More rules questions

[Ralf Menzel]

Hello,

after playing a 4 player games last Saturday, I've got some more rules
questions:

1. Once more, converting a 5-share Company to a 10-share Company:
According to the rules (as written), I think that I can convert a
newly started 5-share
Company to a 10-share Company in the same Stock Round. Because of
this, I wonder
why the rules explicitly state the a Public Company started using a
Private Company must
start as a 5-share company. Or is the indent of the rules that a 5-
share company
can only be converted voluntarily after it has operated at least once?

2. Under 'Selling Stock' it says:

* There may never be more than 50% of the shares of any Public
Company in the Bank Pool

(That means at most 2 shares of a 5-share company may be in the Bank
Pool, right?)
Does this only apply when players sell stock or does it also apply for
a Public Companies issuing
shares during Emergency Money Raising or during the 'Redeem and Issue
Stock' step of a company?

3. In Section 9.9 'Redeem and Issue Stock' it says: 'A Company may not
issue shares in its first
operating turn'. Does this also apply to shares issued during
Emergency Money Raising?

4. We played that a newly auctioned Private Company can be exchanged
for a share of a Public Company
in the same stock round. In our case the CM&P was exchanged for a
share of a company with a token in
Madrid, before it operates even once. Is this allowed?

Bye,
Ralf

[Ian D Wilson]

Ralf,   See replies below. What was your first impressions of the game, as a whole?

--- On Tue, 8/2/11, Ralf Menzel <men...@ls6.cs.uni-dortmund.de> wrote: >1. Once more, converting a 5-share Company to a 10-share Company: >According to the rules (as written), I think that I can convert a

>newly started 5-shareCompany to a 10-share Company in the same Stock Round. >Because of this, I wonder why the rules explicitly state the a Public Company started >using a Private Company must start as a 5-share company. Or is the indent of the rules >that a 5-share company can only be converted voluntarily after it has operated at least >once? Starting a company is a buy action, and converting a company is a sell action. The order in a stock turn is strictly "sell then buy". You can convert a 5-share into a 10-share in the same round as it starts, but you have to wait until a later stock turn. I did it this way to make the rules simpler.

>2. Under 'Selling Stock' it says: >  * There may never be more than 50% of the shares of any Public >Company in the Bank Pool >(That means at most 2 shares of a 5-share company may be in the Bank >Pool, right?) >Does this only apply when players sell stock or does it also apply for >a Public Companies issuing shares during Emergency Money Raising or during the >'Redeem and Issue Stock' step of a company?

Yes in all cases. There can never be more than 50% of a company in the pool.

>3. In Section 9.9 'Redeem and Issue Stock' it says: 'A Company may not >issue shares in its first operating turn'. Does this also apply to shares issued during >Emergency Money Raising?

No. You cannot issue shares in the 'Redeem and Issue Stock' part of a first operating turn, but you can issue shares as part of Emergency Money Raising in any turn.

>4. We played that a newly auctioned Private Company can be exchanged >for a share of a Public Company in the same stock round. In our case the CM&P was >exchanged for a share of a company with a token in Madrid, before it operates even once. >Is this allowed?

Yes.   Ian D

[Ralf Menzel]

Hello,

On 8 Feb., 22:20, Ian D Wilson <ianwilson...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> See replies below.

Good. That means I interpreted the rules correctly.

> What was your first impressions of the game, as a whole?

Well, personally I made quite a few stupid mistakes. So I was busy
trying without avail to salvage my poor position. This left me too
little time to reflect on the design during the game. (But that I was
so involved is surely a good sign.)

The other players commented that they would have liked to have more
Public Companies available. We were rather eager starting Public
Companies. Already in the second Stock Round, we started six of them.
But most of the Private Companies were auctioned of for the Minimum
Bid. So this might change in a future game when we can better
appreciate the values of the different Private Companies.

