Marathon in ketones

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Marathon in ketones Horacio 8/23/12 10:46 AM

Hi all.. This weekend I plan to run a marathon on ketosis... Ive been MAF trainning and 80% low carb/paleo for over a year. Any tips to avoid a shameful bonk? Current plan is to fuel with MAP aminoacids, coconut oil, and gen ucan before race and do the 42k on water only. Planned  race HR is 5-10 beats over MAF HR.

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119373] Marathon in ketones Doug Sims 8/23/12 11:03 AM
Right now, we have about 3 active topics about this type of thing
(ketosis, low carb performance, etc.).

They all have a large number of posts (>100) so I guess you need to
start reading. :)

The general consensus seems to be that if you have trained your body
to burn fats correctly, then you won't bonk. The other 100+ posts are
us debating what that actually means. ;)

I have no experience with marathons, but it seems that fueling with
that stuff before the race might be a hindrance. Why not start the
race fasted and fuel as needed with the coconut oil and Ucan? (or
water only if you've managed that in training runs of this length??).

Why the plan of a set HR above MAF? That may also set you up for
failure, rather than listening to your body and adjusting (HR) as
necessary.

Again, I have no marathon experience, so take my advice for what it's worth. :)
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Re: [Minimalist Runner:119373] Marathon in ketones Doug Sims 8/23/12 11:21 AM
Horacio,
Look at the most recent posts on the thread titled "Targeted/Cyclical
Ketogenic Diets" and that will be pretty much the answer to most of
your questions here.

Also, those guys have more experience with the long distance races.
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119373] Marathon in ketones JZ 8/23/12 1:28 PM
My understanding (may easily be flawed) is that if you are fat adapted, you won't bonk.  So, this may be a test of how fat adapted you are.  However, if you want to perform better, then feeding yourself some carbs during the event will likely help you to run at a higher intensity.  Are you trying to set a PR? Or, are you more interested in finding out if you can run without fueling during the event?  


On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Horacio Lyon <horac...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi all.. This weekend I plan to run a marathon on ketosis... Ive been MAF trainning and 80% low carb/paleo for over a year. Any tips to avoid a shameful bonk? Current plan is to fuel with MAP aminoacids, coconut oil, and gen ucan before race and do the 42k on water only. Planned  race HR is 5-10 beats over MAF HR.

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Re: [Minimalist Runner:119373] Marathon in ketones Horacio 8/23/12 2:00 PM
Hi Doug, thanks for feedback.

Im plan to go over MAF in order to do a better time... MAF pace is my ultramarathon pace, which I know I can do for 42k... 

Plan to take aminoacids in order to diminish gluconeogenesis possible damage...

Best
H
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119373] Marathon in ketones Luis Manuel 8/23/12 5:19 PM
Someone that is fat adapted can also bunk but not as easily...

In a way a bonk is nothing else than the brain making a decision:

"dude you screwed up, every single available gram of glucose from now on is mine and NO ONE ELSE, insulin take a day off..."

"...oh, and btw dude, I hope you are fat adapted because fat and ketones is all you are getting (heart, you are all set, I know you are adapted ;-) ...)...."
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119373] Marathon in ketones Luis Manuel 8/23/12 5:31 PM
And Horacio, like JZ wrote.. " Are you trying to set a PR? Or, are you more interested in finding out if you can run without fueling during the event?"

If it is the first one I wouldn't start the race in ketosis, after the gun goes you are basically in damage control mode....

Now, this doesn't means pigging out on carbs, if everything goes well (meaning no side effects from gobbling up carbs, don't count on it...) it won''t hurt you but you won't gain anything by that either....

A great rule of thumb that is surprisingly (or not...) practically Always on the money is as follows: you bonk in a (long) race, check your overall time, now multiply you MAF pace times the race distance... see if they match....
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119416] Marathon in ketones JZ 8/26/12 9:03 AM
Just came across this report of a marathon in ketosis... http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread64390.html
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119591] Marathon in ketones ebank 8/26/12 11:58 AM

Thanks for sharing.

What are the general thoughts on long term effects here?

Sent from Android

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119591] Marathon in ketones Luis Manuel 8/26/12 12:48 PM
I might have to reconsider this whole thing... went for a 16 mile race today, for perspective I am about 2 months into VLC... the race was awful.

Half marathon split was slower than any (4 splits) in my previous two marathons. At that point I just gave up and slowly jogged (+ walked) the rest.

This is n=1 and it is obviously different for others. Not sure what I will do next as I was feeling better overall. But I still wonder why I didn't lost any weight plus my HRV readings went way down... Perhaps I will try to slowly add some carbs, will think it through the next couple of days.

Re: [Minimalist Runner:119598] Marathon in ketones ebank 8/26/12 1:06 PM

So interesting.  The individuality of this is quite amazing.  I haven't raced since going vlc but my performance doesn't seem to be affected.  Aside from the track workout I wrote about last thursday (that I did at a hm pace that was faster than I expected), I did 2 and a half hour easy today but added 3 x 5 min@ hm pace at 2 hours into it.  It was hard but I dont think it was any harder than when I added "stuff" to my longer runs before my last marathon.   I also feel pretty good since. 

