|request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Paul Orwig||8/19/13 9:01 PM|
Thanks to the collaboration and contributions of a lot of volunteers, work is progressing well on the Joomla "app store" feature, and hopefully it will be ready in time to be considered to be included in Joomla 3.2.
Adding an "app store" feature is one of Joomla's 2013 overall project goals:
The solution that is being worked on is not really an app store, and besides that idea is already taken, so we would like to invite you to share your ideas in this Google form for a great informal name for this new feature.
is still more coding work that needs to be completed before this new feature will
be ready to be included in a future Joomla release. Once the coding work
is completed, then more help will be needed to test the new feature.
If you would like to help with either coding or testing this new feature, please respond in this thread and someone will follow up with you about how you can help.
|Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Efthimios Mavrogeorgiadis||8/19/13 9:49 PM|
I'd love to help with the code development. Count me in!
|Re: [jcms] request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Hannes Papenberg||8/20/13 2:00 AM|
I don't have a lot of time, but I'd like to help with code review, so
please count me in.
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|request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||maskitto||8/20/13 2:41 PM|
Count me in for testing.
|unk...@googlegroups.com||8/20/13 2:41 PM||<This message has been deleted.>|
|Re: [jcms] request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Paul Orwig||8/20/13 2:55 PM|
@All - there are still plenty of opportunities to help with coding and testing, so please let us know if you are able to help!
@Airton - thank you for volunteering to help test! We will be in touch if this new feature makes it into 3.2 beta.
@Efthimios - thank you for volunteering to help with coding! If you use Skype, can you please send an email to me at paul....@opensourcematters.org and I will add you to the group chat? If you don't use Skype, let me know and we will connect another way.@Hannes - thank you for volunteering to help with a code review. For the approach that's being taken, there will be code on both the client side (new tab to "Install from Web" in the Joomla Extension Manager) and server side (read the JED database in mosetsTree format, and convert it into a model that is usable by the specified View+Layouts that will be sent back to the client in the new "Install from Web" tab). We'll be in touch when there's enough code in place to review. In the meantime, here's a link to the architecture document if you want to read up about it: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GykMS7YRVg9igSWO7lpPxJp36BXmz1syB1m3rw-qAZA/edit?usp=sharing
On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 3:41 PM, Airton <airton...@gmail.com> wrote:
|Re: [jcms] request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Sully Sullivan||8/20/13 4:18 PM|
I'd like to volunteer the Marketing group to help with the naming portion of this project, and also to assist with any graphic design and branding needs that might be identified as we progress.
I'd be pleased to add anyone who'd like to join to the Marketing team Skype chat.
|Re: [jcms] request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Paul Orwig||8/20/13 5:12 PM|
Hi Sully,Thanks for volunteering - help from the Marketing group on this is welcome and appreciated!
In addition to your invitation for those interested to join the Marketing team Skype chat, here's my suggestion:
Let's continue encouraging community members to share their naming ideas, and before anything gets decided there will be some collaborative follow up and coordination about the points you mentioned between those who are doing the development for this new feature and the Marketing group.
|RE: [jcms] request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Sully Sullivan||8/20/13 5:57 PM|
I like that. Perhaps we can help by setting up a submission form for naming ideas?
|Re: [jcms] request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Paul Orwig||8/20/13 6:03 PM|
Good deal - the submission form is already up and running. I linked to it in the original post of this thread, and I also linked to it in this blog that was published yesterday:http://community.joomla.org/blogs/leadership/1767-name-ideas-and-volunteers-requested-for-qapp-storeq-effort.html
|RE: [jcms] request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Sully Sullivan||8/20/13 6:23 PM|
That’s what I get for doing this from a mobile phone. Thanks Paul. If we can help, let us know.
|Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Andrew Eddie||8/20/13 9:32 PM|
On Tuesday, 20 August 2013 14:01:12 UTC+10, Paul Orwig wrote:
Paul, do you have a project/product manager designated yet, or are you actually looking for one of those as well?
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Paul Orwig||8/20/13 10:19 PM|
We would welcome your help in any way that you might have the time and interest for.
Hi Andrew,We are fortunate to have Beat and David Hurley sharing parts of the project manager role for this feature (along with leading in other ways).
|request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Bakual||8/20/13 10:24 PM|
Why not just call it JED? There isn't really a need for a new name. It's the JED built into the CMS, nothing else.
|Re: [jcms] request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||oc666||8/21/13 1:38 AM|
@Bakual, good idea, I think keep the name JED or something with the word JED will sounds good and be more viral, because most of the Joomla users are familiar with.
On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 8:24 AM, Bakual <werbe...@bakual.ch> wrote:
Why not just call it JED? There isn't really a need for a new name. It's the JED built into the CMS, nothing else.
|Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Chris Ward||8/21/13 3:31 AM|
I´d like to help with documentation and testing :)
|Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Markus Bopp||8/21/13 5:40 AM|
- Find Extensions
- Extension Finder
- 3rd Party Extensions
- Extend Online
- Online Install
- JED = JED Extended Directory (recursive acronym)
- JED Store
- JED Market
- JED Vault
|Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Gavin Erickson||8/21/13 7:23 AM|
Am interested in/available for some testing!
