Frequency of Notes in Persian Music

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Frequency of Notes in Persian Music Ramin Zamani 3/30/97 12:00 AM

Zyryab wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I was wondering if anyone knew what the frequency of the notes of the
> Iranian music system are relative to the western system (A=440 Hz)
>
> Thanks in advance,
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I believe it's either 440Hz or 442Hz. If you're talking about the tuning
system though, it's the same as equal temperement.

Ramin Zamani

Frequency of Notes in Persian Music Zyryab 3/31/97 12:00 AM
Frequency of Notes in Persian Music Amir Izadi 3/31/97 12:00 AM


Ramin Zamani (Sonic_...@mindlink.bc.ca) wrote:

: Ramin Zamani

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        Actually, it depends on the instrument.

Santur can be from A=425 to A=445.
Sitar is usually around A=415
and Tar around A=425.

Regards, Amir

Frequency of Notes in Persian Music Zyryab 3/31/97 12:00 AM

I'm sorry for the question not being clear (it was past my bed time:))
What I meant was how would one divide the octave? I remember seeing a
setAr and it had 17 pardehs in an octave. The reason I'm asking is
that I've taken the frets (pardehs) out of an old electric guitar I
have and I wanted the new frets to be positioned like on a setAr or
tAr. The frequencies in the western system go up by multiples of
2^(1/12); would the frequencies in our system go up as 2^(1/17)?


Thanks again

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Frequency of Notes in Persian Music B. Chandramouli 3/31/97 12:00 AM

Zyryab wrote:
> The frequencies in the western system go up by multiples of
> 2^(1/12); would the frequencies in our system go up as 2^(1/17)?
>
> Thanks again
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Behrang "Bill" Amini                _____   Dept. of Electrical &

I do not know much about Iranian music ( is it any similar to
Indian Classical? ) but I highly doubt that the frequencies
will be divided  into 2^(1/17). This is because, there are only
certain intervals between notes that sound 'pleasant'. If the
extra 5 notes ( 17-12) really represent frequency ( notes )
positions, then they are probably 'microtonal' positions.

Sorry I could not answer your question directly, but my $.02...

Chandra
cha...@psp.ih.lucent.com

Frequency of Notes in Persian Music Massoud Ajami 3/31/97 12:00 AM

In article <5hojki$cjq$1...@joe.rice.edu>,

   am...@ece.utexas.edu (Zyryab) wrote:
>
>I'm sorry for the question not being clear (it was past my bed time:))
>What I meant was how would one divide the octave? I remember seeing a
>setAr and it had 17 pardehs in an octave. The reason I'm asking is
>that I've taken the frets (pardehs) out of an old electric guitar I
>have and I wanted the new frets to be positioned like on a setAr or
>tAr. The frequencies in the western system go up by multiples of
>2^(1/12); would the frequencies in our system go up as 2^(1/17)?
>
>
>Thanks again
>


   ||     |  |  ||     |  |  ||    ||     |  |  ||     |  |  ||     |  |  ||     ||
   ||     |  |  ||     |  |  ||    ||     |  |  ||     |  |  ||     |  |  ||     ||

  Do            Re           Me    Fa           So           La           Ci     Do


This is what Tar looks like.  

Frequency of Notes in Persian Music B. Chandramouli 3/31/97 12:00 AM

Massoud Ajami wrote:
>
>    ||     |  |  ||     |  |  ||    ||     |  |  ||     |  |  ||     |  |  ||     ||
>    ||     |  |  ||     |  |  ||    ||     |  |  ||     |  |  ||     |  |  ||     ||
>
>   Do            Re           Me    Fa           So           La           Ci     Do
>
> This is what Tar looks like.

Could you provide a translation from Do Re Me,..  to C, D, E,... with
Sharps
and Flats denoted.
That will make it unambiguous. Also since there are 17 notes, could you
provide the relationship( ratio) of the extra 5 notes to the other
notes? Thanks.

