Is Making Learning?

Showing 1-18 of 18 messages
Is Making Learning? Rafi Santo 2/12/13 7:09 AM
Hey folks,

So I've been reflecting recently on the "making is learning" meme, and while I love the ethos, I've been wanting to make sure we don't lose some of the nuance of what we actually mean when we talk about the powerful intersection of making and learning. A post with some thoughts here:
http://empathetics.org/2013/02/12/is-making-learning-considerations-as-education-embraces-the-maker-movement/

Of course welcome to feedback/conversation, either here or on the blog. I'm sure folks in the Learning Creative Learning course might have thoughts as they dive into the Papert readings there...

Cheers,
Rafi


--
Rafi Santo
Learning Sciences
Indiana University
www.empathetics.org

Re: Is Making Learning? David Bruant 2/12/13 8:11 AM
Le 12/02/2013 16:09, Rafi Santo a �crit :
> Hey folks,
>
> So I've been reflecting recently on the "making is learning" meme, and while I love the ethos, I've been wanting to make sure we don't lose some of the nuance of what we actually mean when we talk about the powerful intersection of making and learning. A post with some thoughts here:
> http://empathetics.org/2013/02/12/is-making-learning-considerations-as-education-embraces-the-maker-movement/
>
> Of course welcome to feedback/conversation, either here or on the blog.
"Is making, in fact, learning?

The short answer: yes, but it�s complicated. The longer answer is that
the best maker-driven learning is never just about the making. It�s
about all the things that happen around the making. That initial spark
of curiosity, the investigation and early tinkering, the planning and
research that follow, the inspirations and appropriations from other
projects, the prototypes, the failures, the feedback, and, perhaps most
importantly, the iterations upon iterations towards a better make."
Yes.

No later than today, Thomas Parisot (a friend/former CTO/freelance
"coworker") wrote a blogpost illustrating exactly this [1] (in French).
For some context, he participated to a recent documentation sprint.
Usually, people think they need to know already to /make/ the doc. It's
actually interesting to note that documentation frightens most people
who think that making has to be preceded by knowing. In this context,
the making part is made so important that people don't see the learning
they can get out of it.

Thomas wrote about everything he learned through the process of wanting
to document and contribute to MDN (3 middle sections), his ideas,
failures, what he had to read and understand to document something (the
blog post contains all the links he read to get something written) etc.
His last words ("Et d�aider � am�liorer la base documentaire par la m�me
occasion."/"and improve the documentation as a byproduct") suggest that
the making is a mere byproduct of the learning.

The event was only one day, so he hasn't really explored the "iterations
upon iterations towards a better make", but that'll happen eventually.

Thanks for your once again excellent post, Rafi !

David

[1] https://case.oncle-tom.net/2013/premier-mozilla-doc-sprint/
Re: Is Making Learning? Rafi Santo 2/12/13 9:26 AM
That's a great anecdote - thanks for sharing! I think that we probably all have experiences like that - where we can see the larger process and context around making and how valuable it is. I think I mostly wrote the post so that when we design, we design to support those pieces as well.  

--  
Rafi Santo
Learning Sciences
Indiana University
www.empathetics.org


On Tuesday, February 12, 2013 at 11:11 AM, David Bruant wrote:

> Le 12/02/2013 16:09, Rafi Santo a écrit :
> > Hey folks,
> >  
> > So I've been reflecting recently on the "making is learning" meme, and while I love the ethos, I've been wanting to make sure we don't lose some of the nuance of what we actually mean when we talk about the powerful intersection of making and learning. A post with some thoughts here:
> > http://empathetics.org/2013/02/12/is-making-learning-considerations-as-education-embraces-the-maker-movement/
> >  
> > Of course welcome to feedback/conversation, either here or on the blog.
> "Is making, in fact, learning?
>  
> The short answer: yes, but it’s complicated. The longer answer is that  
> the best maker-driven learning is never just about the making. It’s  
> about all the things that happen around the making. That initial spark  
> of curiosity, the investigation and early tinkering, the planning and  
> research that follow, the inspirations and appropriations from other  
> projects, the prototypes, the failures, the feedback, and, perhaps most  
> importantly, the iterations upon iterations towards a better make."
> Yes.
>  
> No later than today, Thomas Parisot (a friend/former CTO/freelance  
> "coworker") wrote a blogpost illustrating exactly this [1] (in French).  
> For some context, he participated to a recent documentation sprint.
> Usually, people think they need to know already to /make/ the doc. It's  
> actually interesting to note that documentation frightens most people  
> who think that making has to be preceded by knowing. In this context,  
> the making part is made so important that people don't see the learning  
> they can get out of it.
>  
> Thomas wrote about everything he learned through the process of wanting  
> to document and contribute to MDN (3 middle sections), his ideas,  
> failures, what he had to read and understand to document something (the  
> blog post contains all the links he read to get something written) etc.
> His last words ("Et d’aider à améliorer la base documentaire par la même  
Re: Is Making Learning? Emma Irwin 2/12/13 12:42 PM
Hi Rafi,

Just wanted to say how much I enjoyed this post , especially this bit:


*It’s about all the things that happen around the making. That initial
spark of curiosity, the investigation and early tinkering, the planning and
research that follow, the inspirations and appropriations from other
projects, the prototypes, the failures, the feedback, and, perhaps most
importantly, the iterations upon iterations towards a better make.*

This spoke to my own learning in programming - I think I learned (and got
confidence) more from debugging and being stuck than simply making.  The
sense of accomplishment of overcoming things that seemed really hard at
first have motivated me more than anything ( I think those experiences are
why I am crazy enough to think I can 'teach' now :)
 I suggested once  that 'debugging' be a web literacy, but I've never
really been able to explain why.    It's also why (I think) working with
kids, we shouldn't get hung up on finishing projects or even making ones
we're always proud of (why perhaps picking the best ones to display isn't
always inline with the effort that resulted in the best learning).

