Re: The Mystery of the Blue Train, and other stories
JC Lawrence
On 25 Feb 2012, at 05:35 , Steve Thomas wrote:
> I went ro play with the Kentish Mob last night, and we had a 6-hander. Most of us had played 18FR-RCE before, and some even claimed to have remembered doing so. Raw scores were (approx) Tony 7800, PeterU 6800, Jon 6400, me 6100, Lyndon 5900, PeterE 5000. However, Tony left at the start of the last set of ORs, and Peter and Peter while we were packing away, so those of us left fined them loads of money to put us up the order.
A fine tradition.
> We played as if the end of the game was triggered by a 12k bank breaking--my fault for not reading the rules carefully enough. As it happened, this occurred at the same time as the true end game; at the end of the second round of a triple, a company bought a grey train, and in the third all companies bought one (except for one shuffle). We then had a stock round and a quad. So we had two sets of rounds in which at least one company owned a grey train.
How often did the foreigners take two trains (last of a rank and first of the next) instead of just one?
Did any companies buy and run rusted trains? How many? What was the largest rusted train bought?
Did any companies move their station markers in gray phase? Was this significant?
How many companies got a stock price past the column footed with $101? Did any companies approach a $500 stock value?
What was the balance of single versus double trains bought?
Were any double trains cast down to singles as train limits fell?
Any yellow companies?
What did the VdL private company sell for in the private auction?
Was the VdL bought in as a 2T in the first OR?
What was the range of pars for the companies over the course of the game? Specifically, were the blue and brown pars used?
If any companies floated in brown phase, did they head straight backwards for the yellow?
Which were the strongest early companies? Strongest late companies?
> Some rules issues (based on the edition dated 8 Feb 2012).
>
> It isn't 100% clear that the yellow and brown starting prices on the stock chart aren't in the yellow and brown zones, and therefore eligible for special treatment.
>
> If a player is on certificate limit, I assume he's allowed to buy a non-counting share. This isn't what is said in 7.6 bullet 4.
>
> If a player goes over certificate limit after he's had a turn in a stock round (because someone steals a presidency off him) I assume he must fix the problem at his first opportunity. 7.6 bullet 5 says otherwise. And if a player is over limit but all his certificates are unsellable, selling shares is both compulsory and forbidden.
>
> 7.2 bullet 3 point 3 says "from the bank" -- it presumably means to the bank.
>
> The rules don't tell us how to run TGVs. We assumed as 1830 diesels.
>
> 11.2 bullet 2 says "in brown phase"; presumably "or later" should be there. And if a company avails itself of the opportunity to lay a brown tile on bare map, we presumed that it must still pay any terrain costs, which is not what is said.
>
> If a company elects to wait until the blue phase has started and buy in the Val de Loire, can it turn it into a 2-train that never rusts? That's what 10.2 para 5 seems to say.
>
> There was much scoffing at the pointlessness of 7.2 bullet 2 point 3 (about diddling the running order of companies in a stack at the bottom of a column of the stock chart).
>
> And on an unrelated note, the IPO hadn't been updated to reflect the new company names.
All your assumptions were correct. I'll hit the rules to address shortly. (And in that case with the rules as written the VdL's 2T would rust at the start of tray phase as that rusts all trains -- properly of course the 2T should insta-rust if bought in in that way in blue phase or later)
> We spent about 6.5 hours on the game, including rules explanations and the like. The last set of rounds took quite a while, as counting up Diesel routes running over much of the map is quite time-consuming. And the game is a little (well, a lot) crowded with six players, especially with the Mob's general ethos that deals are for wimps.
Any track tile shortages?
Were all the company tokens placed? If not, how many were left?
Was substantial track building/route development still taking place in the last set of ORs? Were the diesel routes changing substantially from OR-to-OR?
How large were your diesel runs?
And lastly the subjective bits:
Anything of note or interest that you'd like to call out about the game or your session?
Any problems with the design?
Was the game interesting?
Would you play it again?
-- JCL
Steve Thomas
> JC wrote:
>> How often did the foreigners take two trains (last of a rank and first of the next) instead of just one?
>
> We didn't take notes, and I am therefore relying on memory. They certainly took yellow/green, and I think green/blue and brown/red.
Wobbly memory is more than good enough. Not to belabour the obvious, but the more doubles the foreigners take, the faster the trains move and the harder it is to justify their purchase. If the trains move at top speed through the foreigners, none of the non-permanents will pay off their purchase cost. If the trains move somewhat more slowly, the double trains can become blessedly wonderful.
