Train 'class' renaming
Phil Davies
haven't played an actual game yet, but naming the train classes
yellow, green, blue, red, brown and electric isn't great if you don't
actually put the name of the class on the train. I would have thought
colourblind people would have trouble discerning the difference
between the green/brown/red/grey colours.
One possible suggestion would be to letter them by class? A/B/C/D/E/F
The only minor annoyance with that is the overloading of the E letter
for E class trains and the 5E/8E trains themselves. Another option
might be to use symbols instead? If you stick with colours I would
certainly recommend putting the text with the colour on the train
cards so they can be matched up that way.
JC Lawrence
JC Lawrence
-- JCL
On 22 Feb 2012, at 23:02 , JC Lawrence wrote:
> I finally got around to running the train images through a colour blindness simulator (http://www.vischeck.com/). It was quickly clear that for the two most common forms of colour blindness, that the green and brown trains were simply not distinguishable by colour. Aaaargh! Thanks for catching this one. I should have known better.
>
> The current train certificates are already rather packed, leaving little room for adding a color name. I'm not keen on making them physically larger, as the charters would have to also grow etc. (The charters are small in order to make fitting on the table easier with the large map and extra companies) I'm also not keen on changing the colors as they so naturally tie to 18xx game phases (especially yellow, green, brown and gray). I assume that in other 18xx the color blind players simply go by the numeric names of the trains? They could do likewise with 1843, but the names are of course much more complex (and smaller on the charters). Hurm. What do you think about annotating the areas on the map where the train supply is placed? Each storage square could be annotated with the colour of the trains held there as well as their various names. I agree it wouldn't be as wonderful as if the trains spelled it out in glorious text, but might it be Good Enough?
>
> Or should I just bite the damned bullet?
>
> I've attached a PNG of the trains for those that may wish to play with the colour blindness simulators.
>
> -- JCL notes that the color bars for the game phases on the charters also don't work for the color blind
>
> <18FR-RCE-Trains-JCL-Letter-new3.png>
>
> On 20 Feb 2012, at 09:02 , Phil Davies wrote:
>
>> Just a suggestion since I've only looked over the components and
>> haven't played an actual game yet, but naming the train classes
>> yellow, green, blue, red, brown and electric isn't great if you don't
>> actually put the name of the class on the train. I would have thought
>> colourblind people would have trouble discerning the difference
>> between the green/brown/red/grey colours.
>>
>> One possible suggestion would be to letter them by class? A/B/C/D/E/F
>> The only minor annoyance with that is the overloading of the E letter
>> for E class trains and the 5E/8E trains themselves. Another option
>> might be to use symbols instead? If you stick with colours I would
>> certainly recommend putting the text with the colour on the train
>> cards so they can be matched up that way.
>>
>> --
>> 1843-playtest-discussion: http://groups.google.com/group/1843-playtest-discussion
>>
>
>
> --
> 1843-playtest-discussion: http://groups.google.com/group/1843-playtest-discussion
Phil Davies
>I assume that in other 18xx the color blind players simply go by the numeric names of the trains? They could do likewise with 1843, but the names are
>of course much more complex (and smaller on the charters).
always gone by the number alone. I know some of the DTG games have
colour coded text on the train cards but I've never seen that as
remotely relevant personally.
I have a friend who has mild red/green colour blindness who I showed
the trains to and she said:
'the orangey background is similar to the green background'
I then asked which one she thought was orange and that was the 5E
class of trains. Why use colours at all? In 18EA Mike is using
letters to separate the different classes of train since each card can
potentially be Freight, Express or Local. The standard rule with
colour safety is don't rely on colour alone to make the distinction
(See Ticket to Ride where all colours have a unique symbol, or
Bejeweled where all jewels have a distinct shape). Letters make
slightly more sense than symbols since it gives people a better shared
vocabulary ('who is buying the first H?' is a more sensible question
than 'who is buying the first squiggly star thing?') and also implies
order and hierarchy, you inherently know that the B trains come after
the A trains.
That said, I appreciate that you would end up with an E class of
trains which is a little confusing when coupled with the *E trains
themselves...
JC Lawrence
On 24 Feb 2012, at 01:42 , Phil Davies wrote:
> On Feb 23, 7:02 am, JC Lawrence <c...@kanga.nu> wrote:
>> I assume that in other 18xx the color blind players simply go by the numeric names of the trains? They could do likewise with 1843, but the names are
>> of course much more complex (and smaller on the charters).
>
> I've not really ever come across colours on trains in any 18xx, I've
> always gone by the number alone.
The problem in this case is that the numeric names are fairly complex. For instance the equivalent of the lowly 2-train is now "2x2 or 3/4, or 2+1", which is quite a mouthful. The larger trains aren't much better, with the 4-train equivalent for instance being the "4/6x2 or 5+2".
> Why use colours at all?
Because the number-names are inordinately complex and long.