Anyway - thanks - I shared this with our Learning Creative Learning group
as well , and also good feedback.

On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 7:09 AM, Rafi Santo <rsa...@indiana.edu> wrote:

> Hey folks,
>
> So I've been reflecting recently on the "making is learning" meme, and
> while I love the ethos, I've been wanting to make sure we don't lose some
> of the nuance of what we actually mean when we talk about the powerful
> intersection of making and learning. A post with some thoughts here:
>
> http://empathetics.org/2013/02/12/is-making-learning-considerations-as-education-embraces-the-maker-movement/
>
> Of course welcome to feedback/conversation, either here or on the blog.
> I'm sure folks in the Learning Creative Learning course might have thoughts
> as they dive into the Papert readings there...
>
> Cheers,
> Rafi
>
>
> --
> Rafi Santo
> Learning Sciences
> Indiana University
> www.empathetics.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> webmaker mailing list
> webm...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/webmaker
>
Re: Is Making Learning? Rafi Santo 2/12/13 2:29 PM
Thanks Emma!  

On the debugging note, this is actually something that the Computational Thinking/Computational Literacy folks focus on, so you're not alone in thinking that it's important! See the attached piece from Jeanette Wing on computational thinking generally, and the ScratchEd team has done some great work on this too. See this webinar on computational thinking practices, which includes debugging:
http://scratched.media.mit.edu/resources/computational-thinking-practices-april-2011-webinar

And I definitely agree that the final, finished project isn't always the best thing to focus on when thinking about learning. Case in point: 2 summers ago we were testing out a DIY electronics curriculum, and two different classrooms were implementing it. In one classroom (let's call it Class A), there were lots of really nice polished final products. In Class B, lots of unfinished work. So clearly Class A must be learning more, right?  

What we found in the video data was that anytime kids hit a snag in Class A, the teachers would just help them out, often taking what they were working on out of their hands to fix it so the kid could "progress" in the project. In Class B, the teachers let the kids struggle with their projects more. Where was better learning happening? Class B.  

--  
Rafi Santo
Learning Sciences
Indiana University
www.empathetics.org


On Tuesday, February 12, 2013 at 3:42 PM, Emma Irwin wrote:

> Hi Rafi,  
>  
> Just wanted to say how much I enjoyed this post , especially this bit:
>  
>  
> It’s about all the things that happen around the making. That initial spark of curiosity, the investigation and early tinkering, the planning and research that follow, the inspirations and appropriations from other projects, the prototypes, the failures, the feedback, and, perhaps most importantly, the iterations upon iterations towards a better make.
>  
> This spoke to my own learning in programming - I think I learned (and got confidence) more from debugging and being stuck than simply making.  The sense of accomplishment of overcoming things that seemed really hard at first have motivated me more than anything ( I think those experiences are why I am crazy enough to think I can 'teach' now :)
>  I suggested once  that 'debugging' be a web literacy, but I've never really been able to explain why.    It's also why (I think) working with kids, we shouldn't get hung up on finishing projects or even making ones we're always proud of (why perhaps picking the best ones to display isn't always inline with the effort that resulted in the best learning).  
>  
> Anyway - thanks - I shared this with our Learning Creative Learning group as well , and also good feedback.
>  
> On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 7:09 AM, Rafi Santo <rsa...@indiana.edu (mailto:rsa...@indiana.edu)> wrote:
> > Hey folks,
> >  
> > So I've been reflecting recently on the "making is learning" meme, and while I love the ethos, I've been wanting to make sure we don't lose some of the nuance of what we actually mean when we talk about the powerful intersection of making and learning. A post with some thoughts here:
> > http://empathetics.org/2013/02/12/is-making-learning-considerations-as-education-embraces-the-maker-movement/
> >  
> > Of course welcome to feedback/conversation, either here or on the blog. I'm sure folks in the Learning Creative Learning course might have thoughts as they dive into the Papert readings there...
> >  
> > Cheers,
> > Rafi
> >  
> >  
> > --
> > Rafi Santo
> > Learning Sciences
> > Indiana University
> > www.empathetics.org (http://www.empathetics.org)
> >  
> > _______________________________________________
> > webmaker mailing list
> > webm...@lists.mozilla.org (mailto:webm...@lists.mozilla.org)
> > https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/webmaker
>  

Re: Is Making Learning? Christopher Lawrence 2/12/13 2:35 PM
Great points/post Rafi

The tension I think exists on how you build a movement with a certain brevity of messaging that is also underscored by deeper understandings. One slight change we made upon advice from  Elyse Eidman-Aadahl from the National Writing Project was using "as" instead of "is" in the making/learning phrase. Hopefully this begins to signal a more nuanced approach even in admittedly slogan based communication.

Also one strength of a northstar style slogan is that engaged and "hacktivated" contributors build the path and explanations toward that aspirational and slightly unrealistic vision, collectively building a plethora of _________ as Learning memes that still serve the inspirational vision.


