FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer

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FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Mike Hatalski 1/24/13 8:07 AM
Looks like it just launched on Kickstarter today:
DeltaMaker: An Elegant 3D Printer by DeltaMaker — Kickstarter


Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Erik Kastner 1/24/13 9:03 AM
**DISCLAIMER** My opinions do not necessarly represent those of my employer.

This looks pretty cool… I have one big nit and a few questions…

It would have been nice for them to acknowledge Johann / Rostock. They talk about the history of Delta bots (which our beloved printers actually *aren't* from what I understand), but no mention of the work that lead the way to this.

my questions are all nerdy technical ones :)… what electronics are they using? How's the hotend (and with bowden) working? PSU (seems to be hidden in the pictures)?

That said, this is really nice looking and I hope they do well!

On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:07 AM, Mike Hatalski <mike.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
Looks like it just launched on Kickstarter today:
DeltaMaker: An Elegant 3D Printer by DeltaMaker — Kickstarter


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Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer John Driggers 1/24/13 9:04 AM
Lofty goals - I think I'd wait for Ceberus - but it was a matter of time before a "commercial" Makerslide varient became available.  Heck, even Bart Dring is building one! :-)
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer JohnD 1/24/13 9:12 AM
Interesting design.  I assume you'll be running on the delta variant of Marlin that was developed by Johann Rocholl?

You might have heard of him, he's the guy that build the first delta printer to gain any measure of acceptance - you may have see videos of it printing the owl?

Would seem appropriate if his name appeared somewhere here - a little credit tossed his way costs you nothing and might gain you a bit of respect in the delta development community.


Regards,
john
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer JohnD 1/24/13 9:23 AM
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Erik Kastner 1/24/13 9:30 AM
Which one is that?
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Daniel - TriDPrinting.com 1/24/13 9:42 AM
My hat is off...   That looks like an exceptionally solid and attractive design, even if some of the details are hidden at the moment.

Hopefully they will do well.

Daniel - http://www.TriDPrinting.com/

Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Terence Tam | OpenBeamUSA.com 1/24/13 9:55 AM
Goal seems a little high to me, especially they have not mentioned anything about tooling up for parts.  Which brings me to the second question / gripe:  When you ask for this much money crowd sourcing, you really should try to do more than just a one off-limited run and do something that adds value back into the community.  The $30k that we (OpenBeam) asked for paid for a bunch of tooling and molds, and parts are still being made 10k+ at a time for the community.

Second gripe that comes with this of course, is that unless they massively scaled in a parallel manner *and* tooled for parts, there is no way they can deliver 200+ asssembled (and I assume tuned and tested printers) to ship by April.  It's now towards the end of January and funding closes in 35 days - and after that there is potentially a 4 week hold on funds.  And let's not forget that shipping is a real bitch!  


Shipping a fully calibrated 3D printer and have it be print without issues when the box gets through Fedex / UPS is no joke!  Do you know what's required to pass a Fedex drop test?  It's 6 drops on all vulnerable configurations onto concrete from 1 meter, followed by a 45 degree knife edge intrusion test.  This isn't something that you can pack in bubble wrap and call it good.

I don't plan on putting my kickstarter out for a while (until I get some SOLID test data back on the long term viability of the design), but I'll be watching this with great interest.    

-=- Terence
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Terence Tam | OpenBeamUSA.com 1/24/13 9:59 AM
They are using belts, don't know what variety but you can see that the installation isn't that great (look closely at the way the belt angles are).  The rods appear to be aluminum rods and an igus bearing.  My guess is they tapped the end of the rod left and right handed thread and made giant turnbuckles.

And yes, some acknowledgement (and royalty) would go a long way to gaining some respect in my eyes.  I get that Johann is probably comfortably compensated at his day job, but they are building on the shoulders of multiple giants and some sort of royalty / pay it forward wouldn't break their bank.  (Slic3r development, firmware development, etc)

-=- Terence
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Dennis 1/24/13 10:54 AM
It did not look to me like they would need to tool much.  They are building out of OTS parts for the most part from the looks of it.  Perhaps some CNC brackets and the corner pieces (which are FDM printed in the photos).  It is hard to see the actual working guts from their pictures -- they did a nice job hiding stuff.  It looks like they could easily increase the build size with longer extrusions and belts -- I am most interested in 12" Dia x 12+ tall.  Once you get beyond selling out their first few reward levels, the price seems high for something that could be kitted by those in this group in low volume.  There are some awesome machines available in the $1500-$2000 range.  At the $500 - $800 range, they stand a chance of attracting a lot of pledgers to make their goal.  They would need 120+ pledgers at the $800 level.

Lots of technical questions, and proving of quality needs to be done.

The group here is very innovative.  I would expect the best low cost designs to evolve here for DIY.  
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer SeeMeCNC 1/24/13 3:44 PM
Hmmmm, really interesting
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Shai 1/24/13 6:39 PM
It looks like with all those tiers and pledge levels, that they're really trying to squeeze money out of people. Educational pricing, kickstarter pricing, multiple "early supporters". 
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Shane Graber 1/24/13 6:51 PM
Notice that not one of those levels is a kit either. They're all fully assembled.  They also mention that they built it on an open source toolchain, but I don't see anywhere in there that the printer they are offering is/will be open source.

Shane


On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 9:39 PM, Shai <shai...@gmail.com> wrote:
It looks like with all those tiers and pledge levels, that they're really trying to squeeze money out of people. Educational pricing, kickstarter pricing, multiple "early supporters". 

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Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer David S 1/25/13 8:40 AM
They added a nod to some of the people that paved the way for them.
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Shai 1/25/13 8:45 AM
Is it just me, or did anyone else notice that their arms are too long and they could've made them shorter to gain build hight? is there a reason for this?
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer David S 1/25/13 8:48 AM
Also, why hasn't anyone moved the bottom further down to gain build height? What am I missing?
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer JohnD 1/25/13 8:50 AM
Loads of us have - the issue then become stabilizing the frame - well, I guess more accurately I moved the top higher! :-)
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Dennis 1/25/13 10:54 AM
I noticed, but I was looking at it as an easy way to make a larger build diameter with just longer cross extrusions, then more build height with longer rail extrusions.  However, I am wondering if they made the KS version a smaller one to make it easier to ship assembled units.
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer James Armstrong 1/28/13 5:08 AM
Made Engadgets page.

http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/28/insert-coin-deltamaker-fuses-razzle-dazzle-with-3d-printing/
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Grabercars 1/28/13 10:22 AM
It also made GizMag this morning:

http://www.gizmag.com/deltamaker-3d-printer/25983/
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer JohnD 1/28/13 1:28 PM
Makes me wish I was in the US and had some spare time. ;P 
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer RPlasticPirate 1/30/13 7:31 PM
Yeah more advertising and credit to Johann and others is really needed. They are trying to run of with something they mostly didn't make at all and sound smart and make a buck on it. They will even succeed at it.
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Terence Tam | OpenBeamUSA.com 1/31/13 6:25 PM
The few things that annoyed me are: 

1)  They have not overtly stated that this is an Open Source Hardware design - it should be, since they are building on an Open Source tool chain, but they have not stated that they will release their source / CAD files or answered John Oly's question on source release.  This is an even more glaring issue since they failed completely to acknowledge the deltabot community at large at the beginning.

2)  Given the cost difference between all the tiers, kicking a few bucks towards royalties wouldn't break the bank  (To their credit, they did say that they would support financially Open Source project.  But what does that mean?  Does that mean they will buy from Bart for MakerSlide?  Or are they actively going to pay royalties?)    See: http://blog.makezine.com/2012/02/14/soapbox-the-unspoken-rules-of-open-source-hardware/.  I am a big believer in this, because otherwise the poor guys doing slic34 development would never get paid.  And when you're doing R&D work in , even when you donate your time there are very real costs associated with the work, buying filament, etc.

3)  It wouldn't cost them anything to drop in here to say hi and introduce themselves.  In fact, I have sent them an invitation to do so.  We'll see if they respond.

On a scheduling standpoint, I've been in product development for a while, and I don't think a March delivery date is realistic, to build, assemble and test that many printers.  They have mentioned "injection molding" out of a suitable material for the angle brackets - and injection molds are not short lead time items.  

