|Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Ryan Fugger||11/28/12 1:21 PM|
I'm happy to announce that there is finally a team seriously building
a distributed Ripple network at Ripple.com. The team is led by
founder Jed McCaleb, who also founded the MtGox Bitcoin exchange and
created eDonkey2000, and CEO Chris Larsen, founder of Prosper.com.
I've been talking to Jed, Chris and other members of their team over
the past few months, and while their plan is very ambitious, I believe
if anyone can develop the Ripple concept on a global scale, they can.
Their system is based on a Bitcoin-style blockchain, much as we have
discussed here over the last few years as an interesting possibility,
but with a novel miner-less consensus mechanism that allows
transactions to be confirmed nearly instantaneously.
After discussions with Jed's team, and some long-standing members of
the Ripple community, I've agreed that Jed's project should use the
name Ripple and be considered our primary implementation. It was hard
for me to let others step in to this role, but from the beginning I
always intended for someone else to implement the concept, and I'm
lucky to have finally found a group that is more than worthy of taking
the project to the next level.
Please check out http://ripple.com, sign up for the beta if you're
interested, and watch for the launch coming soon...
|Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Sepp Hasslberger||11/29/12 8:55 AM|
Great news Ryan,
I am happy to see that someone with a serious idea to get this rolling is stepping into your shoes and will take the Ripple concept further - hopefully to a very useful implementation.
And good for you for letting this happen in a smooth way...
|Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||dwilliams||11/29/12 11:14 AM|
A few questions:
* Is it a decentralized solution?
* Does the user have control over who is able to see their transaction data (I'm guessing no if it's a blockchain approach)?
* Does the potential user have any inkling of how their transaction data, metadata, and out-of-band data can be used to make inferences about them that they'd rather not be public information? There has been at least one academic study of these dangers wrt Bitcoin, so if this Ripple/BTC hybrid doesn't take this into account it's irresponsible to say the least.
Also, consider the following:
1 public physical mailing address gets x unsolicited messages where x is bounded by nonzero cost of sending 1 message
2 email lowers cost of sending messages to nearly zero
3 x becomes practically unbounded
1 commercial banks extend credit where y is bounded by the nonzero cost of getting a loan
2 Ripple lowers the cost of extending credit to practically zero
3 y becomes practically unbounded
x is obviously "spam". My point is that while you've defined the benefits that could stand in for "y" on the Ripple website, you haven't outlined the costs. What are they in your view? (Keep in mind they aren't the same costs as those of BTC which does not need to leverage human trust in order to facilitate transactions.)
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Ryan Fugger||11/29/12 12:01 PM|
On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 11:14 AM, dwilliams <dudewi...@gmail.com> wrote:Yes.
Good question. No, all transaction data is public, which is probably
the main drawback to this approach. It is the tradeoff required to
have a system in which is extremely resilient to denial of service
attacks (since all machines process all transactions, attacking a few
of them accomplishes nothing). In contrast, my two-phase commit
design offers more privacy (although some credit information needs to
be exposed to achieve good routing performance), at the cost of being
more vulnerable to DoS (since only my server processes my
The way to achieve privacy in blockchain Ripple is to act through a
proxy, which is called a nexus, and direct the nexus to make and
receive payments on your behalf. Unfortunately, while your funds are
at the nexus, they are not available for you to use to enable through
transactions at your personal node, so it's a bit of a tradeoff. But
in the general case, where you have some excess funds not required for
through transactions, it should be fairly straightforward to keep
funds at one or more nexuses for long enough to avoid having your
private transactions linked to you through the timing of transfers to
and from the nexus, especially if the nexus is busy.
It's not a perfect solution, and I still would like to develop my
two-phase commit design for applications requiring greater privacy. I
can even envision the two systems being linked up in various ways.
But in either system, there will be a need for continued development
of privacy schemes as more sophisticated attacks emerge, much as
occurs in Tor. And neither system will offer complete privacy, except
to those who forego their ability to act as an intermediary, and
choose to operate completely through proxies/nexuses.
There are also potential social benefits to openness, like the ability
to build a strong public reputation by one's behaviour in the network.
I'm quite interested to see how these develop in the new system.
I don't think the new system will be claiming to offer anonymity with
respect to Ripple transactions. I can't speak for how well-informed
users will be, but it would certainly be risky to let users assume
their transactions will be anonymous when they are not.