Chris Lawrence
Senior Director, Mozilla Mentor Community
718-757-0843
SKYPE: chrislarry33
twitter.com/chrislarry33
Blog: explorecreateshare.org

On Feb 12, 2013, at 3:42 PM, Emma Irwin wrote:

> Hi Rafi,
>
> Just wanted to say how much I enjoyed this post , especially this bit:
>
>
> *It’s about all the things that happen around the making. That initial
> spark of curiosity, the investigation and early tinkering, the planning and
> research that follow, the inspirations and appropriations from other
> projects, the prototypes, the failures, the feedback, and, perhaps most
> importantly, the iterations upon iterations towards a better make.*
>
> This spoke to my own learning in programming - I think I learned (and got
> confidence) more from debugging and being stuck than simply making.  The
> sense of accomplishment of overcoming things that seemed really hard at
> first have motivated me more than anything ( I think those experiences are
> why I am crazy enough to think I can 'teach' now :)
> I suggested once  that 'debugging' be a web literacy, but I've never
> really been able to explain why.    It's also why (I think) working with
> kids, we shouldn't get hung up on finishing projects or even making ones
> we're always proud of (why perhaps picking the best ones to display isn't
> always inline with the effort that resulted in the best learning).
>
> Anyway - thanks - I shared this with our Learning Creative Learning group
> as well , and also good feedback.
>
> On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 7:09 AM, Rafi Santo <rsa...@indiana.edu> wrote:
>
>> Hey folks,
>>
>> So I've been reflecting recently on the "making is learning" meme, and
>> while I love the ethos, I've been wanting to make sure we don't lose some
>> of the nuance of what we actually mean when we talk about the powerful
>> intersection of making and learning. A post with some thoughts here:
>>
>> http://empathetics.org/2013/02/12/is-making-learning-considerations-as-education-embraces-the-maker-movement/
>>
>> Of course welcome to feedback/conversation, either here or on the blog.
>> I'm sure folks in the Learning Creative Learning course might have thoughts
>> as they dive into the Papert readings there...
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Rafi
>>
>>
>> --
>> Rafi Santo
>> Learning Sciences
>> Indiana University
>> www.empathetics.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> webmaker mailing list
>> webm...@lists.mozilla.org
>> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/webmaker
>>
> _______________________________________________
> webmaker mailing list
> webm...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/webmaker

Re: Is Making Learning? Rafi Santo 2/12/13 3:02 PM
Yeah, I was definitely feeling the messaging pain there - "Making is Learning when done in Complex Social Contexts" doesn't exactly roll off the tongue... ; )

I like Elyse's suggestion - it definitely implies a bit of the nuance. Our lab went with "Make-to-Learn" and I've been using "Maker-driven Learning" as they both employ subtle shifts in the right direction in my mind.

But for sure, I don't think every tagline can communicate the whole kit 'n kaboodle, nor should it. Tag lines are there to inspire and let people easily orient. I mostly wrote up the post to do some of the explanatory work you alluded to help us keep in mind in the larger vision. And that vision is totally evident in so much of the mentor strategy already. : )  

--  
Rafi Santo
Learning Sciences
Indiana University
www.empathetics.org


On Tuesday, February 12, 2013 at 5:35 PM, Christopher Lawrence wrote:

> Great points/post Rafi
>  
> The tension I think exists on how you build a movement with a certain brevity of messaging that is also underscored by deeper understandings. One slight change we made upon advice from  Elyse Eidman-Aadahl from the National Writing Project was using "as" instead of "is" in the making/learning phrase. Hopefully this begins to signal a more nuanced approach even in admittedly slogan based communication.
>  
> Also one strength of a northstar style slogan is that engaged and "hacktivated" contributors build the path and explanations toward that aspirational and slightly unrealistic vision, collectively building a plethora of _________ as Learning memes that still serve the inspirational vision.
>  
>  
> Chris Lawrence
> Senior Director, Mozilla Mentor Community
> 718-757-0843
> SKYPE: chrislarry33
> twitter.com/chrislarry33 (http://twitter.com/chrislarry33)
>  
> Blog: explorecreateshare.org (http://explorecreateshare.org)
>  
>  
>  
> On Feb 12, 2013, at 3:42 PM, Emma Irwin wrote:
> > Hi Rafi,
> >  
> > Just wanted to say how much I enjoyed this post , especially this bit:
> >  
> >  
> > *It’s about all the things that happen around the making. That initial
> > spark of curiosity, the investigation and early tinkering, the planning and
> > research that follow, the inspirations and appropriations from other
> > projects, the prototypes, the failures, the feedback, and, perhaps most
> > importantly, the iterations upon iterations towards a better make.*
> >  
> > This spoke to my own learning in programming - I think I learned (and got
> > confidence) more from debugging and being stuck than simply making.  The
> > sense of accomplishment of overcoming things that seemed really hard at
> > first have motivated me more than anything ( I think those experiences are
> > why I am crazy enough to think I can 'teach' now :)
> > I suggested once  that 'debugging' be a web literacy, but I've never
> > really been able to explain why.    It's also why (I think) working with
> > kids, we shouldn't get hung up on finishing projects or even making ones
> > we're always proud of (why perhaps picking the best ones to display isn't
> > always inline with the effort that resulted in the best learning).
> >  
> > Anyway - thanks - I shared this with our Learning Creative Learning group
> > as well , and also good feedback.
> >  
> > On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 7:09 AM, Rafi Santo <rsa...@indiana.edu (mailto:rsa...@indiana.edu)> wrote:
> >  
> > > Hey folks,
> > >  
> > > So I've been reflecting recently on the "making is learning" meme, and
> > > while I love the ethos, I've been wanting to make sure we don't lose some
> > > of the nuance of what we actually mean when we talk about the powerful
> > > intersection of making and learning. A post with some thoughts here:
> > >  
> > > http://empathetics.org/2013/02/12/is-making-learning-considerations-as-education-embraces-the-maker-movement/
> > >  
> > > Of course welcome to feedback/conversation, either here or on the blog.
> > > I'm sure folks in the Learning Creative Learning course might have thoughts
> > > as they dive into the Papert readings there...
> > >  
> > > Cheers,
> > > Rafi
> > >  
> > >  
> > > --
> > > Rafi Santo
> > > Learning Sciences
> > > Indiana University
> > > www.empathetics.org (http://www.empathetics.org)
> > >  
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > webmaker mailing list
> > > webm...@lists.mozilla.org (mailto:webm...@lists.mozilla.org)
> > > https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/webmaker
> > >  
> > _______________________________________________
> > webmaker mailing list
> > webm...@lists.mozilla.org (mailto:webm...@lists.mozilla.org)
> > https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/webmaker
>  

Re: Is Making Learning? Carla Casilli, Badge System Design Lead 2/12/13 3:17 PM
Hey all,

I love this conversation and very much appreciate the nuance invested in the choice of "as" rather than "is." We could have many conversations about the value of making (in the vein of learning by doing) versus simply watching and regurgitating. And yet value resides in both approaches.

