Gluconeogenesis

Showing 1-178 of 178 messages
Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/21/12 2:55 PM
"Gluconeogenesis and energy expenditure after a high-protein, carbohydrate-free diet"
http://www.ajcn.org/content/90/3/519.full.pdf+html

--
_________________________________
Tucker
 

Re: Gluconeogenesis JasonH 8/21/12 2:59 PM
"Forty-two percent of the increase in energy expenditure after the H (carb free) diet was explained by the increase in gluconeogenesis."

Sweet!

Jason

Re: Gluconeogenesis JasonH 8/21/12 3:00 PM
Cool they even give the sample diets..

Jason

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119128] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/21/12 3:04 PM
My takeaway from this is that it's not a bad idea to eat some carbs after you get glycogen-depleted.  This is an expensive way to get glycogen... I guess now we know why glycogen stores are down-regulated in some studies on a VLC diet.  It's hard work to fill them back up; possible, but hard work.
 
Although this was 1.5 days, and these folks were no doubt not fat-adapted... So maybe you increase your capability with training, like so many other things.

On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 6:00 PM, JasonH <jaso...@gmail.com> wrote:
Cool they even give the sample diets..

Jason

--
"Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..." hosted by Barefoot Ted
 
Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe



--
_________________________________
Tucker
 

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119128] Re: Gluconeogenesis JasonH 8/21/12 3:08 PM
Well there was no mention of ketones/ketosis so yeah this might just be the "default" mode of carb burners when their carbs are suddenly taken away.  Perhaps things change when you are actually burning ketones for fuel.

Jason

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119130] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/21/12 3:25 PM
They depleted their glycogen stores first.  Ketones don't replace glycogen...

On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 6:08 PM, JasonH <jaso...@gmail.com> wrote:
Well there was no mention of ketones/ketosis so yeah this might just be the "default" mode of carb burners when their carbs are suddenly taken away.  Perhaps things change when you are actually burning ketones for fuel.

Jason

--
"Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..." hosted by Barefoot Ted
 
Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe



--
_________________________________
Tucker
 

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119130] Re: Gluconeogenesis JasonH 8/21/12 3:52 PM
Right but I thought that was the point.  If you are in ketosis your glycogen gets replaced from that..  So without ketosis the gluconeogensis has to extract glucose from the additional protein.  Unless I missed the point of the study, I admit I did not read it carefully yet.

Anyway still cool :)

Jason

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119130] Re: Gluconeogenesis JasonH 8/21/12 3:53 PM
By 'from that' I meant of course gluconeogensis via the ketones..


Jason

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119137] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/21/12 5:58 PM
Ketones are made from fat.  Glucose is made from protein.  Very little glucose can be made from fat or ketones...

On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 6:53 PM, JasonH <jaso...@gmail.com> wrote:
By 'from that' I meant of course gluconeogensis via the ketones..


Jason

--
"Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..." hosted by Barefoot Ted
 
Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe



--
_________________________________
Tucker
 

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119137] Re: Gluconeogenesis JasonH 8/21/12 6:08 PM
Not sure how we got on a different page.  I thought we were talking about replenishing glycogen via gluconeogenesis from fat/ketones not the generation of glucose.  I was under the impression that the study showed how the body replaces glycogen with non low carb adapted individuals.

Jason

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119150] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/21/12 6:35 PM
"I thought we were talking about replenishing glycogen via gluconeogenesis from fat/ketones not the generation of glucose."
 
We were.  They body replenishes glycogen with glucose generated from protein, it does not replenish glycogen from fat or ketones. 
 
I think you have a misconception... Not that it really matters in practice, of course.  Your body knows what to do. :)

On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 9:08 PM, JasonH <jaso...@gmail.com> wrote:
Not sure how we got on a different page.  I thought we were talking about replenishing glycogen via gluconeogenesis from fat/ketones not the generation of glucose.  I was under the impression that the study showed how the body replaces glycogen with non low carb adapted individuals.

Jason

--
"Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..."  hosted by Barefoot Ted

Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe



--
_________________________________
Tucker
 

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119150] Re: Gluconeogenesis JasonH 8/21/12 6:41 PM
Perhaps you can correct my misunderstanding of this definition then perhaps i got the terms glycogen and glucose backwards again.  i am terrible with nomenclature .

Gluconeogenesis - meaning, "the creation of a new form of glucose" - is the process of making glucose (sugar) from its own breakdown products or from the breakdown products of lipids (fats) or proteins.

Jason

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119155] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/21/12 6:45 PM
Your definition is correct, in practice gluconeogenesis means mostly making glucose from protein.  Glycogen is a storage form of glucose: glucose linked into chains so that it doesn't misbehave and can be readily accessed.


Jason

--
"Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..."  hosted by Barefoot Ted

Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe



--
_________________________________
Tucker
 

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119128] Re: Gluconeogenesis Sean Butler 8/21/12 6:49 PM


On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 6:04 PM, Tuck <tuc...@gmail.com> wrote:
My takeaway from this is that it's not a bad idea to eat some carbs after you get glycogen-depleted. 

Or even before that happens, if you don't want to bonk.

Sounds familiar.  :-)

/Sean
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119159] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/21/12 6:52 PM
Depends how adapted you can get. ;)  If you're a sugar-burner, then indeed you'll need to take glucose.
 
I found that after getting into a pleasant back and forth on a blog with a woman who said you couldn't make much glucose from excess protein.  Just after I posted that link a diabetic woman who'd been VLC for years posted commenting on how effectively her liver could convert protein to glucose.  She had to take insulin after eating too much protein.

--
"Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..." hosted by Barefoot Ted
 
Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe



--
_________________________________
Tucker
 

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119159] Re: Gluconeogenesis JasonH 8/21/12 6:57 PM
Yeah i remember reading eating too much protein can prevent someone from reaching ketosis regardless of low carb.

I can see how it happens though. It took me a deliberate effort to replace my carb calories with fat calories and not more protein. The idea that fat is bad for you is ingrained fairly deeply. Conversations with others about this always goes that way.


Jason

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119165] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/21/12 7:03 PM
"Conversations with others about this always goes that way."
 
So do meals.  I love getting the looks of horror when I pass on the bread and put a few pats of butter on my steak. :)


--
"Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..."  hosted by Barefoot Ted

Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe



--
_________________________________
Tucker
 

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119165] Re: Gluconeogenesis Barefoot Bazza 8/22/12 3:53 AM
Indeed, I get the "but surely fat will make you fat". My reply is "well, I eat heaps of fat and have lost 12 kg in the last 2 months - strange that...". Now that you mention steak, my mouth waters at the thought of the 3 kg of freshly purchased grass fed Tasmanian porterhouse beef (adorned with thick strips of fatty goodness). I think I'll throw a slab in the pan for breakfast :)

BTW, thank you Tuck and others for the dietary inspiration. You, Wolff, Sisson and a You Tube Documentary "The men who made us fat" did it for me. Seems to be so easy once the insulin is switched off or at least squeezed down to a trickle. Interestingly, the smell of baking bread on my early morning run still excites me...but the thought of being bloated, tired and sweaty again is enough to let me smile through it.

BB
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119165] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/22/12 4:54 AM
For everyday activities gluconeogenesis will suffice. If you want to approach your racing potential you will need to strategically consume carbs.
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119186] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/22/12 5:02 AM
Wow, nice work!
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119167] Re: Gluconeogenesis Sean Butler 8/22/12 5:05 AM
When I talk about how much fat I eat (50-60%, I'd guess), I always get:  "oh, but you burn it all off."

:-/

/Sean
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119186] Re: Gluconeogenesis Barefoot Bazza 8/22/12 5:24 AM
Thanks - very happy.
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119195] Re: Gluconeogenesis ebank 8/22/12 5:31 AM

I have days that I suspect I am eating too much protein.  Then some that I worry I don't consume enough.  Dont want to eat my muscles...

Sent from Android

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119189] Re: Gluconeogenesis ebank 8/22/12 5:24 AM

Sean
I hear the same

Sent from Android

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119137] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/22/12 5:51 AM
Ketones are made from fat.  Glucose is made from protein.  Very little glucose can be made from fat or ketones...

I think you are reading too much into this... For a number of reasons, the worst possible way to make glucose is by converting protein into it. Here is how you want to get it:

"In humans the main gluconeogenic precursors are lactateglycerol (which is a part of the triacylglycerol molecule), alanine and glutamine. Altogether, they account for over 90% of the overall gluconeogenesis.[7] Other glucogenic amino acid as well as all citric acid cycle intermediates, the latter through conversion to oxaloacetate, can also function as substrates for gluconeogenesis.[8] In ruminants, propionate is the principal gluconeogenic substrate.[5][9]"

You want to push up that number from 90% into as close to 100% as you can. On the first 1.5 (or say 30..) days of adaptation the body will convert some protein into sugars (hence the 90%). In the scale of a lifestime it isn't that much of a timespan meaning that not that much damage can be done. 
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119137] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/22/12 6:27 AM
More detailed:


 Dr. Rosedale writes:

"It takes at least several weeks to fully adapt to extremely low sugar intake, such that the body can effectively burn fatty acids and ketones… Let's see what George Cahill has to say about glucose needs in a person well adapted to no carbohydrate intake… [Cahill] recently wrote a paper summarizing many of his long professional career's findings. They are the following:

"Total splanchnic glucose production [to fulfill body needs] in several weeks' starvation amounts to approximately 80 grams daily. About 10–11 grams/day come from glucose synthesis from ketone bodies,35–40 grams from recycled lactate and pyruvate,20 grams from fat-derived glycerol,and the remaining 15–20 grams from protein-derived amino acids,mainly alanine."

"… An approximation for clinical use is that if a diet contains over 100 grams carbohydrate, there is no ketosis (<0.1 mM). As one decreases dietary carbohydrate,ketogenesis begins...Glucose administration to fasting normals reverses starvation metabolism rapidly..." [Emphasis mine.]

Therefore,Dr. Rosedale summarizes:

"[U]nder a fully adapted,zero carbohydrate milieu,one only needs approximately 80 g (~320 cal) of glucose daily, the vast majority of which could be derived from fat and non protein sources. Only 15 to 20g need come from proteins,and likely less if one was actually eating fat that would allow for greater glycerol production and protein synthesis.
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119137] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/22/12 6:30 AM
Cathill's paper. Much more informative than the 1.5 day one posted here:

 http://www.med.upenn.edu/timm/documents/ReviewArticleTIMM2008-9Lazar-1.pdf

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119198] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/22/12 6:32 AM
" For a number of reasons, the worst possible way to make glucose is by converting protein into it. "
 
Huh?  All those amino acids are proteins.  Proteins are composed of amino acids, the body breaks protein down in digestion to it's component amino acids, which can then be used for various purposes, including as fuel.