*Shrug*.  My guess is that they will make the goal, but miss the delivery date.  Which is a pretty safe bet for a project at that funding level (early on, someone told me if a project made it to 35% of the funding target, 90% of the time it'll make it though).  Let's hope they will be good community members.

-=- Terence
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer RPlasticPirate 1/31/13 6:47 PM
I agree with most of what you say there and applaud you for making an effort. There is nothing worse than companies swooping in and trying to make big bucks without significantly proportionally help the open source crowd who they build on via royalties  open R'n'D or what not like IBM, Sun and such have done for decades.

Actually below 10.000 units there is now specialty companies with less than 1-2 weeks lead time and decent price I'm told. They have some limits but they use CNC machines for making molds and basically are the molding worlds answer to mass 3D Printing shops of our world.

I feel with engineers that are experienced with out a job being an engineer my self but I also feel that many engineers think its the very core of our profession to be above non-constructive money making and only focus on what can help others AND turn a profit. The governments and scientists of old started engineering universities to help solve societies problems thought application of technology not to copy business school graduates. We are suppose to be the people with most social conscious and know how! That even relates to day where a larger than average number of technical high-school kids from where I went to advanced social studies - over 40% on average choose to study engineering afterwards where there is also much teaching and action in that manner: most of the Danish advisory and/or controls for stuff like food was based at my engineering only university instead of say Copenhagen University that is much older and closer to the powers that be.

</late night rant end>
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Barton Dring 2/1/13 5:57 AM
Regarding open source...this one of their comments.

"We will fully support the open source software community, releasing any delta improvements we make. The hardware question is one we are still exploring and don't want to firmly rule anything out, but we have no plan to release the design in the immediate future."
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Grabercars 2/1/13 6:07 AM
The design is actually quite simple. Any number of us on this list could reverse engineer their frame assembly in a few hours. The motor mounts, belt drive, idler and tensioner are easily derived just from pictures and watching their video.

Not saying that I would want to, or am willing to, but there it is. It's a simple design. They have 3D printed their prototype parts.

:-D

Steve Graber


On 1 February 2013 06:57, Barton Dring <barton...@gmail.com> wrote:
Regarding open source...this one of their comments.

"We will fully support the open source software community, releasing any delta improvements we make. The hardware question is one we are still exploring and don't want to firmly rule anything out, but we have no plan to release the design in the immediate future."



On Thursday, January 31, 2013 8:47:19 PM UTC-6, RPlasticPirate wrote:
I agree with most of what you say there and applaud you for making an effort. There is nothing worse than companies swooping in and trying to make big bucks without significantly proportionally help the open source crowd who they build on via royalties  open R'n'D or what not like IBM, Sun and such have done for decades.

Actually below 10.000 units there is now specialty companies with less than 1-2 weeks lead time and decent price I'm told. They have some limits but they use CNC machines for making molds and basically are the molding worlds answer to mass 3D Printing shops of our world.

I feel with engineers that are experienced with out a job being an engineer my self but I also feel that many engineers think its the very core of our profession to be above non-constructive money making and only focus on what can help others AND turn a profit. The governments and scientists of old started engineering universities to help solve societies problems thought application of technology not to copy business school graduates. We are suppose to be the people with most social conscious and know how! That even relates to day where a larger than average number of technical high-school kids from where I went to advanced social studies - over 40% on average choose to study engineering afterwards where there is also much teaching and action in that manner: most of the Danish advisory and/or controls for stuff like food was based at my engineering only university instead of say Copenhagen University that is much older and closer to the powers that be.

</late night rant end>



On Friday, February 1, 2013 3:25:36 AM UTC+1, Terence Tam | OpenBeamUSA.com wrote:
The few things that annoyed me are: 

1)  They have not overtly stated that this is an Open Source Hardware design - it should be, since they are building on an Open Source tool chain, but they have not stated that they will release their source / CAD files or answered John Oly's question on source release.  This is an even more glaring issue since they failed completely to acknowledge the deltabot community at large at the beginning.

2)  Given the cost difference between all the tiers, kicking a few bucks towards royalties wouldn't break the bank  (To their credit, they did say that they would support financially Open Source project.  But what does that mean?  Does that mean they will buy from Bart for MakerSlide?  Or are they actively going to pay royalties?)    See: http://blog.makezine.com/2012/02/14/soapbox-the-unspoken-rules-of-open-source-hardware/.  I am a big believer in this, because otherwise the poor guys doing slic34 development would never get paid.  And when you're doing R&D work in , even when you donate your time there are very real costs associated with the work, buying filament, etc.

3)  It wouldn't cost them anything to drop in here to say hi and introduce themselves.  In fact, I have sent them an invitation to do so.  We'll see if they respond.

On a scheduling standpoint, I've been in product development for a while, and I don't think a March delivery date is realistic, to build, assemble and test that many printers.  They have mentioned "injection molding" out of a suitable material for the angle brackets - and injection molds are not short lead time items.  

*Shrug*.  My guess is that they will make the goal, but miss the delivery date.  Which is a pretty safe bet for a project at that funding level (early on, someone told me if a project made it to 35% of the funding target, 90% of the time it'll make it though).  Let's hope they will be good community members.

-=- Terence

On Wednesday, January 30, 2013 7:31:27 PM UTC-8, RPlasticPirate wrote:
Yeah more advertising and credit to Johann and others is really needed. They are trying to run of with something they mostly didn't make at all and sound smart and make a buck on it. They will even succeed at it.

On Thursday, January 24, 2013 5:07:07 PM UTC+1, Mike Hatalski wrote:
Looks like it just launched on Kickstarter today:
DeltaMaker: An Elegant 3D Printer by DeltaMaker — Kickstarter


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Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer John Pickens 2/1/13 6:27 AM
Unfortunately, the customers who aren't aware of the benefits of having the build files open for small manufacturer's products, are the very customers with the most to lose when they purchase a closed system like this.  The hackers, makers, and open hardware people who would derive and improve a machine like this will avoid it, and the customers who aren't capable of doing this will be stuck when problems occur.  Look at Replicator 2, for example.  Many problems, and much less development for improvements than the open Thing-O-Matic or Replicator 1.
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Terence Tam | OpenBeamUSA.com 2/1/13 10:08 AM
Well, that's just stealing then, right?  They didn't write (or contribute) to the firmware, they obviously didn't design the original Rostock, and even the design of the machine isn't that original.  Plus there are now numerous complaints about QU-BD hot end / extruder combos jamming on PLA, and look at what they are shipping.  

Maybe some community based education is in order.  A bunch of us did the same for Tangibot.  

-=- Terence


On Friday, February 1, 2013 5:57:47 AM UTC-8, Barton Dring wrote:
Regarding open source...this one of their comments.

"We will fully support the open source software community, releasing any delta improvements we make. The hardware question is one we are still exploring and don't want to firmly rule anything out, but we have no plan to release the design in the immediate future."



On Thursday, January 31, 2013 8:47:19 PM UTC-6, RPlasticPirate wrote:
I agree with most of what you say there and applaud you for making an effort. There is nothing worse than companies swooping in and trying to make big bucks without significantly proportionally help the open source crowd who they build on via royalties  open R'n'D or what not like IBM, Sun and such have done for decades.

Actually below 10.000 units there is now specialty companies with less than 1-2 weeks lead time and decent price I'm told. They have some limits but they use CNC machines for making molds and basically are the molding worlds answer to mass 3D Printing shops of our world.

I feel with engineers that are experienced with out a job being an engineer my self but I also feel that many engineers think its the very core of our profession to be above non-constructive money making and only focus on what can help others AND turn a profit. The governments and scientists of old started engineering universities to help solve societies problems thought application of technology not to copy business school graduates. We are suppose to be the people with most social conscious and know how! That even relates to day where a larger than average number of technical high-school kids from where I went to advanced social studies - over 40% on average choose to study engineering afterwards where there is also much teaching and action in that manner: most of the Danish advisory and/or controls for stuff like food was based at my engineering only university instead of say Copenhagen University that is much older and closer to the powers that be.

</late night rant end>



On Friday, February 1, 2013 3:25:36 AM UTC+1, Terence Tam | OpenBeamUSA.com wrote:
The few things that annoyed me are: 

1)  They have not overtly stated that this is an Open Source Hardware design - it should be, since they are building on an Open Source tool chain, but they have not stated that they will release their source / CAD files or answered John Oly's question on source release.  This is an even more glaring issue since they failed completely to acknowledge the deltabot community at large at the beginning.