There was no merger in our game. The other players seem to have had no
trouble with purchasing one and often two nice permanent trains for
their Companies, while I didn't want to merge my two Companies because
I held only the President Certificate for my (substantially) lower
valued Company.

Most likely we will play again in two weeks. (Another good sign)


I remember a few more questions that came up during our game. (I'm
confident that we got them right):

There is broad gauge track running from Bilbao to Santander and beyond
(hex G4). There is a Public Company with a Station Marker in Bilbao.

1. The Public Company wants to upgrade the yellow city tile (#57) in
Santander with a new tile (#660) that adds meter-gauge track running
from NW to SE. It can do this even though it has no route to the new
track on the tile.

2. Subsequently, the Company wants to lay a tile (#79, in hex G2) that
connects Santander and Gijon with meter-gauge track. Before it can lay
this tile the Company needs a Station Marker in Santander, because it
lacks a route otherwise. (Assuming there is no meter-gauge track that
leads from Bilbao to Santander).

3. Placing the Station Marker in Santander costs P40 because the
marker placement is across one provincial boundary. (Or does it cost
P80 because two provinces are traversed?)

4. It is allow to lay or upgrade a tile so that meter-gauge track on
one tile runs into broad gauge track on another tile.

5. Section 9.3 'LAY OR UPGRADE TRACK' says

'For an additional fee of P20, a Company may do another tile operation
in a different hex; both operations may be an upgrade. If the new
track on either of the two hexes is entirely meter-gauge then the
additional fee is only P10.'

Does this reduced fee apply when the new track is dual-gauge (i.e. for
all brown and grey tiles)? I don't think so.

Does it apply when there is no new track for an upgrade, e.g, when
upgrading Lisboa? (If there is no new track then all of the new track
can be considered meter-gauge.) I don't think so.

Bye,
Ralf

[Ian D Wilson]

--- On Wed, 9/2/11, Ralf Menzel <men...@ls6.cs.uni-dortmund.de> wrote: >The other players commented that they would have liked to have more >Public Companies available. We were rather eager starting Public >Companies. Already in the second Stock Round, we started six of them.

Most (if not all) 18xx games have limited resources: limited start capital, limited company capitalisation, number of tiles etc etc. A limited number of companies is part of this (in most games, anyway), and generally ties in with the certificate limit and the bank size. If you like games with (virtually) unlimited numbers of companies, you might want to try 1841 or 1817.

>But most of the Private Companies were auctioned of for the Minimum >Bid. So this might change in a future game when we can better >appreciate the values of the different Private Companies.

Do you think a set of guidelines would be useful?

>There was no merger in our game. The other players seem to have had no >trouble with purchasing one and often two nice permanent trains for >their Companies, while I didn't want to merge my two Companies because >I held only the President Certificate for my (substantially) lower >valued Company.

Mergers are not common. I mainly put in the rule because historically the N & MZA swallowed various other companies to become monster-sized. Generally, if you have 2 companies with 2 permanent trains each, there's no point merging them. But if you have 2 companies with only 1 train each but enough between them to buy a third, it's well worth considering. This raises a further more general design issue. It was my intention to design a game where it is easy to get one permanent train but harder to get a second. The game as it stands seems a little to easy to get two, I may need to change something: a) reduce the value of runs, b) increase terrrain and/or tokening costs, or c) increase cost of trains. The latter may prove the simplest solution to implement.

>Most likely we will play again in two weeks. (Another good sign)

Better luck next time! Please let us know how the game goes.

>I remember a few more questions that came up during our game. (I'm >confident that we got them right): >There is broad gauge track running from Bilbao to Santander and beyond >(hex G4). There is a Public Company with a Station Marker in Bilbao. >1. The Public Company wants to upgrade the yellow city tile (#57) in >Santander with a new tile (#660) that adds meter-gauge track running >from NW to SE. It can do this even though it has no route to the new >track on the tile.

Correct. For city upgrades it merely needs to be connected to the hex.

