1812 Bypasses
Dave Berry
1. Has anyone ever built a bypass around
Newcastle, in order to get a N-S route to Berwick
when they don't have a token in Newcastle?
2. Does anyone bother to build to Darlington?
The first option seems theoretically possible but
I suspect most people would be put off by the £60
cost and the four tile lays/upgrades. Owning the
N&C or S&T would reduce these costs, but the
owner of the N&C would be more likely to build
the free route to Carlisle, which the owner of
the S&T is likely to have a marker in Newcastle
anyway. Just possibly, if the S&T private didn't
have the bonus for Newcastle Docks, this build
might be more likely and maybe that could be
boosted further if the S&T got an additional free
build in D7? Would that change be worthwhile or
is this just unlikely ever to happen?
In my last game, I had the S&D private and it
still wasn't worth my while to build to
Darlington. If anything, the free tile lay in
Stockton made the decision to avoid it even
easier. From a sense of vague historicity, I'd
find it nice if the game encouraged the building
of the historical route. At the time, I
suggested making the S&D bonus +20 (the same as
Hull), so that Darlington would be worth more
than a Y city to that company. (I suppose an
alternative would be to make Darlington a dot
town, but that would make the S&D almost worthless.
I realise that both these points are rather trivial. Feel free to ignore them.
Dave.
Scott Petersen
1. Has anyone ever built a bypass around
Newcastle, in order to get a N-S route to Berwick
when they don't have a token in Newcastle?
I also wanted to mention that the most recent batch of component updates are appreciated and I plan to get some more plays in soon. My group only has so much tolerance for prototypes though and we've been testing out four of them (plus my own), so interest comes and goes in waves.
Ian D Wilson
I have seen a Newcastle bypass on occasion, but given Carlisle is only 10 less it rarely seems worth the effort.
I can't see how to make Darlington more interesting. I have seen somebody start with the LN and S&D. Making the S&D give +20 to Darlington seems wrong - it would be too good?
Speaking of bypasses, a recent game (currently running by email) featured a player building a Leeds bypass - with the SAM and NM - to Carlisle. Expensive for the companies, but the NM ran its 3T for £170. (Akin to the MNN building to Siberia.) Other players jumped on the bandwagon, of course.
|
|
|
|
Chris Shaffer
--
Chris
Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
john boocock
hi all
i think that as the S&D was such a pivotal railway, you cannot leave it out of the game, which is set at the dawn of railways.
even though it came into NER ownership quite late, it was always very profitable, and significantly boosted the NER revenue when it merged.
i think the darlington space is sadly misunderstood, and mis-used. although it CAN be bypassed, it should be used by the southern companies to token and make it difficult for northern companies to get a n-s run, and vice versa.
i think it should be a permanent private, like the hull private, and whilst private should control/veto tile placing not only in darlington, but also in the hexes either side. if and when bought in, these powers lapse.
this may be a wee bit drastic, but it would make the n/s bonuses harder to get to.
in the same vein, the west route to carlisle needs the bottom carlisle box removing and replaced by an expensive mountain, to reflect the difficulties and expense of this route.
the n/s bonuses ought to be higher, maybe a little bit higher, to encourage the building of these routes, but also a bit more difficult to achieve.
|
Dave Berry
>I can't see how to make Darlington more
>interesting. I have seen somebody start with the
>LN and S&D. Making the S&D give +20 to
>Darlington seems wrong - it would be too good?
Darlington with the S&D@+20 would be worth £40
initially. This would be equal to Newcastle with
the Wylam, Newcastle Docks with the S&T, Leeds
with the Middleton, or Sheffield with the SR. It
would be £10 less than Hull with the HD, but £10 more than York with the LS.
Connecting the LN or ND to the S&D@+20 would give
an OR2 income of £70 - good, but no higher than a
1G train to Newcastle Port (with the Wylam or
S&T) It is £10 less income than the LM or SAM
connecting to Manchester with their respective
privates, but costs £20 less to lay the
track.from Leeds and £40 less to lay track from Newcastle.
So it would be a good option, but the bounds set
by other options. If a player manages to buy the
S&D@20 and either the Wylam or the Middleton, I
think they'll have a definite advantage. Then
again, I played a game where I started with both
the Newcastle privates and still managed to cock things up!
The main caveat to all this number crunching is
that Darlington's central position may give an
added advantage to the start with the LN or
ND. Currently, the highest income routes for
minors are all at the edge of the map (to
Manchester, to Newcastle Port, or to Hull
Docks). I rather suspect that is intentional
;-). Still, it does make it harder to build a NS
route for a 3 train or 4 train.
Dave.
Ian D
Darlington more interesting in the early game, but it wouldn't stop
people bypassing it later. (This is one of many artifacts of the 18xx
game system - with trains only counting a few cities, players will
inevitably bypass the lower value ones.) I cannot justify making
Darlington more valuable - it was/is much smaller than Leeds/Newcastle
and a less important junction than York.