2)  Given the cost difference between all the tiers, kicking a few bucks towards royalties wouldn't break the bank  (To their credit, they did say that they would support financially Open Source project.  But what does that mean?  Does that mean they will buy from Bart for MakerSlide?  Or are they actively going to pay royalties?)    See: http://blog.makezine.com/2012/02/14/soapbox-the-unspoken-rules-of-open-source-hardware/.  I am a big believer in this, because otherwise the poor guys doing slic34 development would never get paid.  And when you're doing R&D work in , even when you donate your time there are very real costs associated with the work, buying filament, etc.

3)  It wouldn't cost them anything to drop in here to say hi and introduce themselves.  In fact, I have sent them an invitation to do so.  We'll see if they respond.

On a scheduling standpoint, I've been in product development for a while, and I don't think a March delivery date is realistic, to build, assemble and test that many printers.  They have mentioned "injection molding" out of a suitable material for the angle brackets - and injection molds are not short lead time items.  

*Shrug*.  My guess is that they will make the goal, but miss the delivery date.  Which is a pretty safe bet for a project at that funding level (early on, someone told me if a project made it to 35% of the funding target, 90% of the time it'll make it though).  Let's hope they will be good community members.

-=- Terence

On Wednesday, January 30, 2013 7:31:27 PM UTC-8, RPlasticPirate wrote:
Yeah more advertising and credit to Johann and others is really needed. They are trying to run of with something they mostly didn't make at all and sound smart and make a buck on it. They will even succeed at it.

On Thursday, January 24, 2013 5:07:07 PM UTC+1, Mike Hatalski wrote:
Looks like it just launched on Kickstarter today:
DeltaMaker: An Elegant 3D Printer by DeltaMaker — Kickstarter


Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Shai 2/1/13 10:10 AM
I also read a bit about QU-BD extruders jamming. When I saw them in person at the NY maker faire this september, I gotta say.. they were pretty light and looked very nice and small. Does anyone know why they are prone to jam? Is it that they're not drilled/cnc'd properly?
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Al Billings 2/1/13 10:13 AM

Well, they should acknowledge their origins but how do you steal an open source design?

People are all about open source until someone takes their designs and does something they don't like... I'm not saying you're about this Terence but this really is the Tangibot thing (except that one really was clearly a clone that undercut things). If people design this stuff and offer it as freely available, can they then protest when someone sells it or does something that they don't like?
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Erik Kastner 2/1/13 10:18 AM
It depends on the licensing of various software/hardware bits
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Terence Tam | OpenBeamUSA.com 2/1/13 10:19 AM
I have a fundamental problem with people taking a community based design, and profiting from it, without giving back.  I would have no problem if they released the design, but since they've explicitly said that they aren't, this is wrong.

Maybe stealing is the wrong word, but this ain't right.  

-=- Terence
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Al Billings 2/1/13 10:22 AM
I'm not saying one should be ok with people building on another's work without acknowledging it. My point is that unless they are violating the terms of the open source license on which their work is based, our moral outrage really doesn't mean much and is, perhaps, inconsistent.

I mean, besides moral shaming and shunning, there isn't much to be done. This kind of thing is going to continue to happen.

I'm building a extruded cube printer right now (and still working on my Rostock Mini). I'm not creating this design from scratch but basing it on the work of the reprap community. Other than pointing to the work of others, there isn't anything to stop me from selling kits if I really wanted to do so.

You're a mensch for kicking back to the open source community in a financial way but, clearly, others aren't going to do it. We should just point out that they're not crediting folks (in a larger forum than this list) and convince people to not buy from them. There isn't much else to do.

(And, yes, I work in open source for a living so I do know how the licenses work...)

Al
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Dennis 2/1/13 11:01 AM
The only way you can charge "normal" retail markups to support 4+ people is to not give all your stuff away.  Otherwise the competition will see that there is money to be made and no investment in design effort needed to undercut you.  It is not the DIY open source community to fear, but the other commercial companies.  It is a dilemma for anyone wishing to make a business that is partially based on open source products.  They have a value add in providing assembled and tested bots that opens up a greater number of users to Delta 3D printers.  Instead of trying to make them fail because they are not giving away everything they come up with, help them to see the benefits of working closely with the community (as their R&D partner).
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Dennis 2/1/13 11:02 AM
If you read the DeltaMaker KS page, you will see that they are using the QU-BD hot end, but designed their own Bowden drive for the filament (not shown).  If it is a unique design not just an improvement on another, they are under no moral obligation to open source it.  
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Ted Milker 2/1/13 11:31 AM
On Friday, February 1, 2013 12:10:25 PM UTC-6, Shai wrote:
I also read a bit about QU-BD extruders jamming. When I saw them in person at the NY maker faire this september, I gotta say.. they were pretty light and looked very nice and small. Does anyone know why they are prone to jam? Is it that they're not drilled/cnc'd properly?

Issues with the original QU-BD(no idea what's fixed):

Minimal shoulder on nozzle(Goodbye nozzle if you accidentally drive it into the bed)
Unpolished nozzle interior
Stainless steel barrel instead of aluminum
Filament drive gear cut in wrong order, leading to minimum bite on filament
Grub screw pushing filament, poor design

Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Barton Dring 2/1/13 11:59 AM
Open Source

Most of the open source projects related to this are "share-alike" and "attribution", so there are some requirements.  IMHO....Meh....Whatever.  Let's see where it goes.  More Delta means more development in the area.

QU-BD

I have found them tricky to use with PLA.  They tend to jam with higher (> 1mm) retracts.  My speculation is melted material works it's way up out of the short melt zone and hardens.  Bowden systems generally need a bigger retracts to prevent oozing.  With that said, their PLA prints are large and they look good.

Bart
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Terence Tam | OpenBeamUSA.com 2/1/13 12:02 PM
Clarification:  I'm not trying to make them fail - noticed that I have not weighted in on the comments at all - and instead had opted to email them privately and inviting them to join in the discussion here.  I specifically did not want to be seen "bashing" the project.  I can't say I'm cheering them on at this point, because first impressions matter, and for reasons already stated in this thread they didn't leave me a good first impression, and they are not helping to improve it by refusing to release the design.

From a technical and schedule perspective, I have my doubts about the project, and I have privately conveyed these to the project creator as well.  Specifically, I don't see how they can tool up for injection molding and hit their March delivery dates.  From a customer expectation perspective, there is also a big difference between selling a kit and selling a completed (and presumably tested) machine.  I know how hard manufacturing is and shipping a configured and tuned 3D printer itself is no small endeavor.  

That being said, what you mention is a very real concern, on a larger scale, for Open Source hardware communities.  It's one thing when you are a diverse company (such as Adafruit or Sparkfun, with multiple products).  It's another thing when you only have one product (Makerbot, before they went closed source), or even to some extend, OpenBeam.  

With regards to innovation vs derivative work, this is a very good, separate discussion.  I was at OHSummit Sept of last year and it was pretty clear that a lot of the Open Source Hardware terms and licenses are still in flux.  Unlike software and the copyright that is associated with it, OSHW licensing is a whole different ball of wax.  It does not smell right for Deltamaker to not release their design seeing how it's mostly based around community developed ideas.  But I am not sure if you can prove a violation of OSHW licensing, and even if you can, I am not sure you can enforce it / force compliance.

Just my two cents,

-=- Terence
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Billy Zelsnack 2/1/13 12:39 PM
I think it is important to differentiate between what Tangibot tried to do and what these guys are doing. Tangibot was a blatant non-apologetic bragging clone. These guys took a concept and created their own implementation.

I would really like to know what people think what these guys owe and to whom? I mean literally assuming they contribute nothing back to the community.

1.How much do they owe Johann for his work showing the world that a linear delta is a practical motion platform for a 3d printer? 

2. How much do they owe the Marlin guys? How much do they owe Johann for his Marlin delta contributions? etc. Personally I think that nobody other than the maintainers/contributors of a project have any business deciding these questions.

This entire conversation reminds me of patents locking things up except worse because an "opensource community granted patent" is so damn nebulous and only enforceable via internet bullying.