Don't worry, the cost of offering credit to someone who is not worthy
of it is never zero. Actually, what I hope Ripple accomplishes is to
create a non-hierarchical financial network that does not require a
central authority who must bail out those in privileged positions, so
participants must bear responsibility for their own decisions. In
that respect, Ripple could in fact lead to a decrease in lending, were
it not for the fact that it will enable so many more relationships to
be mapped into the financial trust network than ever before.
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis||11/29/12 12:38 PM|
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Ryan Fugger||11/29/12 1:21 PM|
That would be nice, but these systems only support addition and multiplication of encrypted numbers. Verifying Ripple transactions requires many more operations than that. But if you can come up with a clever scheme, please let us know.
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||dwilliams||11/29/12 2:18 PM|
A few responses below, inline. Hopefully the Google interface doesn't make it difficult to separate my reply from the body of your text...
Good to hear.
> * Does the user have control over who is able to see their transaction data
It's my growing suspicion that we can make something like the following general proposition which will hold true for nearly all software that sends user data around the net:
If a system depends on defining user content in a way that is qualitatively and/or quantitatively different than the way the user understands what counts as "their content", then the user will live to regret plugging their content into that system.
A system that requires the entire transaction history to be public is extremely likely to qualify as such a system IMO. As you point out below there's not even really a way for the user to conceptualize "their" data as separate from the globally accessible database of transactions without losing the very benefits that the system is designed for. That's why I believe it's irresponsible to describe such a system as giving the user control of their financial data, when the system is designed in a way that makes just that control very difficult (if not impossible for the non-techie user).
I'll have to think about this some more, and investigate the beta when its released. But I will go ahead and say that one of the few systems I've used that works actively to keep non-technical users' expectations of privacy in line with the system is Tor-- they do it by having constant feedback and warnings about the state of the system and non-private habits that the user would otherwise be apt to ignore. I'll be very curious to see how comparable this software will be in terms of warning potential users about the potential problems of putting personal financial details into a globally accessible/accessed database, forever.
As above, I'll just have to try it out and see how it works.
Regarding openness: I want to be extremely open to those peers whom I consider to be my community, and not at all to the rest of the world.
Does this approach let me define the boundaries of my social circle inside the system, or am I bound to share all my data with the entire network all the time?
That's good to hear as well. Bitcoin had a seemingly long spell of advocates claiming anonymity (and still some claim it) when it's not a feature.
A central authority has two essential options in a downturn: a) bail out those in privileged positions as happened with the bailout, or b) save the parts of the too-big-to-fail institutions that really are too big to fail by nationalizing them with strict oversight and apply basic rule of law to perpetrators of fraud. B certainly did _not_ happen, but at the very least it was an option. In a decentralized financial network what happens when a similar credit default swap scheme runs its course through the system?
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis||11/29/12 2:20 PM|
Solutions exist. But these technologies are not very mature.
So you ll have to check your requirements. If for example you only have credit in integers and maximum possible credit 50,
then having addition, multiplication and equality gives you the ability to bruteforce the greater, smaller relations. So it becomes a problem of throughput.
These are some ramblings from someone who has spent a few weeks on the subject. If I were you, I would contact people from the viff project. http://viff.dk/
Dont be confused by the fact that it is about secure multiparty computation. They are experts on what you are looking.
I would make the new implementation upgradable and would offer a graduate scholarship to the crypto department in Aarhus university.
Maybe there is a solution already though. It would be good to contact some of the graduates and staff in Aarhus.
Ripple is an amazing idea. All it needs is many hours of work.
2012/11/29 Ryan Fugger <rfu...@gmail.com>
|Re: [Ripple] Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Mark Friedenbach||11/29/12 3:00 PM|
I wish I had posted more details here earlier, but I am working on a distributed ripple implementation using blockchain technology. It is not an implementation of the various blockchain commit methods detailed on the wiki, but rather a distributed version of the Open-Transactions financial library. The Bitcoin/OT hybrid would essentially be Bitcoin's alter-ego, doing for credit-assets and markets (and by extension, Ripple) what Bitcoin itself does for scarce-money.
I've previously described the proposal in the following pastebin, although written with BTC and OT developers in mind so it might need some explanation:
For an idea of how Ripple can be implemented with only minor modifications to Open-Transactions, see the following notes:
Ripple is possible with any Open-Transactions server today, with only one optional but helpful minor modification to OT itself (adding a multi-step, atomic trade type), and results in performant centralize-processing, distributed-security, and mostly private accounts (only the server and I need to know my balances).