On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 8:51 AM, Luis Manuel <lmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
Ketones are made from fat.  Glucose is made from protein.  Very little glucose can be made from fat or ketones...

I think you are reading too much into this... For a number of reasons, the worst possible way to make glucose is by converting protein into it. Here is how you want to get it:

"In humans the main gluconeogenic precursors are lactateglycerol (which is a part of the triacylglycerol molecule), alanine and glutamine. Altogether, they account for over 90% of the overall gluconeogenesis.[7] Other glucogenic amino acid as well as all citric acid cycle intermediates, the latter through conversion to oxaloacetate, can also function as substrates for gluconeogenesis.[8] In ruminants, propionate is the principal gluconeogenic substrate.[5][9]"

You want to push up that number from 90% into as close to 100% as you can. On the first 1.5 (or say 30..) days of adaptation the body will convert some protein into sugars (hence the 90%). In the scale of a lifestime it isn't that much of a timespan meaning that not that much damage can be done. 
 

On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 6:53 PM, JasonH <jaso...@gmail.com> wrote:
By 'from that' I meant of course gluconeogensis via the ketones..


Jason

--
"Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..." hosted by Barefoot Ted
 
Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe



--
_________________________________
Tucker
 

--
"Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..." hosted by Barefoot Ted
 
Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe



--
_________________________________
Tucker
 

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119204] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/22/12 6:36 AM

Did you read my other posts? Driving now but I have a few others.

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119204] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/22/12 6:42 AM
Here's the Veech paper he mentions.  Veech is the pioneer in this field.
 
If you really want to dig into this stuff here's the place to start digging.
 
On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 9:30 AM, Luis Manuel <lmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
Cathill's paper. Much more informative than the 1.5 day one posted here:

 http://www.med.upenn.edu/timm/documents/ReviewArticleTIMM2008-9Lazar-1.pdf

--
"Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..."  hosted by Barefoot Ted

Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe



--
_________________________________
Tucker
 

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119205] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/22/12 6:43 AM
I did.  "Least efficient" I would agree with, but "worst" implies that something bad will happen, which I do not think is the case.
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119205] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/22/12 6:56 AM
....but "worst" implies that something bad will happen, which I do not think is the case.

For those of us that exercise, something very bad happens, I first read it here (and confirmed it elsewhere):

 I’m not sure who is saying the body is using muscle protein for energy. We use mostly fat and sugar, with very small amounts of protein – so small that most physiologists ignore it during simple/basic evaluations. Larger amounts of protein will be used for energy when an athlete bonks, and this is a dangerous situation (certain amino acids convert to sugar). Unfortunately, many “theories” come from studies with unhealthy athletes (typically those who don’t burn much fat), or those who bonk – that information is then applied to the “normal” athlete. 
Dr. Phil 

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119212] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/22/12 7:02 AM
You're going to have to do better than that to convince me that it's bad... Quoting Phil saying it's dangerous doesn't really do the trick.
 
Has anyone ever died from bonking?  All the accounts that I've ever heard say you eat some food and take a nap and you're fine.  That's always been my experience...
 
(Had some rice for lunch yesterday and had a mild bonk on my run last night.  Not a nice feeling, but mild and I just ran through it.  Serves me right...)

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119212] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/22/12 7:08 AM
OK, here we go:
 
 
I doubt anyone other than a Navy Seal (or a poor starving African on a death march) would ever do that to themselves... It's certainly not something you're going to encounter on a single run, as Alan notes implicitly.
 
Eat right, make sure to listen to your body.  Losing 30 lbs of muscle mass should be a hint that you're doing something wrong. ;)

--
_________________________________
Tucker
 

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119212] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/22/12 7:11 AM
Has anyone ever died from bonking?  

Ok, I'l try, but later.... for now: bonking can cause serious permanent damage. One example is that  many athletes never return to their previous level, no different from boxers receiving a beating (and no one trowing the towel...).
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119212] Re: Gluconeogenesis John Kemp 8/22/12 7:12 AM
On Aug 22, 2012, at 10:02 AM, Tuck wrote:

> You're going to have to do better than that to convince me that it's bad... Quoting Phil saying it's dangerous doesn't really do the trick.

If it feels bad, then you should probably not do it on a regular basis. Isn't that listening to your body?

>  
> Has anyone ever died from bonking?  All the accounts that I've ever heard say you eat some food and take a nap and you're fine.  That's always been my experience...

No question that you can recover from bonks, or that rest is the cure. I think the question is whether bonking is bad - ie. bad for it to happen. And I think the answer is yes, no matter what actually happens - if it feels bad, it is bad. And if you do it repeatedly I think you'll burn out and get sick or injured.

>  
> (Had some rice for lunch yesterday and had a mild bonk on my run last night.  Not a nice feeling, but mild and I just ran through it.  Serves me right...)

Are you suggesting that eating rice for lunch caused you to bonk? How far did you run, and was this MAF-paced or faster?

JohnK
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119215] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/22/12 7:16 AM
Right off the top of my head I can cite a few athlete's who had epic bonks and continued successful careers...
 
 
Makes no mention of bonking causing permanent damage, except maybe psychological.  At any rate, I think we all agree that bonking is best avoided...

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119213] Re: Gluconeogenesis Doug Sims 8/22/12 7:16 AM
Tuck,
Your homework is to watch "Out of the Wild, Venezuela" on Netflix. You
want to see some serious loss of muscle mass? Look at those guys who
have eaten about 1000 calories in the last 18 days (total, not per
day).
It's crazy what they start doing and what kind of changes they go through.

They all survive though, and they were like that for almost an entire month.
It is a very interesting show from a scientific point of view.
Especially if you tune out all of the "blood sugar" talk from the
narrator. :)

There is also an Alaska one, but it is much tamer since they give them
a gun to hunt with. ;)
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119215] Re: Gluconeogenesis ebank 8/22/12 7:18 AM

Bottom line?  So, I should err on the side of too less protein than more?

Sent from Android

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119215] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/22/12 7:18 AM
"you suggesting that eating rice for lunch caused you to bonk? How far did you run, and was this MAF-paced or faster?"
 
I started getting mildly hypoglycemic at about mile 4 of a six mile run.  It's a feeling I'm intimately familiar with...  I was doing a MAF run.  Just kept going and the feeling went away.  Even before discovering paleo I would just ignore the hypoglycemic symptoms and let my body sort it out.
 
Haven't had that happen in a long time...

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119212] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/22/12 7:19 AM
Thanks you are doing the work for me... You would be surpriside at the number of athletes that take things to the point of no return.
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119221] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/22/12 7:20 AM
The ability of people to be idiotic doesn't surprise me any more... ;)
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119218] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/22/12 7:19 AM
I don't think you should worry about it, unless you're a fashion model trying to get seriously lean, you're better off eating more rather than less.  No real downside to a bit too much.
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119219] Re: Gluconeogenesis Sean Butler 8/22/12 7:22 AM

On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 10:18 AM, Tuck <tuc...@gmail.com> wrote:
I started getting mildly hypoglycemic at about mile 4 of a six mile run.  It's a feeling I'm intimately familiar with...  I was doing a MAF run. 


I thought the whole point of a MAF paced run was to burn fat, not sugar, so it's hard to imagine going hypoglycemic on such a short run.  The body should have enough glucose to keep the fat burning for a couple of hours.  You did not go in totally fasted if you had lunch and ran a few hours later...

(Of course assuming we are not talking about a ketogenic state...)

/Sean
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119223] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/22/12 7:24 AM
I had lunch at noon and ran at 7:30...  Maybe it was something else, but it sure felt hypoglycemic. 

--
"Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..." hosted by Barefoot Ted
 
Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe



--
_________________________________
Tucker
 

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119221] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/22/12 7:27 AM
The ability of people to be idiotic doesn't surprise me any more... ;)

Here, always enjoy (not really) watching this:

"Till I collapse":

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119215] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/22/12 7:34 AM
Right off the top of my head I can cite a few athlete's who had epic bonks and continued successful careers...

Sure, but maybe their bonk wasn't that bad (even if it looked/felt that way). Permanent damage might not come from hypoglycemia per se but from a really high body temperature after the person refuses to stop. Regardless of the cause, permanent damage is possible, not much different from a boxer receiving a heavy beating and no one throwing the towel. Here is an interesting article about this:

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119215] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/22/12 8:11 AM

Bottom line?  So, I should err on the side of too less protein than more?

In your case I would err on the side of more (not crazy overboard..). Jimmy Moore needs to be a lot more careful. That is of course MVHO.. 

Alan Couzens (in Tuck's linked article ^^^) talks about:

"4. Eat more protein. Elite ultra-endurance athletes experience a lot of muscular damage, both energetic and impact-related, therefore, high protein intakes are necessary, somewhere in the vicinity of 1.6-2.0 g/kg of bodyweight. "

A sedentary person (according to Rosedale) should shoot of .70-.75 g/kg. So somewhere in between (quite a range, sorry...) is probably the sweet spot. 

BTW, this is a really interesting article: "Protein: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly":

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119215] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/22/12 8:13 AM
Just to be clear, somewhere in between .70 and 1.6+.... not .7 and .75...
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119229] Re: Gluconeogenesis ebank 8/22/12 8:21 AM

Right.  And I know phinney and voleck's recommendation.  I would say I am on the higher side mostly.  Life on sunday after my crazy day I had a huge rib eye and spare ribs.  Yum....

Sent from Android

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119223] Re: Gluconeogenesis Denise Skidmore 8/22/12 8:27 AM
>> I started getting mildly hypoglycemic at about mile 4 of a six mile run.
>> It's a feeling I'm intimately familiar with...  I was doing a MAF run.
>
> I thought the whole point of a MAF paced run was to burn fat, not sugar, so
> it's hard to imagine going hypoglycemic on such a short run.  The body
> should have enough glucose to keep the fat burning for a couple of hours.
> You did not go in totally fasted if you had lunch and ran a few hours
> later...

Yes...but...