Here are my feelings on the matter.
Johann definitely deserves some sort of acknowledgement for the next year or so. He didn't invent the linear delta, but he had the vision and wherewithal to make it work as a 3d printer. That was the value not necessarily the release of the rostock files.
As for the "license fee" to use the various software and firmware I think that can be easily solved by projects adding a suggested donation page for various activities involving the use of the project.

Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Terence Tam | OpenBeamUSA.com 2/1/13 12:51 PM
And meanwhile, on Amazon: 


Good point, Billy, about them taking a concept and creating their own implementation.  Like I said, I think it is a grey area whether they should be releasing the design.  FWIW, in another life, when we use Arduinos for prototyping, we do a clean room re-implementation of the firmware when we release a closed-source product.

-=- Terence
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer John Driggers 2/1/13 3:50 PM
So I guess I'm sorta on the fence with this one.  I think selling a product based on OpenSource Hardware and/or Software, and not giving credit to the creators is egregious. I think deciding to "close source" your variant is fine - you have a product you now own, and no one else is going to help you improve it - in the specific case of a delta 3D printer I think you are shortsighted if you chose to do so. Ethical?  Who knows.  OpenSource anything is a tricky business model.

I'm interested in watching this on.  I'm not "in the market" to buy someone else's build of a delta - particularity one that des not look like it brings anything new or innovative to the table.

I'm waiting for someone to make one that's simply beautiful, elegent, and simple - something I can put in the lobby and have people watch it print! :-) Milled aluminum - stuff I can't do for myself easily! ;-)
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Grabercars 2/1/13 6:28 PM


Hmmmmm. :-D  come to my tent, I have something to show you....

Grabercars

Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Johann 2/1/13 8:01 PM
On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 12:39 PM, Billy Zelsnack
<billy.z...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 1.How much do they owe Johann for his work showing the world that a linear
> delta is a practical motion platform for a 3d printer?

My deltabot designs are completely free and open, even for commercial
use. I'm just happy that more people are joining the delta movement.
The current DeltaMaker project description on Kickstarter gives credit
to my Rostock+Marlin prototype and even includes a link to the RepRap
wiki, that's good enough for me. I do appreciate the financial
kickbacks that I got from SeeMeCnc and OpenBeam, but I think that's
100% optional.

I'm using the GNU GPL for my OpenSCAD files, which requires that all
released improved versions must be free software. But this does not
apply here because the DeltaMaker folks designed their own frame parts
and carriages, and I don't mind if they want to keep their hardware
design closed for now. Actually I think it's pretty common for
Kickstarter projects to keep their source files closed until after the
end of the campaign.

Hopefully at some point they'll realize that they can still make a
profit and benefit from the community much more if they release their
design files on GitHub or Thingiverse and accept improvements from
their customers. Otherwise we'll just ignore them and keep making
improvements to other designs.

> 2. How much do they owe the Marlin guys? How much do they owe Johann for his
> Marlin delta contributions? etc. Personally I think that nobody other than
> the maintainers/contributors of a project have any business deciding these
> questions.

I agree, and I'm pretty sure that the Marlin developers (myself
included, even though my delta geometry hack is pretty small) have
zero expectations that a Kickstarter project should "owe" them
anything.

Marlin also uses the GNU GPL, so if DeltaMaker wanted to release an
improved version, that would have to be free software too. I would be
happy to consider Marlin source code pull requests on GitHub. But so
far it looks like they're just using my official Marlin deltabot
branch, which is totally fine with me.

Thanks,
Johann
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer julienM 2/3/13 6:45 AM
Hi guys,

 I asked that question on the Kickstarter about their plans to Open-source their design. As such I have no issue with them not going open-source on the hardware, it just felt like the wording was designed to obfuscate their intentions by mentioning open-source everywhere. Having built more than one printer and living in Europe, I wasn't a potential costumer anyway, but an early set of plans could have been a nice reward tier.

My question is however, what liabilities exist if I were to design a printer they deemed too similar to theirs? It would be a derivative of Drew's Rostock Variant (http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:31889) with extruded aluminium for the top and bottom triangles. I backed the Open Rail KS more than 6 months ago, as well as the  European Makerslide project with this in the back of my mind. The thinking was, that the Open Rails would not have to go down the full length of the vertical bars. It would also be easier to connect normal 20*40 to the horizontal members. Because the materials are so similar it would look a bit like a reverse engineered version of the DeltaMaker.

I'm not worried about legal ramifications, I have real-life witnesses who I spoke to months ago about my ideas, but I would hate to create tensions in this community. This is also a bit of a wake-up call to publish ideas at a very early stage.

P.S. Johann and bdring, your work is very very inspirational, please keep up the good work.


On Thursday, January 24, 2013 5:07:07 PM UTC+1, Mike Hatalski wrote:
Looks like it just launched on Kickstarter today:
DeltaMaker: An Elegant 3D Printer by DeltaMaker — Kickstarter


Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Dennis 2/3/13 10:58 AM
With no more information than has been disclosed by the DeltaMaker team on KS (disclosure: I am currently a backer), you should not feel any discomfort in building your own version that looks similar to their picture.  It is rather the DM team that looks like a derivation of the open source designs I have seen here.  I was asking the Rostock Max team long ago why they did not go with the MakerSlide (answer was availability at the time).  I think it is a better choice for a larger build because 20x40 is going to be stiffer, and it gives a wider carriage rail spacing to reduce twisting.  The KS design is currently on the smaller size for a Delta in build volume and would not need the extra beef, but as the first in a series of products, they may very well have in mind a larger machine later with the same basic parts.  If it were me, that is what I would do.  To reverse engineer it, you would really need to have one to copy.  I dont think that is what you are talking about.  Inspired by their picture, is more like what you are talking about.  Go for it!
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Stephane Beaulieu 2/3/13 10:36 PM

Hi,  Just for fun and a way to learn OpenSCAD i started a couple of days ago to throw together this model from the pictures of the Deltamaker on Kickstarter.  For sure i did not reverse ingineered it, I just eyeballed the design.  Still need a couple of days of part time work on the model but it's a really good project to learn how to CAD stuff.  I over sized it to accomodate the Helios Print Bed but i think it's still not enough to get 200 mm x 200 mm print area.  The way it look on the pictures of the DeltaMaker Team it seem to have no more than 100mm of print area.

Right now I own a MendelMax 1.5 that i build with a couple of mod from other people on thingiverse.  This is my main printer and i really love the design and the stiffness of extruded alluminum.  I am using Repetier Host and Firmware (love this soft) with an Azteeg X3 controller and Helios prnt bed.  I start the build of a second printer to explore the H-Bot configuration and i was looking to build the Rostock mini to test delta.  When i saw this design on Kickstarter i really liked the idea of using extruded alluminum instead of plexy or wood to do the base and the top.

Tell me what you think of it, don't be too rude with me it's my first model. :-) and sorry for my poor english it's not my first language.

Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer JohnD 2/4/13 12:48 AM
I like it a lot! ;-)(
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Dennis 2/12/13 5:21 PM
Half way in, they have made their KS funding level.  Now they have upped the ante with this:

"Auto Calibration
A challenge for many 3D printer owners is keeping the machine calibrated. The build surface has to be exactly where your printer thinks it is. When you are laying down very thin layers of plastic, very slight errors can cause serious headaches. We do not want DeltaMaker users to deal with this issue. Our intent is to have an auto-calibration procedure that is handled by software every time you start a print. We have not mentioned this previously as we do not have a final solution implemented. However, this is number 1 on our must-have feature list, and we have every intention of shipping with this feature enabled."



On Thursday, January 24, 2013 11:07:07 AM UTC-5, Mike Hatalski wrote:
Looks like it just launched on Kickstarter today:
DeltaMaker: An Elegant 3D Printer by DeltaMaker — Kickstarter


Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Shai 2/12/13 5:27 PM
There's no way they'll achieve it. I personally don't buy all their stories and media hype. Especially considering that they're shipping third-party software (Repetier Host), then there's no way they'll be able to implement it. Thats just my opinion. Plus, if they're going forward with mold injection, is it really necessary to auto-calibrate it? All the parts are supposed to be precise fit. Is this still necessary?

