|Marketplace url change to marketplace.firefox.com||Rubén Martín||10/25/12 12:48 PM|
I was told about this bug today:
But I'm unable to find where the discussion of this change took place
(no messages on dev.marketplace or dev.webapps). Can someone help me?
On the marketing side of this: I don't know if this is a final decision
but a have some concerns with this change. Marketplace will have webapps
intended to work in all browsers implementing webapp API, using the word
Firefox will lead to confusions, and why using a .com domain now we are
moving all sites to .org?
Rubén Martín (Nukeador)
Mozilla Reps Mentor
|Re: Marketplace url change to marketplace.firefox.com||Patrick Finch||10/26/12 1:12 AM|
I share many of those concerns, I don't have the background for the
desire for the change though. I've asked some of the folks on the bug
if they can share here, or share with me and I will share here.
Director of Product Marketing Strategy, Mozilla
Mobile: +46 768 444 833
|Re: Marketplace url change to marketplace.firefox.com||Robert Kaiser||10/28/12 8:38 AM|
Rubén Martín schrieb:
> and why using a .com domain now we areThat's in the end my main concern here, as I thought we want to
emphasize our non-profit and "doing good" values and therefore
emphasizing the .org part. Of course, that's in line with the "One
Mozilla" strategy we came up with some time ago, which that URL change
also doesn't align with.
|Re: Marketplace url change to marketplace.firefox.com||Patrick Finch||10/29/12 3:11 AM|
>> Firefox will lead to confusions, and why using a .com domain now we are
>> moving all sites to .org?
>> Regards.To Nukeador's comment in the bug, the discussion should be on list.
This is the rationale for requesting the URL change now, from
"Furthermore, Marketplace is not merely a website supporting products
like other Mozilla.org properties, it's a product in itself. It's also
in service to the Firefox OS brand family rather than a top level
Mozilla brand, which is why it's called "Firefox Marketplace" and its
URL structure follows a Firefox.com naming convention rather than a
Mozilla.org. Lastly, associating the URL with our marquee brand the
world already knows and will continue to know will help the product
succeed by avoiding confusion with both consumers and press.
Changing this now may be technically difficult, but easier to do now
with 100 apps in the Marketplace than when there are hundreds of thousands."
(trying to distinguish between the product name change, and the URL change)
|Re: Marketplace url change to marketplace.firefox.com||Gervase Markham||10/30/12 5:23 AM|
On 29/10/12 10:10, Patrick Finch wrote:Yes.
That doesn't follow. Just because Firefox OS will use the Marketplace
(as will Firefox for Android and Firefox Desktop eventually) doesn't
mean the Marketplace needs to be branded "Firefox". To say so begs the
question at issue: is the Marketplace for apps for Firefox, or is it for
open web apps which work in many places?
(Interestingly, although I don't think we should be taking a lead from
them, the Google Play store is now only lightly Android-branded.)
We should not tie the B2G branding decision to the Marketplace branding
Only if the brand connotations are right. The Firefox brand is our
distinguishing mark, so it says "our stuff, not anyone else's stuff".
Open web applications, by contrast, should be "everyone's stuff". A
Firefox Marketplace says "I'm for Firefox". Unless our goals of
promoting open web apps over closed, proprietary apps for everyone have
changed, this works against them, not for them.
I'm not saying it has to be called the Mozilla Marketplace. It could be
the HTML5 Marketplace, the Open Web App Store, whatever. I am arguing
that Firefox is the uniquely _wrong_ brand for us to use precisely
because of its strong brand qualities. Almost any other brand would be
better for our goals.
That, of course, is true, but says nothing about the wisdom of making
the change. :-)
|Re: Marketplace url change to marketplace.firefox.com||Iacopo Benesperi||10/30/12 7:24 AM|
Gervase Markham ha scritto:
> Only if the brand connotations are right. The Firefox brand is ourcouldn't have said it better myself.
|Re: Marketplace url change to marketplace.firefox.com||Regnard Raquedan||10/30/12 7:56 AM|
I think the use of "Firefox" in Firefox Marketplace is good for these two
1. The mobile OS is branded as Firefox OS and associating it with the
app store is good for launch-- It's the same initial strategy Google used
for Android, where they called their app store "Android Marketplace" It
helped establish the brand for the then fledgling mobile OS and give that
sense of an "ecosystem"
2. This could be a way to widen the scope Firefox brand itself. There's
a risk of diluting the brand strength, but if done properly (like how Apple
transferred it brand equity to telecommunications), the benefit could be
some sort of a "branded house," where there are inter-related components
under the Firefox brand (browser, mobile OS, app store, open web)
I'm not 100% aware of the plans of the Marketing/Brand folks, but I think
there's some good to use the Firefox brand here.
