|An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Tim Fox||1/8/13 5:12 AM|
Dear Vert.x Community,
As many of you already know I left VMware at the end of December and started at Red Hat last week.
In the spirit of open source and as a commitment to the Vert.x community I had expected (perhaps naively) that VMware would continue to let me continue to administer the Vert.x project after I had left their employment.
On the 28th December I received a letter from VMware lawyers (delivered to my door in person, no less!) that I must immediately give up and transfer to VMware all administrative rights over the following things: The Vert.x github project, the Vert.x google group, the domain vertx.io and the Vert.x blog.
In response I proposed that VMware give me permission (i.e. grant a license) for me to continue to use the Vert.x trademark and domain after I left their employment. This proposal was refused.
There were further talks between VMW and RHT which failed to come to a better solution.
I am legally obliged to respect VMware's IP. Therefore to avoid litigation I have done the following:
1. Transfer ownership of the vertx domain to VMware
2. Transfer ownership of the Vert.x blog to VMware
3. Transfer ownership of the vert-x organisation in github to VMware
4. Transfer ownership of the vert.x Google Group to Vmware
This means I am no longer administrator of any of the above, although I am still able to "manage" the google group and commit to the projects under the vert-x umbrella.
I am very concerned about this turn of events, as I understand it creates uncertainty in the Vert.x community.
For now, I will continue leading the Vert.x community the best I can under these restrictions, but we, as a community need to consider what this means for the future of Vert.x and what is the best way to take the project forward.
I don't have the answers to that right now, but there are several options. I would like to make sure we have some kind of concensus in the community before jumping to a conclusion.
I am deeply committed to you as a community, and I would love to continue leading Vert.x, in one form or another, to the next generation. The 1.x series of Vert.x has stoked a huge amount of interest, and the future looks incredibly bright for 2.0. I am hugely excited about the opportunities there, and I believe that you share this excitement. 2013 is potentially a huge year for Vert.x, and I want to share that journey with you.
|Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||castarco||1/8/13 5:25 AM|
Sad news :( ,
then... maybe a fork? I think it won't be too traumatic .
|Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Russell Hart||1/8/13 5:31 AM|
It's not just a fork though, it would be a new domain, new Maven artefacts, new Google group..........
Is anyone from VMware being assigned to vert.x if they are now in charge of administering it?
|Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Fabrice Matrat||1/8/13 5:38 AM|
Hudson vs Jenkins.
At the end I use Jenkins and have no idea how Hudson did evolved.
|Re: [vertx:5748] Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Jettro Coenradie||1/8/13 5:44 AM|
Will someone else from vmware be responsible for the project. Someone that you can work with to maintain the community and the project? Legal stuff and Open source are not always friends. I hope you can work it out and keep the same energy for the project.
good luck and congrats with the new job
On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 2:25 PM, castarco <cast...@bananity.com> wrote:
Sad news :( ,
|Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||赵普明||1/8/13 5:44 AM|
在 2013年1月8日星期二UTC+8下午9时12分23秒，Tim Fox写道：
Could you list the options in your mind?
Just found that you are starting version 2.0, is that a big change compared to 1.x?
If so, maybe you could re-brand vert.x 2.0 into something new, with a name that starts with 'R' - V for VMware, R for Redhat :-)
Our company has already invested in vert.x (our new service is running using vert.x 1.2.3.final), so I'm a little concerned.
|Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Daryl Teo||1/8/13 6:17 AM|
I sincerely doubt the userbase of Vert.x reaches to that extent where a fork would be disasterous. Personally speaking anyway. Not when noone was really depending on VMWare for commercial support in the first place.
I am fully committed to this project, forked or not =) You have my support if you wish it.
|Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Tim Fox||1/8/13 6:57 AM|
The most obvious two options would be:
2) Find a neutral organisation (neither controlled by VMW or RHT) to host the organisation.
I think we need to explore both those options.
I wouldn't be too concerned. Vert.x is not going to disappear altogether.
However the project vehicle or governance model might change.
|Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Tim Fox||1/8/13 6:58 AM|
On Tuesday, 8 January 2013 14:57:52 UTC, Tim Fox wrote:
to host the organisation.
to host the *project*
|Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||vishvish||1/8/13 7:07 AM|
That's annoying, and heavy-handed. But good on you for your commitment.
