Clemens sitution just got stranger

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Clemens sitution just got stranger G-Man 1/9/99 12:00 AM
I was just talking to a friend of mine in Boston and he said that the Red
Sox have asked for MLB to investigate possible tampering in the Clemens
situation from 1996, saying the Jays talked to Clemens before his contract
was up and they will be looking for compensation. It could get really ugly
if the Jays are guilty and they could have to give up cash and a player, not
looking too good. Let's hope this is just Boston's media taking things out
of control again. Look at the article he included in an email to me:

Red Sox are owed in Clemens case
By Will McDonough, Globe Staff, 01/09/99

There has always been a smell to the way Roger Clemens left Boston for
Toronto,
and now the reason for the stench is starting to surface.

Clemens and his agents, the Hendricks brothers, made a deal with Blue Jays
management that was not in accordance with Major League Baseball rules,
which
the league discovered two years after the fact and for which Toronto will be
fined. They signed a side letter to the contract and never filed it with the
American League office or the Players Association, which breaks the rules of
the collective bargaining agreement. The letter, kept secret for two years
but
reported recently in the New York Times, incredibly gave Clemens the right
to
leave Toronto after any of the four years on his contract; the right to
request a trade at any point; the right to approve the team to which he is
traded; and the right to be traded to the Houston Astros if the Hendricks
brothers purchased the team, which was for sale at the time.

The most embarrassing part for baseball is that Paul Beeston, now the No. 2
man in the game under commissioner Bud Selig, made the deal with the
Hendricks
brothers. Beeston was running the Blue Jays then and is a close friend of
Randy Hendricks.

The Red Sox have asked the league to investigate the matter fully, and they
should ask the league to determine whether the Blue Jays were tampering with
Clemens while he was still with Boston. I guarantee they were, and because
they were, the Red Sox are entitled to full compensation.

Just this past Monday, the National Hockey League had the guts to fine the
St.
Louis Blues $1.5 million and a first-round draft choice for tampering with
defenseman Scott Stevens - five years ago. The Blues were making offers to
Stevens while he was still playing for the Devils, and Stevens was forced to
stay in New Jersey when the Devils matched the offer. Only recently did
someone blow the whistle, and the evidence was found in the St. Louis files.

''A lot of shredders are working full-time around the league this week,''
said
Bruins president Harry Sinden. ''Stuff like that has been going on for
years.
We would never become part of it, and I told [assistant general manager]
Mike
O'Connell not to get involved in any way.''

The first thing Selig should do is make Beeston and Blue Jays GM Gord Ash
take
a lie detector test about the Clemens contract. Second, Toronto should be
forced to produce every telephone record for the summer of 1996, the months
immediately before Clemens signed with Toronto - including the home phone
records of Beeston and Ash.

In the spring of '96, Clemens had said he owed everything he had to the Red
Sox and no one had treated him better than club CEO John Harrington. Clemens
had assured the Red Sox that he would talk with them about a new contract
when
the season was over.

However, the odor started to surface in the last week Clemens was in a
Boston
uniform. He took his name plate off his locker, cleaned out his locker, and
announced he was not going to pitch the final game of the season, as
scheduled. Common sense tells you that no player does that unless he knows
he
has a deal somewhere else.

But here is the most telling part. After several teams, including the Blue
Jays, met with the Hendricks brothers in Houston, they refused to meet with
Harrington to get a Boston offer and shortly thereafter announced Clemens
was
going to Toronto.

The Clemens group knew there was no way Boston would agree to the illegal
side
letter that would allow Clemens an out after every season. Therefore, the
letter gave the Blue Jays an unfair advantage over the Red Sox, and only a
fool would think that Randy Hendricks and Beeston did not talk about Clemens
going to Toronto while he was still playing with Boston.

And that is tampering.

To start with, Boston should be compensated in full for whatever Selig
determines is the value of a player who has had two of the greatest seasons
of
any pitcher ever since joining Toronto.