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Paul Orwig||8/21/13 9:45 AM|
@Bakual and Ofer - Thanks, that's a good observation about the connection with the JED! Some of the suggestions that have been submitted for this new feature are including JED as some or all of the unofficial name. All ideas are welcome. Please consider taking a moment to add your ideas to the Google form (unless you already have, and if so thanks for doing that!).
@Chris - Thanks for volunteering! We will be in touch when we're ready to ask for help with documentation and testing.
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Hannes Papenberg||8/21/13 10:13 AM|
a quick question after scanning through the whole document: You are
planning to hard link the whole thing to the JED. Wouldn't it be better
to have a system like in Linux distros or in PEAR, etc. with a package
manager that reads from different distro channels? That would allow
developers/hosters/whatever to provide their own source for extensions,
too, and you could more easily change URLs for the whole system in case
something goes wonkers instead of having this hardcoded in the code. I'm
seeing something like a channel for Joomla stable stuff, Joomla
experimental, RocketTheme templates, YouJoomla templates, Akeeba
> (unless you already have, and if so thanks for doing that!).
> <mailto:snup...@googlemail.com>> wrote:> <https://docs.google.com/a/opensourcematters.org/forms/d/1luFmoduWLle5jzuTQzvy_bht2FtLINs2pSB741jUh2c/viewform>
> for a great informal name for this new feature.> <mailto:joomla-dev-cms%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>.
> To post to this group, send an email to> <mailto:joomla-...@googlegroups.com>.
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Matt Thomas||8/21/13 10:26 AM|
Awesome idea Hannes +1
> I悲 like to help with documentation and testing :)
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||joomila||8/21/13 10:38 AM|
I've created a component for create a repository server also.
Hannes,I'm working on a diff version from 'app store' if you want to check I'm working with diff "repositories".
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Paul Orwig||8/21/13 11:55 AM|
@Gavin - Thanks for volunteering to help with testing - we will be in touch!
@Hannes - Thanks for asking/suggesting about support for multiple repositories. That along with some other good ideas are on the current App Store roadmap for Joomla 4 +. Here is another earlier shared doc that has some Q/A about that idea (see the point #1 under "Future Interesting Additions" on page 5):@Joomla Forms - thanks for sharing your naming ideas! If you want to also add them to the Google form, that would be appreciated!
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Andrew Eddie||8/21/13 1:18 PM|
On Thursday, 22 August 2013, Paul Orwig wrote:
Is there any other documentation about the project?
http://learn.theartofjoomla.com - free tutorials and videos on Joomla development
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Paul Orwig||8/21/13 1:34 PM|
I am not aware of any other documentation for this project besides the 2 shared docs that have been linked to in this thread (as well as in some earlier threads as work on this project has progressed). For clarity and convenience, here again are those 2 shared docs:
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Andrew Eddie||8/21/13 1:52 PM|
On 22 August 2013 06:34, Paul Orwig <paul....@opensourcematters.org> wrote:
Ok, I must have missed those in the conversation - sorry.
Would anyone be offended if I proposed a completely different approach to the architecture?
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Paul Orwig||8/21/13 2:10 PM|
Hi Andrew,Speaking only for myself, proposing a different approach wouldn't offend me.
But please do understand that this approach has been shared earlier (and feedback requested) on at least one public list, the JED team has been involved in the process, and work has been underway on this approach for a while (ramping up the past couple of weeks).
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Andrew Eddie||8/21/13 2:33 PM|
On 22 August 2013 07:10, Paul Orwig <paul....@opensourcematters.org> wrote:
I understand that, but some things have obviously changed since it was written. The statement about not using the Joomla Framework because it is "not stable and upgradable easily" is somewhat bemusing (that's the nicest way I can put it).
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Michael Babker||8/21/13 3:35 PM|
I'm willing to bet the document was written very early in the Framework's official lifetime, so there were a lot of unanswered questions out there about its use. Having said that, and having implemented the Framework in our Issue Tracker application, I'd also like to come forward and ask (depending on how much effort has been made in working on code) that this piece be reconsidered. It's stable code (most of it is in the CMS right now, and what isn't is either because it was dropped from our Framework layer in favor of application level flexibility or has since been refactored) and usable today.
For an application of this scale, you're going to push the architectural limits of the CMS and I'd like for the app to not give users a negative experience because of that. FWIW, in my unscientific comparisons, the memory use in our tracker application is about on par with that of the CMS, but there are two places where it makes its money right now: database queries per page load and total execution time. With non-database based routing and sessions, we have pages with zero database queries and go through an execution cycle as quickly as ~0.12 second. In comparison, a stock 2.5 install (since this is what I have active locally at the moment) can get down to about a half a second but runs 18 database queries in the cycle.
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Andrew Eddie||8/21/13 3:59 PM|
That's my initial concern as well. Like, if the CMS was able to do web services I'd be using it for work myself. But the CMS is designed to edit web site content - it's not a platform for a RESTful service layer (which is actually a true Content Management System) and we have put a lot of work into the Framework to allow for applications like this to be built without all the baggage that comes with the CMS architecture. It's not the right platform for the job (in my opinion).