A spike in blood sugar can cause a spike in insulin, which can cause
blood sugar to dip below normal levels a few hours after the high carb
meal.  So even if he burns less sugar on a MAF run than a high
intensity run, he still burns some, and he may have started out at a
deficit.
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119229] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/22/12 8:30 AM
Yes, Phinney and Volek (in low carb performance) talk about between .6 to 1.0 grams for kilogram. I would definitely stay away from Alan Couzens recommendation. Especially after going through the presentation I linked to above....
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119227] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/22/12 7:40 AM
Heat stroke will surely kill you, but the folks they mention that went to the hospital all recovered in a few hours and were released.
 
Great post...

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119233] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/22/12 8:34 AM
Before you start weighing your food... Protein intake is pretty closely regulated by the body.  No matter where you look people eat between 10-15% of calories as protein.  Excess protein (within reason) is pretty easily dealt with...
 
Unless you're a body builder or a model, or otherwise trying to affect your metabolism, I'd just go by appetite and not worry about it.

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119213] Re: Gluconeogenesis Denise Skidmore 8/22/12 8:40 AM
Wow.

Even before they mentioned the studies relating to Chronic Fatigue
Syndrome, I was starting to see a lot of parallels with Fibromyalgia.
(CFS and Fibromyalgia are very similar, some doctors believe they are
the same thing, and if they are different, cross diagnosis is likely
common.)

Looks like research is starting down the same track:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1556707

On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 10:08 AM, Tuck <tuc...@gmail.com> wrote:
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119227] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/22/12 8:43 AM
About that post, can't help but wonder if there is a (central governor) correlation between 400 meters left and hitting the wall?.. They also mention Paula Newby Frazier (or was it in Couzens?, doesn't matter..). She trained with Mark Allen one year (1995) and she describes it as the biggest mistake of her career. In other words she wasn't ready to suck his wheel for his infamous 150 mile rides/bricks... this is what happened:

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119235] Re: Gluconeogenesis ebank 8/22/12 8:46 AM

I guess I'm doing it right so far as I remain in ketosis.   Just dont want to lose muscle and negatively affect performance.

Sent from Android

--
"Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..."  hosted by Barefoot Ted

Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119237] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/22/12 8:56 AM
Mind-boggling...
--
_________________________________
Tucker
 

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119235] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/22/12 8:57 AM

Denise. I think Couzens is right in the pathology (physiological interpretation) but not necessarily the solution (resolve a protein bonk by eating more protein..).

The Rosedale lecture I linked above is very informative, the presentation has lots of references.

On Aug 22, 2012 11:40 AM, "Denise Skidmore" <denises...@gmail.com> wrote:
--
"Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..."  hosted by Barefoot Ted

Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119137] Re: Gluconeogenesis JasonH 8/22/12 9:02 AM
Cool quotes, thanks.  I am currently at the comfortable point where I live, train and start races in ketosis.  I feel much better when the brain is "powered by ketones" (I feel like I need a bumper sticker or something with that on it :) ).

However during the race I don't feel bad helping out my fat burner replenish muscle glycogen with supplemental carbs.  I just have been avoiding pure sugars (gels, cookies, etc) since I am not yet sure how much sugar it would take during a race to turn off/impair my fat burner.

I wonder how long it takes to "unadapt" to a ketosis way of life.  Does it take a day of carb binging or a week or ... ?  I wonder if there have been any studies the other direction :)

Jason


On Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:27:40 AM UTC-6, Luis Manuel wrote:
More detailed:


 Dr. Rosedale writes:

"It takes at least several weeks to fully adapt to extremely low sugar intake, such that the body can effectively burn fatty acids and ketones… Let's see what George Cahill has to say about glucose needs in a person well adapted to no carbohydrate intake… [Cahill] recently wrote a paper summarizing many of his long professional career's findings. They are the following:

"Total splanchnic glucose production [to fulfill body needs] in several weeks' starvation amounts to approximately 80 grams daily. About 10–11 grams/day come from glucose synthesis from ketone bodies,35–40 grams from recycled lactate and pyruvate,20 grams from fat-derived glycerol,and the remaining 15–20 grams from protein-derived amino acids,mainly alanine."

"… An approximation for clinical use is that if a diet contains over 100 grams carbohydrate, there is no ketosis (<0.1 mM). As one decreases dietary carbohydrate,ketogenesis begins...Glucose administration to fasting normals reverses starvation metabolism rapidly..." [Emphasis mine.]

Therefore,Dr. Rosedale summarizes:

"[U]nder a fully adapted,zero carbohydrate milieu,one only needs approximately 80 g (~320 cal) of glucose daily, the vast majority of which could be derived from fat and non protein sources. Only 15 to 20g need come from proteins,and likely less if one was actually eating fat that would allow for greater glycerol production and protein synthesis.
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119237] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/22/12 9:03 AM

One more thing. I am pretty sure that ketoacidosis happens in conjunction with a heavy bonk, like the Kayako (Japanese girl) one shown above. A bonk itself is probably harmless, obsessively pushing through it isn't...

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119223] Re: Gluconeogenesis gordo 8/22/12 9:07 AM
On Wednesday, August 22, 2012 8:24:44 AM UTC-6, Tuck wrote:
I had lunch at noon and ran at 7:30...  Maybe it was something else, but it sure felt hypoglycemic.

It's hard to see how. Your blood sugar and insulin levels should peak an hour or so after your meal. They should be back to normal two hours after. Seven hours plus is a bit long for any effect to last. Unless, of course, your metabolism is completely FUBARed. ;)

Gordo
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119241] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/22/12 9:14 AM
" I am pretty sure that ketoacidosis happens in conjunction with a heavy bonk"
 
That I really doubt.  Ketoacidosis happens when the body floods the blood with ketones in response to the blood being flooded with glucose.  It's an attempt to stave off glucose toxicity by providing large amounts of the alternative fuel source, and as far as I know, only occurs in diabetics, primarily Type 1 diabetics. 
 
I can't see how low blood sugar would trigger that same reaction... unless you're an alcoholic:
 
_________________________________
Tucker
 

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119241] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/22/12 9:15 AM

It takes no time to unadapt..

--
"Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..." hosted by Barefoot Ted
 
Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119241] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/22/12 9:18 AM

Well, depending on what you mean by unadapt.. leaving ketosis, no time. Endurance adaptations and screwing up metabolism probably much longer...

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119241] Re: Gluconeogenesis JasonH 8/22/12 9:22 AM
I am thinking brain wise.  It took a few weeks for the 'head' to normalize going VLC.  Now I feel the best I ever have and the lightest I have ever been as an adult.  Logically it would seem as long as you consume enough carbs to remove the "need" to generate ketones to power everything the more the brain would start to run on carbs ?

From what I have read it takes a while for the brain to switch power sources and it is claimed the brain prefers the healthier ketones.  So perhaps it is just an issue of consuming excess carbs for long enough that the brain is forced to use carbs since the body it not producing ketones.

Totally just thinking out loud.  I have had a couple of "cheat" days where I was pretty sure I over did the carbs (> 100g) and the day after is when I checked the ketostix and it showed I was still in ketosis (it seemed fainter but not sure).

Oh well all fun to find these things out.

Jason
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119247] Re: Gluconeogenesis ebank 8/22/12 9:34 AM

Jason
I wonder Similar thing.  I want to stay in ketosis.  From what I remember from Attia once you go out it take a few days to get back in.
Sunday was my experiment to see the least amount of carbs I can consume and still perform.  
I am wondering what I will have to consume in my next marathon which will be shorter in duration than sunday but more intense for the whole time.  
Will  two Ucan do?  will I need three?  Will three end up taking me out of ketosis?
Interesting stuff....

Sent from Android

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119247] Re: Gluconeogenesis JasonH 8/22/12 9:41 AM
I suspect and as other have said it is may be very difficult to spike your blood sugar too much you are actually in a race because the carbs get sucked up so quickly by the cells (muscle and otherwise).  I am thinking this may be another case where 'listening to body' will tell me what is ok to eat on my ultras.  If it sounds good maybe its ok to eat.  From my previous mode I just know forcing down so many gel packets/hour just does not work from an energy or happy stomach point of view.

For me the critical concept is to go into the race already 'keto-adapted' since I am already off the carb roller coaster.  It does not give me super powers :) but it makes the race a lot more comfortable on many levels (reduced muscle fatigue, solid stomach, stable "brain",etc)

Jason

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119249] Re: Gluconeogenesis ebank 8/22/12 9:47 AM
I agree with most of what you said, however, I do believe that the gels, sports drinks, etc do spike insulin even in a race and therefore, shut down fat burning.  That may not be all bad, but if I can fuel myself in a marathon mostly on fats...... I'm in!




--
"Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..." hosted by Barefoot Ted
 
Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe



--
Eliot Bank
elio...@gmail.com
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119249] Re: Gluconeogenesis JasonH 8/22/12 9:59 AM
I agree which is why I avoid gels, etc.  I have not tried going 'zero' carb during the actual race.  I think it is possible if I stay within MAF.  The supplemental carbs may be necessary for those times where I exceed the capabilities of my fat burner otherwise I have to so slow down to wait for the fat burner to catch up.

If I ran a marathon or less I doubt I would bother eating anything.  "Eating by feel" may work as "Running by feel" :)

Jason
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119251] Re: Gluconeogenesis ebank 8/22/12 10:02 AM
+1.  I think I may do one Ucan about half way or a bit later.  Just in case.... (cannot get that mentality out of my head yet.  i would have to be willing to experiment with a race or do a training run for 3 hours at marathon pace)
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119249] Re: Gluconeogenesis gordo 8/22/12 10:08 AM
On Wednesday, August 22, 2012 10:47:10 AM UTC-6, ebank wrote:
I agree with most of what you said, however, I do believe that the gels, sports drinks, etc do spike insulin even in a race and therefore, shut down fat burning.  

There's probably a dose/time relationship. Too much too fast and your body will need to clear the excess by producing insulin. A little bit over time, and your muscles and liver probably gobble it all up.

Gordo
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119249] Re: Gluconeogenesis JasonH 8/22/12 10:13 AM
Yep.  That balance is what I am trying to nail down.  Learning what the feedback is between not enough and too much is something I am still working on thusly maybe the "eat by feel" might work since previous ketosis seems to 'calibrate' what "by feel" means.

Jason

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119253] Re: Gluconeogenesis Sean Butler 8/22/12 10:58 AM
This is one of the reasons I had no carbs before or during the 1st two hours of my run Saturday... Then I started on the carbs, at the point (just before- hopefully) of being depleted!  It worked well in terms of how I felt all day but I of course have no idea what substrate I was burning once I started eating carbs.  The goal was to use the carbs to keep the fat burning going, but without actual measurements, who knows.  The fact that I went with nearly 100 calories less per hour than normal and still felt good would seem to indicate it was working, but I have no proof beyond that.