> Interested in promoting Mozilla? Check out the Mozilla Community Marketing
> Guide: http://contribute.mozilla.org/**Marketing<http://contribute.mozilla.org/Marketing>
*Regnard Raquedan, MBA, MSc.*
|Re: Marketplace url change to marketplace.firefox.com||Robert Kaiser||10/31/12 11:17 AM|
Regnard Raquedan schrieb:
> I think the use of "Firefox" in Firefox Marketplace is good for these twoWhich they undid as the system matured, and it's now the "Google Play
Store" (which I find a pretty bad and meaningless name, but it's
completely disassociated with the Android brand now).
Also, the Apple Store is also not the "iPhone Store" or "iPad Store",
and AFAIK we are targeting it to work across platforms and products as
well, so it's questionable if tying to one product brand is good.
That said, I'm even more concerned about the .com URL then the Firefox
I already said why I find that bad and not good. Our "branded house"
always was "Mozilla", creating a second one sounds like not a good idea
|Re: Marketplace url change to marketplace.firefox.com||Regnard Raquedan||10/31/12 12:33 PM|
On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 2:17 PM, Robert Kaiser <ka...@kairo.at> wrote:That's consistent with what I said: That was the launch strategy and when
the marketplace was mature enough, Google switched the branding. And I
think, given Firefox's strong & friendly brand, the marketplace has a
better chance of gaining traction at launch.
|Re: Marketplace url change to marketplace.firefox.com||Majken Connor||10/31/12 1:07 PM|
> Interested in promoting Mozilla? Check out the Mozilla Community Marketing> Guide: http://contribute.mozilla.org/Marketing
Though I think the commenter above has a good point. Since the marketplaces
are currently silos we could call it anything we want and the people using
FirefoxOS will use it.
I think we have to remember the two audiences, user vs industry. Not
everything needs to be aimed at user and in fact Firefox didn't target the
basic user for quite some time. Yes it was for the basic user but it got
there through industry, through early adopter recommendations, web
developer recommendations etc. Mozilla should have plenty of weight in the
industry audience, and the user audience will first be reached through
lock-in, so does it make sense to focus the first push to end users?
The best choice doesn't just depend on greatest impact right away. This
could be an opportunity to strengthen the Mozilla brand to the user
audience because they'll be locked in. If we don't want Firefox to eclipse
Mozilla then we shouldn't take advantage of the fact that currently it does
have greater impact or we're just feeding the problem. Users adopt new
products all the time. If we use Firefox it should be because it's _right_
and user recognition shouldn't be a trump card, it's a problem to solve. A
problem we are a lot better equipped to solve than we were even last year.
If Firefox is right, use it. If Mozilla is right, but user recognition is a
problem, then use it, and tackle the problem.
|Re: Marketplace url change to marketplace.firefox.com||Asa Dotzler||10/31/12 2:01 PM|
On 10/31/2012 1:07 PM, Majken Connor wrote:This is a bit off topic, and I'm pulling your words somewhat out of
context, but I think this is a good question to be asking.
I personally favor Firefox eclipsing Mozilla because of how much more
brand power Firefox has than Mozilla. Obviously this is not universal,
but there can be no doubt that Firefox overall is a much stronger brand
I've been with Mozilla as long as anyone and I have great affinity for
the name and the old dino logo but I don't think it's right for my
sentimentality to negatively impact our opportunities at continued
success so I'm more than happy to let go of the Mozilla brand if that
helps us get where we want to be. (And, if the day comes, I'll say the
same thing about the Firefox brand.)
|Re: Marketplace url change to marketplace.firefox.com||Patrick Finch||10/31/12 2:24 PM|
...and (almost?) all brands die eventually.
