Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States

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Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States Tuck 8/19/12 8:15 AM
Re: Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States Luis Manuel 8/19/12 10:00 AM
Thanks, I was exited to read that, nothing new however. In summary:

Train low - Race High. 

The second part is easy to infer, all he is saying is that the high (compared with how he trains) carb race consumption of Olson is a lot lower than the one of those that train high. 
Re: [Minimalist Runner:118940] Re: Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States Tuck 8/19/12 10:09 AM
He said train low, race low.

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Re: [Minimalist Runner:118940] Re: Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States Luis Manuel 8/19/12 10:13 AM
No,  he said train low, race: I am not disclosing... except that he ate less calories than others and it wasn't fat calories (he has plenty). Figure out the rest...
Re: Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States Joe Maller 8/19/12 10:21 AM
This jumped out at me:

But Olson did eat [during the race]– so . . . was it glucose gels?  Or did he go for butter?

STEVE PHINNEY:  Well typically he probably wouldn’t eat butter or fat anyway because this guy is a super slim, highly efficient, fat-burning athlete.  He’s got very little body fat, but if let’s say he’s 7% by weight body fat that means he still has at least 30,000 calories of fat in his body when he starts the race.


So what does he eat? Fairy dust? 

joe


 
On Sunday, August 19, 2012 11:15:31 AM UTC-4, Tuck wrote:
Re: Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States Joe Maller 8/19/12 10:25 AM
Another one:

...this stuff called glycogen which is kind of like starch granules.  It’s kind of like flour.  Particles of flour that are stored in the liver and in the muscle and can be released on demand, but the human body cannot store very much of that.

I suppose that's basically true, but what an unfortunate metaphor.  

joe
Re: [Minimalist Runner:118943] Re: Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States Tuck 8/19/12 11:33 AM
Re: [Minimalist Runner:118943] Re: Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States Luis Manuel 8/19/12 12:00 PM
I have some of that Vespa, a friend bought it in Zombie Runner a few weeks ago (mainly to get a laugh... ). Their claim is that it helps further spare glycogen in a fat adapted person in very long runs, not that you race low...
Re: [Minimalist Runner:118943] Re: Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States Luis Manuel 8/19/12 12:09 PM
Gels, gels, gels..
Re: [Minimalist Runner:118949] Re: Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States ebank 8/19/12 1:36 PM

I will report shortly on my fueling for my 125 mile ride with a 5 mile run tacked on a bit later (or tomorrow).
EB

Sent from Android

On Aug 19, 2012 3:09 PM, "Luis Manuel" <lmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
Gels, gels, gels..


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Re: [Minimalist Runner:118944] Re: Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States Viking Runner 8/19/12 2:27 PM
He might have gotten that metaphor  from Dr Bernstein who also refers to glycogen as a starch like substance....

Carl


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Re: [Minimalist Runner:118949] Re: Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States Luis Manuel 8/19/12 3:07 PM
Can't wait Eliot..
Re: Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States Tuck 8/19/12 3:35 PM
Glycogen *is* a starch-like substance...
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Re: Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States Jason Robillard 8/20/12 2:35 AM
Observation during 100s more or less confirms this: "It may well be that all of us don’t come out of the exact same cookie-cutter in terms of what we look like and what our metabolism looks like."

It would be more useful mimicking the training mileage and intensity of elites versus their diet. Google "Zach Gingerich diet."
Re: Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States Luis Manuel 8/20/12 4:36 AM
I say don't mimick either. My guess is there is less of a chance of dying if you mimick diet....
Re: Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States Jason Robillard 8/20/12 6:13 AM
All diets are highly-correlated with death. ;-)
Re: Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States Luis Manuel 8/20/12 9:40 AM
Living also... 

I was referring to having a death match with the central governor...
Re: [Minimalist Runner:118965] Re: Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States JZ 8/20/12 10:19 AM
>It would be more useful mimicking the training mileage and intensity of elites versus their diet.

I don't think we are trying to mimic what the elites do.  Rather, it's confirmation of a low carb approach when we find elites who are "mimicking" what we are trying to do, and having success with it.


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Re: [Minimalist Runner:119000] Re: Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States Tuck 8/20/12 10:51 AM
+1
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Re: Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States Malo 8/20/12 1:19 PM
pardon if redundant or repost, but i just saw 'dis: http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2012/08/11/western-states-100-low-carber-wins-ultramarathon-steve-phinney-and-jeff-volek-study/


On Sunday, August 19, 2012 11:15:31 AM UTC-4, Tuck wrote:
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119009] Re: Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States Tuck 8/20/12 1:25 PM
Yup, same as OP.