Sent from Android

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Re: [Minimalist Runner:119598] Marathon in ketones JZ 8/26/12 1:42 PM
Luis, have you read Peter Attia's blog?  He needed to adjust a few things to get the vlc diet to work for him (I think he reduced his protein intake and increased his sodium and magnesium intake).


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Re: [Minimalist Runner:119598] Marathon in ketones Viking Runner 8/26/12 1:57 PM
Luis,
 
I don't know how old you are...this is my personal opinion of course....but I think we need to put things in perspective as you said...my opinion 2 months ain't much....we need to give it time (I feel like the turtle saying it to the hare)...we live in a world where we ALWAYS expect instant gratification in every facette.....we think our bodies will switch like the flick of a switch, for the slighlty "more patient" perhaps in a few months (pun intended)....our bodies have been through a lot (that is if we have been carb eating for decades)....eating the wrong crap for a looong time...I for one don't expect my body to all of a sudden become a more efficient engine...sure we will feel less hungry pretty soon therafter (after fat adaptation)... be able to run farther on just water and salt without craving food afterwards.....but I think the mitochondrias need time, a lot of it...especially if you are slighlty older....the entire body, system need time to change...and that I personally believe don't happen in a few months....how long depends how badly and how long you have worn out your parts....and we all have certain parts that might be more prone to wear and tear than others...it's also contingent upon how strong or easily the genes are expressed for the better when you change fuel...and reading about Dr Davis experience of his patients reversing plaque build up in their arteries (read less plaque more oxygen in the pipes per heart beat)...it can take years to clean the pipes out...I for one don't expect miracles in a few weeks or months.....just being active is not an automatic for good health (it helps for most).....there have been plenty of skinny carb runners having clogged arteries......
 
Carl
who would like to see the faces of my children if I reverted back to my old camera and told them that they would have to wait a week or two before they could see any pictures...

From: Luis Manuel <lmc...@gmail.com>
To: huar...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, August 26, 2012 3:48:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Minimalist Runner:119598] Marathon in ketones

I might have to reconsider this whole thing... went for a 16 mile race today, for perspective I am about 2 months into VLC... the race was awful.

Half marathon split was slower than any (4 splits) in my previous two marathons. At that point I just gave up and slowly jogged (+ walked) the rest.

This is n=1 and it is obviously different for others. Not sure what I will do next as I was feeling better overall. But I still wonder why I didn't lost any weight plus my HRV readings went way down... Perhaps I will try to slowly add some carbs, will think it through the next couple of days.

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Re: [Minimalist Runner:119598] Marathon in ketones Luis Manuel 8/26/12 2:53 PM
Thanks all!

Eliot (and Carl): As Carl suggests the difference might have to do with you being younger and fitter. 

JZ:  I followed up on supplementing with both magnesium and sodium and I also cut on the protein (I don't count calories so not sure if I am inside the proper range..). Will try to read a bit more on Attia's site, I keep postponing it...

Carl: Thanks for your detailed response! I probably will continue as feeling better throughout the day is more important to me than races. I am 44... Where can I read more about dr. Davis?
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119606] Marathon in ketones Viking Runner 8/26/12 3:00 PM
I bought the Track Your Plaque compendium which I found useful.....https://shop.trackyourplaque.com/Product/78/typ-program-guide.aspx...although I don't subscribe to Canola oil which he and Phinney & Volek, Bernstein do (just because it's monounsaturated does not cut it for me), Jaminet and Gedgaudas don't....I take the conservative route...
 
Carl
age is just as a number as they say...it's how you wear it (down)..:-)

From: Luis Manuel <lmc...@gmail.com>
To: huar...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, August 26, 2012 5:53:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Minimalist Runner:119606] Marathon in ketones

Thanks all!
Re: [Minimalist Runner:119606] Marathon in ketones Tuck 8/26/12 3:13 PM
LOL.  I'm 44 too... Age had better not be a deterrent. ;)--
_________________________________
Tucker
 

Re: Marathon in ketones Nick J 8/27/12 7:39 AM
On the recent podcast Tuck linked to, that featured Tim Noakes, he [Noakes] postulated that some of us will do better as carb burners. 

Personally I feel I'm making a lot of progress this year just by running more, I'm close to sustaining plus 40 mile weeks with an excess of 5000 metres vertical per week.  I've added in a few speed sessions here and there and chose only a handful of races.  Diet is always in my mind, but I'm not to hung up on the amount of carbs I'm consuming.  While not a great deal I'll have to odd treat per week and I can't seem to resist chocolate. 

Another big change this year (again influenced by Noakes) is a dramatic decrease in the amount of water I'm drinking.  I believe he's firmly hit the nail on the head with this one.  The last two races I've done I was concious of this throughout and drank to thirst, I did not have the usual upset tummy that I normally have to deal with.  This approach really works.

I'll also add that I've done the majority of my training pre-breakfast and completed the recent Marathon du montcalm (Think Pikes Peak, but more vertical, slightly less altitude and harder trails) in 8hr 34 on one banana (pre-race) and 4 gels, with a few bits and bobs at aid stations.  I estiamated my total calorie intake to be around 5-600 absolute max. 

I think I might have run faster with a bit more in the tank pre race but it was an interesting experiment - zero bonk and only a slight feeling of hunger at the end of the race.  I pigged out on ice cream when I got home though ;)

I also ran the entire race shirtless in 34°C direct sun (much to the outrage of some of the frenchies) That's another thread though.