OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet

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OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet olesendan 8/13/12 2:32 PM
Hi All.
 
I have a question for the ones in the group, thats eating VLC Diet. The question is:
 
How often is it posible for you, to do quality running sessions? never, once a week, every third day or every day.
 
You see. I'm trying the VLC diet, to see if it, does me any good. I been on it for 10 days now, and have not adapted yet. At the same time I'm a competitiv runner, competing in races from 5000mtr. to 50km. Right now I'm returning from an injury, so i'm running 100k a week, just easy running around MAF-15bpm to MAF. This I think is doable on a long term basis. But I want to return to my normal running scheulde where I do three quality runs a week. which would be VO2max, AT, Anaerobic or Speed session.
 
I do have some doubts, that this is possible on the VLC diet, so would like to hear, what you in the group, are able to do on the VLC diet.
 
Greetings from Denmark
 
Dan Olesen
Re: OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet JasonH 8/13/12 2:37 PM
I think how many quality runs you can do per week is different between people regardless of diet so comparing those numbers do not seem sufficient.

That being said it sounds like you are wondering when you can get back to being on your "normal" schedule/capabilities on your VLC diet.

From my single experience I would say it took about 2 wks before I started feeling normal again energy level wise (still running during that time just a little more butt dragging) and probably the full 6-7 weeks before I felt just like before with the same running schedule/speed.

Between 2 wks and 6 wks seemed a bit random with some days normal and some feeling like recovery was dragging a little.  Certainly the first two wks were the most noticeable energy wise for me (and that is also when I started thinking I needed to supplement with carbs just to get the "boost" back).

Some of that adjustment was just learning how to eat on VLC :)

Hope that helps.

Jason

Re: [Minimalist Runner:118259] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet Deacon Patrick 8/13/12 3:27 PM
Do you have a strong aerobic base? If not, then "quality" runs need to look very different while you build that up (over 5-6 months) by running at your Maximum Aerobic Function, at least per Maffetone. I and many others on this group recommend it as the place to start, or recover from overtraining/injury. Highly recommend the Big Book of Endurance Training by Phil 

Also, it is well work taking a hard look at why you run. You say you are a competitive runner. Are you elite? Striving to be elite? If not, then what price are you willing to pay health wise to be "competitive" (whatever that means) vs. recreationally having a blast?

Heal well and have fun running.

With abandon,
Patrick

It's all good (but is it the Best Good?).
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Re: [Minimalist Runner:118259] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet olesendan 8/13/12 11:04 PM
Hi Jason and Highlander
 
Thanks for your answers.
 
What I would like to hear your thoughts about is:
 
When on the VLC diet, are the body capable to refill the glycogen storages in the muscles in a few days? I read at one point, on this list that our liver was able to procude 200-300gr a day, and the brain only uses 20gr. So in my mind, the rest of the glycogen from the liver, could be used to refill storages in the muscles?
 
@JasonH:
1. So you personally, how often do you do quality sessions?
2. what amount of Carbs, have you added back in to your diet? Do you time this intake around your running, like yust aften in "the open window"?
 
@Highlander:
1. I've been running the last 30 yrs, since I was 8yrs old. I'm still having the drive to try to fulfill my pontential as a runner. I find a lot of joy in this process. But I'm no elite, I would call my self an amateur -an racer.
2. what are your thoughts recarding the glycogen storages in our muscles. Do you think they can be refilled on a daily basis, weekly or never.
3. can we adapt to the VLC diet, so we are able to do a 20min session of Hard running, 90-90% VO2max?
 
Greetings From Denmark
Dan
Re: [Minimalist Runner:118319] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet Deacon Patrick 8/14/12 4:24 AM
Dear Dan,

1. I've been running the last 30 yrs, since I was 8yrs old. I'm still having the drive to try to fulfill my pontential as a runner. I find a lot of joy in this process. But I'm no elite, I would call my self an amateur -an racer.
Per Maffetone, my own experience, and the experience of many on this list, it is entirely possible to have little to no aerobic base despite 30 years. I encourage you to read Maffetone's Big Book of Endurance. 

What does it mean to you to "fulfill your potential as a runner?" The temptation of racing is that time and/or place in your own category becomes the definition of fulfillment. Sure there is satisfaction and joy in racing. I do not enter official races, but one memoriable race I had lasted two hours. The finish line was at sunrise on a mesa top. My only competition was the sun. Would I make the finish line first?

My point is this: what would you love about running if you didn't enter any official races ever again? Discover that, and make it part or all of what it means to you to "fulfill your potential as a runner."

I consider myself an unracer (a term coined by Grant Peterson, author of "Just Ride"), and both run and bicycle for delight and joy.