They also added a $99 aluminum cnc pencil holder. Way over market price.
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Daniel - TriDPrinting.com 2/13/13 11:17 AM
Shai, the autocalibration seems to be entirely possible, and valuable regardless.  Printing the first layer accurately at 0.1 mm works better if the printer is calibrated to 0.05 mm or better. Even with molded parts, that's a tall order without autocalibration.

What will they use as the sensor...   That's the big question.

Daniel - http://www.TriDPrinting.com/

Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Dennis 2/13/13 12:08 PM
I think the big news here is that they promised to release open source software improvements (even if they don't release the hardware open source).  So the software methods would be available to all.  The sensor is up for grabs in the mean time.  How hard can a touch sensor be to make?  And who says it has to be automatically deployed (as opposed to a manual action before printing start)?
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Brad Hopper 2/13/13 2:07 PM
I don't really think those early levels are trying to squeeze money, instead I think the super earlybird prices attract more interest and drive the kickstarter to the "popular" section where others will see it. Actually, I haven't seen any way to browse the new arrivals on Kickstarter, Once you pick a segment like "technology" it seems to only be browse-able by staff picks, popular, recently funded and most funded. How does anyone see new entries anyway???

On Thursday, January 24, 2013 9:39:05 PM UTC-5, Shai wrote:
It looks like with all those tiers and pledge levels, that they're really trying to squeeze money out of people. Educational pricing, kickstarter pricing, multiple "early supporters". 
unk...@googlegroups.com 2/13/13 2:41 PM <This message has been deleted.>
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer JohnD 2/13/13 2:51 PM
It's a strategy, and one this is proven to work, even if it pisses people off.  I'm buying another printer at less than cost because the company want's to get the word out, so not unheard of..

On the auto-calibrate - it's doable, and it's doable in the .05mm level that we need done.  I'll bet on a laser sensor.  Incorporating this into the existing firmware is more challenging as there's simply not a lot of space left.

If they are telling the truth, and are going to hit their dates, they have already ordered all the parts....

On Wednesday, February 13, 2013 10:41:05 PM UTC, Shai wrote:
Brad no one said the early bird levels are trying to squeeze money, I completely agree that they're used to attract people and give it a head start. It's the higher tiers and the somewhat unreasonable reasons for which they chose the prices for them. I understand if you increase the price for additional/better features. But to structure your entire campaign with 5 or so tiers that are exactly the same but keep climbing prices is not productive. They're basically trying to aim at all levels of the market to squeeze all the juice out for lack of better words.

If they had any clue on how to do auto-calibration or even manual "auto" calibration, they would have stated it already in their updates. I personally don't think they'll be able to achieve it, but we'll see.
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer James Armstrong 2/13/13 3:35 PM
I spent a good 30 minutes the other day "trying" to look for good techno kickstarters to back, but like you could only see staff picks and funded. I would like a list like thingiverse by date that I can just look to see what is available without searching for specific keywords.
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Erik Kastner 2/13/13 5:52 PM
The best way to see all active projects for a category is to hit the "See more popular projects" link from that categories page. That will show you all projects in that category that are currently live (the sorting isn't ideal for consuming it as a feed of new projects, but they are all there).

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 6:35 PM, James Armstrong <armstro...@gmail.com> wrote:
I spent a good 30 minutes the other day "trying" to look for good techno kickstarters to back, but like you could only see staff picks and funded. I would like a list like thingiverse by date that I can just look to see what is available without searching for specific keywords.

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Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Dennis 2/14/13 9:36 AM
The DeltaMaker team has released an interesting update upping the ante again with a larger build area.  See the link for their update and build area diagram:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/deltamaker/deltamaker-an-elegant-3d-printer-0/posts

"To maximize the DeltaMaker’s capabilities, it really makes sense to go with a hexagon shaped build platform, rather than a round one. As such, we wanted to share with our backers what our anticipated final build envelope is going to be."

  • Longest Line: 11.5”
  • Largest Circle: 10” Diameter 
  • Largest Square: 7.3” x 7.3” 
  • Longest Rectangle: 10” x 5.7” 
  • Area: 86.6 square inches 
  • Volume: 950 cubic inches (at 11” tall).
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer John Olafson 2/15/13 6:55 PM
The prob. here I see guys is, you start allowing a "little" white lie kind of slip up in community/OpenSource slide because it'll make your printer look cooler, will only open the door the more people trying to sneak in and close the designs and all the good that it brings.  Let them get away with this, next month someone else will want to get away with an incrementally worse move, and so on etc...  ANd, to the comment about OS and charging etc..., we are managing to make it just fine,  and all our stuff is 100% published?  

I guess my biggest issue is, why does it take 4 engineers/college degrees to look at a picture, sketch it up, bundle it with Open source software, and brag about it?  That, is somewhat of a problem with me


On Thursday, January 24, 2013 11:07:07 AM UTC-5, Mike Hatalski wrote:
Looks like it just launched on Kickstarter today:
DeltaMaker: An Elegant 3D Printer by DeltaMaker — Kickstarter


Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Dennis 2/15/13 7:51 PM
John,

I don't understand what you are complaining about.  Could you be more specific.  What white lie are you talking about?  

Disclosure: I am currently an early backer, but it may not meet my needs.  I will see how it stacks up in the last week.
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer RPlasticPirate 2/16/13 10:14 PM
Yeah the part about being 4 people seems really weird. There is work for 2-3 people at the most unless they are massively redoing or developing. But sadly people who have little hands on experince which is less than a problem now in academic circles than say 50 year ago but still a real issue often does this as they fear getting their hands dirty. I hope they are not engineers as there is a reason why the degree is called poly-tech in latin around where I took one. Your suppose to do all the related parts if the project isn't bigger than this to really know it all. Also they should have the know how.
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Terence Tam | OpenBeamUSA.com 2/17/13 12:04 AM
I think they were a bit less than upfront about the nature of their company.  When they first launch, the community here called them out for not crediting where credit was sorely due, and I think in a lot of people's minds that set the tone of future discussions.  It took a few direct questions before they readily admit that their printer is not Open Source Hardware.  I think they realize how sensitive this topic is for a lot of people (and they would be f*cking stupid not to be reading this list at this point) and you can tell from their responses - or lack thereof on their comment page that they really would rather that the hard questions and arguments just go away.

They can spin and market however they want (or however their newly hired PR and Online Marketing firm wants - see: http://www.prweb.com/releases/prweb2013/2/prweb10413238.htm).  At the end of the day I don't see them contributing anything back to the community.  They are using the firmware because it's freely available, and it is "open sourced" because, well, they can't close source it.  They are using MakerSlide because frankly, for an extruded aluminum construction system / linear bearing system, there's not that many choices, and MakerSlide and OpenRail are the most reasonably priced options out there.  They are using QU-BD, because again, it's the lowest cost option - it's not like they can go call up Stratasys and buy print heads from them.  But beyond that no new intellectual property, ideas, designs, etc are being given back, that we can tell.  (Until they get bed levelling going and contribute the source code and such back, then I'll take my last comment back).  As people have pointed out it would be trivial to reverse engineer their design from posted pictures alone.  It is questionable at best what sort of protection that they can hope to gain - at best, they can maybe get a design patent, but even that would be hard to do with all the community derived designs floating around and design patents are notoriously easy to defeat.  The fact that they *won't* open source the design to gain some good will with the community is actually baffling to me.  But that's just me. 

As John D. pointed out, if they were to be able to deliver on time, they would have already froze the design, bought the parts, and have a manufacturing plan in place.  That's why people here generally don't believe that they can add wireless functionality or automated leveling in the time frame promised.  And let's not forget that there's quite a challenge involved in building machines so that they all come out identically at the end of the assembly line.  Are they assembling themselves?  Are they hiring workers?  Who  trains them?  The number of machines they have to build is actually quite daunting for a team of 4 engineers whose day job certainly doesn't involve sitting around on an assembly line doing the same task over and over again but the volume isn't high enough to justify hiring assemblers, writing the assembly instructions and training them.  I actually wouldn't want to be in their shoes.  

-=- Terence
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Rob Povey 2/17/13 11:49 AM
I think many of the manufacturing "startups" on kick starter have the same issues, even just putting a set of parts with instructions In a box is a lot more complicated logistically than people think.
I personally don't trust any manufacturing Kickstarter without a very limited number of production unit rewards, or without someone whose actually manufactured and shipped something running it.