/Sean 
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119241] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/22/12 11:02 AM
That I really doubt.  Ketoacidosis happens when the body floods the blood with ketones in response to the blood being flooded with glucose.  It's an attempt to stave off glucose toxicity by providing large amounts of the alternative fuel source, and as far as I know, only occurs in diabetics, primarily Type 1 diabetics. 

Ketoacidosis means excess ketones, over the 5 mM mark Phinney and Volek define.  The reason type 1 (and late stage 2) diabetics suffer from it is because of an absense of insulin which normally gets rid of the excess. B-OHb ...

It is the same reason long runs (or bike rides..) induces ketosis, less blood sugar means less insulin which combined with more fat as fuel produces more ketones.

 
I can't see how low blood sugar would trigger that same reaction... unless you're an alcoholic:

Low blood sugar triggers ketone formation as explained above. BTW, a drunk, a type 1 (or 3..) diabetic in ketoacidosis and a bonking athlete are all remarkably similar. In fact the first glucose meters were "intended for emergency staff at hospitals to distinguish unconscious diabetics from unconscious drunks."

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119254] Re: Gluconeogenesis ebank 8/22/12 11:02 AM
Sean - I agree that the 100 calories less and your feeling good may be a sign, however, was this run the same intensity as the previous runs that you used 100 calories more/hour?

--
"Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..." hosted by Barefoot Ted
 
Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe



--
Eliot Bank
elio...@gmail.com
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119257] Re: Gluconeogenesis Sean Butler 8/22/12 11:04 AM
On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 2:02 PM, Eliot Bank <elio...@gmail.com> wrote:
Sean - I agree that the 100 calories less and your feeling good may be a sign, however, was this run the same intensity as the previous runs that you used 100 calories more/hour?

It was not a race so by nature it would be a little less intense, but it was not an easy run by any means.

I will continue to experiment...

/Sean
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119258] Re: Gluconeogenesis ebank 8/22/12 11:06 AM
me too..  
:)


/Sean

--
"Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..." hosted by Barefoot Ted
 
Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe



--
Eliot Bank
elio...@gmail.com
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119257] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/22/12 11:14 AM
Yes, but you're missing the point: ketoacidosis doesn't happen in healthy people...
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119257] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/22/12 11:19 AM
Yes, but you're missing the point: ketoacidosis doesn't happen in healthy people...

I am not missing the point, bonking is not healthy, pushing through it much less. All I am saying is that among other things the ketone levels of a person pushing through a bonk are likely through the roof...
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119264] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/22/12 11:25 AM
"All I am saying is that among other things the ketone levels of a person pushing through a bonk are likely through the roof..."
 
I doubt that, actually.  If they were able to operate on a non-glucose fuel they wouldn't bonk.

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119264] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/22/12 11:38 AM
I doubt that, actually.  If they were able to operate on a non-glucose fuel they wouldn't bonk.

That is wrong. A type 1 diabetic in a state of ketoacidosis  is operating on fat and nothing else, that is the reason ketones make their blood extremely acidic and why they need to be hospitalized. A bonk is not much different except that in a non-diabetic it can be reversed by consuming sugar and resting, provided they don't start a death match with the central governor...
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119273] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/22/12 11:46 AM
That's not correct, Luis.  A type 1 diabetic in ketoacidosis has super-high blood sugar.  A person who bonks has low blood sugar.  Two totally different phenomena.
 
"In diabetic patients, ketoacidosis is usually accompanied by insulin deficiency, hyperglycemia, and dehydration. Particularly in type 1 diabetics the lack of insulin in the bloodstream prevents glucose absorption and can cause unchecked ketone body production (through fatty acid metabolism) potentially leading to dangerous glucose and ketone levels in the blood. Hyperglycemia results in glucose overloading the kidneys and spilling into the urine (transport maximum for glucose is exceeded)."
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119273] Re: Gluconeogenesis JasonH 8/22/12 11:57 AM
That is interesting.  It is odd that you can have a high blood sugar and super ketone production.  I guess that is why it is a "disease".

Convincing my parents that I was not going to put myself into ketoacidosis by going low carb was a challenge (mom is an ex-nurse).

Jason

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119280] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/22/12 12:00 PM
That's why I posted: " Ketoacidosis happens when the body floods the blood with ketones in response to the blood being flooded with glucose.  It's an attempt to stave off glucose toxicity by providing large amounts of the alternative fuel source, and as far as I know, only occurs in diabetics, primarily Type 1 diabetics."
 
If all the tissues become insulin resistant because there's too much glucose in the system, they need something else to run on.  Of course in the type 1 diabetic, there's no insulin to clear the glucose, so glucose toxicity is not avoided, and you get into a death spiral (literally) where the body tries to out-compete glucose with ketones, leaving toxic levels of both in the blood.


--
"Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..." hosted by Barefoot Ted
 
Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe



--
_________________________________
Tucker
 

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119280] Re: Gluconeogenesis ebank 8/22/12 12:04 PM

The same way explaining to people that I won't become morbidly obese from eating all this day is a challenging.

Sent from Android

--
"Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..." hosted by Barefoot Ted
 
Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119273] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/22/12 12:09 PM
That's not correct, Luis.  A type 1 diabetic in ketoacidosis has super-high blood sugar.  A person who bonks has low blood sugar.  Two totally different phenomena.

I know that, Tuck. But it is not two totally different phenomena. The reason diabetics produce ketones has nothing to do with sugar and everything to do with zero or very low levels of insulin and high levels of fatty acid metabolism. In fact that is also the reason people on VLC or with type 1 (or advanced type 2) diabetes produce ketones, but those with type 2 don't (they have plenty of insulin, there body however is not sensitive to that..).  This is not a paradox 

You can have extremely low insulin levels by not producing it or by depleting all your glycogen. Too much of a good thing can kill you.
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119283] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/22/12 12:15 PM
"The reason diabetics produce ketones has nothing to do with sugar and everything to do with zero or very low levels of insulin and high levels of fatty acid metabolism."
 
It's not a paradox, indeed, but you're conflating two distinct phenomena that have similar characteristics. 
 
If you want to make this argument, you'd be better off doing it with alcoholic ketoacidosis, which is accompanied by low blood glucose, not high.
 
"In alcoholic ketoacidosis, alcohol causes dehydration and blocks the first step of gluconeogenesis. The body is unable to synthesize enough glucose to meet its needs, thus creating an energy crisis resulting in fatty acid metabolism, and ketone body formation."
 
That sounds similar to bonking to me...

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119280] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/22/12 12:21 PM

Tuck, I am sorry if I sound harsh but that is just backwards. The body produces ketones in response to fatty acid metabolism such as what happens when there is zero or close insulin. Ketones are NEVER produced to combat glucose toxicity.

Do you have Phinney and Volek low carb living book nearby? It is in there.

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119283] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/22/12 12:29 PM

I am saying it is not a paradox. Very low or zero  insulin means fatty acid metabolism which means ketones get produced. All scenarios discussed here share that characteristics. In fact, it has a lot to do with why type 2 diabetics are usually fat...

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119284] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/22/12 3:16 PM
Well, thanks Luis for ruining my last hour... ;) 
 
I think my theory about ketones being protective against glucose in diabetic ketoacidosis might have some validity, (turns out there are two related conditions, DKA and HHS (link 1), the difference between the two being that HHS does not feature high ketone levels, typically presents with the brain in a pretty bad state, and has a much higher fatality rate), but it's almost besides the point, because you're not going to arrive at either condition through exercise. 
 
You're correct that low insulin levels usually causes an increase in ketosis, but not always...  That said, after reading all this stuff, I've come to the conlusion that most of what's in the medical textbooks is crap, and explains why people are terrified of ketosis (see the Merck link (2) below).
 
Oh and link 3 is a good intro.
 
 
 
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119284] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/22/12 4:00 PM
Well, thanks Luis for ruining my last hour... ;) 

Sorry.. if I was the bill all the hours you've done that to me I'd be rich by now.. :-)
Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/22/12 6:30 PM
LOL.  Fair point. ;) you can buy me a drink when we finally get to meet.
>> <lmc...@gmail.com<javascript:>
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> Tuck, I am sorry if I sound harsh but that is just backwards. The body
>>> produces ketones in response to fatty acid metabolism such as what
>>> happens
>>> when there is zero or close insulin. Ketones are NEVER produced to combat
>>>
>>> glucose toxicity.
>>>
>>> Do you have Phinney and Volek low carb living book nearby? It is in
>>> there.
>>> On Aug 22, 2012 3:01 PM, "Tuck" <tuc...@gmail.com <javascript:>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> That's why I posted: " Ketoacidosis happens when the body floods the
>>>> blood with ketones in response to the blood being flooded with glucose.
>>>>
>>>> It's an attempt to stave off glucose toxicity by providing large amounts
>>>> of
>>>> the alternative fuel source, and as far as I know, only occurs in
>>>> diabetics, primarily Type 1 diabetics."
>>>>
>>>> If all the tissues become insulin resistant because there's too much
>>>> glucose in the system, they need something else to run on.  Of course in
>>>>
>>>> the type 1 diabetic, there's no insulin to clear the glucose, so glucose
>>>>
>>>> toxicity is not avoided, and you get into a death spiral (literally)
>>>> where
>>>> the body tries to out-compete glucose with ketones, leaving toxic levels
>>>> of
>>>> both in the blood.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 2:57 PM, JasonH <jaso...@gmail.com
>>>> <javascript:>
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119280] Re: Gluconeogenesis JasonH 8/22/12 8:03 PM
Interesting note I just came across reading a book on ketogenic diets.  It said insulin levels cannot go up during exercise when glucose is consumed due to the inhibitory effect adrenaline has on insulin secretion.   Seems to support the race"high"(glucose) idea.

It also has a section on how to strategically consume carbs around exercise in order to minimize the impact on ketosis.


Jason

Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/22/12 8:56 PM
Challenge. Tomorrow. ;)
Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/23/12 6:05 AM
LOL.  Fair point. ;) you can buy me a drink when we finally get to meet.

You got it. 

BTW, it's been a while and I'm curious.. have bar(tenders) "evolved" into this?
 
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119280] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/23/12 6:28 AM
Yes. Adrenaline is one of the triggers, if a lion is chasing me and insulin gets released I will taste even sweeter...

