10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux

Showing 1-59 of 59 messages
10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux High Plains Thumper 9/13/10 11:47 PM
On http://www.ernieball.com/history

Go to Year 2000, scroll to the picture of Bill Gates in a crossed out
red circle.  It states,

[quote]
2000, the Business Software Alliance conducted a raid and subsequent
audit at the San Luis Obispo, Calif.-based factory that turned up a few
dozen unlicensed copies of programs. Ball settled for $65,000, plus
$35,000 in legal fees. But by then, the BSA, a trade group that helps
enforce copyrights and licensing provisions for major business software
makers, had put the company on the evening news and featured it in
regional ads warning other businesses to monitor their software
licenses. Sterling Ball told his IT department he wanted Microsoft
products out of his business within six months. The transition was a
breeze, and since then he's been happy to extol the virtues of
open-source software to anyone who asks. View the Full Story at
http://news.cnet.com/2008-1082_3-5065859.html?tag=lh
[/quote]

Sterling Ball's statements still hold true in the Full Story.

[quote]
How has the transition gone?

It's the funniest thing--we're using it for e-mail client/server,
spreadsheets and word processing. It's like working in Windows. One of
the analysts said it costs $1,250 per person to change over to open
source. It wasn't anywhere near that for us. I'm reluctant to give
actual numbers. I can give any number I want to support my position, and
so can the other guy. But I'll tell you, I'm not paying any per-seat
license. I'm not buying any new computers. When we need something, we
have white box systems we put together ourselves. It doesn't need to be
much of a system for most of what we do.

But there's a real argument now about total cost of ownership, once you
start adding up service, support, etc.

What support? I'm not making calls to Red Hat; I don't need to. I think
that's propaganda...What about the cost of dealing with a virus? We
don't have 'em. How about when we do have a problem, you don't have to
send some guy to a corner of the building to find out what's going
on--he never leaves his desk, because everything's server-based. There's
no doubt that what I'm doing is cheaper to operate. The analyst guys can
say whatever they want.

The other thing is that if you look at productivity. If you put a bunch
of stuff on people's desktops they don't need to do their job, chances
are they're going to use it. I don't have that problem. If all you need
is word processing, that's all you're going to have on your desktop, a
word processor. It's not going to have Paint or PowerPoint. I tell you
what, our hits to eBay went down greatly when not everybody had a Web
browser. For somebody whose job is filling out forms all day, invoicing
and exporting, why do they need a Web browser? The idea that if you have
2,000 terminals they all have to have a Web browser, that's crazy. It
just creates distractions.

[...]

Ernie Ball is pretty much known as a musician's buddy. How does it feel
to be a technology guru, as well?

The myth has been built so big that you can't survive without Microsoft.
I think it's great for me to be a technology influence. It shows how
ridiculous it is that I can get press because I switched to OpenOffice.
And the reason why is because the myth has been built so big that you
can't survive without Microsoft, so that somebody who does get by
without Microsoft is a story.

It's just software. You have to figure out what you need to do within
your organization and then get the right stuff for that. And we're not a
backwards organization. We're progressive; we've won communications and
design awards...The fact that I'm not sending my e-mail through Outlook
doesn't hinder us. It's just kind of funny. I'm speaking to a
standing-room-only audience at a major technology show because I use a
different piece of software--that's hysterical.
[/quote]

Read more: http://news.cnet.com/2008-1082_3-5065859.html

--
HPT

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux TomB 9/14/10 1:37 AM
On 2010-09-14, the following emerged from the brain of High Plains Thumper:

>
> [...]
>
> Ernie Ball is pretty much known as a musician's buddy. How does it feel
> to be a technology guru, as well?
>
> The myth has been built so big that you can't survive without Microsoft.
> I think it's great for me to be a technology influence. It shows how
> ridiculous it is that I can get press because I switched to OpenOffice.
> And the reason why is because the myth has been built so big that you
> can't survive without Microsoft, so that somebody who does get by
> without Microsoft is a story.
>
> It's just software. You have to figure out what you need to do within
> your organization and then get the right stuff for that. And we're not a
> backwards organization. We're progressive; we've won communications and
> design awards...The fact that I'm not sending my e-mail through Outlook
> doesn't hinder us. It's just kind of funny. I'm speaking to a
> standing-room-only audience at a major technology show because I use a
> different piece of software--that's hysterical.
> [/quote]

So true. Very well stated. The dependance on Microsoft is largely
artificial.