Let's remain mindful of context and its role in learning experiences. Sometimes foundational learning occurs through observation and pattern-matching. Indeed this is how we learn our native language——through aural observation. This perceptual learning may be radically different from the way we learn to express concepts and ideas through language——that process is very much about "making" with words. Nevertheless, the former technique is how we learn the construct that allows that latter type of learning——idea transmission using language——to happen.

That said, this seems a nice segue to talk about where we're headed with co-creating the web literacy standard and the badges that will reflect those literacies. We're thinking through how to develop incremental assessments and widgets that will allow people to adopt this standard. Of note in this system is the notion that making is an aspect of literacy but is not its only component. In the same vein as described above, literacy involves many aspects of knowing; quite often that knowing manifests itself into making and doing. Additionally nearly all aspects of knowing serve to inform activities like making.

But occasionally, knowing acts like a magnet and serves to make knowing more things easier and more possible. Knowledge applies itself by seeking other knowledge, and it's by these wondrous accretions and combinations of differing types of knowledge that a person becomes well-rounded. I think that's where we're all headed: helping folks become knowledgeable about something that will empower them not only to make things, but to change things and ultimately to realize that they are the web.

Carla


--
Carla Casilli
Mozilla Web literacies / Webmaker Badges Lead
http://carlacasilli.wordpress.com
Re: Is Making Learning? Carla Casilli, Badge System Design Lead 2/12/13 3:17 PM
Re: Is Making Learning? Laura Hilliger 2/13/13 8:26 AM
+1 to loving the conversation. Carla (in her very well articulated paragraphs) reminded me of this (loosely translated) quote from Humboldt (German educational theorist & linguist):

“Learning a foreign language should in and of itself win you a new position in your past perspective.”

Humboldt wrote about language carrying with it implications of a culture and that only by learning the language can you truly understand a culture. As someone who learned German as an adult (had to!), I'd say this is 150% accurate. There are things that simply don't translate, cannot be spoken, cannot be concretely explained in another language.

I think that this applies to the language of the Web as well. The Web has a culture all its own.

Making, for example, a digital story is a way of embracing that culture. And learning to make digital stories is a step towards learning the language of the web. Also, I'd say the people in Web Culture speak multiple languages - we speak things like Internet Meme and Digital Stories, and a variety of coding languages.

Because web culture is built from a variety of "languages" (code, visual, communicative), I'd imagine many different people approach teaching and learning different components of those languages in different ways. Which seems like a good segue to the Mentor Community work, which will help us distribute and decentralize the different and creative ways mentors MAKE curricular content that involves MAKING as a core component in learning (whether that making be manifested digitally, physically or mentally).

--laura

Laura Hilliger
Mozilla Foundation
http://wiki.mozilla.org/Webmaker/Teach
www.zythepsary.com
@epilepticrabbit
> _______________________________________________
> webmaker mailing list
> webm...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/webmaker

Re: Is Making Learning? Mark Surman 2/13/13 10:50 AM
Another +1 to loving this conversation.

It's a great example of the kind of thought leadership we need. And,
also includes lots of practical nuggets we can pull back into product
design.

I wrote some reflections here:

https://commonspace.wordpress.com/2013/02/13/tinkering-together-2-things-webmaker-needs/

Text pasted below so that it's also here as part of the thread.

- ms

PS. Text of blog post:

*Tinkering Together*

*'Making is learning' is a big theme for Mozilla this year
<http://commonspace.wordpress.com/2012/11/26/makingislearning/>.* It's
at the heart of Mozilla Webmaker <http://webmaker.org>. More
importantly, it's the north star idea guiding the grassroots mentor
community we're building
<http://explorecreateshare.org/2013/02/11/webmaker-mentors-in-2013/>
around the world. We want millions more people to get their hands dirty
with the web. And we expect they'll learn something as they do.

I realized today that *we need to add two concepts into this theme:
tinkering and social*. This thought came from agood discussion
<https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#%21topic/mozilla.webmaker/4JCkGeIUPak>
on the Webmaker mailing that starts with the question 'is making
learning?' Rafi Santos
<http://empathetics.org/2013/02/12/is-making-learning-considerations-as-education-embraces-the-maker-movement/>
both asked and began to answer this question:

    The short answer: yes, but it�s complicated. The longer answer is
    that the best maker-driven learning is never just about the making.
    It�s about all the things that happen around the making. That
    initial spark of curiosity, the investigation and early tinkering,
    the planning and research that follow, the inspirations and
    appropriations from other projects, the prototypes, the failures,
    the feedback, and, perhaps most importantly, the iterations upon
    iterations towards a better make.

He then went on to say:

    I�m willing to say that someone is always learning something when
    they�re making, but they learn best when it entails the sort of
    process, community and well configured structures of participation.

In part, the discussion around Rafi's post is a debate about tag lines.
Should we rally people under a 'making is learning' banner? Or should we
be more subtle like 'making as learning' or 'make to learn'? We'll
probably do the later.

However, there are also two important substantive points worth pulling
out from the conversation**: a) it's *the process of making* that drives
learning and b) the best learning happens when the *making is social*.
Both of these points are *critical to the success of Webmaker*.