By making transaction public and ordering transactions by a proof-of-work blockchain, private accounts and some performance can be traded for a network decentralization, making it a completely decentralized solution. (This, specifically, is my Bitcoin/OT hybrid contribution.)
Ideally users would then do business with each other via other users of an atomic OT Ripple server of their choice, and the distributed, P2P Bitcoin/OT hybrid network used to do one-time transactions between users on different networks or as a clearing house to transfer funds between OT Ripple servers.
If anyone has the time and inclination to work on this, please email me directly. I hope to start work on this shortly after Freicoin is released in the coming weeks.
PS: @Apostolis I was also thinking of the viff project. I have a gut feeling that multiparty computation tools could be used to build a fully decentralized *and* private transaction network, but unfortunately lack the time to delve into researching that. How about this deal: you design it, and I'll implement it ;)
|Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||dwilliams||11/29/12 8:56 PM|
Will this allow:
* Chaumian cash transactions
* that thing that probably has a name, which is whatever
FellowTraveler was talking about when he described how to audit that
the books and verify all accounts have been settled without requiring
a transaction history in OT-- if you have no idea what I'm talking
about I'll go digging to find it
If this can facilitate practical microtransactions and blind
signatures then you've found the holy grail of digital currency.
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Mark Friedenbach||11/29/12 11:53 PM|
On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 8:56 PM, dwilliams <dudewi...@gmail.com> wrote:
Will this allow:
Yes. Chaumian blinding signatures are meant to keep their untraceable properties even in the presence of eavesdroppers and cleartext, open-channel communication, which is effectively what would be happening here.
Of course traffic analysis would be even more of an issue, since there'd be an orgy of information with every move being broadcast to the entire network and recorded for posterity in the blockchain. But that's no different than Bitcoin, where the same issues apply. No information would be revealed affecting the mathematical underpinnings of Chaumian cash.
* that thing that probably has a name, which is whatever
The “auditing protocol,” I believe is what he calls it. I don't have much information on it, so if you have anything I'd be interested to see it. However that's for other reasons as it'd be entirely redundant to the blockchain which is itself a replay log for auditing. All transactions are public knowledge simply by way of how the Bitcoin/OT hybrid operators. Another way of thinking about it is that each full validating node has to act as an OT server, and so has access to account balances and history anyway.
This is your standard tradeoff, where the issue is really the inherent performance of a heterogenous globally distributed system. As with Bitcoin, there would have to be limitations on block size and a sizable wait between blocks, and naturally some form of transaction fees to manage supply and demand (and subsidize mining). That all works together to make micro-transactions expensive and infeasible in the long term, unfortunately.
However microtransactions are very well supported by the existing performant, centralized Open-Transactions server setup, which would be very easy to integrate with the hybrid setup for cases when decentralization is important and worth the cost.
If this can facilitate practical microtransactions and blind
This is your standard engineers triangle: of decentralization, security, and performance you may have only two (microtransactions fall under performance in my world view).
Traditional OT: centralized-network, decentralized-security, high performance
Bitcoin/OT hybrid: decentralized-network, decentralized-security, Bitcoin-like performance
One does not replace the other because different use cases demand different tradeoffs, but together they complete the digital currency picture.
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Jorge Timón||11/30/12 2:27 AM|
This is not really necessary: blind signatures can be substituted with
"registries" for Ripple. Two phase Ripple can have a commit method
similar to the proof of work chain one . The main advantage is the
faster latency of this new chain, but also including less data in the
new chain. There's still use cases where it's necessary for ownership
to be public, smart locks , for example. The other advantage is if
IOUs are public, you don't need intermediaries to be online when
creating a new Ripple transaction. In this sense, public Ripple is
more p2p than private Ripple.
Since the old proof of work chain 2PR commit was slow, you still
needed registries for POS payments, for example. Now maybe we can base
it all in this new faster chain.
I have an idea to make both public and private Ripple assets
compatible within the same atomic transaction. Of course, some review
is very welcomed. I want to turn Ripple transactions into merkle trees
where each actor can be required to sign different branches of the
trees and may not have access to all the leafs.
I'm not sure my explanation is clear. I'll start another thread.