--
 07:24:56 up 54 min,  2 users,  load average: 0.01, 0.07, 0.11
I am son of Liarmutt.
Iedereen wil erop, maar ze is te stijl.
        ~ Walter Grootaers

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux Homer 9/14/10 3:15 AM
Verily I say unto thee, that High Plains Thumper spake thusly:

> Read more: http://news.cnet.com/2008-1082_3-5065859.html

I'm going to print that article, frame it, and hang it on the wall of my
shop. I'll also distribute copies of it at business seminars.

--
K.
http://slated.org

.----
| You can't make an omelet without building some bridges
| ... but don't count your bridges until they've hatched
`----

Fedora release 8 (Werewolf) on sky, running kernel 2.6.31.5
 11:14:48 up 9 days, 18:33,  1 user,  load average: 0.00, 0.01, 0.00

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux Chris Ahlstrom 9/14/10 3:36 AM
High Plains Thumper posted this message in ROT13 encoding:

> On http://www.ernieball.com/history
>
> Go to Year 2000, scroll to the picture of Bill Gates in a crossed out
> red circle.

   http://cdn.ernieball.com/history-img/280/screw_microsoft.jpg

> It states,
>
> [quote]
> 2000, the Business Software Alliance conducted a raid and subsequent
> audit at the San Luis Obispo, Calif.-based factory that turned up a few
> dozen unlicensed copies of programs. Ball settled for $65,000, plus
> $35,000 in legal fees. But by then, the BSA, a trade group that helps
> enforce copyrights and licensing provisions for major business software
> makers, had put the company on the evening news and featured it in
> regional ads warning other businesses to monitor their software
> licenses.

A variation on the Microsoft Smear®.  No wonder this was the result:

> Sterling Ball told his IT department he wanted Microsoft
> products out of his business within six months. The transition was a
> breeze, and since then he's been happy to extol the virtues of
> open-source software to anyone who asks. View the Full Story at
> http://news.cnet.com/2008-1082_3-5065859.html?tag=lh
> [/quote]
>
> The fact that I'm not sending my e-mail through Outlook
> doesn't hinder us. It's just kind of funny. I'm speaking to a
> standing-room-only audience at a major technology show because I use a
> different piece of software--that's hysterical.
> [/quote]
>
> Read more: http://news.cnet.com/2008-1082_3-5065859.html

--
If God wanted us to have a President, He would have sent us a candidate.
                -- Jerry Dreshfield

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux Chris Ahlstrom 9/14/10 3:40 AM
Homer posted this message in ROT13 encoding:

> Verily I say unto thee, that High Plains Thumper spake thusly:
>
>> Read more: http://news.cnet.com/2008-1082_3-5065859.html
>
> I'm going to print that article, frame it, and hang it on the wall of my
> shop. I'll also distribute copies of it at business seminars.

Interesting quote:

   The other thing is that if you look at productivity. If you put a bunch
   of stuff on people's desktops they don't need to do their job, chances
   are they're going to use it. I don't have that problem. If all you need
   is word processing, that's all you're going to have on your desktop, a
   word processor. It's not going to have Paint or PowerPoint. I tell you
   what, our hits to eBay went down greatly when not everybody had a Web
   browser. For somebody whose job is filling out forms all day, invoicing
   and exporting, why do they need a Web browser? The idea that if you have
   2,000 terminals they all have to have a Web browser, that's crazy. It
   just creates distractions.

Jeez, no iTunes?  How *barbaric*!  :-D

   You see, I'm not in this just to get free software. No. 1, I don't think
   there's any such thing as free software. I think there's a cost in
   implementing all of it. How much of a cost depends on whom you talk to.
   Microsoft and some analysts will tell you about all the support calls and
   service problems. That's hysterical.