The other thing I would seriously look at is replacing the main data source with Mongo DB (unstructured data to keep things stupid simple) and using Solr for search. Having used Solr at work, it's just a no brainer in terms of having things scale. Finder has a very real performance ceiling and I would expect the JED/Store to hit that pretty quickly, if it hasn't already.
Yes, this might be outside some people's comfort zone but we are talking about a key piece of infrastructure for the Joomla project that should intend to set it apart from of offerings (aka attracting new users and support).
I'm also assuming that templates will just be rolled into this (honestly, we've waited long enough).
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Beat||8/21/13 5:10 PM|
Hi Andrew and Michael,
I do understand your points of view, all valid points, and I'm very happy to see that Framework is reaching maturity and having good performances. That's awesome news!
The Apps-Store implementation team is currently in a coding sprint to fully finish the Joomla CMS client-side and a first version of the server side during the next 4 days. Among others, we have 3 full-time brilliant developers volunteers with good Joomla CMS knowledge in the team and most importantly who are committed to provide 100% of their time during the next few days focussed for finishing this in time for Joomla 3.2 features-freeze.
Please note that it's specially the Joomla CMS *client* side that needs to be finished before the freeze. And in our design, that client is not impacted by the technology used server-side (and actually mostly not by the client side technology received from the server, as it fetches CSS, JS and HTML from server ;-) ).
But obviously we also need to have a first version ("prototype") of the server-side that also needs to run fine for the deadline. The architecture has been designed in a way that the server side can evolve or be redone anytime (including when the new JED software is there).
The architecture has also been designed in a way that the server load is minimal as CDN and caches will be used in the deployment.
Also whether we use Joomla CMS or Joomla Framework as server-side "engine", the layouts, views and models' code will be 80% the same, also we have to use the current JED database for now. Only controllers and API will be slightly different.
So I am very relaxed and open on the server-side of things as don't have hard deadlines nor performance issues in both cases (CDN+caches).
The only thing is that within the next 4 days (including this week-end), the version 1 of server needs to be finished. We can and will improve server side during beta and RC stages of Joomla 3.2 (and after stable release too).
We need to keep our team focussed to finish in time. The last thing we need now is a big discussion on something that actually doesn't matter for the immediate deadline, and that's really easy to change. ;-)
That said, as long as we can keep our deadline focus (and thus code more than we talk), our team is open to suggestions, help and volunteers who can commit full-time to coding during next few days are welcome, and later too :-) .
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Andrew Eddie||8/21/13 6:22 PM|
I'm probably missing something and this might be a dumb question but why is 3.2 on the critical path? Would you start with a stand-alone extension that can be tested int the wild before you drop it into the core?
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Robert Vining||8/21/13 9:22 PM|
I'm only guessing here, but they want it in 3.2 because its the last release of the 3.X series that allows for new features (per JAB PLT meeting). 3.5 will only be stability and bugfixes... its now or 4.0 (Sept. 2014) if they want it in.
Personally I think it's a bit late to the game, since Feature Freeze was July 15, 2013 and pushed back to July 31, 2013. Now we are talking August 25th for Feature Freeze so the first alpha of 3.2 with this and other features for testing will be released on or around Sept. 1st I'm guessing. That's only 2-4 weeks from stable release date for 3.2.
"Katie, Bar the Door!"
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||alikon||8/21/13 9:58 PM|
hi all, i will glad to spent my free time on coding & testing
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Bakual||8/22/13 12:00 AM|
I'm not that excited about the idea to rush a feature into 3.2 just to have it go in. This sounds like what we did with JTags which was quite a disaster imho. The API changed several times afterwards due to bugs and other shortcomings in the code. This is not what should happen in stable code.
Maybe the extension store should really first be developed as an installable extension which can be tested properly before it is implemented into core where all users will face its bugs and shortcomings. And don't say there will be no bugs. There will be for sure :)
Just don't rush something again which is then only tested a week by a few people before it goes life. Especially not a feature like this.
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Andrew Eddie||8/22/13 12:33 AM|
On 22 August 2013 14:22, Robert Vining <robert...@gmail.com> wrote:
Right, but there are still quite a few scenarios that could play out, as long as you are willing to be flexible. Worrying about 3.2 is an unnecessary pressure that will only lead to mistakes and a rushed job. If it were me, I'd let 3.2 happen. Provide the App Store extension as an optional download for beta testers and use that to nail both the store integration in the CMS and the services layer. Then, release 3.3 with the App Store component when it's ready (no need to wait the whole 6 months) as a "new version we slipped in because it made sense to do so" and release 3.5 six months after that (honestly, who cares if 4.0 waits another 6 months). Easy!
That makes more sense than shipping a component with 3.2 that doesn't work (in civil engineering terms, it's like building half a bridge).
Yeah, and we seem to have this conversation every release :) We rushed before - we know where that road leads (do we really want to repeat the tags debacle?). I mean, let's think about it. What are you going to do? Announce in 3.2.7 that "hey, the new app store feature now works and we'd like you to beta test it" - no, that's not the point of Semver.
