|John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Alphonsus Jr.||10/16/12 12:18 PM|
But hey, trashing Segovia is a sure way to sell books.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||thomas||10/16/12 1:07 PM|
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||dsi1||10/16/12 1:08 PM|
You'd probably trash him too if he had sex with your mom.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||wollybird||10/16/12 1:32 PM|
On Oct 16, 3:07 pm, thomas <drthomasfbr...@gmail.com> wrote:> >http://m.guardiannews.com/ms/p/gnm/us/view.m?id=15&cat=music&gid=%2Fm...
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Alphonsus Jr.||10/16/12 2:15 PM|
On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 1:09:14 PM UTC-7, dsi1 wrote:A tired old charge, and completely irrelevant to the issue of JW's unbridled ignobility here.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||dsi1||10/16/12 2:45 PM|
Just call me old fashioned but I don't think teachers should be fucking
their student's parents unless there's a significant discount involved.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Alphonsus Jr.||10/16/12 3:01 PM|
On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 2:45:04 PM UTC-7, dsi1 wrote:Whether he did or not, it's completely irrelevant to JW's ignobility here. You're addicted to red herrings.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Alan Turing||10/16/12 3:02 PM|
Well i think part of the problem stems from his attitude of absolute
perfection. How can we begin to understand the way he feels about a
piece when he has spent 40 years of his life dedicating himself day in
and day out to one instrument? I disgree with this notion of always
allowing students to roam free with their ideas. In order for them to
grow they need discipline at first, let them go through some rejection
and let them be put in their place; let them master one piece before
they can be crreative with it.
The student in that youtube video linked earlier here had no
justification for using his own fingering in that piece, all he said
was "i think its good". Surely an answer like that cannot satsify
someone like Segovia.
however where is the line that teacher's must draw before they truly
begin training just machines and preventing actual creativity to
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||dsi1||10/16/12 3:11 PM|
You're doomed to see an elephants in the room as tiny red herrings. No
wonder so many things are puzzling to you.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Steven Bornfeld||10/16/12 3:22 PM|
I suppose you're as entitled to your opinion as is JW.
Segovia's behavior must be viewed in the context of what passed for
acceptable behavior in his age. It's not surprising at all that you
accept Segovia's authoritarian attitude. Fifty years ago, most people
might have agreed with you.
It's fifty years later. Do you think Kent is "ignoble"?
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Alphonsus Jr.||10/16/12 4:03 PM|
On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 3:22:26 PM UTC-7, Steven Bornfeld wrote:I completely reject this rank historicism, and thus the subjectivism and relativism at the root of these words.
Regardless of how JW felt about his time spent with Segovia, or about Segovia's manner in dealing with other students, JW benefited from his time with Segovia. Moreover, JW and many others have benefited from Segovia's many years of work to get the classical guitar taken seriously. Therefore, one might reasonably expect that, in return, JW and others would refrain from publicly trashing Segovia - no matter how strong are their feelings against him.
This public trashing of Segovia by JW is thus vulgar, ignoble, and shamefully lacking in the gratitude that JW owes to Segovia - regardless of his feelings.
That last point especially shows that it's a matter of justice, and would remain so regardless of any time period involved.
But I am grateful to JW himself for one thing. He's provided us with yet another reminder of the soft muliebrity of this age of ours, and thus with yet another refutation of the myth of progress.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Cactus Wren||10/16/12 4:11 PM|
And an excuse to trot out "muliebrous"!
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||thomas||10/16/12 4:51 PM|
Nonsense. JW is a witness to a significant figure in musical history. His obligation is to record that experience accurately, not to engage in mindless hagiography.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Paul Magnussen||10/16/12 5:29 PM|
thomas wrote:Just so: there are enough mindless hagiographers already.
JW's comments are perfectly consonant with several first-hand accounts
I've heard, and several videos which no doubt we all know.
And I've known JW defend Segovia on several other occasions, against
attacks he considered unjustified.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||dsi1||10/16/12 9:17 PM|
There's more important things in this world than a guy that plays the guitar well. Mr. Williams has earned the right to dis Segovia and even hate his guts. You want an unbiased accounting, look elsewhere.
|unk...@googlegroups.com||10/16/12 9:57 PM||<This message has been deleted.>|
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Alphonsus Jr.||10/16/12 9:58 PM|
One's view of this provides an interesting litmus test of the extent to which one has been processed by the militant mediocrity, shameless vulgarity, and unbridled ignobility of today's world.