But in any case, even at MAF I burn approximately 9 calories per minute, out of which 2-3 are from carbs (again per minute). Compare that with sitting around which burns close to 0 carb calories.. A 2 hour run at MAF we are talking about 120-180 calories from carbs. It is no surprise all of us playing with VLC can go without carbs for those runs...

Now, let's push things up a notch.. Say a marathon. If I do the math (according to the two I've run average 3:38) I would burn around 2550 total calories out of which around 1500 are from carbs. There is no way I could produce that many in 3.5 hours through glycogen.

The body is not stupid, it needs sugar within a certain range to survive, if it gets too low during a marathon insulin gets severely restricted (if it gets released I die...) and I slow to a crawl and start wobbling like a drunk as  ketones go through the roof........
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119280] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/23/12 6:30 AM
Stupid spell checker:

"There is no way I could produce that many in 3.5 hours through gluconeogenesis." 
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119284] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/23/12 7:05 AM
Back to this one. Already read links 2 and 3 and am in the process of finishing 1:
 
I think my theory about ketones being protective against glucose in diabetic ketoacidosis might have some validity, (turns out there are two related conditions, DKA and HHS (link 1)

Sorry but I don't see it, having an excess of both makes a bad situation (low blood PH) even worse.... the body has no choice but to pump ketones as the person needs to burn something (and without insulin fatty acids are the only choice...) or dies. Ketones in this case still kills or maims (NEVER protects at those levels) while the only other alternative is just worse.
 
, the difference between the two being that HHS does not feature high ketone levels, typically presents with the brain in a pretty bad state, and has a much higher fatality rate), but it's almost besides the point, because you're not going to arrive at either condition through exercise. 

You obviously can't have both HHS and DKA together during exercise. In the case of extreme exercise and bonking ketones are the ones that would possibly be extremely elevated, making the blood acidic. It is quite possible that a low PH is the least of your worries during a bonk, I don't know..
 
 
You're correct that low insulin levels usually causes an increase in ketosis, but not always... 

Ketosis goes accompanied by low insulin levels (insulin gets rid of ketones..) AND fatty acid metabolism. If your fatty acid metabolism is not working ketosis would not exist. Hopefully at that stage you are then burning sugar or you are about to die or already there.
 
That said, after reading all this stuff, I've come to the conlusion that most of what's in the medical textbooks is crap, and explains why people are terrified of ketosis (see the Merck link (2) below).

I didn't see anything wrong  with the Merck link, ketoacidosis is scary stuff (especially for diabetics) and should be avoided at all costs. Most of what I've read about this topic, even in medical literature is on the money, that doctors DON'T understand it is shameful and scary. The phenomenon is not that complex (ALL scenarios are explained by it..) but reducing it to black and white is just atrocious.
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119333] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/23/12 7:25 AM
" In the case of extreme exercise and bonking ketones are the ones that would possibly be extremely elevated, making the blood acidic."
 
I just don't think that there's any evidence that that actually happens to people. 
 
As far as the Merck link goes:

"Insulin deficiency causes the body to metabolize triglycerides and muscle instead of glucose for energy."

Some muscle, maybe at the late stages...  Muscle is the primary energy store in the body... Fat is secondary.  Amino acids from the muscle are used to create glucose in the liver, they're not using muscle "instead" of glucose.

"Glucagon also stimulates mitochondrial conversion of FFAs into ketones."

FFAs are not converted into ketones in the mitochondria, but in the liver.

"Insulin normally blocks ketogenesis by inhibiting the transport of FFA derivatives into the mitochondrial matrix, but ketogenesis proceeds in the absence of insulin."

This is not true.  Ketogenesis proceeds at low NORMAL levels of insulin, this is NOT pathological.  Only when it gets out of control does it become pathological.  This sentence explains why doctors are afraid of ketogenesis.

"The major ketoacids produced, acetoacetic acid and β-hydroxybutyric acid, are strong organic acids that create metabolic acidosis."

There are lots of acids floating around in body.  These, like all the rest, only become problematic when they're in excess.

I think the link to the diabetes journal is a far more useful overview...
 
You can understand why people are terrified of ketosis... Peter Attia likens ketosis to a fireplace and ketoacidosis to a house on fire.  Merck makes no such distinction...
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119333] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/23/12 7:39 AM
I just don't think that there's any evidence that that actually happens to people. 

When was the last time they draw blood and checked for ketones in a bonking athlete? I am willing to bet.

Just look at Attia's self experiment, the largest ketone readings (still well below ketoacidosis but still high even for nutritional ketosis standards as defined by Phinney) were on his easy and long bike ride, 4.4 from memory. Now push that long bike ride until he  bonks... his sugar is very low at this stage, insulin gets suppressed or he dies.. he keeps on pushing, the only thing that could possibly keep him alive at this point is super high fatty acid metabolism which HAVE TO go accompanied by very high ketone levels.

I might not be making myself clear... I am convinced that fat burning (along with its inseparable ketone friends) is the preferred state, but TOO MUCH of a good (or preferred) thing can also kill you.

Not to confuse (further, lol) I will deal  with the Merck part in a separate post.
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119341] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/23/12 7:53 AM
But the whole point is that if you're fat adapted you don't bonk.  That's why the unofficial title of the V&P book is "How not to avoid the bonk".

--
"Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..." hosted by Barefoot Ted
 
Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe



--
_________________________________
Tucker
 

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119333] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/23/12 8:02 AM
  
As far as the Merck link goes:

"Insulin deficiency causes the body to metabolize triglycerides and muscle instead of glucose for energy."

 

 

Some muscle, maybe at the late stages...  Muscle is the primary energy store in the body... Fat is secondary.  Amino acids from the muscle are used to create glucose in the liver, they're not using muscle "instead" of glucose.


They are talking about ketoacidosis on a diabetic, NOT normal metabolism, they are already on the late stages. Also, under normal metabolism fat is the primary energy store in the body.

 

"Glucagon also stimulates mitochondrial conversion of FFAs into ketones."

FFAs are not converted into ketones in the mitochondria, but in the liver.

So?
 

"Insulin normally blocks ketogenesis by inhibiting the transport of FFA derivatives into the mitochondrial matrix, but ketogenesis proceeds in the absence of insulin."

This is not true.  Ketogenesis proceeds at low NORMAL levels of insulin, this is NOT pathological.  Only when it gets out of control does it become pathological.  This sentence explains why doctors are afraid of ketogenesis.

Again, you are mixing thing up. They are talking about ketoacidosis in a type 1 diabetic, NOT "nutritional ketosis" (as defined by Phinney) on any of us. That statement is true in that context.

 

"The major ketoacids produced, acetoacetic acid and β-hydroxybutyric acid, are strong organic acids that create metabolic acidosis."

There are lots of acids floating around in body.  These, like all the rest, only become problematic when they're in excess.

I think the link to the diabetes journal is a far more useful overview...

There might be lots of acids floating around the body, but that statement is true and again: in the case of a type 1 diabetic it is true. The problem is NOT the literature BUT that most doctors don't understand the mechanism.

I agree that the diabetes journal has a more comprehensive ad better overview.
 
 
You can understand why people are terrified of ketosis... Peter Attia likens ketosis to a fireplace and ketoacidosis to a house on fire.  Merck makes no such distinction...

Agree, but why should they?
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119345] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/23/12 8:08 AM
"So?"
 
Call, me crazy, but I'd like my doctor to actually be taught correct information.
 
"Again, you are mixing thing up. They are talking about ketoacidosis in a type 1 diabetic, NOT "nutritional ketosis" (as defined by Phinney) on any of us. That statement is true in that context."
 
I'm not.  Read carefully. Luis.  This statement is false: "Insulin normally blocks ketogenesis by inhibiting the transport of FFA derivatives into the mitochondrial matrix..."
 
They're talking about what "normally" happens here, not in ketoacidosis.  Ketosis is a normal process in the body... It's not "blocked" by normal insulin levels...  They're trying to distinguish ketoacidosis from normal metabolism, which, in their universe, is 100% glucose, as fat constantly increases, since it's never burned.

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119341] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/23/12 8:09 AM
But the whole point is that if you're fat adapted you don't bonk.  That's why the unofficial title of the V&P book is "How not to avoid the bonk".

I completely agree with that. All I am saying is that in terms of "not bonking" you want to become a better fat burner for two things:

1- doh, burn fat
2- spare glycogen

And that the second is as important as the first. There is an upper limit for the first one, paradoxically the best fat burners on earth (lowest RQ) are diabetics on a ketoacidosis crisis. A bonking athlete's physiology (while bonking) is remarkably similar to that (but less serious in that it can be contained more easily).
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119347] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/23/12 8:13 AM
" A bonking athlete's physiology (while bonking) is remarkably similar to that..."
 
That's what I don't get, Luis.  Why do you think so?  What are the similarities?

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119347] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/23/12 8:16 AM
Oh goody, now we can worry about this:
 
--
_________________________________
Tucker
 

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119348] Re: Gluconeogenesis ebank 8/23/12 8:18 AM
Mighty powerful Mitochondria?Eliot Bank
elio...@gmail.com
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119345] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/23/12 8:19 AM
This statement is false: "Insulin normally blocks ketogenesis by inhibiting the transport of FFA derivatives into the mitochondrial matrix..."
 
They're talking about what "normally" happens here, not in ketoacidosis.  Ketosis is a normal process in the body... It's not "blocked" by normal insulin levels...  They're trying to distinguish ketoacidosis from normal metabolism, which, in their universe, is 100% glucose, as fat constantly increases, since it's never burned.

But that is still true. Insulin prevents ketoacidosis in normal metabolism, normal defined by what we are doing... In the mainstream definition of normal (high carb diet) even more. 
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119351] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/23/12 8:25 AM
"Insulin prevents ketoacidosis in normal metabolism, normal defined by what we are doing..."
 
They didn't say that it prevents ketoacidosis, they said that it prevents ketogenesis.
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119351] Re: Gluconeogenesis ebank 8/23/12 8:31 AM
"They didn't say that it prevents ketoacidosis, they said that it prevents ketogenesis. "

Wouldn't preventing ketogenesis prevent ketoacidosis?
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119352] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/23/12 8:39 AM
It would. 
 
Insulin doesn't prevent ketogenesis, it is one part of the regulation of energy production.  Ketogenesis takes place with a baseline of insulin in the blood stream.

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119347] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/23/12 8:43 AM
That's what I don't get, Luis.  Why do you think so?  What are the similarities?