The Clemens contract should be voided. Toronto should be fined. Beeston and
Ash should be fined. The Hendricks brothers should be decertified as agents
by
Major League Baseball and forced to give up whatever compensation they got
for
doing the illegal Clemens deal.

Major League Baseball will try to duck this responsibility because it is so
embarrassing. It will say that Clemens was a free agent, and therefore,
Boston
should not get compensation. It will try not to have Beeston and Ash undergo
a
lie detector test administered by an independent company and will try to
avoid
pursuing the telephone records.

But the Red Sox should keep pressing and go to court, if necessary, to
subpoena the Toronto records and get depositions from those involved. This
sleazy stuff has gone on for years in all major league sports, and this
would
be a great way to scare some teams from doing it in the future.

You can bet the shredders are working in Toronto this weekend

Clemens sitution just got stranger Ryan Day 1/10/99 12:00 AM
G-Man (chis...@nbnet.nb.ca) wrote:

> Red Sox are owed in Clemens case
> By Will McDonough, Globe Staff, 01/09/99

> There has always been a smell to the way Roger Clemens left Boston for
> Toronto,
> and now the reason for the stench is starting to surface.
        What, McDonough doesn't believe in deoderant or something?

> Clemens and his agents, the Hendricks brothers, made a deal with Blue Jays
> management that was not in accordance with Major League Baseball rules,
> which
> the league discovered two years after the fact and for which Toronto will be
> fined. They signed a side letter to the contract and never filed it with the
> American League office or the Players Association, which breaks the rules of
> the collective bargaining agreement.
        Uhm, no it didn't -- it just doesn't have anything to do with the
rules.  Selig just said that side agreements aren't going to be enforced
by the league -- nothing about them being wrong.

 The letter, kept secret for two years
> but
> reported recently in the New York Times, incredibly gave Clemens the right
> to
> leave Toronto after any of the four years on his contract; the right to
> request a trade at any point; the right to approve the team to which he is
> traded; and the right to be traded to the Houston Astros if the Hendricks
> brothers purchased the team, which was for sale at the time.
        That's more of the letter than I've heard of.  Does McDonough
actually have a copy of the letter, or is he trying out his psychic powers?


> The Red Sox have asked the league to investigate the matter fully, and they
> should ask the league to determine whether the Blue Jays were tampering with
> Clemens while he was still with Boston. I guarantee they were, and because
> they were, the Red Sox are entitled to full compensation.
        Well, if McDonough says the Jays tampered, then hey, throw 'em out
of the league.  Who needs due process or anything...

> The first thing Selig should do is make Beeston and Blue Jays GM Gord Ash
> take
> a lie detector test about the Clemens contract. Second, Toronto should be
> forced to produce every telephone record for the summer of 1996, the months
> immediately before Clemens signed with Toronto - including the home phone
> records of Beeston and Ash.
        Gee, here's a radical idea: How 'bout Boston comes up with some
proof that goes beyond McDonough's ridiculous innuendo before Toronto has
to come up with any sort of defence.

> In the spring of '96, Clemens had said he owed everything he had to the Red
> Sox and no one had treated him better than club CEO John Harrington. Clemens
> had assured the Red Sox that he would talk with them about a new contract
> when
> the season was over.
        Wow.  A player changes his mind/lies/doubletalks.  Damn, this guy
has a nose for news.  Woodward and Bernstein, move over.  (for that
matter, Hunter S. Thompson, move over... though for a slightly different
reason)

> However, the odor started to surface in the last week Clemens was in a
> Boston
> uniform. He took his name plate off his locker, cleaned out his locker, and
> announced he was not going to pitch the final game of the season, as
> scheduled. Common sense tells you that no player does that unless he knows
> he
> has a deal somewhere else.
        What common sense is that?  Maybe he just made up his mind that he
didn't want to play for Boston.

> But here is the most telling part. After several teams, including the Blue
> Jays, met with the Hendricks brothers in Houston, they refused to meet with
> Harrington to get a Boston offer and shortly thereafter announced Clemens
> was
> going to Toronto.
        So Roger Clemens is a doubletalking swine.  We knew that already.