2. what are your thoughts recarding the glycogen storages in our muscles. Do you think they can be refilled on a daily basis, weekly or never.
Yes they can be restored on a near daily basis. Though one effect of following Maffetone training is that you do not need speed work (what you call quality runs -- for me quality means something very, very different) while building, or rebuilding your aerobic base for 3 months a year, and then your races become your speed work (unless you are elite, in which case you may need more to be as fast as possible, but at a price long term). 

3. can we adapt to the VLC diet, so we are able to do a 20min session of Hard running, 90-90% VO2max?
That is precisely the discussion that is happening in other threads currently. There is reference to VLC world record holders, and more. So it seems clear that at least some of us can. I find I need to include some safe starches (potatoes, white rice) several times a week, possibly because of my own deficits due to brain injury, and I rarely exceed my MAF (which for me is just under 140 beats per minute).


With abandon,
Patrick

It's all good (but is it the Best Good?).
Re: [Minimalist Runner:118319] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet Denise Skidmore 8/14/12 4:27 AM
It sounds like you're after a very high level of fat adaptation, but
your training program is not one designed to maximize fat adaptation.
It sounds like you're interested in the longer endurance events,
perhaps you might consider switching to Maffletone style (endurance)
training.

Biology of fat burning:
http://www.philmaffetone.com/aerobic.cfm
Re: [Minimalist Runner:118319] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet gordo 8/14/12 5:13 AM
On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 5:24:39 AM UTC-6, Highlander wrote:
... one effect of following Maffetone training is that you do not need speed work

This is true only during the base-building period, which is well-defined and testable. Once a runner plateaus in a base-building period, Maffetone recommends speed work, albeit with not as much volume as is common.

Gordo
Re: [Minimalist Runner:118331] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet Deacon Patrick 8/14/12 5:39 AM
Exactly. That's why I included this as part of the same sentence...

"... while building, or rebuilding your aerobic base for 3 months a year, and then your races become your speed work (unless you are elite, in which case you may need more to be as fast as possible, but at a price long term)."


With abandon,
Patrick

It's all good (but is it the Best Good?).
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Re: [Minimalist Runner:118331] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet Luis Manuel 8/14/12 6:12 AM
Elite or not, it is usually a good idea to add speedwork prior to the race for a number of reasons.

What Maffetone I think is trying to say.. is that an elite that is doing say 5:15 minute miles at MAF and whose goal race is the ironman Championship (Mark Allen record at around 6 min miles) doesn't needs speedwork. I think Mark Allen disagrees with this btw... 

In other words, for us mortals (according to Maffetone, I think...) we could possible gain more from speedwork than elites.
Re: [Minimalist Runner:118324] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet Doug Sims 8/14/12 6:14 AM
+1 to Denise.

Building an aerobic base is the key to tuning the fat burning engine
of your body. Your focus is on glycogen stores in your muscles, but
you are overlooking the power of using fat as your fuel during your
runs.
This may be less important in a 5k race, but it becomes very necessary
in ones stretching to 50k.

I think that going with a Very Low Carbohydrate diet is an important
first step in kick starting your fat burning engine, but to continue
the momentum, you should refocus your training efforts to optimize how
your body chooses to burn fuel.

Of course, this is all my opinion and I am still experimenting as
well. However, I have little desire for competitive running.
Re: [Minimalist Runner:118333] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet ebank 8/14/12 6:24 AM

+1 Luis.  I definitely think Mafetone sees benefit in speed work. Only after a strong aerobic base, though.

Sent from Android

Re: [Minimalist Runner:118333] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet Luis Manuel 8/14/12 6:41 AM
Another thing... I think apples are being compared to oranges in this tread....

Even though Maffetone is an advocate for low carb, vlc is (I think) a different beast altogether. Except for addressing carb intolerance with  his two week test, I don't think Maffetone ever studied or recommended the effects of prolongued VLC in athletes....
Re: [Minimalist Runner:118339] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet Tuck 8/14/12 6:46 AM
Maffetone's recommendation is to go no-carb for two weeks (similar to Atkins induction), and then find a level that doesn't negatively impact performance or health.  It's actually very similar to the Perfect Health Diet approach.
 
I asked Phil about this when I met him, and he said that he had very little experience with VLC diets, except for one patient who was on a VLC due to T1 diabetes.  She improved her MAF pace by 1 min/mile in two weeks when she started MAF training;  8min/mile to 7min/mile. So it wasn't detrimental.

_________________________________
Tucker
 

Re: [Minimalist Runner:118339] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet Doug Sims 8/14/12 7:01 AM
Oh, and a note to the OP.

This isn't Off Topic (OT). This is more on topic than most of the
recent threads we have had. :)
Re: [Minimalist Runner:118339] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet olesendan 8/14/12 7:23 AM
Hi All
 
Thanks for all your info.
 
Now let me see if I can answer your questions, and at the same time add something to the discussion.
 