Again, the only thing that is keeping a bonking athlete alive is extremely high fatty acid metabolism combined with extremely low insulin levels. Remember that glycogenolysis is not an option either as not much glycogen is available. At that moment the athlete's body needs to push ketones through the roof to keep the FFA metabolism going and survive the crisis.

This is the exact same thing that happens in a diabetic during a ketoacidosis crisis. The exeption you cite is that he has  high glucose levels in the blood, but that is irrelevant as glucose has to first be converted in glycogen which is impossible as there is no insulin available for that and only then glucagon jumps in (glycognolysis phase...). 

The similarities are:

1- Very low insulin concentration (for different reasons but the end result is exactly the same)
2- Very high fatty acid metabolism (again for different reasons)
3- No glycogenolysis (you get the picture..)
4- Very high ketone levels in response to the above

It is no wonder it is almost impossible to differentiate (if you run into one..) between a diabetic (or alcoholic) under a ketoacidosis crisis or a bonking athlete......
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119355] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/23/12 8:45 AM
And how do you know that athletes who bonk have high fatty acid metabolism and high ketones?
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119352] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/23/12 8:48 AM
It would. 
 
Insulin doesn't prevent ketogenesis, it is one part of the regulation of energy production.  Ketogenesis takes place with a baseline of insulin in the blood stream.


Tuck, sorry but Insulin prevents ketones from generating (ketogenesis) first by blocking fatty acid metabolism (this is the state the VAST MAJORITY of people, especially diabetics or prediabetics live nowadays). And second by getting rid of the excess once they are made (this is the reason we stay in the healthy range but type 1 diabetics go over the top).

It is NOT an either or situation.
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119357] Re: Gluconeogenesis Sean Butler 8/23/12 8:57 AM

This thread seems so much longer than the 115+ posts it already is...  ;-)

/Seam
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119355] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/23/12 9:04 AM
And how do you know that athletes who bonk have high fatty acid metabolism and high ketones?

The body needs some fuel or you die, under hypoglycemia (especially severe) it has to turn to fatty acid metabolism:

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119357] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/23/12 9:15 AM
Luis, think this through.  My insulin level is greater than zero.  I'm in ketosis (producing ketones for fuel).
 
How is that possible?

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119360] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/23/12 9:16 AM
You're guessing now.  That page doesn't even mention ketones...
 
The problem with your assumption is that if ketones went through the roof, you wouldn't be bonking...

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119357] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/23/12 9:20 AM
I have. Insulin levels help regulate ketone levels by two mechanisms:

1- High insulin prevents fat burning meaning no ketones get produced
2- Lower insulin levels permit fat burning. Once they start to get too high (for whatever reason), the body releases some more insulin which also gets rid of them.
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119364] Re: Gluconeogenesis Deacon Patrick 8/23/12 9:27 AM
Luis, could you eliminate the pronouns in the 2nd sentence of #2 for those of us playing along at home?

With abandon,
Patrick

It's all good (but is it the Best Good?).
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119364] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/23/12 9:29 AM
That I agree with... ;)
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119364] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/23/12 9:31 AM
Sorry, is this better:

"Once ketones start to get too high (for whatever reason), the body releases some more insulin to get rid of the excess ketones." 
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119367] Re: Gluconeogenesis Deacon Patrick 8/23/12 9:49 AM
Thanks, Luis!


With abandon,
Patrick

It's all good (but is it the Best Good?).
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119280] Re: Gluconeogenesis Doug Sims 8/23/12 10:30 AM
I got the same response when i mentioned "ketosis" to my dad.  His
response was something similar to "ketosis will kill you!!!" and then
proceeded to ignore my response about the difference between ketosis
and ketoacidosis.

He's not a nurse or a doctor, he's a type 2 diabetic though.
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119280] Re: Gluconeogenesis JasonH 8/23/12 10:50 AM
Yeah.  The keto people metion ketoacidosis got confused with ketosis and scared everyone off.  In general it seems the only time one has to worry about ketoacidosis are Type 1 diabetics and 'alcoholics' (drinking continuously instead of eating).  I think in both cases the person has high ketones and high blood sugar simultaneously.  The 'double safeguards' normally in place to stop runaway ketone production are broken.

Jason
 
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119367] Re: Gluconeogenesis JZ 8/24/12 8:39 PM
"Once ketones start to get too high (for whatever reason), the body releases some more insulin to get rid of the excess ketones."

So, if, for some reason, people who are bonking are making a lot of ketones, why can't they just release some insulin to bring down the level of ketones?Joe
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119367] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/25/12 7:19 AM
So, if, for some reason, people who are bonking are making a lot of ketones, why can't they just release some insulin to bring down the level of ketones?

Because they are very hypoglycemic at that point. Releasing insulin would mean taking glucose levels even lower which would in turn mean seizures, coma or death. The brain is better of taking whatever is available for itself and letting you stumble and fall like a drunk....
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119341] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/25/12 7:26 AM
If you're feeling that crappy when you're bonking, you don't have high
ketone levels anyway...

On 8/25/12, Luis Manuel <lmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> So, if, for some reason, people who are bonking are making a lot of
>> ketones, why can't they just release some insulin to bring down the level
>>
>> of ketones?
>>
>
> Because they are very hypoglycemic at that point. Releasing insulin would
> mean taking glucose levels even lower which would in turn mean seizures,
> coma or death. The brain is better of taking whatever is available for
> itself and letting you stumble and fall like a drunk....
>
>
>
>> On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 12:31 PM, Luis Manuel
>> <lmc...@gmail.com<javascript:>
>>>>>>>>  *"They didn't say that it prevents ketoacidosis, they said that it
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> prevents ketogenesis. *"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/**group******
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> **/huaraches/subscribe<http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________**********___
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tucker
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..." hosted by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Barefoot Ted
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Membership Options:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/**group*******
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> */huaraches/subscribe<http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..." hosted by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Barefoot Ted
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Membership Options:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/**group********
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /huaraches/subscribe<http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________**********___
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tucker
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..." hosted by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Barefoot Ted
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/**group******
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /huaraches/subscribe<http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________********___
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tucker
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  --
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..." hosted by
>>>>>>>>>>>> Barefoot Ted
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/**group****
>>>>>>>>>>>> /huaraches/subscribe<http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________******___
>>>>>>>>>>> Tucker
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  --
>>>>>>>>>> "Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..." hosted by
>>>>>>>>>> Barefoot Ted
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/**group**
>>>>>>>>>> /huaraches/subscribe<http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****___
>>>>>>>>> Tucker
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  --
>>>>>>>>> "Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..." hosted by
>>>>>>>>> Barefoot Ted
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/**group**
>>>>>>>>> /huaraches/subscribe<http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Eliot Bank
>>>>>>>> elio...@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> "Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..." hosted by Barefoot
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ted
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/**group**
>>>>>>>> /huaraches/subscribe<http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> ______________________________****___
>>>>>>> Tucker
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  --
>>>>>> "Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..." hosted by Barefoot
>>>>>> Ted
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/**
>>>>>> group/huaraches/subscribe<http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> ______________________________**___
>>>>> Tucker
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  --
>>>> "Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..." hosted by Barefoot
>>>> Ted
>>>>
>>>> Membership Options:
>>>> http://groups.google.com/**group/huaraches/subscribe<http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe>
>>>>
>>>>  --
>>> "Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..." hosted by Barefoot Ted
>>>
>>> Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Joe
>>
>
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119341] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/25/12 7:35 AM
If you're feeling that crappy when you're bonking, you don't have high
ketone levels anyway...

Care to provide an explanation or evidence? From my understanding exercise induced hypoglicemia goes accompanied by high FFA metabolism which goes accompanied by higher ketone levels. There is no way around that. If I am wrong I promise I would be the first to admit it, there is no shame in that.
 
&
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119341] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/25/12 7:46 AM
This explains what I am talking about, a bonk is no different than a case of ketotic hypoglicemia, it always feel crappy...:

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119341] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/25/12 8:08 AM
I've been asking you for evidence for a couple days now... You've got
a theory that exercise-induced hypoglycemia is accompanied by high
levels of ketones.  There's no evidence for that that I'm aware of.

Bonking is caused by running out of fuel.  If you have lots of
ketones, you're not out of fuel and you don't bonk.

If sugar-burning people were able to generate ketones as fast as you
suggest, not only would no-one bonk, but the adaptation period for a
low-carb diet wouldn't exist...

And when I google "bonk high ketones" I get this thread.  ;)

On 8/25/12, Luis Manuel <lmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> If you're feeling that crappy when you're bonking, you don't have high
>> ketone levels anyway...
>>
>
> Care to provide an explanation or evidence? From my understanding exercise
> induced hypoglicemia goes accompanied by high FFA metabolism which goes
> accompanied by higher ketone levels. There is no way around that. If I am
> wrong I promise I would be the first to admit it, there is no shame in
> that.
>
>
>>
>> _________________________________
>> Tucker
>>
>
> --
> "Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..."  hosted by Barefoot Ted
>
> Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe
>


--
_________________________________
Tucker
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119341] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/25/12 8:11 AM
No difference except for the evidence... ;) This only occurs in skinny
children...
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Joe
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > "Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..."  hosted by Barefoot
>>> Ted
>>> >
>>> > Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> _________________________________
>>> Tucker
>>>
>>
>
> --
> "Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..."  hosted by Barefoot Ted
>
> Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe
>


--
_________________________________
Tucker
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119341] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/25/12 8:38 AM
Ketones are produced and circulate when two conditions occur:

1 low insulin
2 ffa metabolism is present (the higher the rate,  the higher the ketone production.

 It is no different than sweating under exercise when it's hot. There might be a ton of articles that say specifically that people sweat during hot marathons, I don't know?

Those two conditions are present in a bonking athlete. In fact it is behind the basis of the popular bonk training method:

 http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitting_the_wall#section_5


PS And Tuck, running on fat and ketone's alone  is an impossibility. You still need a certain percentage of sugar, even MAF is like 33% if I recall correctly. If you believe that I am wrong, you submit the evidence.

Those two conditions are present

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119341] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/25/12 10:07 AM
No difference except for the evidence... ;) This only occurs in skinny
children...