I'll read the rest of this thread in more detail later, looks really
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Mark Friedenbach||11/30/12 9:23 AM|
On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 2:27 AM, Jorge Timón <jtim...@gmail.com> wrote:
No you can't, not with the same trust model; Apostolis/Ryan are talking about being able to audit a registry (to make sure no funny business is going on) without having to reveal account balances.
With blinded tokens neither the server nor the issuer knows who held the token between the time it was withdrawn and when it was deposited, even if all communications are made public. In any of the Ripple registry commit protocols the server or the issuer would be privy to that information, and might be keeping logs.
That's not to say that all transactions should be done through blinded tokens. I agree that credit is not really possible (although it could be used to settle debts), which is why the accounts and market OT apis would be used instead to implement Ripple, not the lucre blinded tokens. But that's not to say it is without purpose. (Example: I could withdraw cash in Timón's Ripple currency, then use that to settle somebody's debt with you without revealing myself as the benefactor; subject to others doing the same thing so traffic analysis doesn't reveal me, of course.)
The main advantage is the
You don't need intermediaries to be online with Bitcoin/OT hybrid Ripple or similar proposal either, whether you're using public (accounts) or private (blinded tokens) transactions or not.
Since the old proof of work chain 2PR commit was slow, you still
Thanks, I'll take a look at it and respond in your other thread.
|Re: [Ripple] Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis||11/28/12 1:41 PM|
This is amazying news...
Especially the fact that it is open source and that they use the blockchain.
Could any of the developers give a brief introduction of their project and goals?
I am also intrigued by the fact that there is no mining. If I were to guess, i'd say that they use some sort
of algorithm to find which accounts,users are real(pagerank for example), then the blockchain that is accepted
by the most users will be the one that will endure.
2012/11/28 Ryan Fugger <a...@ryanfugger.com>
|Re: [Ripple] Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||melvincarvalho||11/28/12 4:14 PM|
P2P techs dont really scale. You have a 1 in 20 chance if you're good and a 1 in 50 if you're not so good.
But a deep integration with the web has every possibility to become a new global clearing system.
It's the exception rather than the rule that a P2P team develops a great web technology, but I'd encourage ripple to do so, and wish you the best of luck!
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Jorge Timón||12/1/12 4:58 AM|
On 11/30/12, Mark Friedenbach <ma...@monetize.io> wrote:Not sure I understand you. What you mean by the server? In 2PR
documentation clients are referred to as servers, but there's not
really a server. Every issuer knows what addresses hold their issued
assets, yes. That's different from chaumian "cash".
I don't think they're talking about any audit
OT's "cash" is useless for Ripple transactions. It cannot be
trust-less and atomically exchanged for anything, not even a signed
receipt. For settlements, yes. You don't really need to settle with
cash in Ripple. Consumers are supposed to be also producers. That's
the main idea behind mutual credit. You just settle your debts by
selling your stuff.
Of course, OT has more interesting things like contract scripting. I
proposed that for 2PR/ripplecoin, but Ryan saw it as unnecessary
No, only with 2PR. Neither Ripplecoin, OTcoin or this new Ripple require that.
But 2PR has much more privacy. With OTcoin all Ripple transactions are
Your feedback will be appreciated.
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Jorge Timón||12/1/12 5:04 AM|
I think Jed knows a thing or two about p2p. Some people in bitcointalk
even claim he's Satoshi. I first had the idea that Satoshi was Amir
Taaki from intersango but now I'm more inclined to think he's Jed.
In any case I would bet on your 5% chance.
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Adam Wascholl||12/1/12 1:35 PM|
I'm very happy to hear about this latest development. I'm involved with a group in CT exploring different alternatives to the monetary system, and Ripple was the system we found that made the most amount of sense. Unfortunately, none of us are programmers, and an implementation was close to impossible. I wish you all the best, and I look forward to trying to help by being a beta tester, and lending my feedback. If any of you are ever coming through New Haven, you have a couch to crash on.
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Ryan Fugger||12/1/12 3:58 PM|
On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 2:18 PM, dwilliams <dudewi...@gmail.com> wrote:Things that must be made public:
* offers of credit to your peers that you wish to make available for
* transaction paths, amounts, and when it was executed
Whether this is "all you data" is up to you...
I should mention that the system incorporates bitcoin-style coins that
are used to pay transaction fees and regulate transaction submission
rates against consensus processing capability -- they can be used for
payment as well as Ripple and offer privacy similar to bitcoins.