Noble, magnanimous souls believe that real heroes shouldn't be torn down (especially when they can no longer defend themselves), that any ugliness in them should be concealed, and that their skeletons should definitely remain in the closet.
Yes, those who have preserved any sense of nobility are instinctively repelled by JW's words here - especially if they're true. Alas, the extent to which this kind of thinking is foreign to you is the extent to which you've been processed.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Andrew Schulman||10/16/12 10:00 PM|
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Alphonsus Jr.||10/16/12 10:09 PM|
Thank you. Our friend JonLorPro's recent dropping of "suzerainty" must have inspired it.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Murdick||10/17/12 5:12 AM|
Segovia was not a teacher and he shouldn't be judged on this basis. Shearer was saying the exact same things about Segovia back in the 50s. It was probably a political mistake, but maybe not.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||augusti...@yahoo.com||10/17/12 6:22 AM|
The things in Williams' new autobiography are no more than what he
said while Segovia was still alive. Williams was one of the few at
that time who dared to publicly criticize Segovia's teaching. And he
did it when it might do some good, at a time when students might be
considering whether or not to study with Segovia.
The notion that certain people should be immune from criticism is
quaint. It's also amusing to watch someone criticize someone for
South Euclid, OH
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Paul Magnussen||10/17/12 9:05 AM|
Alphonsus Jr. wrote:> Noble, magnanimous souls believe that real heroes shouldn't be torn down, (especially when they can no longer defend themselves), that any ugliness in them should be concealed, and that their skeletons should definitely remain in the closet.
>So self-serving myths are preferable to historical accuracy. The
Pilgrim Fathers helped the Indians survive the winter. George
Washington gave the Iroquois bubblegum.
The Turks seem to feel the way you do: they've just suppressed
publication of the diary of Kemal Atatürk's wife.
Have you considered moving to Turkey?
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Steven Bornfeld||10/17/12 10:47 AM|
Far be it from me to challenge you on a matter of justice!
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Steven Bornfeld||10/17/12 10:50 AM|
On 10/16/2012 7:11 PM, Cactus Wren wrote:I had to look that up. I'm wondering how this "age" of ours is womanly.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Cactus Wren||10/17/12 10:59 AM|
I only knew it from the last time he used it.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||daveA||10/17/12 11:52 AM|
On Tue, 16 Oct 2012 12:18:14 -0700, Alphonsus Jr. wrote:
> But hey, trashing Segovia is a sure way to sell books.
Breaking news: Segovia is not the first person whose
reputation has been compromised by his appetites.
That's not JW's fault.
Guitar teaching materials and original music for all styles and levels.
Site: http://www.openguitar.com (()) eMail: d.raleig...@gmail.com
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||John E. Golden||10/17/12 2:00 PM|
On 10/16/2012 03:18 PM, Alphonsus Jr. wrote:John Williams is a prince.
John E. Golden
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Fadosolrélamisi||10/17/12 4:34 PM|
And ... As important is to know the name of the king who consecrated him the Prince of Tha guita'?
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Douglas Seth||10/18/12 6:09 AM|
On Oct 17, 5:00 pm, "John E. Golden" <johnisgol...@NOSPAMgmail.com>
> On 10/16/2012 03:18 PM, Alphonsus Jr. wrote:> >http://m.guardiannews.com/ms/p/gnm/us/view.m?id=15&cat=music&gid=%2Fm...
>No, only Prince is Prince. Now, he is a great musician.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Cactus Wren||10/18/12 7:29 AM|
Now, that's a top shelf pop musician, I don't know about this Billy Joel stuff... :)
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Murdick||10/18/12 9:28 AM|
On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 2:18:14 PM UTC-5, Alphonsus Jr. wrote:> http://m.guardiannews.com/ms/p/gnm/us/view.m?id=15&cat=music&gid=%2Fmusic%2F2012%2Foct%2F14%2Fjohn-williams-accuses-segovia-snob&type=article
>John Williams can't play, he can't teach and he can't play ping pong. He's got a very facile technique and musical memory.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Paul Magnussen||10/18/12 11:13 AM|
Murdick wrote:So you've been in John's classes?
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Richard Jernigan||10/18/12 12:50 PM|
On Thursday, October 18, 2012 11:28:58 AM UTC-5, Murdick wrote:John Williams can play quite beautifully at times. At other times he can play on autopilot, pumping out a boring string of uninflected notes. Quite frustrating.