A fork would be a great plan.
|Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Chen Wang||1/8/13 7:11 AM|
I've always been a quiet observer of the project but thanks for detailing the situation Tim. I personally would prefer an independent, open source friendly organisation such as Apache Software Foundation to be the host of the project but I understand that being accepted by ASF would require time and effort. I think keeping things as it is (co-managing it with VMware) is not mutually exclusive to finding an organisation to host it, or even hosting the fork instead of the original if there are legal hurdles, i.e. you should be able to start the search right now but keep the normal project development going until the picture is clearer.
|Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Gray Herter||1/8/13 7:25 AM|
+1 Fork it.
|Re: [vertx:5758] Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Tom Carchrae||1/8/13 7:36 AM|
[obvious/redundant consolatory statement] - Ouch. As much as I am
grateful that VMware have paid you to work on vert.x this throws that
community good will in the dust. I'm not asking you to comment on
what kind of confused person does not 'get it', but I'm glad to hear
you will keep working on vert.x (or 'the project formerly known as
vert.x'). And I'm still appreciative of the time/money VMware spent
to date, but if VMware are simply kicking you out of the project, then
they are acting childish - it might be different if they had an actual
plan, but AFAIK, you are the team, so they are essentially trying to
put a bullet in it. I don't blame them for being disappointed at
losing a developer like you, but really, how does this help matters.
Anyway, f*ckin suits..
[perhaps useful suggestion] Might I respectfully suggest that you
contact the lead on some other open source projects and get some
guidance on this. Perhaps you've already done this. I think you're
right, the game is nowhere near up. Worst case, you re-brand it and
move on. If you do re-brand, please don't put a period in the name!
As a matter of immediate importance, I suggest you set up an alternate
google group to discuss the future, so that the community can
subscribe to it, should whatever misguided persons that are now in
control decide to shut the current forum down.
|Re: [vertx:5760] Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Nate McCall||1/8/13 7:36 AM|
Agreed. We (Apigee) have made an investment in vert.x already as well.
IMO, a fork which is a package name/maven coordinate change is not
terribly traumatic and worth the effort to given the heavy handed
tactics of VMware.
Protecting investment is one thing, but doing so in a distasteful and
alienating way the community is another.
With the size/activity level of the community here, fast-tracking into
the Apache Software Foundation's incubator would be easy. Happy to
help on this if needed.
On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 9:25 AM, Gray Herter <gray....@gmail.com> wrote:
> +1 Fork it.
|Re: [vertx:5761] Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Tupshin Harper||1/8/13 7:38 AM|
|Re: [vertx:5761] Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Daryl Teo||1/8/13 7:45 AM|
Before we start going around pointing fingers and assigning boogiemen, would there be any official statement available from VMWare, as there should be in these kinds of situations?
|Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Oliver Rolle||1/8/13 7:49 AM|
+1 fork till a the project has a neutral new home.
|Re: [vertx:5761] Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Andy Piper||1/8/13 7:54 AM|
|Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Anatoly Geyfman||1/8/13 8:03 AM|
As another commenter mentioned, sounds like a similar situation as Hudson/Jenkins. We ended up going with Jenkins as well, no issues there, other than a little bit of headache upgrading servers. Sounds like it's a convenient for the project to go through this change, before the big 2.0 release to create a stable, scalable foundation for this project to continue without a corporate overlord potentially using it without consideration for its users.
Codehaus is a nice place as well, of course there is the Apache foundation.
I am interested in what VMWare thinks of all of this. VMWare is now the owner of several super-high profile java frameworks/tools (Spring, Grails, Groovy), and this type of action is discouraging.
|Re: [vertx:5767] Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Stéphane Maldini||1/8/13 8:06 AM|
Hudson/Jenkins was another beast its nothing similar :(
|Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Asher Tarnopolski||1/8/13 8:18 AM|
tim, good luck @ rht!
were you the only one in vmw working on vertx?
if this is the case, then it doesn't really matter what vmw's plans are. new folks will bring a different vision, different philosophy and different priorities.
|Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Agustín Ramos Fonseca||1/8/13 8:19 AM|
I think an independently managed project is a much healthier choice.
If necessary, crowdfunding should work.
Tim, thank you very much for your commitment to this project.
|Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Simon P. Lucy||1/8/13 9:51 AM|
If there's a determination by the community to fork (if VMWare decide not to provide alternative administration), then I'd recommend talking with the Apache Incubator group at gen...@incubator.apache.org
|Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||castarco||1/8/13 9:54 AM|
Which are the benefits of include a fork of Vert.x in the Apache Incubator? I like the idea of a fork, but I haven't a well formed opinion about project host options...
|Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Steve Morin||1/8/13 9:55 AM|
Unless VMware provides a clear commitment to support the Vert.x community I would fork
|Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Steve Morin||1/8/13 9:56 AM|
Is Redhat committing to supporting Vert.x?
On Tuesday, January 8, 2013 5:12:23 AM UTC-8, Tim Fox wrote:
|Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Simon P. Lucy||1/8/13 10:00 AM|
On Tuesday, January 8, 2013 5:54:21 PM UTC, castarco wrote:
Its the entry path into the Apache Software Foundation and is more than a hosting option it provides complete organizational, legal and financial support which is why it needs something like the Incubator process to validate projects. One of those validations is that it has a viable community.
http://incubator.apache.org is where you can find out more.
|Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||bytor99999||1/8/13 10:16 AM|
Not to defend VMWare. But any company would do this. And if you work for any company you will probably see in your contract or employee handbook that any projects/ideas/inventions that you create while working for that company, during company hours is the property of the company and not the person.
