playtest results of recent game

[Bob]

Ian, et al.,

Just played a game with some more experienced players, but who not
played 1858 before. I gave them the rules beforehand as well as the
strategy guide. They found the rules hard to follow and we stopped
numerous times to make sure we were playing right. I took a back seat
(not teaching them, but having them figure things out and correcting
where necessary. Here is the gist of it:

Privates: The concept of track laying was novel, but they immediately
wanted to know how they got trains. (ie., they were thinking of
minors in other games) and who payed for terrain. When they are used
to start a company, had initial problem figuring out how much money
went into the company.

No real train rush - the wounding of trains and when they are
eliminated seemed to make it predictable. One player was able to get 3
permanent trains without any problem. The other two only had one
each, and was going to have to withhold to get a 2nd.

The south would benefit from a port.
The province idea was difficult to get across. Examples in the rules
would have helped.
What exactly are the home hexes of a private. Is it indeed each and
every hex that makes up the private?

Some discussion on whether Madrid should have a 4th spot in the gray
tile.

They saw no need to even start narrow gauge track/buy narrow gauge
trains.

The winning person got the upper hand in the initial auction. Split
was 5-5-7, so he was able to get one of his companies to 90% by
merging. He was also able to get a couple of the green privates and
able to use these to get to 80% of his other company. His conclusion
is this is indeed an auction style game where 'he who wins the auction
wins the game'.

Time prevented us from completely finishing. They want to try it
again. As I said, I corrected them when they were not playing
correctly, but the rules did not answer completely some of there
questions and I might have answered wrong from my memory of how things
have been explained.

How much detail do you want in these results?

Robert Schroeder

[Ian D Wilson]

Bob, thanks for the feedback, comments below: --- On Sat, 23/7/11, Bob <Hza...@aol.com> wrote:

From: Bob <Hza...@aol.com> Subject: playtest results of recent game To: "1858 playtest discussion" <1858-playtes...@googlegroups.com> Date: Saturday, 23 July, 2011, 14:07

Ian, et al., >Just played a game with some more experienced players, but who not >played 1858 before.  I gave them the rules beforehand as well as the >strategy guide. They found the rules hard to follow and we stopped >numerous times to make sure we were playing right.  I took a back seat >(not teaching them, but having them figure things out and correcting >where necessary.  Here is the gist of it: >Privates:  The concept of track laying was novel, but they immediately >wanted to know how they got trains.  (ie., they were thinking of >minors in other games) and who payed for terrain.  When they are used >to start a company, had initial problem figuring out how much money >went into the company.

The privates in 1858 are a bit like minors in other games - but they still pay a fixed revenue. How you start a company with a private - and how it is capitalised - does take a little to get used to.

>No real train rush - the wounding of trains and when they are >eliminated seemed to make it predictable. One player was able to get 3 >permanent trains without any problem.  The other two only had one >each, and was going to have to withhold to get a 2nd.

It is rare to get caught trainless in 1858, although running one wounded train will rarely advance your share price. Getting one permanent train should be easy, but getting two is harder.

>The south would benefit from a port.

Where exactly were you thinking? Andalucia (Seville, Cordoba etc) already has plenty of cities.

>The province idea was difficult to get across.  Examples in the rules >would have helped.

Good idea.

>What exactly are the home hexes of a private.  Is it indeed each and >every hex that makes up the private?

Yes. I guess some examples may be needed in the rules.

>Some discussion on whether Madrid should have a 4th spot in the gray >tile.

I have already given this some thought but have rejected the 4th slot because: a) historically, only 3 majors had bases in Madrid (MZA, N, & W) b) game-play - presently you have to (over-)bid to get a Madrid token. With a fourth slot, you could get a token simply by the good fortune of going next after somebody buys the first grey train.

>They saw no need to even start narrow gauge track/buy narrow gauge >trains.

I found the same reluctance with players here in the UK - a couple of demonstrations changed their minds!

>The winning person got the upper hand in the initial auction.  Split >was 5-5-7, so he was able to get one of his companies to 90% by >merging. He was also able to get a couple of the green privates and >able to use these to get to 80% of his other company.  His conclusion >is this is indeed an auction style game where 'he who wins the auction >wins the game'.

Like all games with a big auction at the start, it is fairly critical to get it right. I find that the game isn't normally decided in the initial auction, but it is quite possible to lose if you get it wrong. However, if all your opponents get it wrong...

>Time prevented us from completely finishing.  They want to try it >again.  As I said, I corrected them when they were not playing >correctly, but the rules did not answer completely some of there >questions and I might have answered wrong from my memory of how things >have been explained.

This forum is also for your rules queries.

>How much detail do you want in these results?