The process point may be obvious. It's not just what I made, it's the
journey of the making. But it's worth calling it out explicitly. Mozilla
Rep Emma Irwin <http://tiptoes.ca/> writes in response to Rafi's post:

    This spoke to my own learning in programming. I think I learned (and
    got confidence) more from debugging and being stuck than simply
    making. The sense of accomplishment of overcoming things that seemed
    really hard at first have motivated me more than anything. I think
    those experiences are why I am crazy enough to think I can 'teach' now.

*Designing tinkering and iteration into Webmaker is critical.* A first
step is creating content built from the ground up for remix. And, then
to support that with tools that let you tinker and play with that
content, and share it again with your friends. The idea is to use remix
as an onramp to tinkering with the web.

You see an early example in Jacob's awesome Valentine's video project on
Webmaker.org
<https://webmaker.org/en-US/projects/show-them-some-love-internet-style/>.
The thing about this video: it is designed to be forked. It wants you to
add your own photos and change the text. It's an invitation to tinker.
It's an early invitation, to be sure: we clearly have a lot to learn
about how to do this well. But it's clear to me that this kind of
*design for tinkering is 'thing #1' of key things Webmaker needs to pull
in from this conversation*.

Rafi's other big point is about social: we learn best when we make
together. Making together can mean a lot of things. At events. In
school. With friends at home. In IRC. On Facebook. Etc. What all of
these things have in common is that I can see what you are making and
you can see me. We can critique each other. We can help each other. We
can fail together. We can iterate together. And we can laugh together.
Which makes learning funner, faster and deeper.

*Making it easy to 'make things together' is 'thing #2' that Webmaker
should pull from this conversation.* Making it easy to riff on content
on Webmaker.org and in places like Facebook will be a part of this. But,
as Rafi hints in his post, the most important factor here won't be tools
and web sites: it will be people. This is why thebuilding a global
mentor community
<http://explorecreateshare.org/2013/02/11/webmaker-mentors-in-2013/> is
such a huge priority. Everyone needs a place where they can just show up
to make and learn. A place filled with people. And a place you can find
in 100s of cities around the world. Building on Hive
<http://explorecreateshare.org> and ReMo
<https://wiki.mozilla.org/Webmaker/Teach/TrainingDays>, I think Mozilla
can create this place. It's what we want our mentor community to be.

Anyways: thanks Rafi, Emma and others for getting this conversation
started. It's the kind of leadership this nascent Webmaker community
needs. And it's a great way to dig into what do we really want to build
together with Webmaker.


On 13-02-13 11:26 AM, Laura Hilliger wrote:
> +1 to loving the conversation. Carla (in her very well articulated paragraphs) reminded me of this (loosely translated) quote from Humboldt (German educational theorist & linguist):
>
> �Learning a foreign language should in and of itself win you a new position in your past perspective.�
>
> Humboldt wrote about language carrying with it implications of a culture and that only by learning the language can you truly understand a culture. As someone who learned German as an adult (had to!), I'd say this is 150% accurate. There are things that simply don't translate, cannot be spoken, cannot be concretely explained in another language.
>
> I think that this applies to the language of the Web as well. The Web has a culture all its own.
>
> Making, for example, a digital story is a way of embracing that culture. And learning to make digital stories is a step towards learning the language of the web. Also, I'd say the people in Web Culture speak multiple languages - we speak things like Internet Meme and Digital Stories, and a variety of coding languages.
>
> Because web culture is built from a variety of "languages" (code, visual, communicative), I'd imagine many different people approach teaching and learning different components of those languages in different ways. Which seems like a good segue to the Mentor Community work, which will help us distribute and decentralize the different and creative ways mentors MAKE curricular content that involves MAKING as a core component in learning (whether that making be manifested digitally, physically or mentally).
>
> --laura
>
> Laura Hilliger
> Mozilla Foundation
> http://wiki.mozilla.org/Webmaker/Teach
> www.zythepsary.com
> @epilepticrabbit
>
> On Feb 13, 2013, at 12:17 AM, Carla Casilli <c.ca...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hey all,
>>
>> I love this conversation and very much appreciate the nuance invested in the choice of "as" rather than "is." We could have many conversations about the value of making (in the vein of learning by doing) versus simply watching and regurgitating. And yet value resides in both approaches.
>>
>> Let's remain mindful of context and its role in learning experiences. Sometimes foundational learning occurs through observation and pattern-matching. Indeed this is how we learn our native language��through aural observation. This perceptual learning may be radically different from the way we learn to express concepts and ideas through language��that process is very much about "making" with words. Nevertheless, the former technique is how we learn the construct that allows that latter type of learning��idea transmission using language��to happen.