> The Clemens group knew there was no way Boston would agree to the illegal
> side
> letter that would allow Clemens an out after every season. Therefore, the
> letter gave the Blue Jays an unfair advantage over the Red Sox, and only a
> fool would think that Randy Hendricks and Beeston did not talk about Clemens
> going to Toronto while he was still playing with Boston.
        WTF???!!!  An "unfair advantage?" Unless the Red Sox are not in
possession of pens with which to sign documents, the Jays didn't exactly
have any sort of advantage there.  They were willing to go to greater
lengths to get Roger Clemens to pitch for them.  That's it.
        And where is he drawing this tampering thing?  It's not like the
contract was signed the day after the season -- it was, as I recall,
December, which is more than enough time to come to an agreement like that.

> And that is tampering.
        It has about as much in common with tampering as this drivel has
to do with journalism.

> To start with, Boston should be compensated in full for whatever Selig
> determines is the value of a player who has had two of the greatest seasons
> of
> any pitcher ever since joining Toronto.
        Bud Selig is supposed to judge talent?  Sure, I can go with that...

> Major League Baseball will try to duck this responsibility because it is so
> embarrassing. It will say that Clemens was a free agent, and therefore,
> Boston
> should not get compensation. It will try not to have Beeston and Ash undergo
> a
> lie detector test administered by an independent company and will try to
> avoid
> pursuing the telephone records.
        Uhm, see, MLB doesn't have any obligation to do anything.
Assuming MLB rules aren't *completely* alien to this planet, there's the
little matter of innocent until proven guilty - let the Sox try to make
this gibberish stand up in court before the Jays have to waste time
defending themselves.

> But the Red Sox should keep pressing and go to court, if necessary, to
> subpoena the Toronto records and get depositions from those involved. This
> sleazy stuff has gone on for years in all major league sports, and this
> would
> be a great way to scare some teams from doing it in the future.
> You can bet the shredders are working in Toronto this weekend
        
        This is one of the most ludicrous, stupendously horrible pieces of
tripe I have ever read.  The man makes Richard Griffin look like Oscar
Wilde.  Leaving aside for a moment the fact that he writes like an
illiterate heroin addict, I'd hope that he has a good lawyer -- this piece
is downright libellous.  (at least under Canadian Law... dunno about US laws)
        This is one of the things that makes me wonder why I want to be
professionally associated with these people.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                Ryan Day
                        J-Skool III, Carleton University  
                      http://chat.carleton.ca/~rmday
        "After man takes care of his basic animal needs, he indulges in a
         behaviour not imposed by nature but invented by him. Emerging as
      it does from his imagination, can we not then call all invented human
         life -- this building, literature, freeways, wars -- a fiction?
        If so, television news must be theatre, and this nuclear accident
                    just one more scene in the human drama."
                                                -- the Newsroom

Clemens sitution just got stranger Hack Crack 1/10/99 12:00 AM

G-Man wrote in message <778s01$jtf$1...@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca>...

>I was just talking to a friend of mine in Boston and he said that the Red
>Sox have asked for MLB to investigate possible tampering in the Clemens
>situation from 1996, saying the Jays talked to Clemens before his contract
>was up and they will be looking for compensation. It could get really ugly
>if the Jays are guilty and they could have to give up cash and a player,
not
>looking too good. Let's hope this is just Boston's media taking things out
>of control again. Look at the article he included in an email to me:


Say it aint so.
What is going on here, for years the Jays were a model team no controversy.
This off-season look at it TJ the damn liar, Roger and his
contract,Quantrill now this.
What the hell is going on?

Clemens sitution just got stranger scott....@dlcwest.com 1/10/99 12:00 AM
All Snipped

What exactly does the existance of a side agreement have to do with
Tampering????

Its rediculus, did clemens talk about a trade to Toronto in his last year in
Boston?? If he did I never heard it.

The tuth is that Toronto getting Clemens was huge shock to the baseball world,
and since no-one in baseball can keep a secret to save their life, its clear
that nothing between Clemens and Toronto happened.