>2. Subsequently, the Company wants to lay a tile (#79, in hex G2) that >connects Santander and Gijon with meter-gauge track. Before it can lay >this tile the Company needs a Station Marker in Santander, because it >lacks a route otherwise. (Assuming there is no meter-gauge track that >leads from Bilbao to Santander).

Correct. Note that it would have to have laid the Marker on a previous operating turn, since you lay track before placing a Marker.

>3. Placing the Station Marker in Santander costs P40 because the >marker placement is across one provincial boundary. (Or does it cost >P80 because two provinces are traversed?)

P40 - it is one province away.

>4. It is allow to lay or upgrade a tile so that meter-gauge track on >one tile runs into broad gauge track on another tile.

Yes. You don't have to lay sensible track. Even a private could (in phase 3 onwards) lay different gauges of track in its home hexes.

>5. Section 9.3 'LAY OR UPGRADE TRACK' says >'For an additional fee of P20, a Company may do another tile operation >in a different hex; both operations may be an upgrade. If the new >track on either of the two hexes is entirely meter-gauge then the >additional fee is only P10.' >Does this reduced fee apply when the new track is dual-gauge (i.e. for >all brown and grey tiles)? I don't think so.

Correct. Dual gauge is treated as a third gauge for track building - neither broad nor meter - so the reduced fee does not apply.

>Does it apply when there is no new track for an upgrade, e.g, when >upgrading Lisboa? (If there is no new track then all of the new track >can be considered meter-gauge.) I don't think so.

Correct. No new track = no new meter-gauge.   Ian D

[Ralf Menzel]

Hello,

This is a rather late reply and a report from our last play on
Saturday. I didn't take any notes, so this is all just from memory.

On 9 Feb., 23:15, Ian D Wilson <ianwilson...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> --- On Wed, 9/2/11, Ralf Menzel <men...@ls6.cs.uni-dortmund.de> wrote:
> >But most of the Private Companies were auctioned of for the Minimum
> >Bid. So this might change in a future game when we can better
> >appreciate the values of the different Private Companies.
>
> Do you think a set of guidelines would be useful?

I think this isn't an easy question to answer. There are surely
players with different preferences. Some have fun working out
everything themselves. Others appreciate it if they are given some
hints, so that they can avoid gross misjudgements that might spoil
their first games.

I can think of two things that might help new players during their
early games. First, you could just say what experienced players
typically bid for the Private Companies and for combination of Private
Companies. Second, you could summaries how the different properties of
a Private Companies come into play during a game. For example, that
its Face Value determines the initial price of a Public Company
started with the Private Company, and that a Private Company in the
treasury of a Public Company is worth its Face Value to the Public
Company.
That exchanging a Private enables a player to get more than 60% of a
Public Company, and so on.

> >Most likely we will play again in two weeks. (Another good sign)
>
> Better luck next time! Please let us know how the game goes.

Let's see what I can remember. It was a four player game between
Christian, Jens, Jörg and me.

This time quite a few Privates where auctioned for more than their
Minimum Bid. One or two might even have cost more than their Face
Value.

In the second stock round each of us started one Public Company. Mine
in Barcelona, Christian and Jörg in Madrid, and Jens somewhere in
Andalusia (the North, because black is his favourite colour, bah).

In the next stock round all of the remaining Public Companies were
started. I had two Privates based in Valencia and Valadolid left. I
planned to merge the Valencia Private into my Barcelona Company, and I
didn't like the prospects for a Company starting in Valadolid, because
there didn't seem to be any attractive runs north of Madrid.
(Christian, the player with the Privates in Santander and Bilbao had
waited for metre-gauge track to be available before building some
track in the north. An experiment not worth repeating in his opinion.)
So I didn't start a second Public Company. This enabled Jens to start
two new Public Companies. I bought some shares instead and the L&G
Private. The homes of the four new companies were Santander
(Christian), Lisbon (Jörg), Porto and one of the cities in Andalusia
(Jens), I think.