I don't know if vert.x started up before Tim joined VMWare, but if it was started while Tim was at VMWare and VMWare paid Tim specifially for this project, then unfortunately, it does belong to VMWare.
Now with all that note.
I am totally +1 on a fork. I still think it should be hosted on GitHub with a simple Apache license. No need to be an official Apache or Codehaus project.
If there is a fork, it is really, extremely important to us that it is done very quickly. I am very worried as we staked a big part of our company on vert.x and if there isn't a resolution really soon, we might be forced to have to not use vert.x Even though I hope more than anything we don't have to do something as drastic as changing.
Thanks Tim and the rest of the community for all your hard work on vert.x it is greatly appreciated.
|Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Tim Fox||1/8/13 10:35 AM|
IANAL, but some things are very clearly VMMware's IP as per my employment contract (domain, blog, vert.x trademark, my code contributions). Other claims are most likely frivolous (claim to the github project *itself*, or the google group *itself* (i.e. not the contents)).
HOWEVER I complied with all demands since I have no appetite for litigation with them. My complying with their demands does not imply that I think they were all valid though.
As to "any company would do this": That's not really true. A good example of a company that _did not_ take search a path in a similar situation is Red Hat, when the project lead of Netty left RHT to join another company. Instead RHT chose to let him continue to use the name and domain after he had left the company. Now that project is a great success and has full time employees working on it from both RHT and the other company.
A fork is an option, but we should review all possibilities first. A neutral org does have some positive points, and VMW does seem to be amenable to such a solution. We shouldn't jump to any conclusions yet.
And thanks Mark for your contributions - I hope they will continue :)
|Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||boon kiat han||1/8/13 10:36 AM|
OSS once again prevails over commercial interests in the sense that the development of this awesome platform need not fear code lock up.
VMWare needs to send a very strong signal to the community very, very soon if it wants to 'step up to the plate' and help make this a kick-ass open source JVM realtime async service titan
or attempt to bend it into another portfolio products (i.e.: the infamous Hudson/Jenkins scenario which frankly wound up with Hudson being discarded to OSS anyways)
Any feet-dragging or wish-washy statement imho will KILL this project.
|Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Norman Maurer||1/8/13 11:35 AM|
Am Dienstag, 8. Januar 2013 15:57:52 UTC+1 schrieb Tim Fox:
Not sure you really need to find a neutral org. We don't have any for Netty and it works out quite well. Just have a org on github with the project under it worked out without any problem.
If you want I can share the Netty CLA with you that we set up in the past..
|Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Norman Maurer||1/8/13 11:37 AM|
Exactly and there are also a lot of other contributors in Netty now.. So I don't see why they act in such an aggressive way..
Well if that is the easiest way to reach some solution it might be the best to "just" do it.
|Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||James Hardwick||1/8/13 3:29 PM|
+10000000 on this as well. The sooner the better.
|Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Michael Van Geertruy||1/8/13 3:41 PM|
+1 on a seperately managed group. Alternatively, why not make Vert.x an apache software foundation project?
Committer, Apache Software Foundation
|Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Joern Bernhardt||1/8/13 5:01 PM|
we decided to use Vert.x over NodeJS because it's still a growing project and we have plenty of ways to give back: By contributing code, add documentation/blog posts/resources, help answering questions on the mailing list/IRC and things like that. When I read your post, I thought all of that might be lost. I just hope that one of the presented alternatives will work out very soon.
If you decide for a fork or separately managed group, we will definitely adapt to the path you are taking. Please try to decide soon, but don't forget to get any needed permission from your new employer. Even though RHT might be more laid back in terms of supporting OSS (from what I read in this group and on Twitter about this announcement): I doubt they are going to support Vert.x in the long run if they don't have some kind of real return value. Do they use it in production in some projects? Do they get copyrights/trademarks?
Our start-up project relies heavily on your code and we want to continue using it. That being said, we will continue contributing to support you and your project as best as we can.
Personally, I would favor a separated OSS group, if that means that they help the project if you or your employer retires from Vert.x and attract more core contributors to the project. If you want to go with a simple fork under a new name, I hope to see more contributors in the near future, to be sure this project will be supported in the long run.
|Re: [vertx:5747] An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Alex Tkachman||1/8/13 9:54 PM|
After giving some thoughts to it I think the best for community would be if both RHT and VMW will support moving project under Apache Foundation.