--
When you're married to someone, they take you for granted ... when
you're living with someone it's fantastic ... they're so frightened
of losing you they've got to keep you satisfied all the time.
                -- Nell Dunn, "Poor Cow"

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux DFS 9/14/10 6:29 AM
On 9/14/2010 6:15 AM, Homer wrote:
> Verily I say unto thee, that High Plains Thumper spake thusly:
>
>> Read more: http://news.cnet.com/2008-1082_3-5065859.html
>
> I'm going to print that article, frame it, and hang it on the wall of my
> shop. I'll also distribute copies of it at business seminars.


10 years later and you guys are still hanging-on and bragging about an
80-seat switch to Linux?  (if it's even in place anymore - nobody here
knows for sure)

MS is doomed.

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux Hadron 9/14/10 6:35 AM
TomB <tommy.b...@gmail.com> writes:

> On 2010-09-14, the following emerged from the brain of High Plains Thumper:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> Ernie Ball is pretty much known as a musician's buddy. How does it feel
>> to be a technology guru, as well?
>>
>> The myth has been built so big that you can't survive without Microsoft.
>> I think it's great for me to be a technology influence. It shows how
>> ridiculous it is that I can get press because I switched to OpenOffice.
>> And the reason why is because the myth has been built so big that you
>> can't survive without Microsoft, so that somebody who does get by
>> without Microsoft is a story.
>>
>> It's just software. You have to figure out what you need to do within
>> your organization and then get the right stuff for that. And we're not a
>> backwards organization. We're progressive; we've won communications and
>> design awards...The fact that I'm not sending my e-mail through Outlook
>> doesn't hinder us. It's just kind of funny. I'm speaking to a
>> standing-room-only audience at a major technology show because I use a
>> different piece of software--that's hysterical.
>> [/quote]
>
> So true. Very well stated. The dependance on Microsoft is largely
> artificial.

Its not well said at all.

The dependence is on the apps. So yes, it is "just SW". The SW that
people use and need. Have you NO idea about the SW real companies use?
Hoe many bespoke apps etc there are? How hard it is to find GOOD
programmers who specialise in anything other than Windows APIs? And I
dont mean the 8 guys who work 7days a week for free making (now cross
platform for Windows too) stuff like Amarok or the amazing X-Moto.

I see you've gone to the dark side. I used to have hope for you.

As the "son of Little Roy" you have really lost it.

Little Roy Ahlstrom has clearly gone mad. He needs help. The sooner Big
Roy comes back and make room on his lap for Chris the better for
everyone.

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux Homer 9/14/10 9:47 AM
Verily I say unto thee, that Chris Ahlstrom spake thusly:

> Homer posted this message in ROT13 encoding:
>
>> Verily I say unto thee, that High Plains Thumper spake thusly:
>>
>>> Read more: http://news.cnet.com/2008-1082_3-5065859.html
>>
>> I'm going to print that article, frame it, and hang it on the wall
>> of my shop. I'll also distribute copies of it at business seminars.
>>
>
> Interesting quote:
>
> The other thing is that if you look at productivity. If you put a
> bunch of stuff on people's desktops they don't need to do their job,
> chances are they're going to use it. I don't have that problem. If
> all you need is word processing, that's all you're going to have on
> your desktop, a word processor. It's not going to have Paint or
> PowerPoint. I tell you what, our hits to eBay went down greatly when
> not everybody had a Web browser. For somebody whose job is filling
> out forms all day, invoicing and exporting, why do they need a Web
> browser? The idea that if you have 2,000 terminals they all have to
> have a Web browser, that's crazy. It just creates distractions.

I'm a firm believer in that principle too, which is why I use jstar
(Joe) instead of something like OpenOffice: the fewer distractions I
have, the more productive I am.

But, for me, the most interesting quote was this:

[quote]
We pass our old computers down. The guys in engineering need a new PC,
so they get one and we pass theirs on to somebody doing clerical work.
Well, if you don't wipe the hard drive on that PC, that's a violation.
[/quote]

It's licensing nonsense like that which makes proprietary software a
liability rather than an asset to companies.

And this:

[quote]


One of the analysts said it costs $1,250 per person to change over to
open source. It wasn't anywhere near that for us.

...

What support? I'm not making calls to Red Hat; I don't need to. I think
that's propaganda.

...

The myth has been built so big that you can't survive without Microsoft.
[/quote]

Yes, in general I think the supposed costs and difficulties associated
with migrating from Windows to Linux is largely just propaganda, and the
delays in doing so (e.g. Munich) are more a result of die-hard Microsoft
bigots dragging their heels, than any genuine difficulties.