If I understand you right Asa, you don't care about what eclipses what
as a consumer-facing brand as long as we achieve our aims, and I agree
What I do think we need is understanding of what our identity is as a
community. I don't think it can be tied up exclusively in a brand for
consumers. Sure, we can all be proud of that brand, but I don't believe
that it can define us in the way that "Mozilla" does.
I even think we have a stronger sense of what Mozilla means than what
Firefox means at this point. I think of it this way: consumers relate
to the product, Firefox. People that care about the future of the
Internet will relate to the movement, Mozilla.
We've sought to imbue Firefox with many of the attributes of the Mozilla
movement over the last few years, but ultimately, Firefox succeeds as a
product, Mozilla succeeds as a movement.
I advocate for a clear distinction in what the two brands represent.
|Re: Marketplace url change to marketplace.firefox.com||Patrick Finch||10/31/12 2:36 PM|
That gets to the nub of it.
But Mozilla was actually more a house of brands (weaker parent and
stronger child brand) than a branded house (parent brand with attributes).
We're making a branded house of products. The assumption is that we and
many other industry partners who see the open web as the way forwards
are going to invest large sums of money and large amounts of effort in
one, strong, consumer-facing branded house: Firefox.
What are the alternatives? Creating more than one house of brands does
not sound like a good idea to me either, nor do the chances seem good of
creating a new branded house. So, that leaves renaming "Firefox" to
That's why I can get behind the idea. We have to focus around as strong
an identity as we can. But in all this, I have to say my instincts have
always been the same as yours.
It was when I considered the alternatives, and the opportunity we have
with partners getting behind a brand, that I could agree with this
(but you'll have to prise the dino from my cold, dead fingers)
|Re: Marketplace url change to marketplace.firefox.com||Nukeador||10/31/12 3:18 PM|
Well, after all the discussion, I think that most of us agree that we
should and will work on Firefox brand. Specially because we are in a
particular moment where this is important since others are going to
invest time and money on it (Firefox OS, Firefox phones...).
The problem here is that the marketplace is not intended to be just for
one purpose, it will be a tool for Firefox but in the long term should
bring the difference to the apps ecosystem, and that's why we have to
reflect our non-profit roots (.org domain) and that's not intended to be
another silo (just for our browser).
Why marketplace name will help Firefox or Firefox OS to be more
successful? As I commented, I don't get it. People will use the product
and the marketplace that comes with the product (not the other way
around), the same way they will use the music player even it's not
called "Firefox music".
So, changing the name will have some benefits I don't really understand
(see previous sentence) and it will have some problems about the message
of being an open cross-platform, cross-browser (even if it's in the
Not changing the name will have some clear benefits in terms of being
consistent with our message and being open to everyone, and it will have
some not-so-clear problems.
The balance for me it's clear, name change will lead us to more problems
PD: Despite only a few mozillians are discussing this issue here, I want
to note that I've been contacted by many supporting this, so it's a
wider opinion than it might appear.
Rub�n Mart�n [Nukeador]
Mozilla Reps Mentor
|Re: Marketplace url change to marketplace.firefox.com||Patrick Finch||10/31/12 3:47 PM|
That assumes that Firefox OS won't allow other app markets, doesn't it?
yes: they are big, non-trivial, and seemingly self-inflicted problems
that strike at the core of the project's identity. -they might still be
worth creating though.
It's less clear to me, but right now, I support this change as giving us
most chance of success in the short term. I look forward to having such
problems to sort out in the long term. (i.e. I hope we're both right.)
Me too. I understand people might find it emotional, but everyone should
feel able to speak up here. And I agree, very few people are able to
whole-heatedly and unreservedly to support this. I am not. But I *do*
|Re: Marketplace url change to marketplace.firefox.com||Majken Connor||10/31/12 4:04 PM|
> Interested in promoting Mozilla? Check out the Mozilla Community Marketing
> Guide: http://contribute.mozilla.org/**Marketing<http://contribute.mozilla.org/Marketing>I think the big key besides brand impact is the amount of work caused by
changing the name and URL. Will we be able to automate any changes so
developers aren't hurt by this? Maybe there is a way to leave it at
mozilla.org but brand it heavily with Firefox to begin with? Like add-ons,
you see the Firefox logo and content catered to Firefox. If I still have up
to date information the logo has a lot of the user recognition.
|Re: Marketplace url change to marketplace.firefox.com||Nukeador||10/31/12 4:09 PM|
El 31/10/12 23:47, Patrick Finch escribió:
>> Why marketplace name will help Firefox or Firefox OS to be moreNot really, I mean people will use our marketplace at first, then they
will be free to jump between others.