>> Did any companies buy and run rusted trains? How many? What was the largest rusted train bought?
>
> Yes. About half the companies had a spare yellow train; there was one green one also. The majority got it in the turn they bought their grey train. They were already dipping into pocket for the grey train, so just added 125 to the bill. My Etat bought a yellow train in the penultimate round, after scraping some port income together.
Rightio. I trust you remembered that as rusted trains do not satisfy the requirement to own a train, they cannot be bought with presidential contributions?
>> Did any companies move their station markers in gray phase? Was this significant?
>
> No--they were mostly broke after buying their last trains, and withholding seemed wrong.
Locally this tends to be a function of how quickly the companies come out (and thus indirectly, pool shares) and how many port tokens were consolidated into a single company. Companies with port tokens tend to be happy to helpfully move a station marker so as to simplify other's route-counting challenges.
>> How many companies got a stock price past the column footed with $101? Did any companies approach a $500 stock value?
>
> None and no. Best price was 140 or 149.
Unless I'm mis-guessing where that 140/149 company was on the stock market, it was past the 101 column, and thus well into the section of the stock market with significant stock appreciation (stock appreciation jumps from middling single digits to well into the teens and approaches 20% past the 101 column). How many companies get into that range, and what the players do to get them there or to slow them down once in that range is a core interest for me.
>> What was the balance of single versus double trains bought?
>
> Most of the yellows were doubles. Greens, about 50:50. Mostly singles after that.
Ahh. What were your starting pars? $73 has the benefit of usually being able to afford both a double yellow and a double green.
Also, did you have much in the way of presidential sell-downs (under 50%)?
>> Was the VdL bought in as a 2T in the first OR?
>
> No. Its owner couldn't float a company until a few rounds into the game, and it was used to buy the 6th share of a company.
Did players cooperate to float a company in the first SR? There can be willing interest to buy the VdL from a non-president in OR1 if the shares play out right.
>> What was the range of pars for the companies over the course of the game? Specifically, were the blue and brown pars used?
>
> The last four were blue. I think there were three at 94 and the others yellow.
Ahh, that capital starvation explains the trains.
>> Which were the strongest early companies? Strongest late companies?
>
> PLM and Etat started early==PLM ran for a lot more. At the end, OU had the highest price, and Etat had the highest earnings.
Nod. Lots of double track builds by the OU? It tends to need it to get the early track established unless it has a generous friend.
>> Any track tile shortages?
>
> We could have done with more plain green track (especially #25, 26, 27, 28, and 29). At the end there was a fair bit of upgrading green to brown to free up needed tiles. There was a comment that some of the "fancy stuff" (#624 etc.) safely could have been omitted to make way for such track. Someone needed a second #44 and had to make do with a #45/46 and some yellows.
Funny. Interesting. I usually hear about one or two green simples coming up painfully short, not five different tiles, with the specifics on which tiles are painful varying widely from game to game. #23/#24 and #28/#29 are almost always popular shortages (ahem), with #25 popping into view now and then (and usually being huge when it does). #26/#27 has come up, but not frequently, and it has usually been at the level of inconvenience rather than game constricting.
FWLIW I often see #624 and #30/#31 used around eastern and northern Paris as players try and setup or prevent routes from hitting Paris multiple times. Not every game to be sure, but more than enough to notice.
>> Was substantial track building/route development still taking place in the last set of ORs? Were the diesel routes changing substantially from OR-to-OR?
>
> Yes, though it had just about died down by the last round. (That it was almost 1am might have been a constraint.) The basic routes were fairly similar round to round, though later upgrades added more cities to the loop. My Etat ran Brest-Le Havre-Paris-Paris-Bordeaux-Toulouse-Grenoble-Avignon-StEtienne-Dijon-Geneve-Strasbourg-Metz-Lille-Bruxelles. Plus a 2+2 Lyon-Dijon and a couple of dits.
Wowzers. A lack of tokens on the board can certainly make for huge diesel runs and that's right up there.
>> Any problems with the design?
>
> Like 1830 the start is rather tight with six players, and most players are going to end up with a single company and that takes much of the point of 18xx away.
Was their much manipulation of cash at the end of SRs in order to secure better priority?
> The sudden lurch from non-grey to grey is a bit disconcerting.