Read this again:

http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/LiMux-project-management-We-were-naive-958824.html

Then ask yourself why it /really/ took Munich 7 years to migrate 15,000
computers to Linux. With a small team of technicians and engineers, I
could have done that in less than six months, even allowing for complete
re-engineering of otherwise "irreplaceable" proprietary components, and
I guarantee I would have come well under the budget Munich wasted, as
they stood around bitching and scratching their balls. Any company
claiming that isn't possible is simply lying (or incompetent).

--
K.
http://slated.org

.----
| You can't make an omelet without building some bridges
| ... but don't count your bridges until they've hatched
`----

Fedora release 8 (Werewolf) on sky, running kernel 2.6.31.5
 17:47:12 up 10 days,  1:05,  0 users,  load average: 0.01, 0.03, 0.00

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux JEDIDIAH 9/14/10 9:12 AM

...oh. If you have "bespoke" programs then Windows is the least of your worries.

   Of course Hadron is always the true Windows Lemming...

--

   Apple: Power users are not welcome here.                             |||
                                                                       / | \

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux DFS 9/14/10 10:19 AM

How else except via licensing are proprietary developers going to get
paid to build their excellent software?

You sure as shit demanded to be paid for working on proprietary software.

> The myth has been built so big that you can't survive without Microsoft.
> [/quote]
>
> Yes, in general I think the supposed costs and difficulties associated
> with migrating from Windows to Linux is largely just propaganda, and the
> delays in doing so (e.g. Munich) are more a result of die-hard Microsoft
> bigots dragging their heels, than any genuine difficulties.


Idiot.

Who's going to open and review/fix the billions of MS Office documents
that get changed - if not outright corrupted - by OpenOffice.  If OO can
even read them in the first place.

Who's going to rewrite the 15 still-in-production
Access/Excel/Oracle/SQL Server apps I spent years on?  (and I'm just one
guy)


> Read this again:
>
> http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/LiMux-project-management-We-were-naive-958824.html
>
> Then ask yourself why it /really/ took Munich 7 years to migrate 15,000
> computers to Linux.

10 years before it's all done.

> With a small team of technicians and engineers, I
> could have done that in less than six months, even allowing for complete
> re-engineering of otherwise "irreplaceable" proprietary components, and
> I guarantee I would have come well under the budget Munich wasted, as
> they stood around bitching and scratching their balls. Any company
> claiming that isn't possible is simply lying (or incompetent).


Before you complete a $35 million, 14,000-seat Linux migration in 6
months, maybe you should make a 10-seat Linux internet cafe work.

I wish *to hell* we could see you attempt such a thing as leading this
huge Munich migration.  Your fall-face-down failure and subsequent
firing would provide us cola fodder for years!

Another deluded, braggadocious Linux moron named Jim claimed he could
"unseat Windows in less than 5 years with a handful of Linux volunteer
developers"

heh!


Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux Hadron 9/14/10 10:30 AM
DFS <nospam@dfs_.com> writes:

The Daddy of them all, Ian "Legend in own lunchtime" Hilliard, claimed
he designs,implements and tests all his projects BEFORE they select a
target OS! Not only that but his projects are ALWAYS on time because he
correctly schedules for ALL eventualities. When pressed on how he
scheduled for his entire development team sodding off for a better paid
job working for someone who wasn't such a big head he scuttled off and
hid under a rock.

The great majority of COLA "advocates" clearly have ZERO idea about the
realities outside of their Mom's basement.

There was a great thread in the Ubuntu group started by someone bragging
how he ported all their users to Linux ... they had a cross platform
app. Fair enough. When I pestered him about what OTHER apps the users
needed in the day and which Linux equivalents they used he weedled on
about "not having ascertained those needs yet". When I pointed out that
it was surely better to have figured what OTHER apps they need in their
day to day job and to then move a select test group over to see how it
went a few COLA "advocates" appeared and suggested I was dissing a
"successful" Linux migration. When he finally admitted someone was
having trouble with their sound card, and you will LOVE this, Creepy
Chris Ahlstrom popped up, all concerned and sage, and asked if it was
appropriate for his "users" to be listening to music on company time
anyway .....