Okay, so, there also seems to be a lot of progress and information floating around that isn't immediately obvious to people (and we on the Platform/Framework went through this exercise at the beginning of the year). What I would do is this:
1. Set up three new repo's on Github under either the Joomla org. or under the Joomla-Projects org. (the latter is probably better because we can alway move them once the GA stamp goes on the code):
joomla-store-extension - This would be the CMS extension that would allow you to connect to the store
joomla-store-services - This is the RESTful service application that would be the engine room for the store.
joomla-store-site - This would be, in my mind, the new site that replaces the code that runs the JED today (it just needs to make calls to the REST services, nothing more). That's the way I would advise a customer that came to me to do this type of project. If this thought is too controversial for now, just ignore it (but it's what I'd do because this is how we are building virtually the same type of project at work).
2. In those repo's, collect all the Google docs, post it notes and what have you about things people have discussed and decided and put them in the wiki of the repo. Then we need to work out if we actually have enough to call a working specification.
3. Develop task lists as issues in each of the repositories. For non-engineering tasks, like marketing, I would use the joomla-store-extension repo to coordinate all that.
4. Divide the tasks into phases and add them as milestones on Github. That way everyone can see very quickly how close we to the goal at any point in time.
5. Add a "zone" on devleoper.joomla.org like we have done for the Issue Tracker so that people can see this is a recognised part of the project that they can contribute to; and it provides all the sign posts for where and how to help and who's in charge et al.
6. Use this exercise to review build processes, CI etc and so on. I'd love to talk to someone about what I've done with Github flow at work (talk about taking a pick axe to red tape - it's so liberating). And yes, I'm going to mention this code should be unit tested as it get committed because it simply is THAT important that something like an App Store work flawlessly, especially if you are going to add any sort of commercial extension support in the future.
Once you've done all that, it's just a matter of "getting things done" but we found doing it this way for the framework helped everyone keep sane and "stuff" wasn't locked away in people's brains.
I don't have a lot of spare time at the moment, but I'm happy to help people work out how to organise things and bounce around architectural ideas for the services layer (please, please, please, don't just drop a 3.2 in, close your eyes and hope for the best - it ain't gonna work and it ain't gonna scale). This is a non-trivial project; it will need to involve a lot of people and it will take a good six months to get off the ground (aiming for a 3.3) and then another full release cycle to iron out all the issues.
My 2c and then some.
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||oc666||8/22/13 7:07 AM|
Sorry to pop-up, but I think rush is better than postpone.
From my short experience, I see that things get delayed, they will go almost forever (HMVC, UCM, JTracker, continue?)
It's preferred to push something even it's not complete or we have bugs. If no one was push Bootstrap there wasn't mobile compatibility to Joomla 3. If nobody was push tags into to the core & CMS, we were continue to argue how and when to implement that.
Remember that new features bring more people to our community, and more important - to test and improve those new features and old features as well.
So maybe we should start with light Joomla-App-Store, but we should push it ASAP, without grandiose plan (KISS style).
Just my 2 cents.
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Bakual||8/22/13 7:31 AM|
Tags was a disaster, really. There is no excuse for what happend there and you should not do that again. Especially not with a feature like this where the user will see every bug and error you made.
For tags the bugs were mostly hidden and only visible for developers who had to change their code multiple times to match the changed API. That was bad enough (and still is, we're still fixing bugs...). If you deploy a buggy App Store, it sure would have been better to postpone that to a later release. The impact will be a lot worse.
Also to note. Currently the download link in JED points to a download page, not to the actual file. JED has currently no way of knowing the exact download location for an extension. So this is an important information which has yet to be collected from the extension developers to provide a one-click installation from the backend. It's probably better to collect that information (update streams or similar) prior to the release of an app store, or that feature will fail for all extensions at release, rendering the app store useless. It would be the same catalog we already have, only in the backend itself. However that is not a feature which is even worth pushing as it's already and better available at JED.
Joomla 3.2 is a stable release, even when it is STS. It's not meant to beta test stuff.
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Paul Orwig||8/22/13 8:59 AM|
Hi alikon,Thank you for volunteering to help with coding and testing! We will add you to the App Store team's group Skype chat to get your help now for coding, and you (along with others) can also help later when the time comes for testing.
On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 10:58 PM, alikon <in...@alikonweb.it> wrote:
|Re: [jcms] request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Vic Drover||8/22/13 2:04 PM|
> Tags was a disaster, really. There is no excuse for what happend there and you should not do that again. Especially not with a feature like this where the user will see every bug and error you made.+1
|Re: [jcms] request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Andrew Eddie||8/22/13 2:57 PM|
Where's the branch or pull request to review?
|Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||ramesh elamathi||8/23/13 3:29 AM|
You can count on me for testing.
Is the coding hosted in github?
|Re: [jcms] request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Hils||8/23/13 6:19 AM|
|Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||abdullah altaf||8/25/13 6:55 AM|
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Paul Orwig||8/26/13 10:25 AM|
Hi ramesh and abdullah,Thank you for volunteering to help with testing! Feature freeze for 3.2 beta is today, so please keep an eye out for an update about testing.
On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 7:55 AM, abdullah altaf <abdullahb...@gmail.com> wrote:
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||ucefkh||8/26/13 1:17 PM|
Hello Paul i wanna Contribute Where ? in coding and UI Design
do you have any todo list ?