@Highlander:
For me the things that trick me is multible. On a daily basis it's a lifestyle, where I do two a day. I love to run in the forrest, and get mental energy from the nature. But at the same time, I get at really kick out off, making a plan do the training, and then kick the younger me(Old PR's) and other at my owen age.
 
Every fall my season starts with 5-6 months with only easy training, with 2-3 medium to long aerobic interval sessions (if one beleaves that intensities up to VO2max is predominant aerobic).
 
My group do in average one race (around 10km) a month during this periode.
 
@Tuck:
So Phil Maffetone, did'nt go VLC with his atlets? did he advocate 40fat-30Pro-30carb as Mark Allen has said to be his Diet.
 
In some exercise litteratur, the believe is that to train your different musclefibres, then you need to work at different intensities. Because the FT fibres need a stronger signal to contract.
 
Some newer studie show that all training makes our musclefibres more aerobic. So actually its very important for sprinters to do a peak periode, to reverse this process (I will digg out the studie)
 
 
I'm a strong believer in the work from Renato Genova. He believes in adding different qualities to the atletes program during the eason, targeting the different events, the athlet is participating in. This means more less, that the program has quality sessions all year round (but the volume varies alot.)
Re: [Minimalist Runner:118344] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet Tuck 8/14/12 7:26 AM
As I posted above:
 
"Maffetone's recommendation is to go no-carb for two weeks (similar to Atkins induction), and then find a level that doesn't negatively impact performance or health.  It's actually very similar to the Perfect Health Diet approach.
 
"I asked Phil about this when I met him, and he said that he had very little experience with VLC diets, except for one patient who was on a VLC due to T1 diabetes.  She improved her MAF pace by 1 min/mile in two weeks when she started MAF training;  8min/mile to 7min/mile. So it wasn't detrimental."

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Re: [Minimalist Runner:118344] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet olesendan 8/14/12 7:50 AM
Hi All:
 
What I trying to do is:
 
1. maximise the adaptation in my body to use fat as fuel, for the highest posible intensity. I am doing this in two ways through the food (VLC) and and right now doing MAF runs.
 
2. Be able to do quality sessions two times a week. For various reasons. In this sessions, I run with the highest possible intensity, that my program dictates, for the day. This means that I will use predorminant glukose as fuel in these sessions
 
3. My thoughts, from my knowlegde, is that my body will have a very hard time resupplying my glycogen storages in the muscles between the quality sessions?
 
4. Will a stategy where I eat Carbs right after the Hard sessions have a detrimanent influrence on the fat burning adaption, from an otervise VLC diet? I'm worried that eating Carbs before a hard session, will introduce an insulin spike, which I don't want?
 
@Tuck:
You do races right? In your diet, do eat Carbs around hard sessions(races), Do you think it influrence on you global diet stategy?
 
Greetings from Denamrk
Dan Olesen
Re: [Minimalist Runner:118339] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet Luis Manuel 8/14/12 8:06 AM
I'm a strong believer in the work from Renato Genova. He believes in adding different qualities to the atletes program during the eason, targeting the different events, the athlet is participating in. This means more less, that the program has quality sessions all year round (but the volume varies alot.)

KudzuRunner
RE: Does it matter how fast you do your long runs? 5/23/2006 3:29PM - in reply to DeanReply | Return to Index | Report Post
Renato:

Thank you for your detailed and extremely interesting posts. We're very fortunate to have somebody like you sharing information.

I'm genuinely curious to know what your opinion is of the so-called "low heart rate training" propagated by Hadd and, in particular, Maffetone. A smart and inquisitive runner named Jesse Leitner has been sharing the results of his one-man experiment with this sort of training on the "Basic Training" forum of Coolrunning.com and there's no question that he's seen amazing results from his willingness to put in lots and lots of easy miles--very easy miles, at heart rates of 72% and less of max. He's a marathoner and ultramarathoner; in one year he lowered his 50 mile time by two hours. He's non-elite, as he'd be the first to admit, but he's serious and dedicated, and he's reported his results in as lucid and thoughtful a way as anybody in cyberspace. The foundation of his training--and Maffetone's, as he interprets is--is aerobic running, especially long runs, at a pace that is rigorously kept to a fat-burning zone, so that threshold paces of any sort are a no-no. Not just easy runs, in other words, but easier-than-necessary runs. Deliberately, ruthlessly gentle runs. 

This training method seems diametrically opposed to your own. I'd love to know what you think, in any case. Those who wish to read the entire FAQ can access it via hyperlink from a thread on "Basic Training" at coolrunning.com that contains the word "Maffetone."