On the open source front, I really don't think there is an issue, I don't see them violating any licenses, nor making a sales pitch based on the design being open. The licenses allow for people to build closed source devices based on open source components, if this wasn't the intent of the authors they should have picked a different license.

I find their blurb about 4 engineers annoying and irrelevant, but it's a sales pitch, they'll play up whatever they think makes the product more attractive.

My bigger concern with all these 3D printer Kickstarter's is the somewhat disengenious way the manufacturers  really don't explain the current state of the hardware and software, and what it takes to get a good quality print out of one. I suspect there are more than a few buyers never complete the machines, or never get a decent print out of their purchase.

Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Dennis 2/17/13 1:51 PM
Pirate,  They made it clear the they have 1 full time person, and 3 others with full time jobs that are part of the KickStarter team in their spare time (like most here).  
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Dennis 2/17/13 2:36 PM
Terence, Please don't take this the wrong way -- it is meant as a generic observation that applies to all (including myself).  I am just using your post as a topical jumping off point.  

The rhetorical question is, would you have viewed them differently and been more supportive (or cut them more slack), if they had chosen to build their machine out of OpenBeam parts instead of MakerSlide?  No answer needed, just think about it.

There is a subtile conflict of interest that happens to all of us when someone else can negatively impact our desires -- even more so if it impacts our wallet.  I have been there with my own products in the past.  

My attitude is one way when I am only doing something as a hobby and I am all altruistic about share and share alike.  Then my desires are community and collaboration and recognition to make my hobby more satisfying.  

My attitude takes on a different color when my investments in product tooling are at risk due to someone else beating me to the punch for getting their project announced before me (especially if I was waiting to get all the bugs out and they were just going for it, bugs and all).  Then I see them as unfairly luring away my potential customers (talking about limited size communities), before they even had a chance to see what I had to offer.  It could make the difference between a successful launch or a failed and expensive attempt.  It is very frustrating!  And it is even worse if they were taking my unprotected ideas that I shared and were using them to compete with me.

I have noticed that the harshest comments have come from those who may view them in this context.  I am not in this position, so I am perhaps more objective in my views at this point.  If they can pull off delivering a machine that can bring in additional enthusiasts to the space by putting together a set of parts (OS and unique), that are well debugged and deliver usable prints most of the time, then they are doing a service to this community.  If not, well that is a risk of any KS project.  The backer will have to decide if it is worth taking the risk.  They have pointed out that the engineering is not yet complete in all areas.  For hobby makers, the machines are probably never done, and we live with less than perfect solutions if we have some workaround we can use.  For delivering 100 or so of the same machine to customers that expect it to work out of the box, a lot more attention to the details must take place.  I would estimate that the actual engineering on the machine is 20% of the actual work it will take to deliver a robust product.  I wish them well, and a lot of luck -- they will need it.
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Terence Tam | OpenBeamUSA.com 2/17/13 3:21 PM
On Sunday, February 17, 2013 2:36:49 PM UTC-8, Dennis wrote:
Terence, Please don't take this the wrong way -- it is meant as a generic observation that applies to all (including myself).  I am just using your post as a topical jumping off point.  

The rhetorical question is, would you have viewed them differently and been more supportive (or cut them more slack), if they had chosen to build their machine out of OpenBeam parts instead of MakerSlide?  No answer needed, just think about it.

Nope!  Plenty of people build Kossels out of Misumi instead of OpenBeam extrusions.  In parts of the world where OpenBeam is not viable, I point people at Misumi.  My competitor (here in my same town) even sells them as "OpenBeam compatible".  The most I do is point out that at OpenBeam, we donate a portion of profits back into the community and Misumi or my competitor that sells clones doesn't.  People are free to make their own decisions based on these facts.  My servo and stepper motor brackets contains mounting holes for Makerbeam (now defunct) and MicroRAX.  They are direct competitors to OpenBeam.  My new, upcoming deltabot brackets even feature Misumi 2020 mounting holes, for those that want to build their machines out of Makerslide / Misumi.  This is because I actually care about about advancing the state of the art, and advancing the community as a whole - and with business, you win some and you lose some, that's just the nature of the game.  

There is a subtile conflict of interest that happens to all of us when someone else can negatively impact our desires -- even more so if it impacts our wallet.  I have been there with my own products in the past.  

And I'll point out I'm not John Eckering their campaign by "backing a buck to bitch" on their kickstarter campaign.  Yes, I roll my eyes everytime I see their ad come up on Facebook.  But that being said I have not done anything to sabotage their project or chances of success.  I merely express my own personal opinions here on this list and pointing out where I see them falling short.  I even fired off a private email to the project creator with some of the concerns (to which I've never gotten a reply, btw).  How is this a conflict of interest?
 
My attitude is one way when I am only doing something as a hobby and I am all altruistic about share and share alike.  Then my desires are community and collaboration and recognition to make my hobby more satisfying.  
My attitude takes on a different color when my investments in product tooling are at risk due to someone else beating me to the punch for getting their project announced before me (especially if I was waiting to get all the bugs out and they were just going for it, bugs and all).  Then I see them as unfairly luring away my potential customers (talking about limited size communities), before they even had a chance to see what I had to offer.  It could make the difference between a successful launch or a failed and expensive attempt.  It is very frustrating!  And it is even worse if they were taking my unprotected ideas that I shared and were using them to compete with me.

It is customary for Open Source companies to release designs and files only after their product has shipped.  OpenBeam did exactly this with our extrusion profile, so does plenty of 3D printer designs.  Maybe in time the Deltamaker team will weight the pros and cons and in time do what is best for them.  I already weighted in on the pros and cons of sharing the design from my perspective, so I will not repeat it here.
 
I have noticed that the harshest comments have come from those who may view them in this context.  I am not in this position, so I am perhaps more objective in my views at this point.  If they can pull off delivering a machine that can bring in additional enthusiasts to the space by putting together a set of parts (OS and unique), that are well debugged and deliver usable prints most of the time, then they are doing a service to this community.  If not, well that is a risk of any KS project.  The backer will have to decide if it is worth taking the risk.  They have pointed out that the engineering is not yet complete in all areas.  For hobby makers, the machines are probably never done, and we live with less than perfect solutions if we have some workaround we can use.  For delivering 100 or so of the same machine to customers that expect it to work out of the box, a lot more attention to the details must take place.  I would estimate that the actual engineering on the machine is 20% of the actual work it will take to deliver a robust product.  I wish them well, and a lot of luck -- they will need it.

Nit picking here:  If they can deliver a machine that works most of the time, they are delivering a service to *the Deltamaker community", and that's what you guys have already paid for.  If they failed at that, then they failed to deliver what they promised.  If they share what they did to get reliable machines, only then are they delivering a service to the Deltabot community - because the answer to "how do I get reliable prints from my Kossel" shouldn't just be "Buy a Deltamaker".  

It's also fair to ask what they plan to do to support the OSHW community, as they have claimed.  Are they paying for further firmware development?   When one of their buyers have issue with slicing, then what? 

You are absolutely correct in this instance.  When Tangibot went and produced a complete, unabashed knock off of Makerbot, most community *contributors* were in an uproar, while plenty of people (some of which had an axe to grind with Makerbot) cheered them on because of the cost "savings".  Generally people who contribute to the Open Source community give away their ideas and designs in hopes that it can be advanced / improved and given back to the community as well.  That's why I've pointed out that I don't see the Deltamaker team "giving back", but on the other hand I recognize that what they are doing is legal within today's open source hardware licensing.

That being said, you yourself point out that actual engineering is likely to be just 20% of the work required to deliver a robust product.  Are you believing and relying on blind faith that they have what it takes for the remaining 80%?  I mean, we have not really seen anything from them in any of the updates on how they plan on building and testing these machines, right?  

-=- Terence
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Dennis 2/17/13 5:13 PM
Terrence,  Thanks for engaging in the conversation both philosophical and personal.  My intent was to keep it on the philosophical level, but your personal perspectives add to it.  I have not been around this particular OS community for very long, so my questions and perspectives have likely been hashed out numerous times on these pages.