2013/8/26, Paul Orwig <paul....@opensourcematters.org>:
Youssefkh.com is a website dedicated to writing tutorials and code snippets
about *Web* *Development*, the main subjects are *PHP5*, *Joomla *(yes &
others cms & scripts), *jQuery*, *CSS3* and *HTML5*. & also *Java*,*3D* &
also *Linux *World Why ? Because Open source Matters ;)
* & you can follow me right here ;)
*Skype : ucefkh*
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Paul Orwig||8/26/13 1:46 PM|
Hello Youssef,Thank you for offering to help! There is a push going on right now to finish some work before the feature freeze deadline. We will be in touch with you soon about how you can help.
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Andrew Eddie||8/26/13 7:00 PM|
On Tuesday, 27 August 2013 06:46:19 UTC+10, Paul Orwig wrote:
Forgive me if this information is right in front of my nose, but I'm struggling to find it.
Where is the information about where all the code is being worked on (branch, etc)?
Where do you report bugs/issue/problems?
Has a pull request been made yet?
Has a JoomlaCode feature tracker item been raised yet?
Thanks in advance.
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Paul Orwig||8/26/13 7:18 PM|
Hi Andrew,There are three feature tracker items associated with the app store work (posted within the past hour):
It hasn't been my role to keep track of the different repositories where the work has been getting done. So I will happily defer to others who are better able to answer that question than me.
Pull requests are coming, so just a little more patience would be appreciated with that.
Once the pull requests are made, then I think testing can begin and bugs/issues/problems can be reported as they would with anything else.
Thanks for your interest!
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Bakual||8/27/13 12:05 AM|
You're aware that the approach of loading an extern CSS file and inserting HTML into a div using AJAX will make it impossible to provide an alternative layout for this feature as the HTML and CSS is hardcoded from the server. Template overrides will not work at all. There will be no way to make it fit better on hathor when it's optimized in isis. Not even speaking about 3rd party templates.
It's true that it allows for more flexibility (or less planning/thinking?) on your part, but it takes away every flexibility from the user side.
Developers of administrator templates will probably not love you for that.
Also on a related note: It will not be possible to use the webservice from a different extension (or even website) due to the hardcoded HTML output. This may not be in the scope today, but it sure will come up as soon as the feature is live.
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Amy Stephen||8/27/13 2:58 PM|
If it's generating HTML, then that makes sense, though.
A little uncalled for, though, don't you think? Don't learn our bad habits, you're one of the few who has strong developer skills and little baggage. Hold on to that as long as you can.
Is that for certain true? Or, is the output expected to fill the backend (other than the menus and footer, etc)? (And are we up to 12 or so providers of Admin Templates?) This issue might be overstated.
It dawns on me that maybe it's intended to be less consumable. If the output is rendered in JSON and can be consumed on any website, then how does the project prevent that from happening? How would that impact Ad revenue if traffic was elsewhere? (How will the Administrator interface reduce JED traffic?) Will the existing policies change so that it is "legal" to use JED data on other sites? It would be drop-dead-simple to put up a JED site with JSON output and a half-dozen templates - does the project want that?
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Andrew Eddie||8/27/13 3:15 PM|
On 28 August 2013 07:58, Amy Stephen <amyst...@gmail.com> wrote:
Bakual is concerned about how you made the HTML accessible. For example, how does Hathor skin the response from the server when it is already HTML. He has a very good point. Apart from that, people like Apigee, one of the leading API companies in the business, have a lot of material about how to write API's, but none of their material advocates using an API to return a rendered response (aka HTML vs JSON).
You assume that English is Bakual's first language. Ignoring any perceived judgement about tone, his point is fair based on what the industry standard is today.
It doesn't. That's the point of open API's. I'm completely sure everyone involved has taken this into account so there's no need to worry. At worse, there is always Github's terms of service to draw on but I'm sure OSM's legal committee is looking into it as we speak.
I'm absolutely sure that such changes will be coming out in the RFP for JED changes (coming in the next two weeks I believe). As an extension developer, this is an exciting development for me because of the potential for my "wares" to be broadcast to a wider audience and on a wider array devices (think TouchArcade or 148apps for the JED - how cool would that be). I can see me consuming the API data to show my stats on my site where I market my [albeit free] extensions.
Very exciting times ahead.
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Amy Stephen||8/27/13 7:12 PM|
Andrew - it would not be necessary for me to make any such assumption. I enjoyed working with Thomas very recently on a couple of patches for the CMS.
My point is OSM's rules would have to first allow a broader distribution of JED data before a JSON stream could be used elsewhere.
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Andrew Eddie||8/27/13 9:29 PM|
Yes (well, it doesn't really matter if the public feed is HTML and JSON in this case - it's a feed that anyone can access). I would assume that is in the works otherwise the project would never have been given the go-ahead. In terms of the devil in the detail, I think looking at Github's rate-limiting strategy would be a good start in my humble opinion.