________________________________

........................
Renato Canova
Coach
RE: Does it matter how fast you do your long runs? 5/24/2006 5:10AM - in reply to afasdfReply | Return to Index | Report Post
I wrote all your posts, because now in Qatar are 12:30, lunch time. I'm surprise to see a lot of posts after my last of yesternight. So, I try to answer to many general questions, of course under my point of view.

a) May be that I had some mistake in calculation, because I did everything very quickly. In any case, if 2:32 is 15.2 every 100m, and 3:17 is 19.7 every 100m, the difference (I use this system, please don't come with mathematic...) is 4.5 every km, that is 33% of the time of the fastest pace. So, if 2:32 is 100%, 3:17 is 67%. Of course, if you consider the two full times, we have 77% of effort (152.0 divided 197.0). In any case, this is a fact, you can decide the percentage according to your personal rules.
When I speak about 85% of the speed, I speak about the long run of 25 km, that Shaheen carries out at 3:10 average or faster, using a progressive way (some time last 5 km in 14:30 about).

b) I'm sure that the ability in increasing the ability (forgive my repetition) in using fatty acids is very important, but one thing is to work for increasing this ability for very long run, another thing to increase this ability at fast marathon pace. I adviced one of the Italian winning twice World Championships in 100 km, Mario Fattore, and can say that training for ultramarathons is very simple, because you use ONLY FATTY ACIDS, forget carbohydrates. So, your problems regards other situations : to preserve good fitness for so long time (7-10 hours), to build tendons, ligaments and muscles for that type of duration, to build your mind. But no problems about the source of energy. Also if can seem strange, we need very less training for running 100km that for running a Marathon. For 100km, you have to develop your MAX AEROBIC LIPIDIC POWER, using types of fatty acids able to give more energy in the time unit, and the system of training starts from very slow speeds, at first developing the DURATION (one session every 2 weeks of 60-70 km, and some full marathon like.... speed), after the pace inside the same duration. So, always you use fatty acids, but increasing speed you become able to select the bests in order to develop your Aerobic Power.
Instead, when you want to increase your marathon at high level, YOU START FROM SPEED AT MARATHON PACE OR SIMILAR, and the first step is to use ALL YOUR CARBOHYDRATES in order to run still some minute in total depletion of sugar, for obliging muscular fibres in using THE MOST POWERFUL SOURCES OF FATTY ACIDS in order to maintain a similar speed. For example, if an athlete able running HM in 65.0 wants to prepare a marathon for 2:15 (really not difficult), he can run without big problems 28km at 3:15 pace (1:31), but after this goes to finish his reserves of glycogen, and his pace goes down dramatically. If he is able to run yet 3 km at 3:25 / 3:35 / 3:45, THESE LAST 3 KM ARE THE REAL TRAINING, because his fibres have to go to search some other hidden tank, under necessity. The next time, the same athlete becomes able running at 3:15 not 1:31, but 1:41 (for 31 km), so his long fast run must be extended to 34 km with the last 3 without glycogen.
So, in the first case we start with an empty glass that we go to fill with fatty acids, in the second case we start from a glass full of glycogen that we go to empty step by step, in order to fill the remaining part with qualified fatty acids.

When I speak about FAST LONG RUN, don't think that ALWAYS long run must be fast. If I go to prepare a Marathon, I use one specific long run every week, alternating two different ways : 
a) DURATION - I don't have particular care about the pace. I start from 1:30, and in short time I move to 1:45 - 2:00 - 2:15 - 2:30. This training is at 70% of your HM pace (for ex., if you have a PB in HM of 70.20 that is a pace of 3:20 per km, and is the first time that you want to prepare a marathon, your pace for DURATION can start from 4:20. At the beginning of your training (may be 5 months before your Marathon), once a week you go for DURATION, in order to reach the ability in lasting the full marathon time, in short time, because your long run is very easy.

b) When you are able running, for example, 2:30, you can start to qualify the DURATION using a progression for the last 15:00, after 30:00, and so and so.

c) But, when you are able running 2:30 of DURATION, you start also your training of DISTANCE. Distance is a precise distance (forgive me again), that you go to run at even pace, about 90/95% of your HM pace (and this has to become your Marathon pace). So,. in the previous case, 95% of 3:20 is 3:30. You can start with 24km at 3:30, and the progression is TO EXTEND THE SAME PACE, running 26 and then 28 and so and so.

d) When you have both DURATION and DISTANCE in your program, the system is TO QUALIFY THE SPEED OF THE DURATION, and TO EXTEND THE DURATION OF THE PACE OF THE DISTANCE. You can alternate these 2 long runs, one in one week, the second in the next week. At the end, you become able to build a funnel, where your DURATION is 2:30 at 3:40, and your DISTANCE are 36 or 38 km at 3:30. When you are able to do this, be sure that you can run your full marathon at 3:30 finishing faster the last 10k, and, if you go for a HM one month before your Marathon (of course we can use, in every week, another specific workout of extension : so, no more than 2 workouts per week), your PB can move from 65 to 64 without big problems.
All the other days are for GENERAL VOLUME (many km slow or following your sensation, in any case easy) or for RECRUITMENT OF THE HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF FIBRES (using very short sprints uphill).