Only the specific one occurs on the second category,  in skinny children. Form the article:

"Ketotic hypoglycemia is a medical term used in two ways: (1) broadly, to refer to any circumstance in which low blood glucose is accompanied by ketosis, and (2) in a much more restrictive way to refer to recurrent episodes of hypoglycemic symptoms with ketosis and, often, vomiting, in young children. "
 
A bonk would be part of the first, "broadly". Here (all from that article):

"Hypoglycemia with ketosis: the broad sense

There are hundreds of causes of hypoglycemia. Normally, the defensive, physiological response to a falling blood glucose is reduction ofinsulin secretion to undetectable levels, and release of glucagonadrenaline, and other counterregulatory hormones. This shift ofhormones initiates glycogenolysis and gluconeogenesis in the liver, and lipolysis in adipose tissue. Lipids are metabolized totriglycerides, in turn to fatty acids, which are transformed in the mitochondria of liver and kidney cells to the ketone bodiesacetoacetatebeta-hydroxybutyrate, and acetone. Ketones can be used by the brain as an alternate fuel when glucose is scarce. A high level of ketones in the blood, ketosis, is thus a normal response to hypoglycemia in healthy people of all ages.

The presence or absence of ketosis is therefore an important clue to the cause of hypoglycemia in an individual patient. Absence of ketosis ("nonketotic hypoglycemia") most often indicates excessive insulin as the cause of the hypoglycemia. Less commonly, it may indicate a fatty acid oxidation disorder."

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119573] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/25/12 1:00 PM
"A bonk would be part of the first, "broadly"."
 
Nope, because you arent' producing ketones.  That's why you bonk.  Here's Phinney & Volek, from Low-Carb Living book:
 
"...But if the same person restricts carbohydrates to less than 50 grams per day for a week or two, raising ketones above 1mM, bonking disappears - wheher the rapid onset version during exercise or the slow version at 3 in the afternoon."
 
That's what the low-carb flu is, a prolonged bonk as your body gets back in he habit of producing ketones and utilizing them for fuel.  Once you've trained that cability back up, then you produce ketones when you run out of sugar, and you don't bonk.
 


 


>&g
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119573] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/25/12 1:07 PM
Or there's this, from page 68 in the same book:
 
"In this situation [bonking], it would be convenient if this fuel conundrum could be solved by your liver making some ketones from body fat to help fill the gap in the brain's fuel supply.  However, this appears to be a flaw in human design because liver ketone production does not kick in until daily carbohydrate intake is consistently at or under 50 grams (200 kcal) per day for a number of days.  Thus there appears to e a functional gap in the body's fuel homeostasis when dietary carbohydrate intake is consistently somewhere between 600 and 200 kcal per day."

 


 


>>> >>>>&g
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119573] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/25/12 1:35 PM
See, insulin doesn't control ketone production.  Insulin level signals the body to produce other hormones, which do control ketone production:
 
"Glucagon regulation of plasma ketone body concentration in human diabetes."
 
Typically, when insulin goes down, glucagon goes up, because glucagon signals the liver to produce glucose also.
 
 
No doubt there are other hormones involved, some of which we might not even be aware of.  Leptin was only recently discovered, for instance, and is pretty crucial to the whole process.
 
I've got to go pull some more weeds. ;)

 
 


 


>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>&
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119573] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/25/12 2:32 PM
Nope, because you arent' producing ketones.  That's why you bonk.  Here's Phinney & Volek, from Low-Carb Living book:

I have that book as well as all the other ones from Phinney and Volek, and have read them very carefully. They are talking about an unfit runner going for a short jog and then bonking.. And explaining why that happens in terms of him not being fat adapted. Of course if they were fat adapted (remember I am doing it myself) they wouldn't bonk in such a short run because more fat is used as fuel during the complete run and more carbs are spared + you get whatever you can from ketones.

That does NOT mean that once you go further down into the bonk (into hypoglicemic crisis) you are still unable to burn fat. The problem is that a non-adapted person would burn through ALL their glycogen and only then they are literally forced to burn fat or else they would die. They have to burn something, even through the bonk..... 

You are taking things out of context, if only those that do VLC or consume below 50 grams per day wouldn't bonk, then the vast majority of people (including all ironman athletes!) would bunk in every marathon/ultra etc... Ketones are created whenever you burn fat, that everyone (including those not in VLC...) do so during prolonged exercise is common knowledge:

" Ketone bodies are produced by the liver and used peripherally as an energy source when glucose is not readily available. The two main ketone bodies are acetoacetate (AcAc) and 3-beta-hydroxybutyrate (3HB), while acetone is the third, and least abundant, ketone body.  Ketones are always present in the blood and their levels increase during fasting and prolonged exercise."





>>> >>>>>>>>>>&
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119573] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/25/12 2:42 PM
Who said that insuline controls ketone production? In any case they would help regulate ketone levels. High insulin levels (like the ones on your non fat adapted runner doing a short run, above...) for example would maintain fat stored in muscles and is the reason why type 2 diabetics get fat, page 80 Phinney and Volek....

In any case I was very clear the first time around and I quote myself:

"Ketones are produced and circulate when two conditions occur:

1 low insulin
2 ffa metabolism is present (the higher the rate,  the higher the ketone production.

It is no different than sweating under exercise when it's hot. There might be a ton of articles that say specifically that people sweat during hot marathons, I don't know?

Those two conditions are present in a bonking athlete. In fact it is behind the basis of the popular bonk training method:

 http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitting_the_wall#section_5"





Re: [Minimalist Runner:119573] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/25/12 2:58 PM
Okay, I don't want to waste any more time in this. One last time, in a nutshell (of course an oversimplification but in broad terms I believe it is very accurate) :

1- Severe hypoglicemia has to be accompanied by fat burning or you would die, that part can be corroborated easily. 

2- Ketones are a by product of fat burning metabolism. Can also be corroborated easily.

3- Then hypoglicemia during exercise=bonking=fat burning=ketone production


 


 


>>> gets <b
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119573] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/25/12 3:29 PM
And expanding on my previous post. Note that the guy in the example ("the same person" in your P&V post...) goes for a 50 minute run (again unfit starter jogger...). He is loaded to his gills with glycogen but is making the effort of his life to finish that 50 minute run. 

That is NOT a hypoglicemic bonk as he has plenty of glycogen left after such a short run. He still feels like shit and that is understandable....
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119581] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/26/12 4:54 PM
Biology exists to confound such simple models.  That's why you have to do experiments.  I've not seen any that corroborate what you say, so that's not easy.  And what you're doing is arguing from analogy which also doesn't always work in biology.
 
I certainly hope that if you fix your metabolism, or have a solid one to start with, that you can easily avoid a bonk by transitioning from glucose to ketones.  But that's clearly not happening in the people who do bonk, or they wouldn't. :)



 


 


>>> >>&
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119581] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/26/12 5:14 PM
Biology exists to confound such simple models.  That's why you have to do experiments.  I've not seen any that corroborate what you say, so that's not easy.  And what you're doing is arguing from analogy which also doesn't always work in biology.

It is not an analogy, you have to burn something or you are dead. If you are out of glucose it has to be fat and ketones. But fat and ketones alone are just not enough.
 
I certainly hope that if you fix your metabolism, or have a solid one to start with, that you can easily avoid a bonk by transitioning from glucose to ketones. 

You can't transition from glucose to ketones completely. Ketones burn at an RQ of around .68. No one can do much at such a low RQ.
 
But that's clearly not happening in the people who do bonk, or they wouldn't. :)

Tuck, we are going in circles, from everything I've read what you are saying is just not possible. If it is ok with you we can agree to disagree or we can keep dragging this on, and on... I give you my word that if find out I am wrong I will be the first to start a tread about it with the subject line "I was wrong, Tuck was right!". Also give you my word that I am not being sarcastic.





 


 


>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>&
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119581] Re: Gluconeogenesis JasonH 8/26/12 7:21 PM
"But fat and ketones alone are just not enough. "

Pardon me for barging in but it that not the whole point of ketosis ?  What else are you thinking you need ? (Besides an adequate supply protein and various minerals).  Any glucose the body needs is of course sythensized.

Maybe I am missing some context and should have kept better track of this thread.

Jason


Re: [Minimalist Runner:119618] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/27/12 4:28 AM

Jason, you also need sugar. The main difference between a fat adapted and a non fat adapted person is that the first one is a Lot more thrifty with the sugar. Consumes less and saves more.

The thrifty one uses more fat which in turn produces more ketones which combined with sugar (less than the non fat adapted) makes him more efficient.

After Most of the sugar is gone (or if it can't be processed diabetes 1). There are two options:

1 whatever sugar (and also ketones) is available goes to the brain. Body burns fat and ketones. This is extreme and also extremely inefficient.
2 perish

The fat adapted person (because he is thrifty) is better at preventing one.

--
"Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..." hosted by Barefoot Ted
 
Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119618] Re: Gluconeogenesis JasonH 8/27/12 5:49 AM
May I ask where you have read that?  I have yet to come across any low carb documentation that says we need an external intake of sugar.  I would be interested in reading that.

Jason

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119618] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/27/12 6:08 AM
May I ask where you have read that?  I have yet to come across any low carb documentation that says we need an external intake of sugar.  I would be interested in reading that.

Jason


It is everywhere, just look at any RQ graph or substrate efficiency graph. I didn't said you (necessarily) need an external intake of sugar, what I said is that under normal (or non-extreme) conditions we ALWAYS burn a combination of fat and sugar. If you get into the extreme conditions where you either don't have any CHO left (or whatever you have your body can't process process) you just burn fat and ketones (or die) and at that point you are in world of crap where running normaly is just not possible.

Here is one graph (Gordo is an extreme fat burner), if you need more you can use google or just let me know:





Re: [Minimalist Runner:119618] Re: Gluconeogenesis JasonH 8/27/12 6:24 AM
Ah I was taking your statement that you always need sugar as we needed to consume sugar.  No doubt there are all sorts of cool things going on internally.

Jason

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119618] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/27/12 6:27 AM
And yes, you can (and will) create some sugar by gluconeognesis (the title of this tread...). It is just that even for the best fat burner in the world (Noakes cites Mark Allen, we could do this by the numbers if you guys prefer...) the amount of sugar needed in a long race with intensity cannot be sustained by gluconeogenesis alone. To pull an Ironman in the times pros do it they need some sugar in the tank at the start and some refueling in the way.

It has nothing to do with how they train, in which case it makes perfect sense to restrict carbs to train the body to be thrifty.

BTW, I am convinced about this (it DOES NOT contradict Phinney and Volek, Maffetone, Attia, Noakes (before and now..) etc... in any way....) and will stand by it. If you guys  understand it differently fine, we can just agree to disagree and finish this right here..

Again: And one last time, here  are my positions:  

1- "..fat and ketones alone are just not enough. " to fuel any kind of athletic activity, sugar in the tank is ALSO needed.