On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 3:12 PM, Tim Fox <timv...@gmail.com> wrote:
|Re: [vertx:5747] An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Asher Tarnopolski||1/9/13 12:06 AM|
alex, the only problem is that vmw doesn't want it to be done this way. although, there was no indication in tim's post about rht willingness to pay him for dealing with vert.x .
|Re: [vertx:5785] An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Tim Fox||1/9/13 12:13 AM|
That's not necessarily the case. VMW may be amenable to a long term solution where the code is in a neutral foundation. But it needs more discussion.alex, the only problem is that vmw doesn't want it to be done this way.
To clarify: RHT will be paying me to work on Vert.x full-time (or whatever it ends up being called, if it has to be renamed) during my employment there.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/vertx/-/FdGcuzOU8c8J.
|Re: [vertx:5785] An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Guillaume Laforge||1/9/13 12:17 AM|
Interesting how people point finger at VMware and think they know what VMware wants or doesn't.
I've heard RHT and VMW are preparing a joint answer to reassure everybody that both companies want the success of the project and both want to contribute to its development in the best interest of the community.
So let's all be patient and not judge anybody without knowing the whole story :-)
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/vertx/-/FdGcuzOU8c8J.
Groovy Project Manager
SpringSource, a division of VMware
|Re: [vertx:5747] An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Matthew Kaufman||1/9/13 12:30 AM|
Note: this is my 1st post to group; I don't usually participate publically; but yes....
Put it under Apache Foundation so Japan and China and Every Other Country can conduct Industrial Espionage that much easier and surpass this shit as well as the chips that Huawei and other dangers can put to us.....
however you spel that stupid company.t
Screw the apache foundation; congrats to vert.x project and anyone that put work into it and isn't working yet or lives here yet today that wants to still be a part of it and congrats to VMWARE ;-).
If you're pissed off, and had a stake in it; ask for a visa and salary and job and relocation... whats the big deal.
why dont people like commercialization
|Re: [vertx:5785] An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Asher Tarnopolski||1/9/13 12:40 AM|
this is exactly the problem. we point fingers BECAUSE we don't know what you do or doesn't want.
the only way vmw addressed this community till now was through the legal threats to tim described above.
|Re: [vertx:5790] An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Pid||1/9/13 12:53 AM|
Asher, that's hardly fair.
I appreciate that it's difficult to take a circumspect view when there's only one piece of information out there. Big companies are often slow to respond simply because of the number people involved.
I hope the formal statement will be published soon and then we can listen to the community's views and continue the conversation.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/vertx/-/ZhAA9hbvFzQJ.
|Re: [vertx:5785] An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Jez P||1/9/13 12:58 AM|
I think that the reason fingers were pointed was because there was no effort at communication by VMWare whatsoever beyond their private dealings with Tim, so those were the only actions people had on which to make judgments. It would have made more sense for someone representing VMWare to post on the google group outlining the reasoning behind the requests (demands) made of Tim as well as the plan going forward.
That said, I would say that VMWare has been pretty good as regards OSS. I think though that a lot of us would like a bit more clarity as to what the vision is (near and long-term) for vert.x assuming that VMWare will be driving that vision.
|Re: [vertx:5790] An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Asher Tarnopolski||1/9/13 12:59 AM|
pid, i share your hope :)
|Re: [vertx:5790] An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Guillaume Laforge||1/9/13 1:00 AM|
On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 9:40 AM, Asher Tarnopolski <ata...@gmail.com> wrote:
Note that I'm not representing VMware here, I'm just speaking with my own personal voice :-)
RHT and VMW are currently in discussions, and VMW is waiting for RHT's agreement on the message to send to the community. So the ball is currently in the RHT camp.
It's an error to disclose anything here till the agreement between the companies are done as it makes the whole community worry, although there's no reason to.
I had advised Tim to wait before sending such an email, as it'll make the community worry without sane reasons, and I was right, as that's what happened :-(
Everyone now thinks VMW is evil and says bad things about VMW, although it funded the creation and development of Vert.x and *does* want to continue helping the project and letting it prosper and evolve to the benefit of the whole community.
You only heard Tim's vision of the story and you're making judgements without knowing the whole situation or all the details of what happened.
Rest assured that both RHT and VMW want the project to be successful and the community to be happy.
So it makes me sad to see people so vehemently say bad things about VMW because of this worrisome biased email to the community :-(
Big companies take time to agree on things, so let's all be patient, please!
The joint RHT / VMW message will come, once RHT is happy with the message.
|Re: [vertx:5792] An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Guillaume Laforge||1/9/13 1:08 AM|
On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 9:58 AM, Jez P <mr.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
VMW hasn't communicated yet because they wait for RHT's feedback on what they both jointly will say soon.
The ball is in RHT's camp for now.
Big companies are slow at remote tennis games, without even mentioning the holiday breaks and the time zone differences...
By the way I'm not sure the companies should give such information, as it's private discussions between them.
All I can say is that both companies are currently discussing.