e) Regarding the fact of very long run, I want to remind you that, for every type of event and for every specialism, we have 2 different kinds of typologies : the FAST and the RESISTANT. This fact depends from their morphology and their physiology, and in part on their psychology too.
For example, how many strong athletes of 200m can be better on 300m, but are not able to run 400m very well ? And, if there was the official distance of 600m, are you sure that could be Borzakovskiy of Bungei the winner, or not, for example, the best Mutua ? Don't forget that the distances of official T & F are conventional, and every athlete has to adapt his training to them, but probably could have a better distance for his attitude that doesn't exist (remember when, in the past, you have in US, during indoor activity, distance like 500y - 600y - 1000y, and go to see who were the record holders).
For example, if you are an athlete able running 200m in 22.0 and 300m in 34.0, you are RESISTANT ; if you run 21.5 and 35.0, you are FAST. In the second case, forget that you can become a good 400m runner. In the first case. move to that distance soon, and in 3-4 years you become able to run full 400m at the same pace of your 300m before (in this case, 46.5) or very close.
This for explaining that there are runners that NEVER IN THEIR LIFE CAN BECOME BETTER USING LONG RUN. Why ? Because their internal anathomy (muscles and organs) is the anathomy of a sprinter, with more fast fibres and different nervous ability, and a different hormonal system, and different psychology, etc. 
Also among animals there is the same situation : the lyon is a sprinter, and, if is not able to reach the gazelle after 400m, goes to rest awaiting the next victim...
So, don't generalize what I write. My phylosophy in training is to find the best solution for obtaining the best individual results, following the best personal attitudes. But, in the amateur field, everybody wants to do the event that he prefers, not the best for himself. And I suppose that this is right. So, if I see Alan Webb running one mile, and I meet him on an elevator during a meeting with a T-Shirt with written "MILE RUNNER", I tell him "For you is better to write 3 MILES RUNNER" (may be that he remembers this fact), because I think that 12:52 in 5k is better than 3:32 in 1500, and probably in the future 26:40 in 10k can be better than 12:52, and also in the last lap of 10k he can be the faster, in the last lap of 5k can win a medal, in the last 300m of 1500 of sure he has 5 athletes ahead him. So, my advice for TOP ATHLETES regards the way for reaching their best results, not what they prefer of like. But for all the other, I suppose that you must do what you like.


Read more: http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=1363335&page=4#ixzz23X7gJyve
 


Re: OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet Luis Manuel 8/14/12 8:07 AM
I included the whole thing. But b) is where he answers.
Re: [Minimalist Runner:118348] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet Tuck 8/14/12 8:25 AM

"@Tuck:

You do races right? In your diet, do eat Carbs around hard sessions(races), Do you think it influrence on you global diet stategy?"
 
I do races.  I'm in top 10% of finishers on a good day. 
 
I never carb load before a race.  I always have coffee and whipping cream prior to the race.  I've not noticed any difference racing fasted or fed, my times are better now then they used to be, so it hasn't hurt.  When I started doing this, I would get some odd tingly feelings in my scalp... not sure if that was some sign of a bonk.  And if I've run too fast I find that I run low on energy, but don't bonk.  Just walk, and curse. :)  The first time this happened, I tried drinking some gatorade, and it made no difference.  So now I just try to pace myself.
Don't forget, the whole point of this fat training is to raise the capability of the body to generate power from fat.  Your carb requirement should get lower and lower, and ultimately be minimal.  According to Noakes, that's where Mark Allen was: he just paced himself, and won.
 
I find pretty consistently that in races I start craving carbs towards the end of the race.  (The longest races I'm doing right now are 1/2 marathons.)  This does not happen on MAF-paced runs.  If I crave carbs, I'll eat them at the end of the race, which typically means an apple or a banana.  If I do a fast run or mountain bike and finish at my house, then my go-to carb refuel is raw, grass-fed milk and or some hard cider (12g sugar).  I find that that's usually sufficient to kill the craving, and then I go back to the regular diet.  I've also found that even these sugar cravings are falling over time, and if I don't eat anything at the end of the session, then the cravings pass and I forget about eating again.  So I guess my liver is getting better at making glucose... 
 
I'm a big believer in eating foods that you crave, and find one of the most useful aspects of eating a paleo-style diet is that you get craving signals that you can rely on.  I don't crave donuts or junk food any longer at all.
Re: [Minimalist Runner:118350] Re: OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet Tuck 8/14/12 8:28 AM
It sounds like he's saying to train through the bonk, which is very different from Maf, who would have you train to avoid the bonk entirely...

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_________________________________
Tucker
 

Re: [Minimalist Runner:118350] Re: OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet Luis Manuel 8/14/12 8:50 AM
Renato works with uber-talented athletes, the weed out approach can be effective when you have a large waiting list of (pldnty other) hungry world class athletes at your disposal....