There is also, of course, actual bitcoin, which I'm sure will get
integrated to the system in various ways over time. My sense is that
these more-private coins will be useful when more privacy is
We've discussed this many times here. The hope is that a
decentralized system acts as both a disincentive for individual actors
to take great risks, because there is no one to bail them out if they
fail, and as a stabilizing force against systemic shocks due to the
heterogeneity of the network.
I am planning on thinking more about homomorphic encryption systems,
but I can't even begin to imagine how one would be able to hide which
paths a transaction used in the network, while still allowing a third
party to confirm the validity of the transaction with zero knowledge.
How can they confirm validity without even knowing which credit limits
to compare against? How can they know a path is valid without knowing
which parts of the network it uses, and whether the path is actual
continuous? How do the other participants figure out the new credit
limits going forward without knowing which accounts get debited? It
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Walter||12/1/12 5:15 PM|
> I am planning on thinking more about homomorphic encryption systems,IIRC this was one of my core concerns with the general approach (re:
network-mediated path discovery) some months back in the Ripple & IFEX
thread. I remain very interested to see how this is resolved with the
new developments. I am not sure but have been in contact with some of
the team and they do seem very capable.
(Obligatory mention: IFEX is still aiming to avoid the path issue via
a quotation system. If anyone is interested in contributing, the
current pre-draft version was shifted a couple of days back to github
@ https://github.com/globalcitizen/ifex-protocol/ - forks and issues
very welcome! Also, the bitcoin-development list is presently
wrangling with various suggestions of "invoicing" schemes to resolve
(with-no-listed-bitcoin-address-to-return-it)" dilemma. Probably any
future efforts, Ripple-based or otherwise, should ensure that fees are
pre-settlement calculable in order to avoid Bitcoin's current
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Walter||12/1/12 5:16 PM|
> I'm very happy to hear about this latest development. I'm involved with aThis sounds very interesting.
How large is the team? What are your backgrounds? What is the
motivation and scope of the research? Are any results available?
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Adam Wascholl||12/2/12 4:06 AM|
Unfortunately, it has been just been three of us. Our backgrounds include accounting and computer science/cognitive science, and the work has been mostly research and theoretical. We view the idea of currency as information to be used to help us work together and achieve the things we want to accomplish. That's why we liked Ripple so much, because it doesn't treat the currency as a physical thing that we mistakenly believe has value.
Many of us came together because we realized our current monetary system is driving a lot of the problems we experience in this world, especially over-consumption of resources. In fact, we all met at a Transition Openspace, which is a type of event held by those interested in The Transition Movement, a model developed for looking at ways to transition to a low-energy world after peak oil occurs.
I'm really interested in seeing something like Ripple implemented with many of the other great tools that are being developed to help us become a more efficient world, such as crowd sourcing. At this point, we've realized there are so many other great efforts going on out there, and I'm mostly concentrating now on activism, and trying to spread the use of these tools on local levels to help impact what's around me.
Keep up the great work, everyone!
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis||12/2/12 8:26 PM|
@mark cool, this approach seems to solve all the problems. If you dont trust someone's else OT server, you build your own, thus it can be fully p2p if need be.(it doesnt solve the problem of being able to make
transactions while offline though, since this problem is hard)
If we can use this new approach where there is no need for mining, it would be great.
Also, make it general enough so that I could put the transactions of the smart contracts.( can you also provide an atomicity mechanism for them?).
Since in this case, information is decentralized, we'll need a decentralized rooting protocol. Till now, I have been working on providing a big centralized graph server.
I was also expecting to use it to propagate prices, and available quantities in the multi-barter network. For ripple, finding a decentralized algorithm is easy. For multibarter,
it will be difficult.
One other problem is the fact that ripple as it is, can only be used as a complementary "currency". It cannot withhold quantities of value that can make banks or other currencies unnecessary. One way to solve this would be
to increase the risk that each individual takes for individuals with distance 2 or more. Communities then will form with increased social ties so as to support that increased risk and this increased amount of value.
I really hope that we all understand that ripple above all is an insurance system,not a monetary system. I hope that you take this into consideration when you create the new BC/OT system.
@ryan unfortunatelly I dont have any more information to give you.