Can you believe that?!?!?!?!? I blushed crimson for him.

Anyway when asked about the cross platform app they had developed he
couldn't tell us. Top secret ....

unk...@googlegroups.com 9/14/10 10:41 AM <This message has been deleted.>
Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux chrisv 9/14/10 10:43 AM
JEDIDIAH wrote:

> Hadron quacked:


>>
>> How hard it is to find GOOD
>> programmers who specialise in anything other than Windows APIs?

Believe it or not, shithead, only a minority of the world's
programmers specialize in your beloved Windows.

Sheesh, take a look around, sometime, Larry!

>  Of course Hadron is always the true Windows Lemming...

Until death.  Even if he were to be layed-off, his hatred for FOSS
would live-on.

In fact, he'd probably blame FOSS for his downfall, causing his hatred
to burn even brighter (if that's possible).

--
"And there in a nutshell we see how Desktop linux is going nowhere
fast. People who need income are terrified a freetard will simply
steal all their hard work and give it away."  -  "True Linux advocate"
Hadron Quark

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux Hadron 9/14/10 11:19 AM
Moshe Goldfarb <moshe_...@yahoo.com> writes:

> On Tue, 14 Sep 2010 09:29:39 -0400, DFS <nospam@dfs_.com> wrote:


>
>>On 9/14/2010 6:15 AM, Homer wrote:
>>> Verily I say unto thee, that High Plains Thumper spake thusly:
>>>
>>>> Read more: http://news.cnet.com/2008-1082_3-5065859.html
>>>
>>> I'm going to print that article, frame it, and hang it on the wall of my
>>> shop. I'll also distribute copies of it at business seminars.
>>
>>
>>10 years later and you guys are still hanging-on and bragging about an
>>80-seat switch to Linux?  (if it's even in place anymore - nobody here
>>knows for sure)
>>
>>MS is doomed.
>
> Can't wait till they bring up the geriatrics in "Lardo" Florida
> again......
>
> I wonder how many of them are still alive?
>
> Do you have that list of Linux migration failures?
> Would be interesting to see how many Linux migrations tanked.

Didn't some FOSS "advocate" legend also install 4 Ubuntu systems in the
local library? I'm sure I recall someone telling us about that .....


Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux JeffM 9/14/10 11:48 AM
Homer quoted High Plains Thumper's item:
>:One of the analysts said it costs $1,250 per person

>:to change over to open source. It wasn't anywhere near that for us.
>:...
>:What support? I'm not making calls to Red Hat; I don't need to.
>:I think that's propaganda.
>
Those caught my eye as well.

>Read this again:
>http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/LiMux-project-management-We-were-naive-958824.html
>
>Then ask yourself why it /really/ took Munich 7 years
>to migrate 15,000 computers to Linux.
>With a small team of technicians and engineers,
>I could have done that in less than six months
>
"Forget Munich's Linux Migration, It's Already Done by Extremadura"
http://www.osnews.com/story/12611
:So Munich is receiving all the press
:about their careful and detailed migration to Linux on the desktop
:and here comes one of the poorest region in Europe
:showing that this can be simply done during a weekend.
:...
:In total they now have some 80000 desktop PCs running Linux.

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux TomB 9/14/10 12:25 PM
On 2010-09-14, the following emerged from the brain of Hadron:

Yeah, 'cause Ernie Ball isn't a 'real company', right? What would they
know about the software needs of 'real companies'.

> Hoe many bespoke apps etc there are? How hard it is to find GOOD
> programmers who specialise in anything other than Windows APIs?

Yeah, because good programmers only specialize in 'Windows APIs'.

<snip needless insults>

--
 20:35:48 up 14:05,  9 users,  load average: 0.39, 0.24, 0.18


I am son of Liarmutt.
Women need a reason to have sex. Men just need a place.
        ~ Billy Crystal

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux Snit 9/14/10 12:59 PM
TomB stated in post 201009142...@usenet.drumscum.be on 9/14/10 12:25
PM:

Large corporations likely can migrate to Linux more easily than the general
user - they typically have fewer programs to work with and have programmers
to make specialized programs when needed.  Of course, this need not apply to
all workers - I am talking the general "grunts" who type messages, send
emails, surf the web for info, etc.  Then again, for many people in these
large companies, they likely would be served *better* by software that is
made to be easier to use: MS Office compared to OpenOffice (or iWork
compared to OpenOffice, though iWork is not as full featured as is MS
Office), etc.