I think the name change assumes that the marketplace is a tool to get
people to use Firefox (OS), like our competitors using theirs as silos
to lock-in them to their products, which I think is bad and, as we have
probed, it wasn't the initial plan. If that's the plan, then a wider
discussion is really needed.
Rubén Martín [Nukeador]
|Re: Marketplace url change to marketplace.firefox.com||Asa Dotzler||10/31/12 5:16 PM|
On 10/31/2012 3:17 PM, Rubén Martín wrote:I don't think this is necessarily true. In my view, the long term should
include many marketplaces that can inter-operate. I see no reason that
Mozilla must be the exclusive marketplace for Web apps. Just the
opposite, actually. I think it would be fine for our Marketplace to
target our users and for some other vendor's marketplace to target what
users they see fit and for an independent developer to have her own
marketplace to target users of her particular app or curated collection
of app offerings.
While it's not an ideal analog, I like that there's a Google Play store
and and Amazon store both targeting Android users. Developers can look
for the store that best supports their needs and users can look for the
store that best supports their needs. A Mozilla Marketplace that is the
exclusive store for Web apps is far worse, in my mind, than a Firefox
Marketplace that targets Firefox users and a dozen other stores that
target what ever populations those stores want to target. I'd even be
happy if someone else did such an awesome job with a Web app store or
stores that they made our store obsolete. I'd consider that a success
beyond my wildest dreams today.
This isn't just about consumer discovery. It's about the brand that
attracts developers and partners and other constituencies. Sure, Firefox
OS could label it's marketplace "App Warehouse" and if it occupied the
right place on the home screen, that's where people will get their
Firefox OS apps. But "App Warehouse" isn't likely to be an attractive
brand for app developers or operator/carrier partners or OEMs that might
want to bundle Firefox on their Android devices. Firefox is a highly
attractive brand to those stakeholders.
The Marketplace doesn't even support Firefox on Windows (where 93+% of
Mozilla's user base is today) so trying to get a perfect scheme for a
future where maybe some other browser vendors join the party seems
getting way ahead of ourselves. In the intervening years, I suggest we
go with the brand that's going to get the Marketplace the farthest with
the audiences that we're targeting in the nearer term (Firefox OS and
Firefox for Android.) When we've got that all nailed in a couple of
years and we've got other browser vendors ready to join the party
(assuming we can line that up) then we should revisit the branding. Even
still, I see no reason why those other vendors would want to send their
browser users to our store rather than competing with a store of their
own (hopefully using the same formats.)
I think it has clear problems and that it's not actually open to
everyone and won't be any time soon.
And other Mozillians have also been discussing this issue with other
stakeholders including existing and potential partners and developers
many seem to support a different view.
|Re: Marketplace url change to marketplace.firefox.com||Nukeador||10/31/12 5:59 PM|
El 01/11/12 01:16, Asa Dotzler escribió:
> On 10/31/2012 3:17 PM, Rubén Martín wrote:I see your point and I agree on having different marketplaces for
different users. What I don't share is that our users should be limited
to Firefox ones if webapps could potentially work in other browsers.
>The problem here is that other marketplaces probably won't follow our
values. The question here is, do we want to bring a marketplace with our
values just to Firefox users or to everyone else on the web?
>> The balance for me it's clear, name change will lead us to more problemsThen something have to be fixed in the way decisions are made or
discussed when stakeholders or potential partners are involved in a
discussion most mozillians didn't have a clue that was happening. I
perfectly know and understand there are some situations that have to be
discussed closed-doors now we are dealing with different partners, but I
think this is not one of them.