2012/12/2 Adam Wascholl <adam.w...@gmail.com>
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Ryan Fugger||4/20/13 11:22 PM|
If you have an idea, feel free to post it.
On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 7:40 PM, Johan Nygren <biped...@gmail.com> wrote:
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Johan Nygren||4/21/13 2:20 PM|
*re-posted from mail*
What is Resilience ?
decentralized system for governing redistribution (evolution of state government):
each node sets a value for redistribution (0-100%), and receives in proportion
transactions are redistributed relative lowest value of the two nodes involved
nodes only receives redistribution up to total sum of their transactions/investments (can have investments in multiple different ripple networks and receive redistribution from each ripple network they trade with)
this scales and self-organizes
theory is that a decentralized system for governing redistribution = collective intelligence, wisdom of crowds, resilience,
oogle this: http://projectresilience.tumblr.com/image/42367647796
why decentralize governance of redistribution ? wisdom of crowds.
theory is that increased redistribution opens up niche for other currencies (imagine extreme of 100 % redistribution = gift economy - good for FOSS and 'social currency' value added ) - also think in context of ephemeralization & increased *wealth inequality* - & scarcity/abundance (redistribution increases with abundance ? - opens up for 'social currency' business like FOSS -reciprocal altruism - much to be said here)
friend requested you on Facebook, much easier to explain in chat,
we have multiple threads active and lot´s of loosely organized content
P2Pfoundation Michel Bauwens and bunch of other netizens likes it :)
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Johan Nygren||4/22/13 12:50 PM|
It´s probably easier if you just invent it within your own mind,
hopefully my attempts to sketch it out for you will provide some to build on,
essentially, all transactions are redistributed through ripples,
and relative the percentage of redistribution set by each node,
when you think about it you´ll see a bunch of loopholes and then invent solutions to them,
I´ve done that but I´m a visual thinker so it´s a pain to try and explain them all,
there´s a system for 'marking' transactions,
incoming transactions are marked by the recipients redistribution-value,
and when they then transfer that money they´ll only recieve redistribution relative what they had when they received it,
these solutions are quite intuitive and logical,
there may be some integration issues with Ripple, but nothing that can´t be solved :)
what this will add is a decentralized system for governing redistribution,
(I post a lot about this on Facebook - what redistribution does is essentially to tune how influential money should be, decreased influence opens up niche for other currencies... again, read my facebook posts, easier that way)
I think you´ll come up with similar designs,
there is again also a bunch of threads on Facebook and around the web focusing both on the larger picture and the technical aspects
just chat with me if you wonder about anything - and have fun inventing,
if you want co-create it with me I´m open for it (would <3 to !), and there´s a bunch of people who are also open to join the hackathon,
I can be your google if there are any questions, but I can´t really animate it entirely for you (don´t know where to start...)
and it´s so simple that I think you´ll come up with similar designs quite fast,
'decentralized governance for a free-market panarchy'
chat at http://facebook.com/bipedaljoe
or just find me online or IRL,
On Sunday, April 21, 2013 11:20:35 PM UTC+2, Johan Nygren wrote:
*re-posted from mail*
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Johan Nygren||4/22/13 12:53 PM|
If I am right,
then this will be to 'redistribution governance' (the state) what Ripple was for money,
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Johan Nygren||4/22/13 1:21 PM|
just saw your reply,
from what I could read zerocoins agenda seems to be to add privacy,
whereas this system is for governing redistribution (and through it essentially tune how influential money should be - 100 % redistribution creates a money-less gift economy, and then just decrease it from there - this system allows that governance to be done by the crowd and their incentives - a free-market for 'the state')
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Ryan Fugger||4/22/13 1:41 PM|
Do you mean that I can set my node's redistribution rate to, say, 2%, which would pay 2% of all my transaction value into a redistribution pool, from which I would get a share in proportion to the 2% rate I had set? So if I decided to change my rate to 1%, my contribution would halve, but so would my take?It's an interesting idea. How would you police people setting up nodes with little or no transaction value just to collect a share of the pot?
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Johan Nygren||4/22/13 1:53 PM|
the simplest solution I´ve come up with is that people receive relative how much they invest (sum of their transactions),
one person can receive from multiple different networks, but only relative his transaction activity with those networks,
and transactions are 'flagged' with your nodes redistribution rate (in some cases the recipients - more on that later), changing the rate does not change flagged 'transaction memories'
*there were some dubious facts in my first post
but you´ll come to similar design solutions,
and decentralizing 'redistribution governance' (and the intonation between different currencies - long story...) is probably a common agenda :)
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Jeffrey Cliff||4/22/13 1:58 PM|
Moreover isn't this a wealth transfer from people with strong identities to Anonymous?
