21.
Many believers are rightfully disobeying numerous sharia-rulings of
Rashad Khalifa and rejecting parts of his translation of the Quran but
still accept him as a messenger of God, this behaviour is then
contrary to verses 4.80 and 24:52 - there seems not to be a solution
to this issue by saying that the mere acceptance of code 19 means that
one obeys the messenger; one can not obey or disobey a numeral code.
Code 19 can only be witnessed or neglected.
One can for instance obey or disobey the ruling of Rashad that there
are 5 prayertimes a day.

The remedy against cultish behaviour is the acceptance of the quranic
truth that Muhammad is the last person, who gave a written revelation
of God to mankind.
Muhammad is the seal of the prophets according to verse 33:40, so he
is the last person with a Divinely authorized scripture with him who
has, as a messenger-prophet, to be obeyed as God has to be obeyed.
The last written revelation to mankind is the Quran and not any human
made hadeeth next to the Quran as for instance the Appendix or the so
called authorized translation of the Quran.
The believers are adviced to accept the Quran as the sole guidance and
to have mutual consultation as prescribed by the perfect and complete
revelation given by God.
One should not wait for, accept any man as messenger next to Muhammad
- since he would then have to be obeyed as God has to be obeyed, this
only leads to open or hidden sectarianism, as we have seen.
We have the perfect Quran with us, who needs other messengers then?

Take care and greetings,
Truthseeker

On 31 okt, 16:07, Edip Yuksel <edipyuk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I do not understand your criticism or invitation.
>
> I was with Rashad when he was revising his translation for the last
> time and I involved with one-two-one discussion on many verses in our
> daily work at Masjid Tucson. God thought both of us as He promises in
> the Quran. We learned from each other. However, since he has gone from
> this planet, we continued to learn and correct some of our
> misunderstanding or dogmas we had not yet discovered.
>
> If you look at the introduction of the Reformist Translation, you will
> notice that it is an improvement on where Dr. Khalifa left.
>
> So, if you wish to come up with constructive criticism, rather than
> sending me a cultish invitation, COMPARE both translations and let me
> know where we have gone wrong. In fact, if you read one of my articles

> titled, The Acid Test, atwww.yuksel.org/e/religion(in relation to

[Nas Kavian]

Salam,   It is ironic to me that this message thread has come about, because days earlier I had been thinking about Rashad's role in the Quran alone movement.   I want to describe my understanding and if it is incorrect then perhaps those better enlightened than me can share their view.   1- Muhammad was the last Prophet   2- Rashad may have been a messenger   3- Rashad along with others played a monumental role in beginning the 19 realization.   4- Rashad may have been one of the first inspired to seek out te 19 pattern and so this makes him unique.   5- The 19 pattern was hidden and gaurded for thousands of years as a miracle so we could experience something in this age of technology.   6- If Rashad was a messenger to discover the 19 pattern, that may have been his only heavenly mission.  A mission from God.   7- Rashad was not necessarily tasked by God to create an English "Authorized" Translation, but this may rather have been a personal choice to create a translation.  No human translation would ever out weight the original.  So I doubt God tasked him as part of his original mission to create an English translation.  And his translation is simply his view of the Quran, it wasn't a comprehensive analysis like some other translations.   8- Using the term "Authorized" translation is just a literay tool to help promote the translation and gain some attention so lets not get caught up in the title.   9- I suspect personally that Rashad was removed from the world once his task regarding code 19 was established.  Translations and literary analysis was left to other gifted individuals by God's plan..   As well, I want to comment on Truth Seeker's email, he uses the word messenger but I think the correct word he should be using is prophet.  Then all his statements make more logical sense to me.  Not all messengers were prophets but all prophets were messengers....  There were more messengers than prophets. At the end of the day it comes down to the same consistent fact(s) of faith shared between us, that some in this thread seem to forget.   1- Believe in God and Quran alone 2- treat all humans equally as no prophet, messenger, or human is above the other 3- don't glorify or condem Rashad. 4- love/like Rashad equally as you would your own family member   If you especially did not know Rashad personally, you have almost no right to judge the man, to either condemn or glorify him.  All your information is coming second hand.  To glorify him you become labeled a cultist, to condemn him you are then associated with other muslims that follow hadith and hersay.  I say to you: avoid both.  We will be fully informed of who he was upon our resurrection.  Be Patient.   Nas. --- On Mon, 11/2/09, Truth Seeker <truthse...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Truth Seeker <truthse...@gmail.com> Subject: [19.org] Re: Discussion on problems-with-the-reformist-translation To: "19org" <19...@googlegroups.com>

Date: Monday, November 2, 2009, 1:39 PM

- Salam - The believer who started this discussion (19teen the Lords number) seems to be misguided by people who promoted the idea that after the departure of Muhammad other men would be messenger of God too. He has taken as guidance sources next to the Quran in the same way as many others have done and accepted seemingly Rashad Khalifa as his messenger, problably based on his ahadeeth about being the "messenger of the covenant". He can not be blamed by those people, who accepted Rashad as their messenger, for this cultish behaviour because he chose to follow the quranic order of for instance verses 4:80 and 24:52, these verses call on the believers in the clearest way to obey the messenger as God has to be obeyed. So it can be very confusing if others who accepted Rashad Khalifa as

messenger of God as well, that they blatantly disobey their messenger

to have mutual consultation as prescribed by the perfect revelation of

--

[<Haddou, El Mehdi]

Salam Nas,
I agree with all the points that you have made.
The issue of ‘Messengers vs Prophets’ has been dealed with in previous
posts (see:

http://groups.google.com/group/19org/browse_thread/thread/3f9342eb15723925
And http://groups.google.com/group/19org/browse_thread/thread/f76245e32c3710aa
)

Salam,
Mehdi