Re: [Minimalist Runner:118339] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet JasonH 8/14/12 8:55 AM
I find my "head tingles" are due to lack of salt.  Every single time without fail 10-12oz chicken both = tingles go bye bye :)

Jason

unk...@googlegroups.com 8/14/12 9:10 AM <This message has been deleted.>
Re: [Minimalist Runner:118339] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet gordo 8/14/12 9:34 AM
On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 9:55:44 AM UTC-6, JasonH wrote:
I find my "head tingles" are due to lack of salt.  Every single time without fail 10-12oz chicken both = tingles go bye bye :)

Do the tingles stay with you until you get home? By the time I get home, mine are long gone, without any intervention.

Gordo
Re: [Minimalist Runner:118339] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet Ellen M 8/14/12 9:41 AM


On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 10:34:00 AM UTC-6, gordo wrote:
On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 9:55:44 AM UTC-6, JasonH wrote:
I find my "head tingles" are due to lack of salt.  Every single time without fail 10-12oz chicken both = tingles go bye bye :)

Do the tingles stay with you until you get home? By the time I get home, mine are long gone, without any intervention.

Gordo

I feel head tingles when I go over MAF. Get back at or below MAF = no more head tingles. I wondered if anyone else felt them. Now I know. :) 
Re: [Minimalist Runner:118364] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet Tuck 8/14/12 9:54 AM
Same here, tingles went away as soon as I reduced intensity.

On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 12:34 PM, gordo <gaj...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 9:55:44 AM UTC-6, JasonH wrote:
I find my "head tingles" are due to lack of salt.  Every single time without fail 10-12oz chicken both = tingles go bye bye :)

Do the tingles stay with you until you get home? By the time I get home, mine are long gone, without any intervention.

Gordo

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Re: [Minimalist Runner:118366] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet ebank 8/14/12 9:55 AM
Dan,
I have been VLC for about 3-4 weeks now.  i actually tested my Ketone level Friday afternoon (2 hours after a long easy run - so it might be skewed a bit) and it was 2.6mM.   Until around that point I felt my recovery was still week and I was yet adapted.  Even on Friday I wasn't sure I was fully adapted.  

On Sunday, I did a 56mile moderate bike and 2 hours in I did 20minutes at a "Zone 4" (out of 5 on my scale 90-94% Max) HR. I felt great.  i did a 25 minute run right afterwards in my higher Z2 rate (about up to 10bpm higher than my MAF).  I really felt great all day.  usually after this workout i am tired and wishing my wife would take the kids and I could sleep :) (Obviously, after being out training for 3 hours, i wouldnt do that!)

Also, last Thursday, in the middle of the day in NY (about 90F and fairly humid), I did a session that included 3x12min (@2.5min rest) at HM pace.  I had issues with pace (probably due to heat and my overestimating my pace at this point), but was at a high HR level Z4+ for a good part of it.  I felt pretty good and didn't not hit a wall or bonk.  I bounced back friday morning with a pretty good Masters' swim (I am working on technique right now so didn't go all out) and did the aforementioned 2 hour run later in the day.  

Just some insight.

EB

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Re: [Minimalist Runner:118368] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet Tuck 8/14/12 9:59 AM
You're an animal.
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Re: [Minimalist Runner:118374] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet ebank 8/14/12 10:02 AM
Tuck,
I am going off topic here for a sec.....
1.  I heard you on Jimmy Moores AHS review.  Nice interview.
2.  Van Cortlandt Thursday night?  Last in the Summer 5k series...... Hit me offline.

Ok.  back on topic...
Re: [Minimalist Runner:118364] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet gordo 8/14/12 10:03 AM
On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 10:54:38 AM UTC-6, Tuck wrote:
Same here, tingles went away as soon as I reduced intensity.

Other than the one time, mine always occurred when I was somewhat out of shape and did 30+ minutes at race pace. Got so dizzy one time, I started worrying about falling down.  That time, it took 20 minutes or so of easy walking to calm it down.

Gordo
Re: [Minimalist Runner:118367] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet Deacon Patrick 8/14/12 10:12 AM
Or when Obama left the studio? Sardonic grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

It's all good (but is it the Best Good?).
Re: [Minimalist Runner:118374] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet Luis Manuel 8/14/12 10:16 AM
What AHS interview? (
Re: [Minimalist Runner:118339] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet JasonH 8/14/12 10:48 AM
My tingles are the 2am in the morning kind or sometimes right before bed.  Never had them in the morning/during/after run.

Jason

Re: [Minimalist Runner:118383] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet Tuck 8/14/12 10:55 AM
Jimmy Moore recorded snippets from a bunch of people at AHS.  I was one.  It wasn't an interview.
 
He's a very nice guy, btw.