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Johan Nygren||4/22/13 2:07 PM|
eventually, these systems will have become a universal payment infrastructure - standard protocols for money and redistribution,
a self-organizing free-market panarchy
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Johan Nygren||4/22/13 7:38 PM|
low income nodes would then have monetary incentives to set high redistribution values
and high income nodes would have ethical incentives, consumer pressure (ventures competing over who offers highest redistribution value), and insurance (eg in case of ceased income) incentives.
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Johan Nygren||4/24/13 8:52 AM|
market incentives: competition. the higher value for redistribution,
the more costumers top-nodes will attract.
these incentives will push redistribution to a maximum,
and thence minimize moneys influence in our economics.
*same incentives that keep prices at minimum levels*
"...think Gift economy (100% redistribution), then increase the influence of money until you reach a balance with minimal Artificial scarcity and minimal market friction,
how to create resilience? avoid monetary influence except when it per se does add value."
decentralized redistribution governance for a free-market panarchy: Resilience
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Johan Nygren||4/24/13 5:16 PM|
This idea is based on the theory that swarm redistribution('basic income') is good.
If it is good and does adds value, then a decentralized solution to it is prbbly even better.
I´ve been incubating these ideas since January and I have a lot I´d like to share with you,
hope to hear from all of you.
peace love & technology
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Jeffrey Cliff||4/24/13 5:42 PM|
Oh. Damn that is going to get expensive. And it is going to make identity and definition of recipient important as you wouldn't necessarily want every *node* to be redistributed to but every human being no?
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Johan Nygren||4/24/13 11:59 PM|
What do you mean expensive. The point of it would be to increase total wealth.
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Johan Nygren||4/25/13 1:08 AM|
theory is that an increase in (swarm) redistribution would add value, decrease costs, increase wealth, be good.
otherwise it would be a stupid idea.
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Johan Nygren||4/26/13 10:41 AM|
I think market incentives will make this work:
each node sets their percentage of redistribution and receives in proportion,
& receives relative their monetary activity with different networks
an increased percentage of swarm redistribution ('basic income') pays for non-monetized value added.
each network has their own optimal balance that maximizes their wealth, some 0%, some 100%, and everything in between.
The theory is that the above solution would self-organize to find that balance, there would be multiple forces pushing towards an optimum.
I´d love to hear more from you Ryan,
I´m humbly aware I might be totally wrong,
but my intuition has kept pushing me,
and I´ve been right before.
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Johan Nygren||4/30/13 11:56 AM|
again, design for economics 2.0 is just to increase swarm-redistribution to whatever % minimizes Artificial scarcity and market friction,
...and implementing this through a decentralized solution would appeal to many of the ripple-sphere, I suppose.
|Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Alex Kotov||4/30/13 10:40 PM|
I found this idea of Redistribution interesting as well. We have proverb in Russian: "Do not have 100 rubles, but 100 friends."
What to do with non-personal nodes like Bitstamp, they have huge trust index and do not really need any social compensations.
On Wednesday, November 28, 2012 11:21:12 PM UTC+2, Ryan Fugger wrote:
I'm happy to announce that there is finally a team seriously building
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Jeffrey Cliff||5/1/13 2:28 PM|
It would increased perceived wealth(good thing in and of itself), reduce the gini coefficient but only reallocate existing wealth. ie it helps with artificially scarce money, if that makes sense.
Minimizing artificial scarcity or transforming artificially scarce things into swarm-managed things is...quite the idea, but I think that this is not going to be easy, at all.
Anonymous is, of course, merely an instantiation of the idea of 'Anonymous'. The idea of the Common Man, Joe Public and so on. It ceased to be a mere hashtag when people started wearing the mask and doing things under cover of it. I guess to disagree about the nature of Anonymous is to disagree about the nature of randomness itself. But do we have to wait until there's 70 billion ripple accounts with no balance and this lever set at 100% before seeing that until Identity becomes associated with accounts in some meaningful way that this isn't necessarily going to scale, or is it sufficient to see how much of our current income we allocate to the Anonymous rippler as is(which is just another pooling mechanism, perhaps less provably fair than yours).