VMW wants to have their message the soonest out, but we're waiting to hear from the RHT folks in the Pacific time zone, so it's taking time :-(
I also believe VMware's been good with OSS, as they've allowed nice ecosystems to propser (think Spring, Groovy, Grails, RabbitMQ, etc) and they sincerly want Vert.x community and project to thrive.
So please guys be patient for the official statement.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/vertx/-/EuEmrm8zHNoJ.
|Re: [vertx:5793] An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Tim Fox||1/9/13 1:17 AM|
That is not correct. The post I made is RHT's point of view, it is _not_ my personal opinion, and was fully approved and vetted by RHT before it went out.
Any other joint post today will be a clarification of that.
That is not my understanding of why there is a delay right now.
|Re: [vertx:5786] An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Alex Tkachman||1/9/13 1:53 AM|
Guilaume, it's fair enough what you and Pid say except big companies (and I point finger to both and all others) have big history of screwing community as good as contribute a lot to community.
Just please make sure that people involved in VmWare are aware that community is pissed and worried.
And maybe Tim been too fast to make all this crap public. But from my prospective always better to be aware and try to influence final resolution as strong as community could.
|Re: [vertx:5788] An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Alex Tkachman||1/9/13 1:56 AM|
Sorry, I did not understand a word you wrote.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/vertx/-/WJ93LHihzUEJ.
|Re: [vertx:5796] An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Pid||1/9/13 1:59 AM|
On 09/01/2013 09:53, Alex Tkachman wrote:They are.
> <mailto:glaf...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> <mailto:ata...@gmail.com>> wrote:> domain vertx.io <http://vertx.io> and the Vert.x blog.
> To post to this group, send an email to> vertx+un...@__googlegroups.com.
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> For more options, visit this group at[key:62590808]
|Re: [vertx:5793] An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Tim Fox||1/9/13 2:12 AM|
We put out an announcement because VMW forced our hand. I was under a legal obligation to return their "IP" immediately, and could delay no further. I asked for an extension to this delay so we could discuss _sensibly_, but this was refused.
The sensible path for VMW would have been to hold back the lawyers until a proper agreement could (or could not) be reached, but VMW decided not to take that path.
Since I had to carry out their demands _without further delay_ and those actions required changing the administrative controller of the project then I had a duty as project lead to tell the community.
I have users who have staked their projects on Vert.x and they need to know when important changes in the control/administration of the project occur so they can make informed assessments of any perceived risk.
If I was to hide such important changes from the community I would be in dereliction of my duties as project lead.
|Re: [vertx:5799] An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Alex Tkachman||1/9/13 2:47 AM|
Fair enough. If you been forced to pass control immediately you had to inform community
|Re: [vertx:5800] An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Nate McCall||1/9/13 6:31 AM|
RHAT and VMWare: right now you are *both* doing it wrong.
Both Tim and Pid have done well by me in terms of communicating status
at the developer level - I'm very thankful for that.
However, from them, we now know that there are negotiations going on
between the corporate entities *not* in the open *without* input from
the community with potentially substantial ramifications on end-users.
Obviously not everyone needs to be involved with everything, but the
continued "official" silence from both companies is unacceptable.
Both those companies have contributed a lot to the community over the
years on a number of different projects. I've come to know some folks
personally from both companies on the engineering and community
management side and my hackles are up because I know that both those
organizations usually run much tighter ships than this with regards to
managing their projects (Groovy and the evolution of Netty being
Given this, I can't help but think there is something else going on.
But, as other people have rightly pointed out, it's all conjecture -
particularly without any attempts at official involvement or
communication from either camp.
I *eagerly* await an official response. We've recently staked a lot on vertx.
|Re: [vertx:5793] An important announcement to the Vert.x community||bytor99999||1/9/13 7:44 AM|
And this is exactly where we stand, and there are millions of dollars that could be at stake, and we are already being affected by this. It is important that we can make decisions on this quickly.
As someone in the rare position of having worked for both companies as a full time employee and as a contractor, and loving both companies, I know something will be worked out. At this time, I think we should just wait till we hear what happens and not jump to conclusions, like I had earlier.
|Re: [vertx:5747] An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Mark Little||1/9/13 9:52 AM|
What Tim has stated has obviously raised concerns on this group and elsewhere. So it's important that we try to allay any fears and uncertainty that the community has about the vert.x project and state clearly that VMware and Red Hat are still very much in active discussion regarding how best to support the vert.x project going forwards. This is something that both companies are extremely keen to do.
We've been discussing various options, including whether to move the project to an open source software foundation, and would very much like to hear the views of the community.
Tim's continued status as project lead is something that both companies feel is an essential component to the success of the project. We see no reason for this to change and wish to assure everyone on that point.
With the benefit of the support from *both* Red Hat and VMware we agree that the vert.x project has an excellent opportunity to continue to build on its popularity and successes to date and have an exciting 2013.