The only time I saw Williams when he was supposed to teach, I thought that if the students had paid for the master class, they had wasted their money.
If it weren't for Segovia, Williams would be playing in some hotel bar in Australia. The burr under his blanket about Segovia makes him look bad, even though he might be telling the truth.
Plenty of other people could dump on Segovia, but don't. A few others do. One or two appear just to make stuff up because they resent Segovia for some reason.
And some, including the Spanish author of the two-volume hagiography make stuff up because they worship at the shrine of El Maestro.
Maybe Williams has figured out that badmouthing Segovia gets him newspaper headlines.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Gerry||10/18/12 6:10 PM|
So what does it get to badmouth Williams?
Music is the best means we have of digesting time. -- W. H. Auden
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Alphonsus Jr.||10/18/12 6:27 PM|
On Thursday, October 18, 2012 6:10:34 PM UTC-7, Gerry wrote:Are you people really unable to distinguish between our talk here and JW's talk in this new book?
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Gerry||10/18/12 10:16 PM|
I question wasn't tendered on behalf of "the people".
Are you really unable to distinguish between badmouthing and
badmouthing: One has ethical purity and the other is just crass and
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Alphonsus Jr.||10/18/12 10:23 PM|
On Thursday, October 18, 2012 10:16:15 PM UTC-7, Gerry wrote:Exactly. My badmouthing here is ethically pure, while JW's in this forthcoming book is just crass and vulgar.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||JPD||10/19/12 12:02 AM|
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Alphonsus Jr.||10/19/12 12:33 AM|
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Benoit Meulle-Stef||10/19/12 12:50 AM|
Segovia is known to have been a pretentious fart, trashing reputation of other players and castrating students who showed too much potential...
He got his ass kicked sooo bad by an Italian player name Pasquale Taraffo (He couldn't even play the harp guitar Taraffo used) that after that he stated a vendetta against multi string instruments calling them an aberration... So yes you can be a role model for many but be an ass...
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Steven Bornfeld||10/19/12 6:59 AM|
On 10/19/2012 1:16 AM, Gerry wrote:Gerry--
For the purposes of knowing the social structure of rmcg, it would be
somewhat useful to think of "Alphonus Jr." here as Lord Valve with a
cleaner mouth, cleaner fingernails, but far less in the way of chops.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Jonathan||10/19/12 6:58 AM|
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Fadosolrélamisi||10/19/12 8:07 AM|
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Richard Jernigan||10/19/12 8:29 AM|
On Thursday, October 18, 2012 8:10:34 PM UTC-5, Gerry wrote:Not much. I haven't been looking for my name in the newspaper headlines.
But to illustrate a different attitude: When I was in high school in the 1950s, I knew Frank Adams, who was Toscanini's timpanist in the NBC Orchestra. This made Frank the leader of the percussion section. Frank retired when Toscanini did and opened a small music store in Maryland just outside of Washington, DC.
Frank was a likable old guy who enjoyed young musicians. He knew everybody in the classical music business, and introduced us kids to them when they came through town. He attended concerts with us and went to Victor's, the classical musician's hangout, with us after concerts.
Toscanini was one of the handful of greatest conductors of the 20th century. He was notorious for his volcanic temper. He would fly into a towering rage, swear at musicians in at least two languages, and fire people on the spot. Usually they would be hired back the next day by the orchestra manager after the Maestro had cooled off.
Several times I tried to get Frank to tell us some Toscanini stories. He evaded the questions. Finally he said, "Richard, we who played under him don't tell Toscanini stories."
"Because we played better under him than under anybody else."
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Gerry||10/19/12 10:34 AM|
Okay then: I understand your logic perfectly.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Gerry||10/19/12 10:36 AM|
On 2012-10-19 13:59:41 +0000, Steven Bornfeld said:Thanks Steve; you're always helpful.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Gerry||10/19/12 10:50 AM|
On 2012-10-19 15:29:50 +0000, Richard Jernigan said:Fear can be a great motivator. Or psychically crippling. I've read
stories of players who worked under Benny Goodman and loathed it for
the worry, anxiety and insecurity it provided; but they made money,
worked with other anxiety-ridden giants, and achieved some resume
bullet points, so that's an offset, right?