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Re: [Minimalist Runner:118965] Re: Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States Jason Robillard 8/20/12 2:10 PM
An n=1 should be more than enough to confirm its effectiveness. This seems more like a confirmation bias sort of thing.
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119012] Re: Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States JZ 8/20/12 4:33 PM
My n=1 is not going to show that a low carb diet will work for people who race 100 mile events (because I don't race 100 mile events).   Are you saying that anytime a researcher gets the result that they were expecting to get (confirming their bias) that the result should be thrown out? 
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119012] Re: Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States Luis Manuel 8/20/12 5:22 PM
+1

In any case, train low race high is hardly n=1..
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119012] Re: Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States Jason Robillard 8/20/12 5:32 PM
No. My point is there's a lot of diet strategies used for the winners of 100s. One person breaking a course record is hardly evidence that one method is superior to another. Neither is one poorly constructed study (the WS100 research). Low carb/ train low/ race high training may work exceptionally well for some (including myself), but it doesn't mean it's the holy grail of racing strategies. A lot more hundos are run and won with high carb fueling strategies. That alone should be a red flag that the WS100 research is dubious.

My point: we should be a little more skeptical and not fall in love with a singular idea.
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119012] Re: Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States Jason Robillard 8/20/12 5:33 PM
If we're talking about metabolic theory, great. If we're talking about ways we can improve our own performance/health/subjective experience, n=1 is all that matters.



On Monday, August 20, 2012 6:22:26 PM UTC-6, Luis Manuel wrote:
+1

In any case, train low race high is hardly n=1..


On Monday, August 20, 2012 7:33:24 PM UTC-4, JZ wrote:
My n=1 is not going to show that a low carb diet will work for people who race 100 mile events (because I don't race 100 mile events).   Are you saying that anytime a researcher gets the result that they were expecting to get (confirming their bias) that the result should be thrown out? 
 
 
On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 5:10 PM, Jason Robillard <robil...@gmail.com> wrote:
An n=1 should be more than enough to confirm its effectiveness. This seems more like a confirmation bias sort of thing.




On Monday, August 20, 2012 11:19:27 AM UTC-6, JZ wrote:
>It would be more useful mimicking the training mileage and intensity of elites versus their diet.

I don't think we are trying to mimic what the elites do.  Rather, it's confirmation of a low carb approach when we find elites who are "mimicking" what we are trying to do, and having success with it.


On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 5:35 AM, Jason Robillard <robil...@gmail.com> wrote:
Observation during 100s more or less confirms this: "It may well be that all of us don’t come out of the exact same cookie-cutter in terms of what we look like and what our metabolism looks like."

It would be more useful mimicking the training mileage and intensity of elites versus their diet. Google "Zach Gingerich diet."






On Sunday, August 19, 2012 9:15:31 AM UTC-6, Tuck wrote:
http://yelling-stop.blogspot.com/2012/08/low-carb-vs-low-fat-at-western-states.html

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Re: [Minimalist Runner:119012] Re: Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States Luis Manuel 8/20/12 5:55 PM
we should be a little more skeptical and not fall in love with a singular idea.

Deja vu:

"...it’s okay to fall in love with an idea or philosophy, but don’t marry it. "

Re: Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States Tuck 8/20/12 5:58 PM
Sort of +1.

Volek hasn't even released his study yet, so it's a little soon to be
throwing it out.

Also, a few years ago folks thought that it was impossible to do a 100
mile race with a low-carb training or racing protocol.  Olsen tosses
that hypothesis in the dustbin, again. Mark Allen put it there the
first time around...

Scientific theories aren't proven, they're disproven.  The best they
can hope for is to get to the point where no-one argues against them.