On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 1:16 PM, Luis Manuel <lmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
What AHS interview? (


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Re: [Minimalist Runner:118348] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet olesendan 8/14/12 2:31 PM
Hi All.
 
You all give me good replies.
 
right now (10 days in at this Diet) I'm at this point. I kan do my runs, which is only easy runs, with a few strides, or a little bit of steady running. But the feeling I have is that I'm sluggiss and slow, I do feel that I'm running at a faster pace, but not i reality.
 
The cravings I'm having a this point is the following. During the day: water, hunger. When I feel hunger, I sometimes crave sugar, but I can satisfy it, cheese, eggs or fish. after workouts, I just eat a meal, to end cravings. I do feel thristy alot, this is new. I think that it is the live producing ketones, and getting with of them?
 
@tuck
1. So you successfully eat a bit of fruit. My thought's is to on my quality days maybe try adding an apple and banana before the workout. after I could use chia seed, honey and beef. But I think that this will compromice the ketonegic state.
 
2. in my world. At the 5km, it's alot about, how much glukose, our mitrochondries can burn. So I want to train this as well
 
3. A couple of weeks ago, I read a studie, where the subjects had a 4week adaptation periode to high fat diet. At the end their VO"max had raisen, and the where able to run at 85% of VO2max with dominant fat utilization.
 
@ck
1. I'm 37yrs, 1.82mt tall, weight 64kg. I train around 10 hours running a week right now. When I was in to triathlon I aimed at 20 hours
 
2. I don't count calories right now. I have been focussing on eating enough so I would'nt feel hunger, and thereby get cravings. But today my diet has been:
150gr bacon, 2 eggs, 3 tomatos, 260gr of rib roast, 150 gr radishes, 150 gr mushroom, 200gr salmon + 2 handful of almonds.

Today I ran 4km at 8am + 18km in this evening

@Ebank
And up ontill this point, how have you been feeling during your training sessions? tired, sloggis. not wanting to pick up the pace, when needed?
 
Greetings from Denmark
Dan Olesen

Den tirsdag den 14. august 2012 18.10.44 UTC+2 skrev ck:
Hi Dan
i find this thread fascinating

this is maybe a tad tangential, but

Dan,  curious how much you weigh and how many calories you are eating? and how many hours are you training a week?  also do you do both low calorie AND low carb? i probably am on a VLC myself simply by default, as i am vegetarian but eat processed foods ONLY on race day, and stick mostly to what grows in nature

reason I ask is that question to you,   is that  i have been practicing a 'train low' -'race high' approach to training for both cycling and running: training on very low carb diet (im vegetarian, as ive mentioned before, so lots of vegetables, more veggies than fruit, some greek yogurt, full fat milk in coffee, ghee,  no eggs, tho',  only dairy), but when i race, i do higher carb on race day, pre and post race, like uber bars, lara bars, some clif bars, etc. And I have been eating the bulk of calories before after event, and tapering off later in day switching to the normal daily diet.

after adopting this way of training/ eating/ racing back in 2010 i had two of my best racing seasons on the bike. now im running and racing and trying to adapt to that. I find that running hits my body way harder than cycling and cannot imagine doing a hard training run on a VLC/ low carb day.

i do find that i can get very hard races in the bank and use them as prep/training --  and have been using races as my hard workouts , but again, these are the days when i 'race high' on the carb scale,--- have never tried doing a hard, hard training day on a 'train low' carb day

Cass

cass

On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 10:50 AM, olesendan <oles...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi All:
 
What I trying to do is:
 
1. maximise the adaptation in my body to use fat as fuel, for the highest posible intensity. I am doing this in two ways through the food (VLC) and and right now doing MAF runs.
 
2. Be able to do quality sessions two times a week. For various reasons. In this sessions, I run with the highest possible intensity, that my program dictates, for the day. This means that I will use predorminant glukose as fuel in these sessions
 
3. My thoughts, from my knowlegde, is that my body will have a very hard time resupplying my glycogen storages in the muscles between the quality sessions?
 
4. Will a stategy where I eat Carbs right after the Hard sessions have a detrimanent influrence on the fat burning adaption, from an otervise VLC diet? I'm worried that eating Carbs before a hard session, will introduce an insulin spike, which I don't want?
 
@Tuck:
You do races right? In your diet, do eat Carbs around hard sessions(races), Do you think it influrence on you global diet stategy?
 
Greetings from Denamrk
Dan Olesen

Den tirsdag den 14. august 2012 16.26.01 UTC+2 skrev Tuck:
As I posted above:
 
"Maffetone's recommendation is to go no-carb for two weeks (similar to Atkins induction), and then find a level that doesn't negatively impact performance or health.  It's actually very similar to the Perfect Health Diet approach.
 
"I asked Phil about this when I met him, and he said that he had very little experience with VLC diets, except for one patient who was on a VLC due to T1 diabetes.  She improved her MAF pace by 1 min/mile in two weeks when she started MAF training;  8min/mile to 7min/mile. So it wasn't detrimental."