As much as you like. I'm particularly interested in: a) rules ambiguities b) map balance c) tile mix but any comments/experiences are also welcome. >Robert Schroeder Ian D

[Bob]

Ian,

another playtest, new stuff:

> a) rules ambiguities
1) Under Selling Stock, the rules say, if a director sells stock, the
Company's stock price drops one box. Stock Market is a horizontal
one, so should say, moves one left.
2) Clarification on yellow tile quantities needs to be put in. It it
meant to be an unlimited quantity of all yellow track including cites/
towns, or just the track? The first means I never have to settle for
a straight city when I want a gentle curve. The second means I have
to think ahead of what track I need.
3) When you have the value of a wounded train, do you round up or
down.

> b) map balance
Portugal and the NW area still seems weak. The South is strong and
definitely an area of token wars. Barcelona is also extremely strong,
but does not have much in the way of token wars. The SE is also weak,
but perhaps that is intended.

> c) tile mix
See comment in the rules above.

> but any comments/experiences are also welcome.

1) No real train rush. Main comment coming out of this was, if I want
a very gentle game, that moves along and no real train rush, then this
is the game. Is this what was meant?
2) The NW still doesn't get much narrow gauge building, unless one
player dominates it and gets the green privates. The south was
completely built up due to the double gauge cities and yet no one
bought a narrow gauge train as the price between them at HIGH levels,
isn't much ($100) and for that price, players wanted the extra city.
So, need to drop the price of the high end.

Robert Schroeder

On Jul 23, 4:44 pm, Ian D Wilson <ianwilson...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Bob, thanks for the feedback, comments below:
>

> --- On Sat, 23/7/11, Bob <Hzar...@aol.com> wrote:

[Ian D Wilson]

Comments below:

--- On Mon, 15/8/11, Bob <Hza...@aol.com> wrote: >another playtest, new stuff: > a) rules ambiguities >1)  Under Selling Stock, the rules say, if a director sells stock, the >Company's stock price drops one box.  Stock Market is a horizontal >one, so should say, moves one left.

What the rules say is "...the Company's stock price drops one space..." i.e. the price drops in value (left, right, up, down are relative depending where you are sitting).

>2)  Clarification on yellow tile quantities needs to be put in.  It it >meant to be an unlimited quantity of all yellow track including cites/ >towns, or just the track?  The first means I never have to settle for >a straight city when I want a gentle curve.  The second means I have >to think ahead of what track I need.

All yellow tiles are unlimited (but yes, it is ambiguous).

>3)  When you have the value of a wounded train, do you round up or >down.

Down, sort of. You divide by the number of shares (to determine the income per share) and then round down. For example, if a company runs a wounded train for 110/2 = 55: a) 5-share pays 11/share, b)10-share pays 5/share (the remaining 5 goes to the company), c) 20-share pays 2/share (with 15 to the company).

> b) map balance >Portugal and the NW area still seems weak. The South is strong and >definitely an area of token wars.  Barcelona is also extremely strong, >but does not have much in the way of token wars.  The SE is also weak, >but perhaps that is intended.

The NW is weak - look at a map of Spain & you'll see why. Portugal is probably my fifth choice of place to start - you should bid lower on the two privates there. If you start a company in Portugal, make it a priority to get a token somewhere better ASAP (e.g. Seville isn't far from Lisbon). Barcelona and Cordoba-Seville are the best places to run H-trains, but tend to be less good with E-trains (when Madrid is best). The Valencia-Murcia area is also weak but is close to both Barcelona and Cordoba et al. The NE is average, and a good area for early narrow-gauge.

> but any comments/experiences are also welcome. >1) No real train rush.  Main comment coming out of this was, if I want >a very gentle game, that moves along and no real train rush, then this >is the game.  Is this what was meant?

The trains aren't as sedate as 1861, but nothing like a fierce as 1830. It depends on the number of players, and on group-think. If everyone is determined to get two permanent trains/company, then the pace can be rather slow; but if everyone panics as the permanent trains loom into view and dozens of shares hit the pool...

>2) The NW still doesn't get much narrow gauge building, unless one >player dominates it and gets the green privates.

Most games I've played don't have much narrow gauge in the NW. Players buy the privates to merge into their other company(s) and so need a broad-gauge connection. It needs a NE company building narrow into the NW.

> The south was >completely built up due to the double gauge cities and yet no one >bought a narrow gauge train as the price between them at HIGH levels, >isn't much ($100) and for that price, players wanted the extra city. >So, need to drop the price of the high end.

At least one station on a 7E run is only worth 50. A 6M should have little difficulty finding 5 dot-towns (M-trains count the dots but they don't count towards the train-number, E-trains have to skip dots). More importantly, a 6M being slightly cheaper can mean you get it a round earlier and that's a powerful incentive (4 runs with a 6M is often better than 3 with a 7E).   Ian D