2- A fat adapted person spares sugar and has it readily available but is NOT immune to bonking. 

3- A non fat adapted person will bonk a lot more easily than a fat adapted person because they will burn through the sugar faster. 

4- Once ANYONE bonks because of hypoglicemia the body switches to fat and ketones. And that person is in a world of hurt in which if she/he insists on going through the finish line it will literally be a: march of death. 
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119618] Re: Gluconeogenesis JasonH 8/27/12 6:33 AM
Also I remember reading that there are some structures in the brain that don't have mitochondria so some glucose is needed which is why the brain can switch over to ketones up to about 75% of its energy needs.  Of course that is what gluceoneogenisis is for...

Jason

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119618] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/27/12 6:37 AM
Ah I was taking your statement that you always need sugar as we needed to consume sugar.  No doubt there are all sorts of cool things going on internally.

Jason


Agreed. And let me make one last point. Ketones might be great medicine, would help spare some sugar, one of the common fuels of our ancestors as well as wild animals, something many people never use, etc......

What they are NOT is some sort of "fairy" nutrient that will prevent bonking once you run out of sugar. It is NOT an either or situation, in a marathon/ironman etc.. you are using both fuels with sugar being essential.
 
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119618] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/27/12 6:42 AM
Yes. The brain gets fueled by sugar but can substitute some/most of it with ketones. Not all though... 

And the rest of the body (in order to move..) needs fat and sugar (again ketones can make up for some of the lack of sugar but NOT all, the harder the intensity the more sugar you need regardless of how fat adapated you are). Fat I strongly believe is the better fuel as well as learning to spare whatever sugar is available (for an emergency or a race...).
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119618] Re: Gluconeogenesis JasonH 8/27/12 9:12 AM
Yeah even that Dr Asomething we were talking about uses that generation ucan stuff before his workouts as a slow release energy supply.  Man that stuff is expensive :)

For intense exercise it does appear as though everyone supplements.  I never need to for training but I am just on the trails having fun most of the time. The logical answer seems to be you need to supplement once you reach an intensity that outpaces hour fat burning.

What is not clear to me is if my muscles are happily gobbling up ffas for energy can they all of a sudden use the glucose I throw in my bloodstream? Not sure how ketoadapted tissues plus glucose works.

During really long endurance runs I am still trying to figure out the what and when.  It is clear it needs to be as low glycemic as possible.


Jason

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119650] Re: Gluconeogenesis ebank 8/27/12 9:20 AM

Jason
Ucan is on the expensive side, but remember, you are not using it like gels.  It's about one ucan to every 3-4 gels I used to take.

Sent from Android

--
"Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..."  hosted by Barefoot Ted

Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119650] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/27/12 9:29 AM
"Not sure how ketoadapted tissues plus glucose works."
 
Don't forget, at higher intensities you're doing ketoadapted + glucose already.  This is simply a supplement to gluconeogenesis, effectively.  Reduce the liver and kidney's demand for glucose generation by providing a low-GI source of blood glucose.


--
"Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..."  hosted by Barefoot Ted

Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe



--
_________________________________
Tucker
 

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119618] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/27/12 9:40 AM
Exactly, and don't forget that UCAN stuff is made by Volek, meaning it is supposed to be compatible with what he and Phinney are talking about... ;)
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119650] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/27/12 9:41 AM
+1
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119650] Re: Gluconeogenesis JasonH 8/27/12 9:45 AM
That is what I was wondering.  Am I supplementing glucose for the areas in the body that need it anyway thus reducing the burden on the liver/gluconeogensis or is the glucose actually helping 'power' the muscles along with FFAs ?

It would make sense that we are simply supplementing the tissues that needs glucose anyway and the other tissues that are keto adapted just keep firing away on FFAs.

If that is the case it makes the fueling strategy a bit more logical/easier to deal with..

Jason

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119655] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/27/12 9:46 AM
He's on the advisory board, that doesn't mean he makes it... But yeah, that's pretty interesting.  I did not know that.
 
--
"Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..." hosted by Barefoot Ted
 
Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe



--
_________________________________
Tucker
 

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119650] Re: Gluconeogenesis JasonH 8/27/12 9:47 AM
That is true I keep forgetting that, I would not be downing it at the same rate as gels :)

That Dr. Attia guy fasted for 24 hrs then did a hard 6 hr bike ride on a couple of ounces of nuts and one "serving" of the Ucan stuff before the workout.  So yeah not much at all.

I keep wondering if I should pull the the trigger on the UCAN stuff...

Jason


Re: [Minimalist Runner:119659] Re: Gluconeogenesis ebank 8/27/12 9:50 AM

Tuck
He doesn't hide the fact that he is involved with it.  He talks about it in his lecture during jimmy moore's cruise.   Don't have link in front of me.

Sent from Android

--
"Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..." hosted by Barefoot Ted
 
Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119661] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/27/12 9:51 AM
"He doesn't hide the fact that he is involved with it."
 
I didn't say that he did. :)
 
I just wasn't aware.  Guess I need to get out more.  I usually tune out anything involved with supplements, so I may well have read it somewhere and ignored it.

--
_________________________________
Tucker
 

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119650] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/27/12 9:52 AM

That is what I was wondering.  Am I supplementing glucose for the areas in the body that need it anyway thus reducing the burden on the liver/gluconeogensis or is the glucose actually helping 'power' the muscles along with FFAs ?

It is up to your central governor to decide who gets what :-)... BUT remember that even at slow intensities such as MAF your (overall) consumption of glucose is around 33%.
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119650] Re: Gluconeogenesis JasonH 8/27/12 9:53 AM
The other thing I am not sure about is how to use the UCAN.  They have instructions about taking it before your workout but I have not seen anyone talk about usage beyond the 6 hr mark.

I guess it comes down to I have not yet figured out how to estimate my glucose usage in my new keto adapted body.

I ran 45 miles one weekend day on nothing but water and salt and I started feeling a little sluggish but I am not sure if that was a blood volume issue or a glucose issue.

Jason

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119661] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/27/12 9:56 AM
Huh...
 
"...The increase in glucose flux was markedly less throughout F[asted] exercise. Lower carbohydrate utilization in the F state was accompanied by higher circulating fatty acids and ketone bodies, lower plasma insulin levels, and the maintenance of physical performance reflected by similar time to exhaustion."
 
--
_________________________________
Tucker
 

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119664] Re: Gluconeogenesis ebank 8/27/12 10:06 AM
Jason,
check the website for marathon or ironman.  About every 1:30-2:00.Eliot Bank
elio...@gmail.com
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119657] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/27/12 10:27 AM

I could swear I read somewhere that he was a shareholder, could be wrong... but it doesn't really matters as he actively promotes it.

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119664] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/27/12 10:29 AM

Good link, as expected, fasted people get better at burning fat and sparing.sugar....

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119667] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/27/12 10:31 AM
Indeed, but just being on an advisory board doesn't mean he has ongoing influence over the company.  Still, good to know that he's that big a supporter of the product.
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119669] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/27/12 11:22 AM

To be honest I always thought the product was developed by him and some UConn colleagues ( hoping "UCan" would take flight like "Gator"ade..) as a superlow GI alternative, compatible with low carb living blah, blah.... But I don't really know the details.

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119669] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/27/12 11:25 AM
A couple of papers he wrote about it, in case anyone is interested, I might en up ordering some of that stuff...:


Re: [Minimalist Runner:119671] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/27/12 11:28 AM
"Dr. Tester is the founder of Glycologic Limited, a Professor at Glascow Caledonian University and the inventor of SuperStarch. His company, Glycologic, is dedicated to the creation of nutritional, clinical nutritional and drug delivery systems based on carbohydrates. The company utilizes the unique properties of carbohydrates to develop customized solutions to a wide variety of nutritional and pharmaceutical problems. Dr. Tester's research is focused on understanding how the structure of carbohydrates controls functionality in food, pharmaceutical and related systems with special interest on carbohydrate biosynthesis, the chemical and physical aspects, as well as nutritional properties and industrial applications."
 
He's also on the advisory board.

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119671] Re: Gluconeogenesis ebank 8/27/12 11:30 AM

I think it came from Europe.  They were trying to solve a health issue for children that cannot break down carbs normally.  I believe the ucan site talks about it and phinney and voleck give the details in their performance book, I believe. 

Sent from Android

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119671] Re: Gluconeogenesis ebank 8/27/12 11:31 AM

Oh, you guys beat me to it.

Sent from Android

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119666] Re: Gluconeogenesis Tuck 8/27/12 11:43 AM
Sounds like the answer might be, "Save your money":
 
"Collectively, it is our contention that ingesting HMS may help to spare glycogen during prolonged endurance exercise. Nonetheless, a body of evidence exists suggesting that the consumption of different types and/or dosages of CHO do not alter glycogen utilization kinetics [1,20,21]. Thus, it cannot be definitely concluded that the modest, non-significant increase in fat oxidation that we observed during the HMS condition suggests that muscle glycogen oxidation was spared during the HMS trail. Therefore, future investigations that examine pre- to postexercise intramuscular glycogen concentrations and/or isotopically enriched CHO boluses (to assess exogenous CHO oxidation rates) are needed to confirm our hypothesis that HMS may affect this parameter."
 
 
The results described are so modest as to not be worth the money, IMHO.  Performance was the same, and they don't know if time-to-glycogen depletion was in fact improved.
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119671] Re: Gluconeogenesis Luis Manuel 8/27/12 12:05 PM

I think it came from Europe.  They were trying to solve a health issue for children that cannot break down carbs normally.  


Sounds like Jonah's dad co-started this out then... 

"David Feldman is a co-founder of The UCAN company and is currently a member of its Board of Directors. The UCAN company is a nutraceutical company involved in optimizing energy balance with unique consumer nutritional products for use in many fields, including sports nutrition and weight management.....  Dr. Feldman's involvement with biotechnology stems from the 2001 diagnosis of his oldest son with Glycogen Storage Disease Type 1a. In 2002, Dr. Feldman and his wife, Dr. Wendy Becker, founded The Children's Fund for GSD Research to help find a cure for GSD1. 

Jonah:

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119666] Re: Gluconeogenesis JasonH 8/27/12 12:13 PM
Cool although 'performance' may not be the only advantage.  I could see such a slow release carb being useful for people that tend to have GI issues late in the race.

It might be one of those 'tweaks' that do not matter to us mere mortals.

Jason

More topics »