We'd really appreciate if everyone was patient and continued to contribute positively to the discussions on the future in this public forum, as has been the case. Many thanks to all of the input - it has not gone unnoticed.
For RedHat: Mark Little, VP Red Hat/JBoss.
For VMware: Alexis Richardson, Senior Director, VMware Inc.
|Re: [vertx:5747] An important announcement to the Vert.x community||bytor99999||1/9/13 10:05 AM|
Very cool Mark and Alexis. Thank you so much for posting this.
|Re: [vertx:5805] An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Nate McCall||1/9/13 10:11 AM|
Awesome - thanks for the clarifications.
To move forward, I'm a big fan of Apache Software Foundation. I said
this way further up, but moving into incubation there given the size
and (now obvious) passion of the community would be straightforward.
|Re: [vertx:5747] An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Bob McWhirter||1/9/13 10:17 AM|
Thank you, Mark.
I'd like to add that I believe Tim's statement of the facts as they occurred was, well, factual. I read his initial statement before he posted it, and I approved of it. I know for certain that Tim's interest is in doing what's best for the community, first and foremost. It is this belief in open-source and the principles of community that make me proud to have Tim on our team. Uncertainty exists in an informational vacuum, and Tim attempted to fill the space with the facts that were available to him. I hope that we (Red Hat and VMware) can continue to find a way to ensure Tim's leadership and vision of the project, be it through a foundation, such as the Apache Software Foundation or Eclipse Foundation, or through other means. The community has certainly offered some insight into its desires, and I hope it continues to voice it's opinions, concerns and thoughts.
|Re: [vertx:5805] An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Pid||1/9/13 10:31 AM|
On 09/01/2013 17:52, Mark Little wrote:Thanks Mark!
|Re: [vertx:5747] An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Joern Bernhardt||1/9/13 10:40 AM|
Thanks for the post - in my opinion, this is the best option. If there was a fork, we would miss contributions by pid and other VMware members. Don't forget that we still wait for the Vert.x scala mod ;)
I just hope Tim did not get too frustrated and demotivated by the latest events. As long as he continues to lead (t)his project, I'm very confident everything works out well.
|Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Nicholas Hagen||1/9/13 11:31 AM|
-1 for moving to Apache...as much as I love Apache's software and OSS model and all the great libraries that come out of Apache, I do not feel like vert.x is a fit for Apache. The Apache license, sure, but the actual incubating and project status, no. Apache has always seemed to me as a great place for libraries, not standalone applications/servers (one could argue vert.x as a library, but it's more of a container than a library).
To fork or to not fork depends purely on the joint agreement of RedHat and VMWare and no decision can really be made until we know more about where both companies stand and the agreements they reach. Regardless, +1 to keep it on GitHub as an independent organization and open source project, similar to how Netty has moved from JBoss to its own organization. Ultimately, it takes $$ to finance the project, hence companies like Apache, VMW, and RHT, but ultimately the community will back an independent project and keep it running.
Above all, congratulations on Tim on his move to RedHat and I hope the change is for the best. Thanks for VMWare for their paid support of OSS, not only on vert.x, but for continuing the success of other OSS including Spring, Grails, Groovy, etc. Thanks to both VMWare and RedHat for being open-minded and working through this process (ignoring the suits and lawyers from that picture). vert.x is not going anywhere as long as the community backs it. This is just a wrinkle in the picture which will soon be replaced by much more success and great features. Here's to seeing 2.0 come to great fruition!
|Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Aaron Franco||1/9/13 2:12 PM|
+1 on the Fork
|Re: [vertx:5817] Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Pid||1/9/13 2:30 PM|
On 09/01/2013 22:12, Aaron Franco wrote:
> +1 on the Fork
Please read Mark Little's post on this thread.
|Re: [vertx:5867] Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Michael Van Geertruy||1/9/13 2:48 PM|
I read Mark's input as RedHat and VMWare would be supportive of whatever
option the community decided to do. Their primary objective was to
allay any fears that "corporate" concerns would override the needs of
the community. That said, if you look what Hudson did after Oracle's
acquisition of Sun, especially after Oracle made similar statements to
what VMWare/RedHat made, it may be worth putting thought into forking
and making Vert.x truly open source.
It may also be worth identifying what is truly in the best interest of
the community in the long-run, and whether forking supports those goals
or if keeping Vert.x' infrastructure as it stands makes sense.
|Re: [vertx:5860] Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Michael Van Geertruy||1/9/13 2:56 PM|
In the interest of providing information, the Apache Software Foundation hosts both library projects (eg. Apache Commons) and several high-use enterprise class applications and servers (Geronimo, Karaf, ServiceMix, etc). In fact, the "flagship" project of the ASF is the Apache Web-Server, still the most used web-server in the world today.