On 8/20/12, Jason Robillard <robil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> No. My point is there's a lot of diet strategies used for the winners of
> 100s. One person breaking a course record is hardly evidence that one
> method is superior to another. Neither is one poorly constructed study (the
>
> WS100 research). Low carb/ train low/ race high training may work
> exceptionally well for some (including myself), but it doesn't mean it's
> the holy grail of racing strategies. A lot more hundos are run and won with
>
> high carb fueling strategies. That alone should be a red flag that the
> WS100 research is dubious.
>
> My point: we should be a little more skeptical and not fall in love with a
> singular idea.
>
>
>
> On Monday, August 20, 2012 5:33:24 PM UTC-6, JZ wrote:
>>
>> My n=1 is not going to show that a low carb diet will work for people who
>>
>> race 100 mile events (because I don't race 100 mile events).   Are you
>> saying that anytime a researcher gets the result that they were expecting
>>
>> to get (confirming their bias) that the result should be thrown out?
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 5:10 PM, Jason Robillard
>> <robil...@gmail.com<javascript:>
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> An n=1 should be more than enough to confirm its effectiveness. This
>>> seems more like a confirmation bias sort of thing.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Monday, August 20, 2012 11:19:27 AM UTC-6, JZ wrote:
>>>
>>>> >It would be more useful mimicking the training mileage and intensity of
>>>> >
>>>> elites versus their diet.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think we are trying to mimic what the elites do.  Rather, it's
>>>> confirmation of a low carb approach when we find elites who are
>>>> "mimicking"
>>>> what we are trying to do, and having success with it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 5:35 AM, Jason Robillard
>>>> <robil...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Observation during 100s more or less confirms this: "*It may well be
>>>>> that all of us don’t come out of the exact same cookie-cutter in terms
>>>>> of
>>>>> what we look like and what our metabolism looks like*."
>>>>>
>>>>> It would be more useful mimicking the training mileage and intensity of
>>>>>
>>>>> elites versus their diet. Google "Zach Gingerich diet."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sunday, August 19, 2012 9:15:31 AM UTC-6, Tuck wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://yelling-stop.blogspot.**c**om/2012/08/low-carb-vs-low-**fat**
>>>>>> -at-western-states.html<http://yelling-stop.blogspot.com/2012/08/low-carb-vs-low-fat-at-western-states.html>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> ______________________________****___
>>>>>> Tucker
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>> "Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..." hosted by Barefoot
>>>>> Ted
>>>>>
>>>>> Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/**
>>>>> group/huaraches/subscribe<http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Joe
>>>>
>>>  --
>>> "Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..." hosted by Barefoot Ted
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Joe
>>
>
> --
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Re: Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States Luis Manuel 8/20/12 6:40 PM
With or without Volek study I am pretty much convinced refined carbs are no different than your typical illegal drug. Craving them in a race is probably healthy (just like craving "___whatever" in times of war/trauma..), in everyday life not so much....
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119018] Re: Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States Sean Butler 8/20/12 6:51 PM
Also, a few years ago folks thought that it was impossible to do a 100
mile race with a low-carb training or racing protocol.  Olsen tosses
that hypothesis in the dustbin, again. 

I thought what Olsen ate during the race was being kept secret.

From the article:

Why didn’t he need much?  And what DID he eat?

STEVE PHINNEY:  I wouldn’t tell you the details even if I knew because it’s confidential research information.  And I don’t think he’d want any of the details of what he’s doing to be public, because, realize, all of a sudden this guy knows absolutely that he’s got a remarkable competitive edge.



/Sean
Re: Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States Luis Manuel 8/20/12 6:52 PM
BTW why are Coca Cola execs so darn stupid? They have Ironman (non Coke sponsored) champions swearing by the stuff, Jordan Rapp whom I am almost sure trains low-races high... was calling it "Mana from heaven" after he won the US IM championship in NYC... Multiple timesWorld champ Macca is probably even more enthusiastic,.. 

I know what I am suggesting is sick but so is the world,  I should be an agent... Spin, spin, spin.... lol
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119018] Re: Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States Luis Manuel 8/20/12 6:58 PM
Yes, but go up and look at Tuck's links. The race secret was: Gels, gels, gels.. oh and Vespa (to reduce the gel cravings, not sure if that worked, lol).
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119024] Re: Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States Tuck 8/20/12 7:01 PM
He did mention that he didn't have as many gels as he'd like, so it may have been gel, gel,... :)

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Re: [Minimalist Runner:119024] Re: Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States Luis Manuel 8/20/12 7:11 PM
Yes:

"... When I finally reached the aid station, I was so stoked to get a gel in me, but they did not have one gel without caffeine. I don’t use caffeine and after many bathroom stops at last year’s Western States, I had decided to not use caffeine for this race. I really needed some nourishment quick, so I decided to have a few quick drinks of Sierra Mist and two orange slices. Not exactly what I had in mind, but it had to do. I knew I would be to my crew in five or so miles and then I could restock my pockets with gels that work for me." 
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119027] Re: Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States Tuck 8/20/12 7:15 PM
Well, if Attia's right about you having five hours of glycogen in you when you're going at a good clip, you'd need a few for WS.
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119027] Re: Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States ebank 8/20/12 7:16 PM

All those gels always have me gi problems in races.

Sent from Android

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119027] Re: Low-Carb vs. Low-Fat at Western States Luis Manuel 8/20/12 7:20 PM
Exactly. And don't get me wrong, NOTHING that works so fast and so effectively under such extreme circumstances should be consumed carelessly....
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