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Bakual||8/27/13 11:39 PM|
Thanks for the kind words :-)
Also the produced HTML/CSS may work on Joomla 3.2 when it's released, but how do we ensure it still works when Joomla 4.0 is released? Or 4.5? With compeletely different templates (probably based on Bootstrap 3 instead 2). Will you maintain different layouts and CSS for the various Joomla versions? This approach will most likely produce heachaches in future.
It may be today, but who knows what is tomorrow. I don't think we need to include stuff which makes it even harder to do backend templates.
This may be true that it is not wanted. But why would we want to restrict that? With this app store we already serve the data into some millions websites. Would it really matter if there are some added sites which take those data?
Regarding ad revenue: Do you expect that the app store shows adds in the Joomla backend? I really hope it doesn't. And if it does I hope some clever guy will create an ad blocker plugin :-)
Personally I think (and hope) the new JED should offer an API which can be used by extensions. That would be awesome. But I have no clue what JED is planning.
On a sidenote: the current approach with serving HTML output packed in JSON could also already be used by other sites. It just makes the script more complicate sine it needs to parse the HTML instead of some structured data, but it doesn't block them from using it. So this can't really be an argument imho.
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Amy Stephen||8/28/13 9:11 AM|
Andrew and Bakual -
I do not disagree with any technical points you are raising. I also don't disagree with your point about liberating the content. But, what we think and what OSM allows currently are different.
These things take time and iterations and Joomla evolves very slowly. Provided everyone is allowed to participate, which is what I have observed thus far, (and Beat, maybe that wasn't the most welcoming response to Andrew and maybe this thread isn't the best response regarding your efforts but is there anyone who has not had their efforts unappreciated? anyone who hasn't been "unappreciative?" We have collectively turned the word volunteer into a horrible thing, I fear.)
JSON would be far, far, far better than HTML. There isn't even a debate.
Andrew's point about rate limiting is probably the most urgent point and something to either resolve or at least have confidence can be resolved before putting it out into the wild.
Other than that, everything can be improved. Agree on tags not being a great feature -- but, between many of you -- Michael, Thomas, Beat, you are improving it. Yea, the API changed and it shouldn't. Maybe it will encourage developers to stop complaining from afar or avoiding the API and get involved.
Andrew - the future is the framework. That's the only reason your time is better there. You'll kill yourself trying to do it all.
I need to stop responding here so please privately email me if necessary.
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Bakual||8/28/13 10:11 AM|
Just want to clarify that I think JTags is a great and needed feature. I just think it was rushed in and the fact that the API changed several times now was way less than optimal. Some more time to test it would certainly have helped. I really don't think we can take JTags as an example on how to include new features, especially bigger ones. That was my issue, not the JTags feature itself. I also didn't want to attack anyone, I hope that is clear. It just looked to me like the app store was going the same road.
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Hannes Papenberg||8/28/13 11:01 AM|
Sorry Amy, but the argument "OSM doesn't allow others to use the JED
data, so we can't use JSON to display it in the J backend" doesn't catch
with me. Just because OSM doesn't allow people to make a JED copy,
doesn't mean that we can't make the data of the JED easier machine
readable. You are also not allowed to drive a one-way-street in the
wrong direction, but that doesn't mean that we have to install traffic
spikes everywhere. If someone still does it, we will find out soon
enough and get him/her with lawyers, but does it otherwise mean we need
to restrict us in regard of the tools we use? No.
> have collectively turned the word /volunteer/ into a horrible thing, I
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Amy Stephen||8/28/13 11:57 AM|
Please do not quote comments and attribute it to anyone, including myself, when those words were never said, nor was that implied.
If you want JSON data, fork it, change it, and make a pull request. No one is saying you can't or shouldn't. Go for it, Hannes.
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Amy Stephen||8/28/13 12:00 PM|
Thomas - that was sloppy wording on my part, I was certainly not suggesting anyone had said that. My apologies.
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Andrew Eddie||8/28/13 2:09 PM|
Just to be clear my only interest is to help which the server and only if that's built using the Framework. The only interest I have in the client is ensuring that it is expecting the right form of data, but beyond that, I don't really care what it looks like, how it's designed or whether it is following the code style rules, among other things. I haven't had the opportunity to work on a pure Framework services application yet and doing so will help me prepare for when I have to refactor my Platform/Framework hybrid beast at work. It will give me an excuse to polish up the data mapper work I've been doing. I'm very passionate about Joomla realising that the Framework is a vital part of its ecosystem and its future sustainability so my involvement in this project, I believe, would help show that the CMS and the Framework teams can work together to create something beautiful providing we agree on how we "talk" (JSON) to each other.
I'm also, now, erring on the side of thought that there is more to this project than is publicly available to a casual onlooker. To that point, I'm assuming people have realised creating a data feed for the JED changes the game significantly, and positively in my opinion, for everyone and some "rules" will have to change as a part of the process. If they haven't realised that, we'll, I guess they know now and either it gets added to the todo list or the project comes to a grinding halt.
The only thing that is really grating on my nerves now is having to touch JoomlaCode. Hopefully that can change soon :)
http://learn.theartofjoomla.com - free tutorials and videos on Joomla development
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Andrew Eddie||8/28/13 2:41 PM|
And apparently they do [realise it]. Be careful what you wish for Amy :)
THAT is an exemplary example of a requirements document.