I have had these sort of experiences as a small time entrepreneur many times since the 1970's -- long before it was possible to build global communities and share instantly over the internet.  The world is changing rapidly -- and in a way that empowers the little guy.  Human nature does not change but it can be improved through self analysis and teaching by role models.  The OS communities that have sprung up recently give me hope that a more enlightened way of "constructive competition" may take hold in time.

To answer your question if I believe that the DeltaMaker team can deliver the extra 80% of the work that is not usually done here?  I believe that they do not fully know how much work it will really take.  Virtually every one of my projects to deliver a turnkey solution took much more work than I expected.  I would probably never have started any of them if I full knew what I was getting myself in for.  Such is the nature of an optimist.  However, I rose to the challenge every time and delivered what I envisioned.  I was proud of what I accomplished each time.  So, the short answer is yes, it is a good possibility that they will succeed if they are willing to make whatever personal sacrifices it takes to succeed, but it is more doubtful that they will fully succeed as quickly as they hope.  They may deliver some hardware that works good enough in the timeframe, but I expect it will take a LOT longer to have it work as well for the customer as they would like.  Many months (years?) of debug based on real world customer feedback.  IMHO, they are going to need to contribute to the software side of things to make it happen.
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer SeeMe Support 2/18/13 12:24 PM
Dennis, what I meant by the little white lie was, I see a lot of people saying "no biggie, we can copy that anyways" as the excuse for allowing them to slide past the fact that they derived their machine from one/many of the ones seen in/on this group.  I just think that if you let that little tid bit slip past for sake of more delta printers in the wild, what rules will you allow the next KS or Indy campaign slide by on?
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Al Billings 2/18/13 12:28 PM
I think you're misunderstanding a core part of open source. We don't get to control how the things we open source are used by others except as mandated by any licenses.
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Billy Zelsnack 2/18/13 12:38 PM
On Monday, February 18, 2013 2:24:44 PM UTC-6, SeeMe John wrote:
Dennis, what I meant by the little white lie was, I see a lot of people saying "no biggie, we can copy that anyways" as the excuse for allowing them to slide past the fact that they derived their machine from one/many of the ones seen in/on this group.  I just think that if you let that little tid bit slip past for sake of more delta printers in the wild, what rules will you allow the next KS or Indy campaign slide by on?

 If they did not use Rostock or other files then their project is not derived from another project.
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Dennis 2/18/13 12:44 PM
Yes, it was obvious that they were another variation on the many variations of Johann's machine seen here.  They needed to acknowledge that, and when called on it early on, they quickly did.  

I happen to believe that it is important for the OS community to create or discuss many variations on a theme -- to lock out rip-off corporations from trying to patent some obvious variation.  So, what is your issue at this point?
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer JohnD 2/18/13 12:58 PM
Be interesting to see what they use to make the motors move.
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Axel 2/18/13 1:23 PM
Yet another company to sell a deltabot.
http://www.qualup.com/spiderbot.eu/index.php/en/avantages.html
Nice video too.
They seem to ship pretty soon.
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Dennis 2/18/13 2:13 PM
Their FAQ says: "The prototype is using the Azteeg X3 controller"
They do not say if they are committed to using it in the production version though.  It probably depends on if they have problems with it and what is ready when they have to commit to a production order.
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer RPlasticPirate 2/18/13 2:41 PM
My bad
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer JohnD 2/18/13 3:27 PM
So one would then assume they are committed to open source software - which would mean it's a derivative.  Devils advocate here - they are using a third party RAMPS based controller running open source firmware relying on an  opensource toolchain sliding on opensource Makerslide.  I'll also bet you a beer it ships with a Chinese RAMPS or RUMBA controller.

So what they are bringing to the table is an assembled mechanical platform.  I'm not knocking them - they have given credit where it's due, and are welcome to the opensource bits they have glued together.  If I were looking for an assembled delta, they are about the only source out there.  If I were looking for a reliable, able to print out of the box 3D printer, I think I might be looking elsewhere.

By hey - more power to the folks who want to pay a premium to buy an assembled DeltaBot - and I hope they manage to get the parts in time to assemble, test, and ship in 40 days.
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Billy Zelsnack 2/18/13 4:44 PM
So one would then assume they are committed to open source software - which would mean it's a derivative.  Devils advocate here - they are using a third party RAMPS based controller running open source firmware relying on an  opensource toolchain sliding on opensource Makerslide.  I'll also bet you a beer it ships with a Chinese RAMPS or RUMBA controller. 


The RUMBA is an original design and they would likely be buying from the designer.
If they buy their Makerslide from Barton then they would be buying from the designer.
There are non-opensource slicing options.
I don't know of any non-opensource host options.
I don't know of any non-opensource firmware options.

The last two are where I am not sure where to draw the derivative line if they are shipping a ready to go machine. By the letter of the licenses they're fine I think, but beyond that in hand wavy feelings land I don't know.

Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Dennis 2/18/13 5:35 PM
John, You don't have to speculate.  I would be surprised if they go for the lowest price option for stuff.  Quality has got to weigh on them, since they will have to support and service what they sell.  Their initial campaign is about 100 printers.  Not a lot of leverage over volume pricing in those numbers.  

They stated that they would be using open source software, and that they would be contributing to the OS tool chain.  Here are some quotes from their KS comments page:

"Julien: We will fully support the open source software community, releasing any delta improvements we make. The hardware question is one we are still exploring and don't want to firmly rule anything out, but we have no plan to release the design in the immediate future."

"Cambo: We do not consider the entire project open source at this point, but we are not ruling it out in the future. From a software standpoint, we consider it fully open source and will share any improvements made. "

"We intend to develop a community and provide support through DeltaMaker.com. Our focus will be on selling assembled printers and providing the support our customers need."

Of course, it does not really matter if they are not releasing the hardware bits as OS.  Most of the hardware is already OS.  The few extra parts that are custom are not complicated and would be easy to measure and understand if someone wanted to make modified parts later.  

Not everyone is capable of figuring out, or has the time to learn, how to source and make everything they need in the mechanical, electronic, and software world.  Operating a 3D printer has enough challenges all by itself.  For those that can, and enjoy building their own tools, this is probably not the printer for them (unless they got in cheap at the beginning of the campaign).  For others, that extra support and handholding that they will bring to the table with an assembled and tested Delta printer may just make the difference between staying on the outside, or getting involved.  Knowing that there are 100 identical printers to yours, presents the opportunity for sharing tips and getting help for problems that may be design related, or just make it easier to diagnose a problem.  There is value in numbers for those who just want to print stuff.

I wish them well and hope that they can make 100 people happy with 3D printing as a start.  They did hit a brick wall at the current reward price level.  It is a good marketing feedback point to know what people think is a fair price for what they are offering at this point in the product design cycle -- vs the risks that have to be taken.  They are also reducing their risk by using so many OS parts.
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer George Hahn 2/18/13 11:18 PM
An excellent quote from Limor Fried's "The DIY Electronics Revolution" in Circuit Cellar's 25th Anniversary Issue:

"What I like about the future of electronics - and DIY electronics in particular - is that it's more than just about the physical bits. The OSH movement has a built-in cause: sharing knowledge. If we can all provide a little more value when we make something, we can develop more things by standing on each other's shoulders and make more engineers who share the same values."

She also recounts a story of a OSH project of hers that someone adapted into their Kickstarter. If anyone has CC25, I'd definitely recommend reading the article, it's great!

-

My opinion is that if it moves the community forward, it's good. If Deltamaker is going to contribute software improvements, great! Their hardware may go extinct, but their software contributions will live on. If they are met with great success - another win! We get more deltabots in the wild, and they throw a bunch of time and money at finding solutions that work. Even if they don't release their hardware designs, we'll be able to take their best ideas and make them work for our bots.

As I see it, it's a win-win-win. We get a larger community, they get some money, and other delta manufacturers get the benefits of greater awareness, OSH prestige (big selling point, at least for me), and Deltamaker's R&D.

(That'd all be different if this were a saturated market, but it's not, and it probably won't be for quite some time.)