Chandra

Frequency of Notes in Persian Music Kees van den Doel 3/31/97 12:00 AM

In article <333F69...@mindlink.bc.ca>,
Ramin Zamani  <Sonic_...@mindlink.bc.ca> wrote:

>> I was wondering if anyone knew what the frequency of the notes of the
>> Iranian music system are relative to the western system (A=440 Hz)

>I believe it's either 440Hz or 442Hz. If you're talking about the tuning


>system though, it's the same as equal temperement.

Officially it's the same as Western  music (A=440). In classical Persian
music there is no real standard, and you may hear anywhere from A=350 to
A=500.  Of course, this also  depends  on  what note  you more  or  less
arbitrarily call "A".

The  tuning is definitively  NOT equal  temperament,  as  Persian  music
employs micrononal intervals.  You can hear  some of the Persian tunings
on http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/kvdoel/radif.html


Kees

Frequency of Notes in Persian Music Mohammad Reza Gharib 3/31/97 12:00 AM

You can find the fret distances for you guitar here:
http://www.galcit.caltech.edu/~moh/music/setar
This is for a very harmonic setar.  The intervals are very diatonic
(just) and don’t allow even simple modulations.  The instrument however
sounds great in one key or possibly two.

The first Column tells you what frequency ratios you need for different
notes.  Some frets are missing because they are quite variable depending
on the key.  The other columns tell you how far from the bridge you need
to
put the fret if the vibrating segment of the open string ( from kharak =
bridge
to sheytanak = string holder before peg) is the number on the first row
in
centimeters.

Say kh-sh distance is 60cm. divide that into half--> 30cm that is a fret
for an octave above open string, that's an E for the first string on a
guitar.

divide 60 by 3 --->20cm from sh gives you a B =a tetrachord(dang)+a
whole tone
or simply 7 semitones=176 savars=702 cents.  
BTW  
Interval in Savar =1000 Log(freqfret/freqopen) ~1000 Log(Lopen/Lfret)
(base 10)
also Interval in cents =1200log(Ffret/Fopen)/log(2)  (any base)    

When you put your finger on this fret, the vibration is confined to
travel
in the remaining 2/3 of the string and hence it makes 50% more trips per
second     ---->Ffret=3/2Fopen    Log(3/2)=Log3-Log2=.4771-.3010=.176
Divide 60 by 4--->15cm. fret at 45cm from bridge.   etc.

Now real practical setar is slightly different.  Chromatic Setar
is forbidden by god me a few other people
.    
I have a big folder of data I took years ago from a lot of
Iranian musicians in California.  
I did FFT analysis of recordings of many old
masters and compared them to the data obtained by Mehdy Barkeshly and
Jean During.  Barkeshly'd data is quite erronous.
I have hard copies of this data, but I should look around for the disks.

I wrote a research paper 5 years ago on the drift of the intervals
within the last century.


------------------------------------------------------------------
Mohammad Reza Gharib                    telephone: (818) 395 - 4759
Graduate Aeronautical Laboratories      m...@galcit.caltech.edu
California Institute of Technology    
http://www.galcit.caltech.edu/~moh
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Frequency of Notes in Persian Music dari...@ix.netcom.com 3/31/97 12:00 AM

Zyryab wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I was wondering if anyone knew what the frequency of the notes of the
> Iranian music system are relative to the western system (A=440 Hz)
>
> Thanks in advance,

This sounds kind of ok for tar frets:

---------- open string C
-----      Db  90 cents (from C)
-----      Dp 135 (likewise cents from C)
---------- ~D 205
-----      Eb 295
-----      Ep 340
---------- ~E 410
---------- F  500
-----      F > (F ssoree!) 565
-----      Gp 630
---------- G  700
-----      Ab 790
-----      Ap 835
---------- ~A 905
-----      Bb 995
-----      Bp 1040
---------- ~B 1110
---------- C  1200 cents (the octave)

The idea behind these intervals is:

---------- C
205 cents
---------- ~D
205 cents
---------- ~E
 90 cents  
---------- F
200 cents
---------- G
205 cents
---------- ~A
205 cents
---------- ~B
 90 cents
---------- C

Dariush.

> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Behrang "Bill" Amini                _____   Dept. of Electrical &
> zyryab at rice dot edu     ____    /     \  Computer  Engineering
>                           /    \__/       \    Rice University
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> | o o o \________________)   .dIIb.   :#   |
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> |_o_o_o_/                )   `tIIP'   :#   |
>   O o 0                  \      __         /
>                           \____/  \       /
>            \_____/
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~zyryab/-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Frequency of Notes in Persian Music Ramin Zamani 3/31/97 12:00 AM

The tuning is based on equal temperament. If you remove the quarter
tones, you'll end up with 12 equal,( well almost equal) tones. It's
definitely nothing like deviding the scale in to 7 equal parts like the
music of Bali.

Ramin

Frequency of Notes in Persian Music Kees van den Doel 4/1/97 12:00 AM

In article <5hojki$cjq$1...@joe.rice.edu>, Zyryab <am...@ece.utexas.edu> wrote:

>I'm sorry for the question not being clear (it was past my bed time:))
>What I meant was how would one divide the octave? I remember seeing a
>setAr and it had 17 pardehs in an octave. The reason I'm asking is
>that I've taken the frets (pardehs) out of an old electric guitar I
>have and I wanted the new frets to be positioned like on a setAr or
>tAr. The frequencies in the western system go up by multiples of
>2^(1/12); would the frequencies in our system go up as 2^(1/17)?

No, it's like  this:  Take the usual Western 12 tones.   For every black
key on the piano, add an extra note, the "koron", in Persian  music.  So
for Bb there is an extra Bp (B koron), same for (DEGA)b.

These extra 5 notes  plus the Western 12 make  17 total.  The "koron" is
like the black key note, but about 1/3 of a half-tone (33 cents) higher.
So Bp = Bb + 33 cent.

This  is only  approximate,  as  the 12  Western  notes  are  not  tuned
according to equal temperament, but rather to a form of just intonation,
with some other subtleties.  These differences are quite small, however.
The "koron"  notes  are also  adjusted  slightly  from what  I described
according to the taste and temperament of the performer, pun intended.

It  would be very cool to play traditional  Persian music on an electric
guitar!


Kees

Frequency of Notes in Persian Music Massoud Ajami 4/1/97 12:00 AM

In article <334045...@psp.ih.lucent.com>,

Well, you were doing it right! Do, Re, Me... to C,D,E,F,...

The extra frets are called 1/4 fret, but it is not completly that amount all the time. As Dariush
mentioned, the relationship to Western scale, while Western scale is modified scale (Bach scale.)

There is not complete agreement into the exact distance, sometimes it is 1/4 but some times is not.
The reson behind it also refers to the ear itself which is not a linear sensor, so accordingly, the
Persian music and its tunning is based on "liked" harmonics which the player would move the fret to
"make it right."

Another thing is that the tuning of instrument is based on voice of vocalist, while in Western music,
the singer have to sing the note, so "Do" is not alway the Middle C, at least not for the Tar.

As in Western, C sharp is equal to D flat, and we have tow more names for 1/4 distance "sori", and
"kron" coresponding to sharp and flat.


Frequency of Notes in Persian Music dari...@ix.netcom.com 4/1/97 12:00 AM

dari...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> Zyryab wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I was wondering if anyone knew what the frequency of the notes of the
> > Iranian music system are relative to the western system (A=440 Hz)
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
>

Hello again,

On second thoughts I may have not answered your question rightfully.
If you are looking for the "frequency"s of these pitches (pitch
numbers),
then intervals in cents are of no immediate help to you.

Of course if you are going to actually make these pitches on an
electronic instrument, then chances are your instrument understans
cents and would produce the right "frequency". However, if, for
instance,
you are planning to program these pitches on a PC to excite its
loudspeaker then you must, either go through another somtware
that understans cents or actually do some computations on the
intervals' ratios to derive pitch numbers.

If the latter is the case please let me know and I'd try to post
or email the procedures to you. Forgive me, these procedures are
not that intuitive and first I want to know if that is exactly
what you want.

Alternatively you may wish to check it out in your local library.
Or again ask me to dig it out for you - I'd be more than happy
to do so. :)

Regards,
Dariush.