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||brian teeman||8/28/13 3:31 PM|
Please keep on topic - in case anyone has forgotten it is "
request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Andrew Eddie||8/28/13 4:20 PM|
On 29 August 2013 08:31, brian teeman <joom...@googlemail.com> wrote:
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Amy Stephen||8/28/13 6:54 PM|
Very cool. =)
|Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Carsten Thrane||9/2/13 3:02 PM|
Nice that some nice joomlapeople are working on an Apps Store
the concept could be called EasyX short for Easy Extend
I think it is possible to start with fx 50 well known and well programmed free extensions
only extensions that can be updated thrue the joomla-updatesystem kan go in to the EasyX program.
If the extensions are in the EasyX program they can have a special logo in JED
Fx a big red E
The extensions have to be selected by a commitee to get the E
Only totally free well programmed extensions can be accepted for EasyX.
The extensions I would like to have in EasyX version1.0:
The 3-4 most used editors
Jevents, phocadownload and phocagallery, K2, and som more CCK's
Facebookintegrationmodules, 2-3 form-free components
when the extensions get new functionality, they can be updated thru the fantastic joomla update system.
It is very attractive for the joomlaextensions-developers to have and extension in EasyX
the developers will in EasyX will get the best exposure for there joomlabrands
Den tirsdag den 20. august 2013 06.01.12 UTC+2 skrev Paul Orwig:
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Cyril Rezé||9/7/13 4:55 PM|
Don't know where it is in the brainstorming about name for "App Store", but i've given my contribution to the form : https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1luFmoduWLle5jzuTQzvy_bht2FtLINs2pSB741jUh2c/viewform
One of them, with declination :
- App & go!
- J! App & go
- Joomla App & go!
Some others: J! install, J! switch, Joomla! Connect, J! Connect, Connecting J!, Joo!go ...
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||portugalmarketplace||9/8/13 10:15 AM|
From LyriC JoomliC Some others: J! install, J! switch, Joomla! Connect, J! Connect, Connecting J!, Joo!go ...
From me ...
If the above are possibles then what about :
Joom!a and Go
Joom!a and Connect
Connect with Joom!a
Joom!a and Switch
Run with JRad
Advance with JRad
Joomla! Up, Up and Away.
I have also made (serious!) suggestions through the (official) Google form.
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Paul Orwig||9/10/13 7:53 PM|
@Carsten, Lyric and Peter - Thank you for your recent suggestions and name ideas! I see some of them captured in the results of the Google form - please feel free to add the rest to the form that you wrote here - the form allows multiple submissions.@Everyone who has offered to test the App Store (earlier in this thread along with any and everyone else) - The initial coding is complete, the CDN is now enabled, and (thanks PLT!) there are now 3.2 alpha packages ready to be installed and tested. Here are the details:
Here are Feature Tracker and what I hope are the correct Github links to leave your feedback, test results and discuss issues:
The app store can be found as the new (4th from the left) "Install from Web" tab in Extension Manager -> Install. The performance is great on my localhost, and so far for my testing I installed a free extension (no registration required) with no issues.
I encourage everyone to thoroughly test the app store. If anyone wants to help organize/coordinate some effective load testing (Matt, Rouven, others?), that would be greatly appreciated! If so, please speak up and let us know what you want/need in terms of additional help and/or support.
The app store concept has been talked about at least since May 2011, and probably longer. I want to recognize some volunteers who have led the way to define the the vision for this solution, who got buy in from key stakeholders, who helped set up the infrastructure and development environment, and who worked really hard to bring the app store to this point where it is ready for testing and review. I want to also recognize a number of volunteers who have been very supportive in key roles from a leadership standpoint (I apologize if I missed anyone!):
|Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Amy Stephen||9/10/13 8:19 PM|
I know everyone isn't 100% behind the effort, but I recommend against adding an endless loop to the installation process just to save face on what *might* be a problem with the new JED feature!
Just teasin, of course, but I can't get past the database step on the install. Plus - a language string appears to be missing. JLIB_MAIL_FUNCTION_OFFLINE
I will look for an update - I am eager to see this, extension, beta, or live - it's a good step forward.
Good job everyone.
|Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Ines Llambias||9/11/13 9:44 AM|
I can be a volunteer for the testing team
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Paul Orwig||9/11/13 2:21 PM|
@All - If you have access to IE11, the app store developer team would greatly appreciate learning about more your app store test results using IE11!
Hi Ines,Thank you for volunteering to help with testing the app store! Please see my previous post in this thread for the link to download 3.2 alpha (be sure to get one of the packages that start with "Apps" in the filename). Once you have that installed, please test it thoroughly and then report your results in the links to the feature requests. Those links are also shared in my previous post in this thread (the links that start with joomlacode.org).
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Ines Llambias||9/11/13 2:39 PM|
Ok, I'm going to install IE11 to do the test. I let you know the results.
2013/9/11 Paul Orwig <paul....@opensourcematters.org>
|Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Mike Hamanaka||9/11/13 9:39 PM|
I have been following the threads on the concepts to improve extension distribution, and the feedback on the work, really very interesting reading, I have spent alot of time thinking about this. I'm sorry that I don't have more time to volunteer directly on this.