> In 18EA Mike is using letters to separate the different classes of train
> since each card can potentially be Freight, Express or Local.
Right, and as you note that then collides with the "E" (express) trains.
> The standard rule with
> colour safety is don't rely on colour alone to make the distinction…
Nod.
> Letters make
> slightly more sense than symbols since it gives people a better shared
> vocabulary ('who is buying the first H?' is a more sensible question
> than 'who is buying the first squiggly star thing?') and also implies
> order and hierarchy, you inherently know that the B trains come after
> the A trains.
While the colours are not in chromatic order (which would have been ideal), they do map naturally to the track phases. Yellow trains come with yellow track, green trains come with free track, brown trains come with brown track, and tray trains come with tray track. FWLIW the colour names sank is facilely here, sufficiently that some of the locals have starting calling other game's trains by their respective colours/phase-mappings.
Ahh well, I have an idea for how to put a text name on the trains without making them too much larger. It will be a bit before I can get that done however.
-- JCL
Dave Berry
My main reasons for doing the trains this way were purely pragmatic. If I want to change the cost of a train between games, or to change when they rust, all I have to do is print a new version of the Engineering Works, rather than print and cut out all the affected trains. Also, it means that I can make the charters quite small.
Anyway, maybe for 1834 you could remove the price and the "Rusted by" from the trains themselves and put them on a train supply chart and on the charters. These are the only places that the trains will be put (unless some end up in the open market), so the information would be quite easy to find. Then you could write the "rusted by xxx" in full.
I hope this helps,
Dave.
P.S. Alternatively, I like the idea of a different symbol for each colour.
--
1843-playtest-discussion: http://groups.google.com/group/1843-playtest-discussion
JC Lawrence
-- JCL (mobile)
Perhaps you could have less information on the train counters altogether? In my own prototype 18xx game, I'm using half-inch square wargame counters for the trains. Each counter has only the train number on it. Other information - the cost, when trains become obsolete - is on the train supply chart (a.k.a. "The Engineering Works"). I plan to also repeat the information on the charters. The counters aren't very pretty but the overall design is functional and uncluttered.
My main reasons for doing the trains this way were purely pragmatic. If I want to change the cost of a train between games, or to change when they rust, all I have to do is print a new version of the Engineering Works, rather than print and cut out all the affected trains. Also, it means that I can make the charters quite small.
Anyway, maybe for 1834 you could remove the price and the "Rusted by" from the trains themselves and put them on a train supply chart and on the charters. These are the only places that the trains will be put (unless some end up in the open market), so the information would be quite easy to find. Then you could write the "rusted by xxx" in full.
I hope this helps,
Dave.
P.S. Alternatively, I like the idea of a different symbol for each colour.
On 23/02/2012 07:02, JC Lawrence wrote:
I finally got around to running the train images through a colour blindness simulator (http://www.vischeck.com/). It was quickly clear that for the two most common forms of colour blindness, that the green and brown trains were simply not distinguishable by colour. Aaaargh! Thanks for catching this one. I should have known better.
The current train certificates are already rather packed, leaving little room for adding a color name. I'm not keen on making them physically larger, as the charters would have to also grow etc. (The charters are small in order to make fitting on the table easier with the large map and extra companies) I'm also not keen on changing the colors as they so naturally tie to 18xx game phases (especially yellow, green, brown and gray). I assume that in other 18xx the color blind players simply go by the numeric names of the trains? They could do likewise with 1843, but the names are of course much more complex (and smaller on the charters). Hurm. What do you think about annotating the areas on the map where the train supply is placed? Each storage square could be annotated with the colour of the trains held there as well as their various names. I agree it wouldn't be as wonderful as if the trains spelled it out in glorious text, but might it be Good Enough?
Or should I just bite the damned bullet?
I've attached a PNG of the trains for those that may wish to play with the colour blindness simulators.
-- JCL notes that the color bars for the game phases on the charters also don't work for the color blind
<mime-attachment.png>
On 20 Feb 2012, at 09:02 , Phil Davies wrote:
Just a suggestion since I've only looked over the components and
haven't played an actual game yet, but naming the train classes
yellow, green, blue, red, brown and electric isn't great if you don't
actually put the name of the class on the train. I would have thought
colourblind people would have trouble discerning the difference
between the green/brown/red/grey colours.
One possible suggestion would be to letter them by class? A/B/C/D/E/F
The only minor annoyance with that is the overloading of the E letter
for E class trains and the 5E/8E trains themselves. Another option
might be to use symbols instead? If you stick with colours I would
certainly recommend putting the text with the colour on the train
cards so they can be matched up that way.
--
1843-playtest-discussion: http://groups.google.com/group/1843-playtest-discussion
----
1843-playtest-discussion: http://groups.google.com/group/1843-playtest-discussion
1843-playtest-discussion: http://groups.google.com/group/1843-playtest-discussion