I suspect that the French on the Maginot Line may have said something similar as the German tourists traversed Belgium.
> Counting up big Diesel runs through spaghetti track can be a bit time-consuming. If we'd managed to put down more tokens this problem might have been less severe.
Aye.
>> Was the game interesting?
>
> Yes.
<sigh of relief>
Thanks Steve.
-- JCL
JC Lawrence
-- JCL (mobile)
> --
> 1843-playtest-discussion: http://groups.google.com/group/1843-playtest-discussion
>
Steve Thomas
> I trust you remembered that as rusted trains do not satisfy the
> requirement to own a train, they cannot be bought with
> presidential contributions?
Indeed. However, if we're in the grey phase and a company has no train and
at least 125 in cash, it can buy a rusty yellow train for 125 and then turn
to its president for the money to make up the 900 for the grey train.
> Also, did you have much in the way of presidential sell-downs (under 50%)?
Etat and PLM ended up on 30% (I think spread 3-2-2-1-1-1) and 40%
presidencies respectively.
> Did players cooperate to float a company in the first SR?
No.
>> There was a comment that some of the "fancy stuff" (#624
>> etc.) safely could have been omitted >
> FWLIW I often see #624 and #30/#31 used around eastern and
> northern Paris as players try and setup or prevent routes from
> hitting Paris multiple times.
We did end up with a #627 and a #629 next to each other between Paris and
Lille. However, these arose because a shortage of wanted green tiles led to
some rather roundabout track builds.
> Was their much manipulation of cash at the end of SRs in order to secure
> better priority?
Oops! We played with traditional seating (left of last dealer gets the
priority, and clockwise from there). My fault again for lack of care in
reading the rules; I had only dipped into them to investigate what the new
components did, and assumed the rest was "just like 1830". In my defence I
can point to the lack of seating order cards and the presence of a priority
deal card; had there been the former I would almost certainly have wondered
what they were for.
--
Steve Thomas maisn...@btinternet.com
JC Lawrence
>> I trust you remembered that as rusted trains do not satisfy the
>> requirement to own a train, they cannot be bought with
>> presidential contributions?
>
> Indeed. However, if we're in the grey phase and a company has no train and at least 125 in cash, it can buy a rusty yellow train for 125 and then turn to its president for the money to make up the 900 for the grey train.
Exactly.
>> Was their much manipulation of cash at the end of SRs in order to secure better priority?
>
> Oops! We played with traditional seating (left of last dealer gets the priority, and clockwise from there). My fault again for lack of care in reading the rules; I had only dipped into them to investigate what the new components did, and assumed the rest was "just like 1830". In my defence I can point to the lack of seating order cards and the presence of a priority deal card; had there been the former I would almost certainly have wondered what they were for.
Oh buggeration. I forgot to put the damn things in the art. Fix coming RSN.
>
-- JCL (mobile)
JC Lawrence
I've just posted a player number card file and the updated VdL private art to the server (5/6 player and no more Priority card). There are two sets of player number cards, one rather decoratively thematic and perhaps impractical, and the other rather plain but certainly functional.
-- JCL
Dave Berry
Dave.
JC Lawrence
--<cut>--
• The stock market consists of six regions:
1. A brown section in the lower left corner.
– Multiple stock certificates of companies with stock price markers are in the brown section may be bought in a single stock round action (see [sub:Buying-shares]).
– Players may own more than 60% of companies with stock price markers in the brown section (see [sub:Buying-shares]).
– Stock certificates of companies with stock price markers in the brown section do not count against certificate limit (see [sub:Certificate-limit]).
2. An orange section beside the brown section in the lower left corner:
– Players may own more than 60% of companies with stock price markers in the orange section (see [sub:Buying-shares]).
– Stock certificates of companies with stock price markers in the brown section do not count against certificate limit (see [sub:Certificate-limit]).
3. A yellow section beside the orange section in the lower left corner:
– Stock certificates of companies with stock price markers in the brown section do not count against certificate limit (see [sub:Certificate-limit]).
4. A large body of white stock price boxes differentiated only by value and with no special rules.
5. A diagonal line of yellow, green, blue and brown boxes with red outlines that mark possible par prices for newly floated companies (see [sub:Starting-or-floating] and [sub:Game-Phases]).
6. A stock price of 500fr with a blue background.
– The game ends if a stock price marker reaches 500fr (see [sub:Game-end]).
• Public companies have a stock price which is tracked on the stock market with a stock price marker.