This thread was also about name ideas.
I think it would be a really neat name to assign, as a compliment to both the current/future JED and the JED team, and to the "app store" study group, and extension community in general.
My best suggestion is to name it for it's basic function, which I think the desired features are are to serve as a "depot"
cheers to everyone involved
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Markus Bopp||9/12/13 1:24 AM|
I tested the app store in 3.2 alpha and I think it is way too good and well presented to "hide" as the very last option somewhere in the Extension Manager. Besides content versioning to me it looks like this is the 2nd big new feature in Joomla!, so it should have a very prominent appearance in the CMS. The way it is made, it is even supporting the classic JED and I could imagine it would point even more users there, leading to more visitors in the directory. Please, if a name has been found, consider it to link as component menu item in backend as well as featured in the CMS dashboard.
Are there already some docs to test the installation routines from the app store installer? I would like to test that and give some feedback on this on the appropriate places.
Thanks for all the effort, 3.2 looks very promising and refreshing!
2013/9/12 Michael Hamanaka <hama...@gmail.com>
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||oc666||9/12/13 3:08 AM|
I must agree with Markus.
App Store (or what ever name it will have) - this is must be killer feature for 3.2 and even for 3 series. So we must take it into our marketing plan.
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Bakual||9/12/13 3:11 AM|
If you need a doc, then it's probably to complicate :-)
There are only a few extensions yet which support the direct installation. Community Builder (from Beat), Podcast Manager (from Michael) or SermonSpeaker (from me) are some examples which can be tested.
To my knowledge, only free extensions can be tested at the moment as the other types need a yet to be published plugin to support it.
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Michael Babker||9/12/13 3:18 AM|
I'll be the black sheep in the room. While it's an awesome feature to have, I agree with some of the reasons presented about why it wouldn't be heavily pushed by the marketing team. I think also we can highlight other new features that either fit a "proper" CMS workflow or are unique to Joomla. From what I can tell, we're the first CMS to have two-factor authentication as a core feature. Maybe it won't see as heavy use as the app store, but for those who take security serious on their websites, this will be absolutely welcome.
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Beat||9/12/13 4:43 AM|
No, there are no black sheeps in here. :-D Because there are no sheeps at all :-) We each have our own views and it's really great to have that diversity, very enlightening actually :-)
However I do agree that for 3.2.0, main highlight for marketing should stay the versions history, as it's a CMS, and that it is an important feature for a CMS.
We can always do marketing for other important features of Joomla 3.2 series at each subsequent dot release where there is even a slight improvement to one of the other features of 3.2.0. ;-)
That way we can blow the Joomla Marketing horn many times over the next months. One 3.2.0 nwe feature highlighted per subsequent dot release! E.g. Two-factor highlight in 3.2.1, Apps* in 3.2.2, RAD in 3.2.3, and so on. Even if not new, each feature will receive small improvements in dot releases, and that's enough to blow the horn on the whole feature, and raise the buzz around Joomla for the next 6 months :-) That's out of topic here, but I think it's a valid proposal for the last 2 posts in here ;-)
What do you think ? Maybe a new topic in the marketing discussions section of Joomla (where is that one?) would make sense ?
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||kisswebdesign||9/12/13 6:36 AM|
I second that thought. There are no sheep here.
One of the reasons that Joomla! has such a diverse appeal is because of the diversity of those involved with the project.
Debate, disagreements and agreements are what makes improvement and innovation possible - and there are plenty of all of them in the Joomla! community. I hope it carries on this way.
<humour>All together now.... I am not a sheep! </humour>
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Sully Sullivan||9/12/13 8:58 AM|
There is a Joomla! Marketing Team google group at: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/joomla-marketing; however, at its inception there was a lot blowback about yet another Joomla! group to watch and it has been very lightly used. There is also a forum at http://forum.joomla.org. Most work and discussion has been internal to the team and taking place on Skype. If anyone would like to volunteer for that team, please find my Skype nickname TerraceMedia and ask.
I think the idea of an official, seperately released "official" Joomla! Component offers some marketing advantages. It allows us to conduct a separate Marketing campaign for it in its own good time, with its own graphic collaterals, in a "full-court press" across social media, the JCM, our PR vendor Voxus, and blog pages without having to compete for attention with the rest of Joomla! 3.2's feature set. It seems from the discussion that there are significant search and developer participation issues to resolve. Afterwards, it could be rolled up into the Joomla! 3.5 distro. Give the idea some thought; I think it would good for the reasons Andrew suggested and perhaps the component could be launched at JWC in November and make some news.
|Re: [jcms] Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Andrew Eddie||9/12/13 3:08 PM|
On 13 September 2013 01:58, Sully Sullivan <su...@terracemedia.com> wrote:
That's an angle I hadn't thought of but it's a brilliant idea. What we need at the moment is time to pull all the loose ends into a tight package, not least of which is getting the extension developers on board (after all, they are *our* extensions).
|Re: request for name ideas and volunteers for Joomla "app store"||Dave||9/18/13 12:40 AM|
I would like to help with testing
BTW i'm new in the group so.. Hi at all :)