If there was any tampering here, it would have been Texas or Houston
encoureging Clemens to ask for a trade last season. There is at least minimal
cicumstancial evidence of that.

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Clemens sitution just got stranger azathoth 1/10/99 12:00 AM

>
> The Red Sox have asked the league to investigate the matter fully, and
they
> should ask the league to determine whether the Blue Jays were tampering
with
> Clemens while he was still with Boston. I guarantee they were, and
because
> they were, the Red Sox are entitled to full compensation.
>
>
> The first thing Selig should do is make Beeston and Blue Jays GM Gord Ash
> take
> a lie detector test about the Clemens contract. Second, Toronto should be
> forced to produce every telephone record for the summer of 1996, the
months
> immediately before Clemens signed with Toronto - including the home phone
> records of Beeston and Ash.
>
This is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out of line.  McDonough doesn't offer one shred
of solid evidence for his speculation, and in any event, whatever
transpired doesn't come close to falling in the category of a criminal
case, so his insistence on lie detector tests and phone records is so
invasive, it borders on fascism.


Clemens sitution just got stranger Scott E. Kuehner 1/10/99 12:00 AM

G-Man <chis...@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message
news:778s01$jtf$1@garnet.nbnet.nb.ca...

>I was just talking to a friend of mine in Boston and he said that the Red
>Sox have asked for MLB to investigate possible tampering in the Clemens
>situation from 1996, saying the Jays talked to Clemens before his contract
>was up and they will be looking for compensation. It could get really ugly
>if the Jays are guilty and they could have to give up cash and a player,
not
>looking too good. Let's hope this is just Boston's media taking things out
>of control again. Look at the article he included in an email to me:

The Jays might have to give up a player?  OK, let's give 'em Clemens.

SEK

Clemens sitution just got stranger Steve Sterling 1/10/99 12:00 AM
>Say it aint so.
>What is going on here, for years the Jays were a model team no controversy.
>This off-season look at it TJ the damn liar, Roger and his
>contract,Quantrill now this.
>What the hell is going on?


Its called Pat Gillick left.  I loved that man!  I gave him the best years
of my life.  Okay, well I didn't but you get the hint.

But you also have to realize that McDonough is an idiot.  I've always found
him to be full of shit.  Everyone in Boston is still hurting that Clemens
left and they're being rather large babies about it.  That's the impression
I get anyways.

Clemens sitution just got stranger, or McDoughnot need a pill scott....@dlcwest.com 1/11/99 12:00 AM
What he is saying is pure parinoia.

Mr McDoughnut, you should talk to your doctor, several great new antipsycotics
have been released.


In article <01be3cdc$a57480a0$69c5acce@pig>,

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Clemens sitution just got stranger Sheldon Rowan 1/11/99 12:00 AM
>But you also have to realize that McDonough is an idiot.  I've always found
>him to be full of shit.  Everyone in Boston is still hurting that Clemens
>left and they're being rather large babies about it.  That's the impression
>I get anyways.
>
>
   The statement that McDonough is an idiot is vastly understated.  I have
read every article Will has written pertaining to Clemens and the Blue
Jays and it is clear that he is spiteful, malicious, and supremely stupid.
But it isn't completely personal; he rarely has said anything nice about
the Red Sox either.  While many Sox fans in Boston are pissed off at Roger
Clemens, the majority support him and have tremendous respect for his
accomplishments.  Then again, you wouldn't know that if you believed what
McDonough wrote.  I wouldn't worry about this article and many other ASBTB
contributors have already demonstrated the flaws in his arguments.  Geez,
what a creep, eh?

Clemens sitution just got stranger T, Knox 1/11/99 12:00 AM

Sheldon Rowan wrote in message <77c2as$jqr$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu>...

ever wonder how pissed Boston fans and their related writers would be if
Roger sucked that last two years???