On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 10:23 AM, olesendan <oles...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi All
 
Thanks for all your info.
 
Now let me see if I can answer your questions, and at the same time add something to the discussion.
 
@Highlander:
For me the things that trick me is multible. On a daily basis it's a lifestyle, where I do two a day. I love to run in the forrest, and get mental energy from the nature. But at the same time, I get at really kick out off, making a plan do the training, and then kick the younger me(Old PR's) and other at my owen age.
 
Every fall my season starts with 5-6 months with only easy training, with 2-3 medium to long aerobic interval sessions (if one beleaves that intensities up to VO2max is predominant aerobic).
 
My group do in average one race (around 10km) a month during this periode.
 
@Tuck:
So Phil Maffetone, did'nt go VLC with his atlets? did he advocate 40fat-30Pro-30carb as Mark Allen has said to be his Diet.
 
In some exercise litteratur, the believe is that to train your different musclefibres, then you need to work at different intensities. Because the FT fibres need a stronger signal to contract.
 
Some newer studie show that all training makes our musclefibres more aerobic. So actually its very important for sprinters to do a peak periode, to reverse this process (I will digg out the studie)
 
 
I'm a strong believer in the work from Renato Genova. He believes in adding different qualities to the atletes program during the eason, targeting the different events, the athlet is participating in. This means more less, that the program has quality sessions all year round (but the volume varies alot.)
 
 
Greetings from Denmark
 
Dan Olesen
 

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Re: [Minimalist Runner:118425] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet Tuck 8/14/12 2:36 PM
"But I think that this will compromice the ketonegic state."
 
It will.

Re: [Minimalist Runner:118425] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet ebank 8/14/12 2:48 PM

It was taking longer than usual to warmup.  During sessions I was ok.  Recovery was slow and sluggish. 
Add salt.  I think that helped.

Sent from Android

Re: [Minimalist Runner:118427] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet Tuck 8/14/12 2:51 PM
Yeah, salt is one of the things that Volek and Phinney recommend.  I haven't noticed anything from removing it, but it may be that the body needs it to adapt...  Pater Attia also said that he eats lots of salt.  He carries bullion cubes around in his briefcase.
Re: [Minimalist Runner:118427] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet Tuck 8/14/12 2:56 PM
BTW, if you've not seen this:
 
"How a low carb diet affected my athletic performance (Part 4)"
Peter may be a touch OCD... ;)
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Re: [Minimalist Runner:118430] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet ebank 8/14/12 3:02 PM

He's great.

Sent from Android

Re: [Minimalist Runner:118259] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet Luis Manuel 8/14/12 4:14 PM

Your experience is almost identical to mine, it has been smoother for ebank and Jason but I suspect it is because they are a lot fitter...

I am on my phone, when I get home I will try to find the tread about my early experience as well as a another article.

Btw, I don't think this has been mentioned, but this book might help you:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0983490716

On Aug 13, 2012 5:32 PM, "olesendan" <oles...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi All.
 
I have a question for the ones in the group, thats eating VLC Diet. The question is:
 
How often is it posible for you, to do quality running sessions? never, once a week, every third day or every day.
 
You see. I'm trying the VLC diet, to see if it, does me any good. I been on it for 10 days now, and have not adapted yet. At the same time I'm a competitiv runner, competing in races from 5000mtr. to 50km. Right now I'm returning from an injury, so i'm running 100k a week, just easy running around MAF-15bpm to MAF. This I think is doable on a long term basis. But I want to return to my normal running scheulde where I do three quality runs a week. which would be VO2max, AT, Anaerobic or Speed session.
 
I do have some doubts, that this is possible on the VLC diet, so would like to hear, what you in the group, are able to do on the VLC diet.
 
Greetings from Denmark
 
Dan Olesen

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Re: [Minimalist Runner:118434] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet ebank 8/14/12 4:18 PM

Yes.  Excellent book.  Quick read.  I want happy during adaptation.  I think I am happier with this process now.  We will see how it translates to race performance

Sent from Android

Re: [Minimalist Runner:118259] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet Luis Manuel 8/14/12 5:28 PM
Ok, here is my early experience:


This is a great read, start at introduction:


BTW, today (7 weeks into this experiment) I went for a run (7 to 8 miles), at the start decided to turn it into a fartlek just to see what happens... first few sprints were fine but then I (almost) bunked in a mild hill at around the halfway point.... was reduced to a walk and since it was an out and back I thought: "stupid fool!", soon after I started jogging and got distracted... before I knew it I was running at a pretty good pace. Finished feeling like I could do it again...
Re: [Minimalist Runner:118259] OT - Question about hard running and VLC Diet Luis Manuel 8/14/12 5:30 PM
Not sure the first link works, here:

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