The worst part of this is that a large group of people who live and
breath mozilla is feeling excluded by the way some situations have been
handled lately, and that is weakening us globally as a community.
|Re: Marketplace url change to marketplace.firefox.com||Stormy Peters||10/31/12 7:41 PM|
On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 6:59 PM, Rubén Martín
One of our values is that others should have the freedom to create and
control their experience online. If we are successful, there will probably
be marketplaces that don't follow the values of many Mozillians. Perhaps
there will be marketplaces that promote left wing politics or right wing
politics. People will also be able to self publish and create very small
niche marketplaces. That will be a success.
> I agree. And many of us are hurt by this and very much want to change it.
Having talked to many of the people involved, I think there was no
intention to exclude anyone. Many of the people that were part of this
decision making process are new to Mozilla. They believe in Mozilla's
mission and they want to contribute and they were trying to get things
done. They consulted and included many groups and had many discussions and
didn't realize they were leaving anyone out. That's wrong but it was not
It's up to all of us working together to figure out how we can make this
work in an inclusive fashion.
One of the fears that those new to open source have is that it looks like
it takes forever to make a decision. We need to educate them on how to
effectively, and quickly, make decisions in an open fashion. We have to
support the need to move quickly while being inclusive. Those of us that
understand open source have to make the process clear and helpful for those
that are not familiar with it.
Another area where I think we need to improve is work weeks. (I believe
this decision was made at a work week.) Mozilla has moved to work weeks as
a way to help globally distributed teams work effectively together. It's a
great way to grow teams. It also has a cost on the people that have to
travel and it excludes people who cannot travel or who cannot afford to
take that much time off work. We need to think of ways to include everyone
in work weeks, even those that can't be there in person, without stifling
any of the creativity and freedom that comes from working as a team and
feeling free from being misquoted or criticized online before the creative
process is done. If others agree, perhaps we could start another thread or
etherpad to brainstorm ways to make work weeks more effective and inclusive
of the whole team.
I honestly don't think the intent here was not to exclude anyone (I say
this as someone who was not part of the discussion) but rather the intent
was to help Mozilla move quickly and successfully to a world where the web
is the platform for mobile. Let's help figure out ways to make that happen
using the strength of our entire community. Let's help the people that made
this decision make even wiser and quicker decisions in the future.
|Re: Marketplace url change to marketplace.firefox.com||Patrick Finch||11/1/12 1:57 AM|
I strongly agree with that. Decisions to extend the Firefox brand will
be of interest to everyone in this group, and at a minimum, the thought
process should be clear for everyone.
Although, I will say this: on matters of branding, discussion is often
difficult because it gets tied up in matters of emotion and taste.
What someone subjectively likes or thinks is cool may be a guide to how
other people will react, but it's a small part of the discussion and not
I'm not saying that is how anyone has behaved on this thread (quite the
reverse), just my observations from years of being involved in branding
"processes", that it can be a disincentive for someone working on
branding from engaging with their community.
-and I also know at least one branding professional who disagrees with
what I just wrote :)
|Re: Marketplace url change to marketplace.firefox.com||Robert Kaiser||11/1/12 1:49 PM|
Asa Dotzler schrieb:
> I don't think this is necessarily true. In my view, the long term shouldMozilla or Firefox? ;-)
That said, sure, I think we all agree on that one. :)
Both of which are more or less mutually exclusive in what devices they
are available on, though. I agree with what you like though when looking
at e.g. also having a more open additional alternative there in F-Droid,
though, which very intentionally sports a .org address on its web site
and has free and open source apps only.
To me it's still a bit appalling though how little FLOSS apps there are
for Android, compared to how much there is for desktop. I sincerely hope
that the open web apps movement can ring in a change that makes mobile
more open and more in control of users, though, that's why I'm very
passionate about us getting this right in terms of the "openness" message.
Do you think that the brand "Firefox" attracts developers most?
Consumers (and I mean those that don't already have a Firefox OS device,
we have won those for the open web app ecosystem anyhow) and commercial
partners probably get attracted to the strong consumers product brand
that Firefox is, that's true. For web developers, I'm not sure, we'd
probably need to investigate that.