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Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Dennis 2/19/13 5:50 AM
While we are on the subject of OSH #D printing, Wired di an article today about the state of still active 3D printing patents:

Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Dennis 2/22/13 11:30 AM
Hi all,

I put my toe in line for the first $799 DeltaMaker machine... I have learned the hard way that you pledge first and ask questions later in KickStarter campaigns, or you lose out.  I have decided that this bot is not going to meet my needs due to the small build volume.  I wanted to get at least a 12 inch diameter, and they have increased it some during the campaign, but not enough for me.  It is an assembled machine, which is worth more than the sum of its parts, but I would have to rebuild so much of it to extend the size, that the fact that it starts out assembled would not have value to me, so the cost ends up being less than the sum of the parts for me.  

I expect that once I remove my pledge, and that super cheap slot opens up again, it will be grabbed quickly.  The reason I am telling you all about it is because I found out about it here.  If some one would want to pledge for the $799 instead of the current $1599 slot, let me know and I will tell you when I pull my pledge.  KS does not release the slot immediately, it might take an hour or so, but they are not getting a lot of volume of visitors in this last week, there is a good chance that you could grab my slot if you know when to look.  I will leave this notice up for a day minimum, so people have a chance to see it and respond if there is any interest.

~Dennis


On Thursday, January 24, 2013 11:07:07 AM UTC-5, Mike Hatalski wrote:
Looks like it just launched on Kickstarter today:
DeltaMaker: An Elegant 3D Printer by DeltaMaker — Kickstarter


Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Dennis 2/25/13 6:02 PM
I returned it to the wild!  
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Sean Kennedy 2/26/13 10:24 AM
I too am a DeltaMaker backer but I am considering buying a Rostock Max instead.  Dennis is that what you are doing?

I only discovered this group and the Rostock Max through Kickstarter.  If it is equally good or better, I would prefer to suppor the originators and open source hardware.

My concern is my ability to put it together from kit form. I am worried that even if I get together, things may be "off" and my prints might not come out well or I will have other troubles.  Getting a pre-built machine appeals to me for this reason. On the other hand, if I thought it would come out well, I would like to put it together myself and understand it better.

Can anyone chime in with any advice for a newbie?  Is a Rostock Max or other Delta design appropriate for a first printer?

-Sean
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Caleb Buxton 2/26/13 11:02 AM
A pre-built machine doesn't eliminate the possibility of prints being off. There is tweaking to be done for each new spool or supplier of plastic.

I believe that self-sourced is exposed to much more tweaking risk than unassembled kit. With a kit, they should have gone through and updated the firmware to match the geometry they are shipping -- in which case much of the most complicated (not too complicated anyways) tweaking is taken care of.

Trust kits.

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Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Terence Tam | OpenBeamUSA.com 2/26/13 11:46 AM
Disclaimer:  I'm a tinkerer and a OSHW seller, take that into consideration when considering my advise.

I have a SeeMeCNC hot end and I can vouch for it - it is a nicely put together hot end.  I also have a QU-BD hot end (which is what the Deltamaker guys are shipping) and if one of my students had machined that part I would have sent him back to the machine shop.  Nothing on that heater block was square or true.  Our group at Metrix also had lots of issues with Qu-BD's hot ends jamming on 1.75 mm PLA filament, so there's some valid concerns about whether the DeltaMaker guys can deliver 100ish reliable printers and not have print issues.  (If there is a fix to this, we are not aware of it.  Certainly there are lots of unhappy QU-BD hot end owners out there right now on 1.75mm PLA filament).  

 Also, SeeMeCNC pays royalties toward Johann and the Slic3r folks for further development, which to me is important.  So take that advise into consideration

It always surprises me how resilient our machines are, and yet how hard it is to get a great print out of it.  I've had prints that came out usable on my loaner Prusa i2, but I'd realize that the heated bed had came loose and the extruder wiggles.  Meaning:  just about anything that you slap together that can move in X-Y-Z will produce a part.  How good that part look however, depends on the skills of the operator, the quality of the plastic, and other environmental variables.  A prebuilt machine is just a small part of that equation - and even prebuilt machines will require maintenance.  You will receive better support on the RostockMax here, for sure.  The road for you to get to a RostockMax may be longer, but you will learn a lot more, as you have noted.

One thing for sure though - because of the RostockMax's availability, you will be up and running and printing with it earlier than you would with a DeltaMaker.

-=- Terence
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Caleb Buxton 2/26/13 11:56 AM
I can add 2nd hand disaster re: Qu-BD. A member of my local 3d printer group has inventory of 10 prusa i2 derivatives that he is unwilling to sell because he has a matching 10 Qu-BD's which he doesn't trust... because of repeated failures.

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Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Dennis 2/26/13 12:13 PM
Sean, I had seen the Rostok Max first when it was on Indiegogo.  It was very late in the campaign, the $ were higher and I was not sure if it would meet my needs.  It was ended up being an 11 inch print diameter, and I wanted 12.  I was also not in a big hurry, so I decided to wait and learn more about 3D printers and the Deltas when I found this site.  However, when someone I knew was looking for a 3D printer at a reasonable price that could do over 9 inch diameter, I told him to go get the Rostock Max kit as the best thing out there at the time.  He did buy it.  I was not afraid to recommend a kit, since I knew he was handy with mechanical stuff.

When the DeltaMaker started up their KS, I saw the potential in their longer arms in the prototype and thought it meant that they were designing to support a larger diameter than the starting spec.  I pledged, but let them know that I would pull out in the last week if after they revealed more of the specifications, if it did not meet my goals.  I supported their campaign (and still do at a minimal level), but try as I may, I could not convince them to commit to supporting a 12 inch model without me redesigning it myself -- I figured I might as well get a kit if that was the case.  I have designed various homemade bots and controllers software before, so I am not concerned about my ability to get a kit together, or even a scratch built frankenbot.  And just to push me over the line to pulling my pledge, my wife informed me that her cooktop had broken and she needed to spend all my KS pledge money on a new one this month... Ouch!  The 3D printer can wait, but breakfast can't!  LOL

So, if you are confident you your ability to build Ikea furniture, and plug in all the stereo cables in the right place,  you can probably successfully build a Rostock Max kit.  If you are not sure you can do it, but want to learn, then why not take the challenge.  However, if you just want to get a 3D Delta for making prints, and want someone else to take the responsibility to build and calibrate it the first time, and want to have a community of 100 other identical units, then the DeltaMaker seems like a reasonable machine to have.  It also partially depends on how much you had to pledge for it.  It was hard for me to let it go, because I got in early at the $799 level.  That was an assembled unit for less than a Rostock Max kit.  But if you are in at the $1599 level, then it is not so clear cut.  For paying for a machine that has not completed the design yet, and may have design delays -- I suspect that they will have to do some redesign on the hot end or extruder, I want to get a big discount.

After hanging out here for a couple of months, I see a lot of innovation.  I think I will hang back until I see the optimal design or combination of designs for my projected future needs.  If someone here puts together a sweet kit, I would seriously consider making the leap sooner rather than later.

Hope my rambling helps you decide what to do.

~Dennis
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer heyarn 2/26/13 12:35 PM
Sean, 

My 1st printer build is the Original rostock. At first I was very worried about building it myself, and the chance of failing. Now I realize that I was worried for no reason.  I think the biggest value in building your own rostock or kossel is that there are a lot of awesome people here on the forum that are very helpful and give great advise and guidance. They reply very fast, like really fast. Sometimes I get an answer even before I ask the question.

That said, you will still need some skills to put the machine together
soldering
stripping a wire
accurately measuring stuff (like with a ruler or caliper)
compiling arduino code (which you can learn from a mound of youtube tutorials)

If you have most these skills, I would highly recommend you building your own printer. I was able to make my kossel spending only about $500 on my printer. If you have the patience to source your own parts, you should definitely consider the kossel. Do not be worried about not getting help. :)



Arn
Re: FYI on Kickstarter: DeltaMaker -- MakerSlide based delta 3D printer Sean Kennedy 2/26/13 12:58 PM
Thank you everyone for the responses!  I had separately sent a question directly to John Oly at SeeMeCNC and he got back to me right away. 

I think I am going to take the plunge and cancel my Kickstarter pledge and go with a Rostock Max.  Looking forward to the challenge and my first 3D printer!

-Sean


On Thursday, January 24, 2013 11:07:07 AM UTC-5, Mike Hatalski wrote:
Looks like it just launched on Kickstarter today:
DeltaMaker: An Elegant 3D Printer by DeltaMaker — Kickstarter


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