From the rest of the game I can only tell some fragments. I managed to
get the CM&P Private Company for its Minimum Bid. Exchanging it for
one of the shares of my Public Company I got a Station Marker in
Madrid, which opened up the possibility for me to exchange all my
Private Companies for shares of my Public Company. Unfortunately,
there were too few shares left to exchange all of them. (In the end I
owned 70% of my Barcelona Company of which 50% stemmed from Private
Companies.)

During the same Stock Round it looked that in the coming Operating
Round Jörg's leading Company would buy the first 6E train. That would
enable the next two Companies (Christian's and mine) to discard their
then wounded 4H trains and buy permanent trains instead. But that
wasn't to be. Jörg decided to merge his two Companies, creating a new
Company with more than P2000 in cash, but which would only operate in
fourth position during the coming Operating Round. Of course this
delayed the progression of the trains. After the game Jens commented
that Jörg's merger probably helped him quite a bit, because he could
get better trains for his three Public Companies. For my Company it
made little difference. Without the merger I could have bought a 7E
and run in four rounds for something like P40 per share. With the
merger I withheld (which cost me about P80 in stock value and missed
income per share) and ran it three round for P74 per share.

In the last Operating Round (the penultimate Operating Round ended
with about P200 in the bank) the income of Jörg's merger Company was
P1390, that of mine was P1080. I don't remember the income of all the
other companies, but quite a few were in the P650-P700 range. Both
Barcelona and Zaragoza were unblocked. So a typical 5E run would be
something like France, Barcelona, Zaragoza, bypassing Madrid on the
east, heading for Portugal, bypassing Lisbon and Porto, Valladolid,
and finally Madrid.

In the end Jens won the game. I was second by P60 something. Jörg came
in third a few hundred Pesetas behind me, followed by Christian.

Oh, I remember that once during the game we has all nine tiles #58 on
the map. (But there was no demand for more.)

> >5. Section 9.3 'LAY OR UPGRADE TRACK' says
> >'For an additional fee of P20, a Company may do another tile operation
> >in a different hex; both operations may be an upgrade. If the new
> >track on either of the two hexes is entirely meter-gauge then the
> >additional fee is only P10.'
> >Does this reduced fee apply when the new track is dual-gauge (i.e. for
> >all brown and grey tiles)? I don't think so.
>
> Correct. Dual gauge is treated as a third gauge for track building - neither broad nor meter - so the reduced fee does not apply.
>
> >Does it apply when there is no new track for an upgrade, e.g, when
> >upgrading Lisboa? (If there is no new track then all of the new track
> >can be considered meter-gauge.) I don't think so.
>
> Correct. No new track = no new meter-gauge.

I think I like the following phrasing better (which should be
equivalent for the given tile set):

If there is new meter-gauge track on either of the two hexes then

the additional fee is only P10.

But that might just be me and my poor mastery of the English language.

[Dave4B]

On Feb 23, 3:05 pm, Ralf Menzel <men...@ls6.cs.uni-dortmund.de> wrote:
<snip>

> > Correct. No new track = no new meter-gauge.
>
> I think I like the following phrasing better (which should be
> equivalent for the given tile set):
>
>   If there is new meter-gauge track on either of the two hexes then
> the additional fee is only P10.
>
> But that might just be me and my poor mastery of the English language.

With the current set of track tiles that is correct, but if there were
meter-gauge large stations which upgraded without adding axtra track
it would not be. Probably.

[Ian D Wilson]

--- On Wed, 23/2/11, Ralf Menzel <men...@ls6.cs.uni-dortmund.de> wrote:

>> Better luck next time! Please let us know how the game goes. >Let's see what I can remember. It was a four player game between >Christian, Jens, Jörg and me. >This time quite a few Privates where auctioned for more than their >Minimum Bid. One or two might even have cost more than their Face >Value.

This sounds normal.