There will always be different views. Even about the details, e.g. while
I am not a big supporter of using the "Firefox" brand for the
marketplace, I'm OK with that, while I'm much more strongly opposed to
using a .com domain name for it. There's all kinds of different
opinions, and that's good. Unfortunately, all decisions will leave
someone unhappy. They also will steer us in a way or another in public
and influence our image "out there". Unfortunately, a lot of our
decisions in the last few months make us look like we are turning to be
more and more like just another commercial company. If we still believe
that our non-profit mission is at our core, I think we need to be
careful and at least show some really strong moves in that direction as
well pretty soon, IMHO.
|Re: Marketplace url change to marketplace.firefox.com||Santiago Hollmann||11/2/12 1:23 PM|
I don't know if I didn't understand well, the marketplace will be just
focus on Firefox users? If that is true, what happen with the open web?
Also, the decision about the domain or name is already made? If it has
been made, it would be great if one of the people in charge of made it,
explains us everything so we can move to another thing,but if it has
not made, let's keep talking about this and see what we should do.
Regarding to the URL/name. I have the following thoughts:
- If we are not having any profit from the marketplace, why we should
put it under a .com domain? Having a .org address is a feature that
distinguishesus from the other main marketplacesand the best feature we
have against other marketplaces is we don't take devs money. So, why we
should use a .com URL?
- Why don't we accept the challenge to have an open web marketplace
under the Mozilla brand?
El 31/10/12 21:16, Asa Dotzler escribió:
> This isn't just about consumer discovery. It's about the brand thatIf we are influenced by the OEMs, partners, etc... what happen with the
non-profit organization? what happen with "we answer to no one but you"?
I understand the brand strategies, etc but we have principles over
profits and if we stop doing right things because of people outside of
Mozilla I think it is not a good idea. I wish you could clarify this a
|Re: Marketplace url change to marketplace.firefox.com||Asa Dotzler||11/4/12 2:46 PM|
On 11/2/2012 1:25 PM, Santiago Hollmann wrote:Where is it stated that the marketplace will never be a revenue source?
Imagine that the next huge commercial success (think Angry Birds, for
example) happened in Mozilla's marketplace. Are you saying that Mozilla
should not expect to receive some share in that business?
If a company is making lots of money thanks to Mozilla's products,
promotion, and infrastructure, I see no good reason we wouldn't ask them
to pay something for that. We don't send Google billions of searches and
billions of dollars of search advertising revenue and not ask for a
small percentage so that we can fund our project. Why would we not think
about a commercial app partner the same way?
I'm not asserting policy here. I haven't been paying very close
attention to the Marketplace since right now it doesn't (and won't for
some time) have anything to do with Firefox on Windows, Mac, and Linux
where my focus is, but having heard no specifics myself, I can't imagine
that revenue is completely off of the table as a consideration.
|Re: Marketplace url change to marketplace.firefox.com||Nukeador||11/5/12 1:38 AM|
2012/11/4 Asa Dotzler <a...@mozilla.org>
I agree, we have to find new ways to fund the project and a this should be
one. I don't have a lot information about the planning for this, but I
assume that this percentage will be fair with developers.
|Re: Marketplace url change to marketplace.firefox.com||Gervase Markham||11/7/12 4:15 AM|
On 31/10/12 21:01, Asa Dotzler wrote:
> This is a bit off topic, and I'm pulling your words somewhat out of
> context, but I think this is a good question to be asking.
> I personally favor Firefox eclipsing Mozilla because of how much more
> brand power Firefox has than Mozilla. Obviously this is not universal,
> but there can be no doubt that Firefox overall is a much stronger brand
> than Mozilla.
But they have different brand values.
Patrick makes a good point about product vs. movement. But there are
other distinctions too. As I said above, "Firefox" is "our stuff (and so
not your stuff)". It's a brand which differentiates us from our
competitors. Which is a fine brand value to have, and we need a brand
like that. But it's not a good brand value when you are trying to
promote something as being an open ecosystem.
Just as it would make little sense for us to launch the "HTML5 Browser"
or the "Open Web Browser", it makes little sense IMO for us to create a
marketplace for open web apps and call it the "Firefox Marketplace".
> I've been with Mozilla as long as anyone and I have great affinity for
> the name and the old dino logo
Let's not let the discussion about the dino head derail this discussion ;-)