Many projects choose to use Github to source-code version control (Kalumet is the first example of many that comes to mind). As such, having a project on the ASF and using Git won't pose any issues. Also, projects participating in the incubator process in ASF are assigned mentors who work hard to ensure issues like this are smoothed over fairly quickly and with minimal impact to the project.
--You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "vert.x" group.To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/vertx/-/3qzW8gDnfcwJ.
|Re: [vertx:5819] Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Pid||1/9/13 2:59 PM|
On 09/01/2013 22:48, GMail wrote:I think that an outcome that involves the minimum disruption, a single
community and the support of both companies is preferable and achievable.
|Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Dimitri Hautot||1/9/13 3:24 PM|
(just joined the project after reading the whole set of messages)
May I suggest to stay calm for a couple of hours/days, take a step back, have a walk, ...
You all just have been wished a great new year, so don't screw it up too early!
Both VMW and RHT have always been nice with OSS, so give them the time to have an agreed common answer.
Until then... have a nap! ;-)
|Re: [vertx:5821] Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Stéphane Maldini||1/9/13 3:25 PM|
|Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Jim Jagielski||1/9/13 3:37 PM|
Tim and community,
If seriously interested in moving to the ASF, let me know. I'd love to answer any questions you may have.
And yes, even in this day and age, having FOSS projects hosted in neutral foundations make a lot of sense, for the exact kind of reasons you see here. It allows, but mostly ensures, that the community are masters of their own fate.
On Tuesday, January 8, 2013 9:57:52 AM UTC-5, Tim Fox wrote:
|Re: [vertx:5819] Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Andy Piper||1/9/13 4:29 PM|
+1 on all points.
Happy to facilitate conversations with OSS foundations I'm connected to, *if* that's a useful thing; regardless, I'll continue to work with Pid and others at VMware on how we contribute going forward.
|Re: [vertx:5818] Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Tim Fox||1/10/13 12:02 AM|
On 09/01/13 22:30, Pid wrote:Please don't be so dismissive.
A fork is a valid option that needs to be discussed. It hasn't been
ruled out yet.
|Re: [vertx:5835] Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Pid||1/10/13 12:46 AM|
I was responding to a latecomer who replied to your initial post. As
the official statement is some way down the thread I thought it was fair
to point it out.
Nothing dismissive about that & clearly no reference to 'fork'.
|Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||davem||1/10/13 3:20 AM|
a) path of least resistance right now,
b) keeps all other options open,
c) vert.x could use re-branding irrespective of this mess
|Re: [vertx:5835] An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Mark Little||1/10/13 3:44 AM|
In the interests of completeness, someone else on this thread mentioned the Eclipse Foundation as another possible home. I'm also Red Hat's primary representative on the JCP EC and the Eclipse representative, Mike Milinkovich, has sent the following materials for those people interested in understanding that Eclipse is not just about the IDE these days. Both Red Hat and VMWare work in a number of Eclipse projects, so it's somewhere we have experience and I feel it could be a good home for vert.x.
· Reliable infrastructure
o 99.98% uptime for the last five years
o We have moved everything over to git. We are now completely committed as a community to git.
o We have full-time IT staff to support our core services.
· Additional services
o We offer a common build infrastructure that all projects are welcome to use. Makes it a lot easier to get your new project’s builds going.
§ Supported by a full-time build engineer
o Gerrit is offered as a core service, available to all projects.
o All the usual stuff: bugzilla, wiki, mailing lists, user forums, ….
o Better support for Maven and Nexus coming soon….
o As a community, we embrace pragmatism over dogma.
o Projects can ask for Board approval for alternate licenses
§ Many Eclipse projects are dual-licensed EPL+BSD or EPL+ALv2
§ Several projects are BSD-only
o Within the general scope of the Eclipse development and IP processes, projects are free to create their own processes and culture. Lots of flexibility is built in, and we don’t try to enforce culture.
· Clear processes
o All of our development processes are documented and described, and revisions happen transparently and via a clear process. Openness, transparency and meritocracy are the fundamental values inherent in our processes.
o We have full-time staff to help projects get started, and to guide them whenever required.
o Best-of-breed IP due diligence (a huge help in commercial and enterprise adoption)
o Project leadership is clear and recognized.
o All roles (committers, project leaders, etc.) are independent of employment status.
o Initial committer lists and project leader(s) are decided by the project proposers, and the existing community does not get to add to that list. Even key community leaders can only join a new or existing project by following the full meritocratic process.
· Community reach
o Millions of developers use Eclipse
o Hundreds of companies build products based on Eclipse technologies.
o Eclipse runtime community large and growing
§ Ref: projects like Jetty, Equinox and Virgo are widely used and respected
o There is very strong communication and co-ordination between projects. As least for the ones that want it.
o Have shipped the Eclipse simultaneous release on-time to the day for 9 years. (To be clear, projects choose whether they want to join. Participation is not mandated.)