Re: Is Making Learning? Mark Surman 2/13/13 10:50 AM
> +1 to loving the conversation. Carla (in her very well articulated paragraphs) reminded me of this (loosely translated) quote from Humboldt (German educational theorist & linguist):
>
> �Learning a foreign language should in and of itself win you a new position in your past perspective.�
>
> Humboldt wrote about language carrying with it implications of a culture and that only by learning the language can you truly understand a culture. As someone who learned German as an adult (had to!), I'd say this is 150% accurate. There are things that simply don't translate, cannot be spoken, cannot be concretely explained in another language.
>
> I think that this applies to the language of the Web as well. The Web has a culture all its own.
>
> Making, for example, a digital story is a way of embracing that culture. And learning to make digital stories is a step towards learning the language of the web. Also, I'd say the people in Web Culture speak multiple languages - we speak things like Internet Meme and Digital Stories, and a variety of coding languages.
>
> Because web culture is built from a variety of "languages" (code, visual, communicative), I'd imagine many different people approach teaching and learning different components of those languages in different ways. Which seems like a good segue to the Mentor Community work, which will help us distribute and decentralize the different and creative ways mentors MAKE curricular content that involves MAKING as a core component in learning (whether that making be manifested digitally, physically or mentally).
>
> --laura
>
> Laura Hilliger
> Mozilla Foundation
> http://wiki.mozilla.org/Webmaker/Teach
> www.zythepsary.com
> @epilepticrabbit
>
> On Feb 13, 2013, at 12:17 AM, Carla Casilli <c.ca...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hey all,
>>
>> I love this conversation and very much appreciate the nuance invested in the choice of "as" rather than "is." We could have many conversations about the value of making (in the vein of learning by doing) versus simply watching and regurgitating. And yet value resides in both approaches.
>>
>> Let's remain mindful of context and its role in learning experiences. Sometimes foundational learning occurs through observation and pattern-matching. Indeed this is how we learn our native language��through aural observation. This perceptual learning may be radically different from the way we learn to express concepts and ideas through language��that process is very much about "making" with words. Nevertheless, the former technique is how we learn the construct that allows that latter type of learning��idea transmission using language��to happen.
Re: Is Making Learning? Mark Surman 2/13/13 10:50 AM
> +1 to loving the conversation. Carla (in her very well articulated paragraphs) reminded me of this (loosely translated) quote from Humboldt (German educational theorist & linguist):
>
> �Learning a foreign language should in and of itself win you a new position in your past perspective.�
>
> Humboldt wrote about language carrying with it implications of a culture and that only by learning the language can you truly understand a culture. As someone who learned German as an adult (had to!), I'd say this is 150% accurate. There are things that simply don't translate, cannot be spoken, cannot be concretely explained in another language.
>
> I think that this applies to the language of the Web as well. The Web has a culture all its own.
>
> Making, for example, a digital story is a way of embracing that culture. And learning to make digital stories is a step towards learning the language of the web. Also, I'd say the people in Web Culture speak multiple languages - we speak things like Internet Meme and Digital Stories, and a variety of coding languages.
>
> Because web culture is built from a variety of "languages" (code, visual, communicative), I'd imagine many different people approach teaching and learning different components of those languages in different ways. Which seems like a good segue to the Mentor Community work, which will help us distribute and decentralize the different and creative ways mentors MAKE curricular content that involves MAKING as a core component in learning (whether that making be manifested digitally, physically or mentally).
>
> --laura
>
> Laura Hilliger
> Mozilla Foundation
> http://wiki.mozilla.org/Webmaker/Teach
> www.zythepsary.com
> @epilepticrabbit
>
> On Feb 13, 2013, at 12:17 AM, Carla Casilli <c.ca...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hey all,
>>
>> I love this conversation and very much appreciate the nuance invested in the choice of "as" rather than "is." We could have many conversations about the value of making (in the vein of learning by doing) versus simply watching and regurgitating. And yet value resides in both approaches.
>>
>> Let's remain mindful of context and its role in learning experiences. Sometimes foundational learning occurs through observation and pattern-matching. Indeed this is how we learn our native language��through aural observation. This perceptual learning may be radically different from the way we learn to express concepts and ideas through language��that process is very much about "making" with words. Nevertheless, the former technique is how we learn the construct that allows that latter type of learning��idea transmission using language��to happen.
Re: Is Making Learning? Rafi Santo 2/14/13 7:36 AM
Mark, lots of great stuff in here.  