Clemens sitution just got stranger Dave Till 1/11/99 12:00 AM
In article <7nfm2.77027$c8.37...@hme2.newscontent-01.sprint.ca>,

Steve Sterling <steves...@sprint.ca> wrote:
>>What is going on here, for years the Jays were a model team no controversy.
>>This off-season look at it TJ the damn liar, Roger and his
>>contract,Quantrill now this.
>>What the hell is going on?
>
>Its called Pat Gillick left.

As I recall, the Jays weren't exactly a model team in the Jimy
Williams era.  They just didn't get as much bad publicity.
--
--Dave Till, programmer/writer/web page creator/occasional performer/big geek
email: davet (at) uunet.ca                        WWW: http://www.net/~davet/
Disclaimer:  don't blame my employers for my opinions, or me for outages.
The correct response to "Have a nice day" is "Thanks, but I have other plans."

Clemens sitution just got stranger Steve Sterling 1/11/99 12:00 AM
>>>What is going on here, for years the Jays were a model team no
controversy.
>>>This off-season look at it TJ the damn liar, Roger and his
>>>contract,Quantrill now this.
>>>What the hell is going on?
>>
>>Its called Pat Gillick left.
>
>As I recall, the Jays weren't exactly a model team in the Jimy
>Williams era.  They just didn't get as much bad publicity.


True, but Gillick didn't make all the decisions during the Jimy Williams
era.  He didn't yet have the control over the team that he had during the
Cito-era.  (Is it okay to say the C-word?)

Clemens sitution just got stranger Dave Till 1/12/99 12:00 AM
In article <H9Am2.78619$c8.38...@hme2.newscontent-01.sprint.ca>,

Steve Sterling <steves...@sprint.ca> wrote:
>>As I recall, the Jays weren't exactly a model team in the Jimy
>>Williams era.  They just didn't get as much bad publicity.
>
>True, but Gillick didn't make all the decisions during the Jimy Williams
>era.  He didn't yet have the control over the team that he had during the
>Cito-era.  (Is it okay to say the C-word?)

Unless my memory is playing tricks on me, Gillick gained complete
control of the on-field club operations after Peter Bavasi left,
which was in about 1981 or so.  He and Paul Beeston were named
vice presidents, with Beeston in charge of the financial side
and Gillick in charge of the baseball side.


--
--Dave Till, programmer/writer/web page creator/occasional performer/big geek
email: davet (at) uunet.ca                        WWW: http://www.net/~davet/
Disclaimer:  don't blame my employers for my opinions, or me for outages.
The correct response to "Have a nice day" is "Thanks, but I have other plans."

Clemens sitution just got stranger ron.j...@ccrs.nrcan.gc.ca 1/13/99 12:00 AM
In article <77g2fl$s...@angel.uunet.ca>,

  da...@angel.uunet.ca (Dave Till) wrote:
> In article <H9Am2.78619$c8.38...@hme2.newscontent-01.sprint.ca>,
> Steve Sterling <steves...@sprint.ca> wrote:
> >>As I recall, the Jays weren't exactly a model team in the Jimy
> >>Williams era.  They just didn't get as much bad publicity.
> >
> >True, but Gillick didn't make all the decisions during the Jimy Williams
> >era.  He didn't yet have the control over the team that he had during the
> >Cito-era.  (Is it okay to say the C-word?)
>
> Unless my memory is playing tricks on me, Gillick gained complete
> control of the on-field club operations after Peter Bavasi left,
> which was in about 1981 or so.

Bavasi resigned after the 1982 season. (He didn't know he had offered to
resign. ie He was fired - just not announced as a firing)

> He and Paul Beeston were named vice presidents, with Beeston in charge
> of the financial side and Gillick in charge of the baseball side.

The Jays always had an unusual front office structure. Gillick was
vice-president of player personnel from day one. Beeston was also a
VP. Bavasi was GM and executive vice-pesident.

I don't think Gillick ever had complete contol of anything. Probably
as a reaction to the Bavasi days ( Bavasi had absolute control over
everything. He delegated work, but insisted that any decisions be run
through him. ), the Jays management team didn't do anything without
building a consensus. This worked because the major players were more
or less on the same page.

--
RNJ

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