Many women truly love the husbands that beat them relentlessly, but I'm
sure they have an offset of some kind or other on good days. "He makes
a good living and he doesn't drink."
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Alphonsus Jr.||10/19/12 11:09 AM|
That's a wonderful story. Many thanks for telling it.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Steven Bornfeld||10/19/12 11:16 AM|
On 10/19/2012 1:36 PM, Gerry wrote:I live to serve.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Alan Turing||10/19/12 3:55 PM|
I feel like you just slipped in wife beating as acceptable to see our
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Alphonsus Jr.||10/19/12 6:33 PM|
Do we share his opinion that beating a wife improves her?
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Gerry||10/19/12 8:32 PM|
It's called "showing you where the slippery slope leads".
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Gerry||10/19/12 8:38 PM|
On 2012-10-20 01:33:10 +0000, Alphonsus Jr. said:You are untidy with your your back-references. As with "you people", I
don't know who the reference of "his" would be, but again it isn't me.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Steven Bornfeld||10/19/12 9:16 PM|
I hadn't heard about Goodman's reputation for "difficulty", until I
heard Marian McPartland talk about meeting him on her radio program--egads!
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||brianm...@my.ccsu.edu||10/19/12 10:09 PM|
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Alphonsus Jr.||10/19/12 10:29 PM|
You blindsters fail to see that, most likely, neither JW nor you would be playing the cg if not for Segovia. Trogs.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Alphonsus Jr.||10/19/12 10:30 PM|
On Friday, October 19, 2012 10:09:29 PM UTC-7, brianm...@my.ccsu.edu wrote:I don't think Segovia would have taken a fag - or faux-fag, if you wish - under his wing.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Richard Jernigan||10/19/12 11:59 PM|
Of course Frank talked more about it. It wasn't fear that made them play better. It was Toscanini's superb conception of the pieces, his ability to convey this to the players, his astonishingly acute ear, in other words his superb ability as a musician and total dedication to the music. They tolerated his character flaws in order to profit from his virtues.
But I'm sure you can find something negative to say about this.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Gerry||10/20/12 12:21 AM|
On 2012-10-20 06:59:04 +0000, Richard Jernigan said:I understood that, and that's why I pointed out the calculation other
use between "tolerate" versus "profit". Frank didn't tell any real
stories about Toscanini so maybe they weren't as bad as say, the father
of Brian Wilson or other notoriously abusive "mentors".
Note that I'm not saying Toscanini was a tyrant; I don't know a damn
thing about him except guys that worked for him won't tell the stories
and say he had an explosive personality.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Gerry||10/20/12 12:23 AM|
On 2012-10-20 06:59:04 +0000, Richard Jernigan said:
> But I'm sure you can find something negative to say about this.Hey! I didn't start a topic bad-rapping Williams or Toscanini. I'm
just trying to poke holes in two-dimensional glory stories.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Alphonsus Jr.||10/20/12 12:42 AM|
On Saturday, October 20, 2012 12:21:57 AM UTC-7, Gerry wrote:I am. And we've all profited from it.
Brian Wilson also profited greatly by his "abusive" father's treatment.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Steven Bornfeld||10/20/12 11:00 AM|
On 10/20/2012 1:29 AM, Alphonsus Jr. wrote:Highly speculative, and unknowable. That's part of the modern myth to
which YOU subscribe--that the classical guitar sprung full-blown from
Segovia's fingers. There was a strong tradition for the classical
guitar in Spain, Italy--and the United States, before Segovia. It is
possible that the classical guitar would not have been so centered on
the Spanish repertoire as it has been--and I doubt everyone would agree
this would have been a bad thing.
Segovia had to good fortune to grow up in the dawn of recorded sound.
IMO, if Segovia hadn't been the standard-bearer, someone else would have.
I think it's likely that more people playing today will credit the
Beatles for having picked up the guitar than Segovia. After picking up
the guitar, developing a taste for cg was mostly seredipity--and perhaps
good judgment. Would most of these players have stopped to listen to
Segovia (and Williams, and Bream, and a few others) had the Beatles
never came to the U.S.? Personally, I very much doubt it.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Alphonsus Jr.||10/20/12 11:04 AM|
A convenient brief for your shameless ingratitude. Notice: convenient, not cogent.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Gerry||10/20/12 12:01 PM|
On 2012-10-20 07:42:19 +0000, Alphonsus Jr. said:"You people", "his" and now "we". I don't get who it is you are
speaking for. Does it even include yourself?