The problem is that if I give in to this request, we'll soon end up
with all the £40 privates with a £20 (or greater) bonus and all the
minors much the same - and earning too much money, accelerating the
game etc etc. One not unreasonable criticism of 1861 is that the
companies are all much the same - perhaps 1812 should have more
variety?
The peripheral nature of the early routes is partly deliberate.
Initially, the most lucrative trains either ran coal to the ports or
crossed the Pennines to Manchester. Only when bigger/faster trains
became available was the north-south run possible.
Ian D
Chris Shaffer
If the problem is a desire that the historic track to Darlington be built (as expressed by someone earlier in this thread), why not either pre-print the track on the board or have it be an additional track lay granted by a private company?
--
Chris
Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
Dave Berry
well as the point about the central position.
Would the game work if you swapped Darlington and
Stockton, so that the S&D is based in Stockton
and the bypass runs through Darlington?
Dave.
and I see I wAt 20:56 03/08/2009, Ian D wrote:
>There is no doubt that making the S&D give a £20 bonus would make
>Darlington more interesting in the early game, but it wouldn't stop
>people bypassing it later. (This is one of many artifacts of the 18xx
>game system - with trains only counting a few cities, players will
>inevitably bypass the lower value ones.) I cannot justify making
Ian D
and it grew into a medium-size business, it never was in the league of
the NER or Midland. The game is complicated enough, so I don't want to
add in anything like you suggest (such as reserved hexes), or even
allowing the S&D to 'grow up' into a minor (but that gives me an
idea....). The S&D didn't survive until the end of the game (1914?),
like the Hull Docks Company did. (One minor company did survive, but
you haven't complained about it - yet.)
The NER had such a stranglehold over the area north of York that
nobody tried competing - if someone like the Midland had tried, it may
well have chosen to bypass Darlington to reach the real prizes:
Newcastle and the surrounding coalfields.
The cost of the Settle-Carlisle line was £3.5M (about £300M in today's
money) - a colossal sum in those days. But the new high-speed link to
the chunnel, of similar length & complexity of engineering, cost a
mere £5.2B. (The S&C ended up 50% over-budget - there truly is
"nothing new under the sun".) How this £3.5M would translate into
'game-money' is debatable anyway. At £100, it is by far the most
expensive route that regularly gets built in the game. Plus, whichever
company builds it ends up helping other companies - this may be true-
to-life! In conclusion, there may be some need to tweak the north-
south bonus, the values of Carlisle and/or Berwick, and/or the cost of
building to Carlisle(S), but I don't think any of these things are
seriously broken.
See "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settle_and_Carlisle_Railway" for an
interesting summary of the history of the line. Today, Northern Rail
run hourly services between Leeds & Carlisle along the line.
Ian D
On Jul 30, 9:29 am, john boocock <johnl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> hi all
>
> i think that as the S&D was such a pivotal railway, you cannot leave it out of the game, which is set at the dawn of railways.
>
> even though it came into NER ownership quite late, it was always very profitable, and significantly boosted the NER revenue when it merged.
>
> i think the darlington space is sadly misunderstood, and mis-used. although it CAN be bypassed, it should be used by the southern companies to token and make it difficult for northern companies to get a n-s run, and vice versa.
>
> i think it should be a permanent private, like the hull private, and whilst private should control/veto tile placing not only in darlington, but also in the hexes either side. if and when bought in, these powers lapse.
>
> this may be a wee bit drastic, but it would make the n/s bonuses harder to get to.
>
> in the same vein, the west route to carlisle needs the bottom carlisle box removing and replaced by an expensive mountain, to reflect the difficulties and expense of this route.
>
> the n/s bonuses ought to be higher, maybe a little bit higher, to encourage the building of these routes, but also a bit more difficult to achieve.
>
> john b
john boocock
hi ian
i really don't think the game is seriously broken, either.
it plays well, and is speedy for three or four players, finishing in around 2.5 to 3 hours.
you could argue about the values of the privates, but i don't think the tweaks you mention amount to a row of beans, in the total game experience.
i do think to play the game well, you need to start your major at the highest price you can afford, but that is true of so many other 18xx games anyway, and reflects true to life, as well.
those companies with a high share price had it high for a reason, they were good solid paying companies.
has anyone ever won at 1812 with a company that was lowest on the share chart?
|
|
Ian D
major, but didn't win. Admittedly, the other two players had a company
which was only one slot behind. What seems to be more important is to
get more shares in the top companies - with 3 players, for example, to
fill up with 11 of the 30 top shares is much better than any other
combination. If I ever work out an infallible method of getting there,
you'll be the first to whom I won't divulge the secret!
Ian D