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Johan Nygren||5/1/13 4:12 PM|
But it is quite the idea :)
And if swarm redistribution is a good option to include in the software,
then we should continue to chat about it.
I´m very publicly pro quite high % of swarm redistribution,
I think it would optimize economics,
That said, if you think like I do, then we should keep chatting about this.
I have a large community that could build and crowdfund this.
And it would be really awesome if we could build it on the http://ripple.com software,
because then we could begin testing it at a small scale once it´s built.
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Ryan Fugger||5/7/13 9:32 AM|
On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 1:53 PM, Johan Nygren <biped...@gmail.com> wrote:
If people receive in direct proportion to how much they put in, then they get back exactly what they put in, and there's no point.
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Johan Nygren||5/7/13 9:41 AM|
not the amount the redistribute but the sum of their transactions,
one node can have sent money to multiple different networks, and will receive from all of them up to the sum of their transactions with those networks,
this solution is essentially just a measure of 'citizenship' where nodes are part of the networks the send money to / invest in,
it makes it simple for anyone to join any network anywhere at any time.
that´s the best solution I could design, I kind of like it.
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Johan Nygren||5/7/13 9:47 AM|
*the sum of their spendings
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Johan Nygren||5/7/13 10:33 AM|
so there´s still a need to police people from setting up multiple nodes,
the spending/redistribution solution only solves from where redistribution should be received.
how would you police redistribution ?
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Johan Nygren||5/7/13 10:45 AM|
decentralized identity verification,
a p2p identity verification to prevent us from creating billions of accounts
how would you design that ?
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Johan Nygren||5/7/13 11:02 AM|
aw need some form of identity verification for redistribution systems,
a node needs to be verified by the nodes it receives redistribution from. could use simple traditional verification systems. some form of p2p-attestation, whatever is sufficient. doesn´t have to be high-tech, depends on the node and their ripple network. as much privacy as possible.
shouldn´t be too hard to design the optimal solution for.
|Re: [Ripple] Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Johan Nygren||5/7/13 11:12 AM|
it´s a trust-thing and needs to be attested by whatever is required for nodes not to set up multiple redistribution accounts,
I don´t know what the optimal solution is to that, that we will have to figure out, I´m for networks of trust verification, p2p-attestation,
will probably develop into some balance where local networks attest each others identity and this works and everyone just trades across the planet and all is well.
|Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||james c.||10/3/13 9:53 PM|
Hi Ryan and all the Ripple enthusiasts,
My name is James and I am a monetary historian. I have written a book about Bitcoin in which I have done my best to place BTC in its historical context with regards to the evolution of money.
I am now writing writing another book: "Ripple: The Return of Trust."
The creation of Ripple is clearly more than just about money, it is about market places and therefore our economy and society as a whole.
My thesis is that for the vast majority of human existence we have lived in hunter gatherer tribes in which trust based exchange systems were dominant. Barter was more likely to occur with external players or members of the tribe who had lost the good will of the rest of the community. To this extent, Ripple is a digital return to our roots.
I would like to ask permission to quote some of the posts in this thread.
Please could you reply to say whether or not this is:
b) Not OK,
c) Whether you would be interested in doing a brief interview concerning the creative thinking and belief systems behind the Ripple Project.
I promise to be respectful and positive about anything I quote.
I would just like to take this opportunity to give my personal thanks to all the bright minded people who have been generous enough to give up their precious time and also brave enough to articulate their 'thinking in progress' for the benefit of this important project.
I look forward to hearing from you all.
PS - Ryan - super keen to speak to you!
|Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Ryan Fugger||10/3/13 10:02 PM|
Hi James. That's really cool that you're writing a book about Ripple.
Is there a link to your Bitcoin book so we can check it out?
I am fine if you want to quote my posts in this forum or elsewhere,
but I can't speak for anyone else. I'm also happy to talk to you more
about the roots of the project, either in this forum, or via private
|Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||james c.||10/3/13 10:34 PM|
Thanks for the speedy reply.
It would be great to have a chat via private email if thats ok.
Please could you send me an email to jamesri...@gmail.com
Obviously I can send you a private copy of the book for your approval before it goes to the printers.
Look forward to understanding the original motivation and thinking!
|Re: Ripple.com and taking the project to the next level||Ryan Fugger||10/3/13 10:43 PM|