Why is "abusive" in quotes? The man was a walking nightmare. Wilson has
been a basket-case most of his adult life. If your meaning for
"profit" indicates he lived that misery in a nice house, you should
think a little.
Your guesses about others and how they benefit from abuse is useful
only for disregard.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Gerry||10/21/12 3:25 PM|
On 2012-10-20 04:16:40 +0000, Steven Bornfeld said:Everybody who worked for him seems to have accrued at least 3
Besides citing many of Goodman's failings, the tale (linked below)
relates a much larger and more interesting story about road-work,
working in Russia in 1962, etc.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Richard Jernigan||10/22/12 1:28 PM|
Here's Michael Lorimer's take on Segovia as teacher:
I met Lorimer sometime in the 1970s when I was responsible for organizing a concert by him here in Austin for the old Austin Guitar Society. We sold out the Paramount. Lorimer spoke quite warmly of Segovia.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||thomas||10/22/12 2:14 PM|
"Segovia's respect for the individual differences in fingering"? I guess he hadn't seen the Chapdelaine beatdown.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Alphonsus Jr.||10/22/12 2:47 PM|
On Monday, October 22, 2012 2:14:20 PM UTC-7, thomas wrote:Why so enthusiastic to indict Segovia, who's given you so much? Enthusiastic? Yes, as shown by your convenient omission of the rest of that sentence: "as long as he feels these variations still project the music's beauty."
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Richard Jernigan||10/22/12 6:12 PM|
On Monday, October 22, 2012 4:14:20 PM UTC-5, thomas wrote:Just the opposite. I saw the full sentence "Segovia's respect for the individual differences in fingering as long as he feels these variations still project the music's beauty." as likely a reference to the Chapdelaine incident. Also the remark about portamento. Lorimer's Segovia quote on portamento is straight from the "Chapdelaine incident." It was Chapdelaine leaving out the portamento that really set Segovia off.
Have you seen the video of Chapdelaine's reaction the next day?
After the scene of Chapdelaine getting kicked out, we get to hear his reaction.
He spoke of Segovia with great respect, and said he learned a lot. You know, I suppose, that the notorious incident occurred at the third of three master classes Chapdelaine had with Segovia that week. The back story Chapdelaine tells is interesting. He never got past the first few notes without being stopped.
After getting kicked out, Chapdelaine says he put in a day of "mega-practice", putting into effect what he had learned. The next night, Segovia "Just let me play."
I think Chapdelaine may see this forum at leas occasionally. If he does, I'm sure he's thoroughly sick of the ignorant pontificating that goes on..
Besides, getting kicked out of Segovia's master class helped make Chapdelaine better known
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Alphonsus Jr.||10/22/12 6:30 PM|
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||thomas||10/22/12 6:54 PM|
Battered wives often defend their husbands.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Alphonsus Jr.||10/22/12 7:00 PM|
On Monday, October 22, 2012 6:54:09 PM UTC-7, thomas wrote:So, along with the myth of progress, you've also bought this myth. You really are fully processed.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Richard Jernigan||10/22/12 10:49 PM|
On Monday, October 22, 2012 8:54:09 PM UTC-5, thomas wrote:Isn't the internet wonderful? You can always have the last word!
....and then Thomas said:....
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||thomas||10/23/12 4:59 AM|
An anti=progress guy like you oughta be making music by banging two rocks together. Guitar is simply too fashionable.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Jonathan||10/23/12 11:33 AM|
I assume you don't really believe half of the bullshit you spew here, but if you're for real, you must have had a doozy of a childhood.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Alphonsus Jr.||10/23/12 11:49 AM|
Your impulse to psychoanalyze me rather than to actually address my words is duly noted. I understand. Given today's processing, you can hardly resist this, along with believing that I'm joking.
And isn't it strange that, as good liberals, you nevertheless offer no compassion, no understanding, and no tolerance for my sadly benighted condition? You offer no helping hands. Only condemnation. Is this how those on the moral high ground operate?
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Jonathan||10/24/12 3:41 AM|
*You're* the one seeking the psychoanalysis, although you might not be aware of it.
Show me a person who constantly attack the beliefs of others without reason, context, or provocation, and I'll show you someone who is subconsciously trying to justify his own value system.
|Re: John Williams: Shameless Ingrate||Richard Jernigan||10/24/12 1:17 PM|