· Vendor neutral
o All of our processes and values are based on the notion that Eclipse must be free of vendor control. Openness, transparency and meritocracy ensure that this is the case.
|Re: [vertx:5835] An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Alexis Richardson||1/10/13 3:58 AM|
Thanks for posting this. I'm not very familiar with ESF but have heard good things from others in the community. Certainly that list sounds like a fit for vert.x.
Please could you cross-post this note to the new thread that Tim started this morning?
|Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Henri Gomez||1/10/13 4:44 AM|
>-1 for moving to Apache...as much as I love Apache's software and OSS model and all the great libraries that come out of Apache, I do not feel like vert.x is a fit for >Apache. The Apache license, sure, but the actual incubating and project status, no. Apache has always seemed to me as a great place for libraries, not >standalone applications/servers (one could argue vert.x as a library, but it's more of a container than a library).Not a great place for standalone applications/servers ? You're kidding ?
Do you know HTTPd ? Did you miss Tomcat ? What about ActiveMQ ? What about Cassandra ? Camel ? Apache DS ?
Please take a look here, http://projects.apache.org/indexes/category.html, there is much more than libraires in ASF.
|[vertx:5842] Discussion: The future of the Vert.x project||Mark Little||1/10/13 4:48 AM|
|Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Shea Bennett||1/11/13 6:41 PM|
+1 Fork...so it can't happen again...
|Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Eloanne NJ||1/14/13 10:53 AM|
I was about invest and to build products around that Architecture. But now, after reading that I'm holding back to switch.
Please simply don't kill that work of art, think beyond $$$
|Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||bytor99999||1/15/13 7:31 AM|
For those posting late to this thread. Please read the more recent thread discussing the future Discussion: The future of the Vert.x project
That thread is what is currently going on, so eloan… You wouldn't be thinking about holding back.
|Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Kevin McCaughey||2/11/13 3:50 AM|
Another Open Source project killed by big business. Shame on Vmware - authors won't touch it now, it's as good as dead and buried. I thought Oracle were bad but VMWare take the biscuit. I won't be touching anything VMWare have their mitts on in future.
|Re: [vertx:6840] Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Pid||2/11/13 3:56 AM|
That's not an accurate description of the situation.
Please take the time to read the subsequent threads. Vert.x is now headed for the Eclipse Foundation and fortunately Tim is very much still involved and working hard on v2.0.
|Re: [vertx:6840] Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Kevin McCaughey||2/11/13 4:02 AM|
I've managed to find info on it now thanks - but I still think this brings up a serious issue for open source. Anyone working for VMware etc on an "open source" project mean that the license is actually not valid - they can claim it was done whilst in their employ and good luck finding a lawyer to fight that one. VMware gave in this time (suggest announcement on Eclipse a rather than read through 80 replies) but there are a LOT of other projects in the same boat with people employed who work on "open source" projects.
Sorry for the hasty reply initially but I was taking my cue from a tweet I got.
|Re: [vertx:6842] Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Pid||2/11/13 4:04 AM|
On 11/02/2013 12:02, Kevin McCaughey wrote:No worries. Just didn't want you to be put off the project by old news.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out>> <https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out>.
|Re: [vertx:6842] Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Cédric Champeau||2/11/13 4:09 AM|
Le 11/02/2013 13:02, Kevin McCaughey a �crit :
> I've managed to find info on it now thanks - but I still think thisOpen-source doesn't mean do what you want (unless the license is WTFPL).
You can be open-source and still own IP, that's two different beasts and
that's the whole discussion here. Moving to Eclipse is a decision on IP
more than a decision on open source and taking such decisions take time.
|Re: [vertx:6842] Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Jez P||2/12/13 7:03 AM|
To be fair (and I've been critical of VMWare earlier in this story over the way I saw their handling of this whole situation),
VMWare didn't "give in" as regards the license (and there's no evidence in discussions above that they resisted the move to a foundation, so I'm not sure where the concept of "giving in" comes from). I didn't see anything in Tim's original post (may have missed subsequent ones) which ever suggested that VMWare might be trying to exert control over the source codebase. Much as I would say VMWare were possibly a little heavy-handed initially, that heavy-handedness was restricted to essentially administrative elements.
The move to Eclipse makes very good sense as a mechanism for avoiding administrative wrangling in future. However, portraying this story as some kind of "Big Business vs Open Source" fight is quite a misrepresentation.
On Monday, February 11, 2013 12:09:11 PM UTC, Cédric Champeau wrote:
Le 11/02/2013 13:02, Kevin McCaughey a ï¿½crit :
|Re: [vertx:6842] Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||Igor Akulov||5/2/13 10:13 AM|
|Re: [vertx:6842] Re: An important announcement to the Vert.x community||bytor99999||5/2/13 1:19 PM|
Isn't this thread already stale, finished, cease to exist. IS NO MORE?
We are well past this, so no need to drag in the past, time to move along, nothing to see here.