>In the second stock round each of us started one Public Company. Mine >in Barcelona, Christian and Jörg in Madrid, and Jens somewhere in

>Andalusia. This also sounds normal.

>In the next stock round all of the remaining Public Companies were >started.

This is somewhat unusual, normally the last companies are started later (and sometimes the 8th company not at all).

>I had two Privates based in Valencia and Valadolid left. I >planned to merge the Valencia Private into my Barcelona Company, and I >didn't like the prospects for a Company starting in Valadolid, because >there didn't seem to be any attractive runs north of Madrid.

The North is a bit of a problem: not as bad as Portugal was, but it needs to be better. I'm thinking of a dot town (Avila) between Madrid & Valladolid, but it will need more than that.

>(Christian, the player with the Privates in Santander and Bilbao had >waited for metre-gauge track to be available before building some >track in the north. An experiment not worth repeating in his opinion.)

Agreed. I'd recommend using the privates to build the broad gauge and use your major to create the narrow gauge.

>So I didn't start a second Public Company. This enabled Jens to start >two new Public Companies. I bought some shares instead and the L&G >Private.

There's nothing wrong with buying paying shares at this point. You don't need a second company to win - as you (almost) proved.

>The homes of the four new companies were Santander (Christian), Lisbon (Jörg), Porto >and one of the cities in Andalusia (Jens), I think.

Two companies in Portugal is unusual. Starting companies (especially later one's) with cheap privates like the L&C and A&S must have left them rather underfunded.

>From the rest of the game I can only tell some fragments. I managed to >get the CM&P Private Company for its Minimum Bid. Exchanging it for >one of the shares of my Public Company I got a Station Marker in >Madrid, which opened up the possibility for me to exchange all my >Private Companies for shares of my Public Company. Unfortunately, >there were too few shares left to exchange all of them. (In the end I >owned 70% of my Barcelona Company of which 50% stemmed from Private >Companies.)

I normally prefer to use the CM&P to start a new company, but not an option here.

>During the same Stock Round it looked that in the coming Operating >Round Jörg's leading Company would buy the first 6E train. That would >enable the next two Companies (Christian's and mine) to discard their >then wounded 4H trains and buy permanent trains instead. But that >wasn't to be. Jörg decided to merge his two Companies, creating a new >Company with more than P2000 in cash, but which would only operate in >fourth position during the coming Operating Round. Of course this >delayed the progression of the trains. After the game Jens commented >that Jörg's merger probably helped him quite a bit, because he could >get better trains for his three Public Companies. For my Company it >made little difference. Without the merger I could have bought a 7E >and run in four rounds for something like P40 per share. With the >merger I withheld (which cost me about P80 in stock value and missed >income per share) and ran it three round for P74 per share.

I haven't seen an early merger like that before - but not a bad idea.

>In the last Operating Round (the penultimate Operating Round ended >with about P200 in the bank) the income of Jörg's merger Company was >P1390, that of mine was P1080. I don't remember the income of all the >other companies, but quite a few were in the P650-P700 range.

P600-800 is the normal range for 2 permanent trains (E/M-types). Presumably the higher runs were with 5D's.

>In the end Jens won the game. I was second by P60 something. Jörg came >in third a few hundred Pesetas behind me, followed by Christian.

You are getting better! At this rate, you should have a runaway victory next time ;-)

>Oh, I remember that once during the game we has all nine tiles #58 on >the map. (But there was no demand for more.)

There are insufficient #58's in the tile mix. (Adding Avila will only make it worse.)

> >5. Section 9.3 'LAY OR UPGRADE TRACK' says > >'For an additional fee of P20, a Company may do another tile operation > >in a different hex; both operations may be an upgrade. If the new > >track on either of the two hexes is entirely meter-gauge then the > >additional fee is only P10.'

>I think I like the following phrasing better (which should be >equivalent for the given tile set): > " If there is new meter-gauge track on either of the two hexes then >  the additional fee is only P10."

This seems a succinct way to put it.   Ian D