To start with, I actually love the tag line of "Tinkering Together" - I think it gets at so much of the ethos and values of Webmaker. Also, if you put it all together "Webmaker: Tinkering Together" to me sounds better than "Webmaker: Making as Learning", which doubles up on the "make". You do lose the learning angle though. What if it was some hybrid like "Webmaker. Tinkering Together. Learning Together."?

More broadly, I think you've distilled well the most important points from the broader conversation on the list: designing for tinkerability/remixing, and designing a social learning experience. And that design process is at the intersection of tools and community - tools have to support both, community drives both.  

--  
Rafi Santo
Learning Sciences
Indiana University
www.empathetics.org


On Wednesday, February 13, 2013 at 1:50 PM, Mark Surman wrote:

> Another +1 to loving this conversation.  
>  
> It's a great example of the kind of thought leadership we need. And, also includes lots of practical nuggets we can pull back into product design.
>  
> I wrote some reflections here:
>  
> https://commonspace.wordpress.com/2013/02/13/tinkering-together-2-things-webmaker-needs/
>  
> Text pasted below so that it's also here as part of the thread.
>  
> - ms
>  
> PS. Text of blog post:
>  
> Tinkering Together
> 'Making is learning' is a big theme for Mozilla this year (http://commonspace.wordpress.com/2012/11/26/makingislearning/). It's at the heart of Mozilla Webmaker (http://webmaker.org). More importantly, it's the north star idea guiding the grassroots mentor community we're building (http://explorecreateshare.org/2013/02/11/webmaker-mentors-in-2013/) around the world. We want millions more people to get their hands dirty with the web. And we expect they'll learn something as they do.  
> I realized today that we need to add two concepts into this theme: tinkering and social. This thought came from a good discussion (https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#%21topic/mozilla.webmaker/4JCkGeIUPak) on the Webmaker mailing that starts with the question 'is making learning?' Rafi Santos (http://empathetics.org/2013/02/12/is-making-learning-considerations-as-education-embraces-the-maker-movement/) both asked and began to answer this question:
> > The short answer: yes, but it’s complicated. The longer answer is that the best maker-driven learning is never just about the making. It’s about all the things that happen around the making. That initial spark of curiosity, the investigation and early tinkering, the planning and research that follow, the inspirations and appropriations from other projects, the prototypes, the failures, the feedback, and, perhaps most importantly, the iterations upon iterations towards a better make.
>  
> He then went on to say:
> > I’m willing to say that someone is always learning something when they’re making, but they learn best when it entails the sort of process, community and well configured structures of participation.
>  
> In part, the discussion around Rafi's post is a debate about tag lines. Should we rally people under a 'making is learning' banner? Or should we be more subtle like 'making as learning' or 'make to learn'? We'll probably do the later.
> However, there are also two important substantive points worth pulling out from the conversation: a) it's the process of making that drives learning and b) the best learning happens when the making is social. Both of these points are critical to the success of Webmaker.
> The process point may be obvious. It's not just what I made, it's the journey of the making. But it's worth calling it out explicitly. Mozilla Rep Emma Irwin (http://tiptoes.ca/) writes in response to Rafi's post:
> > This spoke to my own learning in programming. I think I learned (and got confidence) more from debugging and being stuck than simply making. The sense of accomplishment of overcoming things that seemed really hard at first have motivated me more than anything. I think those experiences are why I am crazy enough to think I can 'teach' now.
>  
> Designing tinkering and iteration into Webmaker is critical. A first step is creating content built from the ground up for remix. And, then to support that with tools that let you tinker and play with that content, and share it again with your friends. The idea is to use remix as an onramp to tinkering with the web.
> You see an early example in Jacob's awesome Valentine's video project on Webmaker.org (https://webmaker.org/en-US/projects/show-them-some-love-internet-style/). The thing about this video: it is designed to be forked. It wants you to add your own photos and change the text. It's an invitation to tinker. It's an early invitation, to be sure: we clearly have a lot to learn about how to do this well. But it's clear to me that this kind of design for tinkering is 'thing #1' of key things Webmaker needs to pull in from this conversation.
> Rafi's other big point is about social: we learn best when we make together. Making together can mean a lot of things. At events. In school. With friends at home. In IRC. On Facebook. Etc. What all of these things have in common is that I can see what you are making and you can see me. We can critique each other. We can help each other. We can fail together. We can iterate together. And we can laugh together. Which makes learning funner, faster and deeper.
> Making it easy to 'make things together' is 'thing #2' that Webmaker should pull from this conversation. Making it easy to riff on content on Webmaker.org (http://Webmaker.org) and in places like Facebook will be a part of this. But, as Rafi hints in his post, the most important factor here won't be tools and web sites: it will be people. This is why the building a global mentor community (http://explorecreateshare.org/2013/02/11/webmaker-mentors-in-2013/) is such a huge priority. Everyone needs a place where they can just show up to make and learn. A place filled with people. And a place you can find in 100s of cities around the world. Building on Hive (http://explorecreateshare.org) and ReMo (https://wiki.mozilla.org/Webmaker/Teach/TrainingDays), I think Mozilla can create this place. It's what we want our mentor community to be.
> Anyways: thanks Rafi, Emma and others for getting this conversation started. It's the kind of leadership this nascent Webmaker community needs. And it's a great way to dig into what do we really want to build together with Webmaker.
>  
> On 13-02-13 11:26 AM, Laura Hilliger wrote:
> > +1 to loving the conversation. Carla (in her very well articulated paragraphs) reminded me of this (loosely translated) quote from Humboldt (German educational theorist & linguist): “Learning a foreign language should in and of itself win you a new position in your past perspective.” Humboldt wrote about language carrying with it implications of a culture and that only by learning the language can you truly understand a culture. As someone who learned German as an adult (had to!), I'd say this is 150% accurate. There are things that simply don't translate, cannot be spoken, cannot be concretely explained in another language. I think that this applies to the language of the Web as well. The Web has a culture all its own. Making, for example, a digital story is a way of embracing that culture. And learning to make digital stories is a step towards learning the language of the web. Also, I'd say the people in Web Culture speak multiple languages - we speak things like Internet Meme and Digital Stories, and a variety of coding languages. Because web culture is built from a variety of "languages" (code, visual, communicative), I'd imagine many different people approach teaching and learning different components of those languages in different ways. Which seems like a good segue to the Mentor Community work, which will help us distribute and decentralize the different and creative ways mentors MAKE curricular content that involves MAKING as a core component in learning (whether that making be manifested digitally, physically or mentally). --laura Laura Hilliger Mozilla Foundation http://wiki.mozilla.org/Webmaker/Teach www.zythepsary.com (http://www.zythepsary.com) @epilepticrabbit On Feb 13, 2013, at 12:17 AM, Carla Casilli <c.ca...@gmail.com> (mailto:c.ca...@gmail.com) wrote:  
> > > Hey all, I love this conversation and very much appreciate the nuance invested in the choice of "as" rather than "is." We could have many conversations about the value of making (in the vein of learning by doing) versus simply watching and regurgitating. And yet value resides in both approaches. Let's remain mindful of context and its role in learning experiences. Sometimes foundational learning occurs through observation and pattern-matching. Indeed this is how we learn our native language——through aural observation. This perceptual learning may be radically different from the way we learn to express concepts and ideas through language——that process is very much about "making" with words. Nevertheless, the former technique is how we learn the construct that allows that latter type of learning——idea transmission using language——to happen. That said, this seems a nice segue to talk about where we're headed with co-creating the web literacy standard and the badges that will reflect those literacies. We're thinking through how to develop incremental assessments and widgets that will allow people to adopt this standard. Of note in this system is the notion that making is an aspect of literacy but is not its only component. In the same vein as described above, literacy involves many aspects of knowing; quite often that knowing manifests itself into making and doing. Additionally nearly all aspects of knowing serve to inform activities like making. But occasionally, knowing acts like a magnet and serves to make knowing more things easier and more possible. Knowledge applies itself by seeking other knowledge, and it's by these wondrous accretions and combinations of differing types of knowledge that a person becomes well-rounded. I think that's where we're all headed: helping folks become knowledgeable about something that will empower them not only to make things, but to change things and ultimately to realize that they are the web. Carla -- Carla Casilli Mozilla Web literacies / Webmaker Badges Lead http://carlacasilli.wordpress.com _______________________________________________ webmaker mailing list webm...@lists.mozilla.org (mailto:webm...@lists.mozilla.org) https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/webmaker  
> > >  
> >  
> >  
> >  
>  
>  

Re: Is Making Learning? Rafi Santo 2/14/13 7:42 AM
Mark, lots of great stuff in here.  