• When a public company is parred, its stock price marker is placed on the matching location on the stock market (see [sub:Starting-or-floating]).
• Company stock price markers move in well defined ways (see [sub:Stock-price-movement]).
--<cut>--
-- JCL
> --
> 1843-playtest-discussion: http://groups.google.com/group/1843-playtest-discussion
Dave Berry
Dave.
On 14/03/2012 01:01, JC Lawrence wrote:
Possibly, but I think there's a familiarity value in tradition. While the middle ground is various orange or green, the yellow and brown segments of the stock market (to my mind) have pretty well standardised definitions. The new "Stock Market" section of the addenda reads as below. Does it seem good? --<cut>-- � The stock market consists of six regions: 1. A brown section in the lower left corner. � Multiple stock certificates of companies with stock price markers are in the brown section may be bought in a single stock round action (see [sub:Buying-shares]). � Players may own more than 60% of companies with stock price markers in the brown section (see [sub:Buying-shares]). � Stock certificates of companies with stock price markers in the brown section do not count against certificate limit (see [sub:Certificate-limit]). 2. An orange section beside the brown section in the lower left corner: � Players may own more than 60% of companies with stock price markers in the orange section (see [sub:Buying-shares]). � Stock certificates of companies with stock price markers in the brown section do not count against certificate limit (see [sub:Certificate-limit]). 3. A yellow section beside the orange section in the lower left corner: � Stock certificates of companies with stock price markers in the brown section do not count against certificate limit (see [sub:Certificate-limit]). 4. A large body of white stock price boxes differentiated only by value and with no special rules. 5. A diagonal line of yellow, green, blue and brown boxes with red outlines that mark possible par prices for newly floated companies (see [sub:Starting-or-floating] and [sub:Game-Phases]). 6. A stock price of 500fr with a blue background. � The game ends if a stock price marker reaches 500fr (see [sub:Game-end]). � Public companies have a stock price which is tracked on the stock market with a stock price marker. � When a public company is parred, its stock price marker is placed on the matching location on the stock market (see [sub:Starting-or-floating]). � Company stock price markers move in well defined ways (see [sub:Stock-price-movement]). --<cut>-- -- JCL On 6 Mar 2012, at 10:46 , Dave Berry wrote:
JC Lawrence
-- JCL
On 15 Mar 2012, at 01:13 , Dave Berry wrote:
> The new section seems very clear to me.
>
> Dave.
>
> On 14/03/2012 01:01, JC Lawrence wrote:
>> Possibly, but I think there's a familiarity value in tradition. While the middle ground is various orange or green, the yellow and brown segments of the stock market (to my mind) have pretty well standardised definitions. The new "Stock Market" section of the addenda reads as below. Does it seem good?
>>
>> --<cut>--
>> • The stock market consists of six regions:
>>
>> 1. A brown section in the lower left corner.
>> – Multiple stock certificates of companies with stock price markers are in the brown section may be bought in a single stock round action (see [sub:Buying-shares]).
>> – Players may own more than 60% of companies with stock price markers in the brown section (see [sub:Buying-shares]).
>> – Stock certificates of companies with stock price markers in the brown section do not count against certificate limit (see [sub:Certificate-limit]).
>>
>> 2. An orange section beside the brown section in the lower left corner:
>> – Players may own more than 60% of companies with stock price markers in the orange section (see [sub:Buying-shares]).
>> – Stock certificates of companies with stock price markers in the brown section do not count against certificate limit (see [sub:Certificate-limit]).
>>
>> 3. A yellow section beside the orange section in the lower left corner:
>> – Stock certificates of companies with stock price markers in the brown section do not count against certificate limit (see [sub:Certificate-limit]).
>>
>> 4. A large body of white stock price boxes differentiated only by value and with no special rules.
>>
>> 5. A diagonal line of yellow, green, blue and brown boxes with red outlines that mark possible par prices for newly floated companies (see [sub:Starting-or-floating] and [sub:Game-Phases]).
>>
>> 6. A stock price of 500fr with a blue background.
>> – The game ends if a stock price marker reaches 500fr (see [sub:Game-end]).
>>
>> • Public companies have a stock price which is tracked on the stock market with a stock price marker.
>>
>> • When a public company is parred, its stock price marker is placed on the matching location on the stock market (see [sub:Starting-or-floating]).
>>
>> • Company stock price markers move in well defined ways (see [sub:Stock-price-movement]).