To start with, I actually love the tag line of "Tinkering Together" - I think it gets at so much of the ethos and values of Webmaker. Also, if you put it all together "Webmaker: Tinkering Together" to me sounds better than "Webmaker: Making as Learning", which doubles up on the "make". You do lose the learning angle though. What if it was some hybrid like "Webmaker. Tinkering Together. Learning Together."?

More broadly, I think you've distilled well the most important points from the broader conversation on the list: designing for tinkerability/remixing, and designing a social learning experience. And that design process is at the intersection of tools and community - tools have to support both, community drives both.  

Finally, I think explicit focus on social is really important not just because we need to create learning experiences that are social, but because the actual outcomes we're going for are a combination of technical and social too - ie - it's not just about being able to code, but being able to be part of the broader ecology of making on the web, which entails so much more than that.  
Re: Is Making Learning? Rafi Santo 2/14/13 7:43 AM
Re: Is Making Learning? Mark Surman 2/14/13 8:55 AM

On 13-02-14 10:36 AM, Rafi Santo wrote:
> To start with, I actually love the tag line of "Tinkering Together" - I think it gets at so much of the ethos and values of Webmaker. Also, if you put it all together "Webmaker: Tinkering Together" to me sounds better
Thanks. I like it too.
> than "Webmaker: Making as Learning", which doubles up on the "make". You do lose the learning angle though. What if it was some hybrid like "Webmaker. Tinkering Together. Learning Together."?
Just for the record, I'm thinking of 'making as learning' as a broader
banner for the movement / zeitgeist we're part of. We're going to do a
big tent campaign this summer that's not just us. It's also people like
NWP, Make, Code Clubs, etc. Like Hive on steroids in terms of it's
diversity. That's where I see the 'make' brand fitting in as it's
something alot of diverse groups feel affinity with. Does that make sense?
> More broadly, I think you've distilled well the most important points from the broader conversation on the list: designing for tinkerability/remixing, and designing a social learning experience. And that design process is at the intersection of tools and community - tools have to support both, community drives both.
In particular, I want us to be using Hives as a way to really build this
design practice: working as a community to design for tinkering, remix,
etc. That's something Chris and Leah are actively trying to do in NYC.
I'd love to get you and Kylie involved in thinking about to. It's a very
tangible opportunity to invent a good way of designing for tinkering.

ms
>> Making it easy to 'make things together' is 'thing #2' that Webmaker should pull from this conversation. Making it easy to riff on content on Webmaker.org (http://Webmaker.org) and in places like Facebook will be a part of this. But, as Rafi hints in his post, the most important factor here won't be tools and web sites: it will be people. This is why the building a global mentor community (http://explorecreateshare.org/2013/02/11/webmaker-mentors-in-2013/) is such a huge priority. Everyone needs a place where they can just show up to make and learn. A place filled with people. And a place you can find in 100s of cities around the world. Building on Hive (http://explorecreateshare.org) and ReMo (https://wiki.mozilla..org/Webmaker/Teach/TrainingDays), I think Mozilla can create this place. It's what we want our mentor community to be.
Re: Is Making Learning? Rafi Santo 2/14/13 2:00 PM


On Thursday, February 14, 2013 at 11:55 AM, Mark Surman wrote:

>  
> On 13-02-14 10:36 AM, Rafi Santo wrote:
> > To start with, I actually love the tag line of "Tinkering Together" - I think it gets at so much of the ethos and values of Webmaker. Also, if you put it all together "Webmaker: Tinkering Together" to me sounds better
>  
> Thanks. I like it too.
> > than "Webmaker: Making as Learning", which doubles up on the "make". You do lose the learning angle though. What if it was some hybrid like "Webmaker. Tinkering Together. Learning Together."?
>  
> Just for the record, I'm thinking of 'making as learning' as a broader  
> banner for the movement / zeitgeist we're part of. We're going to do a  
> big tent campaign this summer that's not just us. It's also people like  
> NWP, Make, Code Clubs, etc. Like Hive on steroids in terms of it's  
> diversity. That's where I see the 'make' brand fitting in as it's  
> something alot of diverse groups feel affinity with. Does that make sense?
>  
>  

Absolutely, and helps to clarify how/where we might use this tag and who it can apply to.  
> > More broadly, I think you've distilled well the most important points from the broader conversation on the list: designing for tinkerability/remixing, and designing a social learning experience. And that design process is at the intersection of tools and community - tools have to support both, community drives both.
>  
> In particular, I want us to be using Hives as a way to really build this  
> design practice: working as a community to design for tinkering, remix,  
> etc. That's something Chris and Leah are actively trying to do in NYC.  
> I'd love to get you and Kylie involved in thinking about to. It's a very  
> tangible opportunity to invent a good way of designing for tinkering.
>  
>  

Yeah, this is a very good question about creating the design infrastructure to support a big tent movement around these core values. Some of that is about social practices, some of that is about tech, some of that is about building distribution channels/audiences/sites of engagement where people can contribute and plug in. To me, "open" is a big part of getting this sort of design practice to work, and thinking more about how educators interface with open ethos could help that a lot. What are the tensions/opportunities, where do educators/mentors see value in doing so, where don't they, etc.  
>  
> ms
>  
> >  
> > --
> > Rafi Santo
> > Learning Sciences
> > Indiana University
> > www.empathetics.org (http://www.empathetics.org)