--
"Incest IS sex by the very definition of the words. Therefore they ARE
identical when presented in that order." -- Tim Adams

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux Chris Ahlstrom 9/14/10 1:07 PM
Hadron posted this message in ROT13 encoding:

> I see you've gone to the dark side. I used to have hope for you.
>
> As the "son of Little Roy" you have really lost it.
>
> Little Roy Ahlstrom has clearly gone mad. He needs help. The sooner Big
> Roy comes back and make room on his lap for Chris the better for
> everyone.

Oh, this just keeps getting funnier and funnier.

*laughing*

--
Man who falls in blast furnace is certain to feel overwrought.

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux Clogwog 9/14/10 1:08 PM
"chrisv" <chrisv@nospam.invalid> schreef in bericht
news:recv86td8r7kn51pmu7e02m5pcklc6avt2@4ax.com...

> JEDIDIAH wrote:
>
>> Hadron quacked:
>>>
>>> How hard it is to find GOOD
>>> programmers who specialise in anything other than Windows APIs?
>
> Believe it or not, shithead, only a minority of the world's
> programmers specialize in your beloved Windows.

lol ! Ask your master Kohltard, who sails a seaworthy yacht from his beloved
Windows programming!
Ask Ahlstom, who bought a beautifull house of his beloved Windows
programming!
http://bit.ly/bDlGW4

>
> Sheesh, take a look around, sometime, Larry!
>
>>  Of course Hadron is always the true Windows Lemming...
>
> Until death.  Even if he were to be layed-off, his hatred for FOSS
> would live-on.
>
> In fact, he'd probably blame FOSS for his downfall, causing his hatred
> to burn even brighter (if that's possible).
>
> --
> "And there in a nutshell we see how Desktop linux is going nowhere
> fast. People who need income are terrified a freetard will simply
> steal all their hard work and give it away."  -  "True Linux advocate"
> Hadron Quark


Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux One Shot, One Kill 9/14/10 1:30 PM

"chrisv" <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:recv86td8r7kn51pmu7e02m5pcklc6avt2@4ax.com...


nobody cares what a stupid fscking asshole like you thinks.


Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux DFS 9/14/10 3:36 PM
On 9/14/2010 2:19 PM, Hadron wrote:

> Didn't some FOSS "advocate" legend also install 4 Ubuntu systems in the
> local library? I'm sure I recall someone telling us about that .....


DING! DING! DING!


Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux High Plains Thumper 9/15/10 1:35 AM
Homer wrote:
> High Plains Thumper spake thusly:
>
>> Read more: http://news.cnet.com/2008-1082_3-5065859.html
>
> I'm going to print that article, frame it, and hang it on the wall of
> my shop. I'll also distribute copies of it at business seminars.

Yes, the simple truth is amazing, isn't it?  A business can not just
survive, but thrive using Linux and applications running under Linux.
That Microsoft is a must do formula for success is a lie.

--
HPT

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux Kelsey Bjarnason 9/16/10 4:50 AM
[snips]

On Tue, 14 Sep 2010 11:48:59 -0700, JeffM wrote:

> Homer quoted High Plains Thumper's item:
>>:One of the analysts said it costs $1,250 per person :to change over to
>>open source. It wasn't anywhere near that for us. :...
>>:What support? I'm not making calls to Red Hat; I don't need to. :I
>>think that's propaganda.
>>
> Those caught my eye as well.
>
>>Read this again:
>>http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/LiMux-project-management-We-were-
naive-958824.html

>>
>>Then ask yourself why it /really/ took Munich 7 years to migrate 15,000
>>computers to Linux. With a small team of technicians and engineers, I
>>could have done that in less than six months
>>
> "Forget Munich's Linux Migration, It's Already Done by Extremadura"
> http://www.osnews.com/story/12611

15000 machines, 7 years.

That's 2,555 days, so an average of some 6 machines per day.

Depending on how their previous setup was structured, that's not an
entirely unreasonable conversion rate, especially if you factor in
retraining, data export/backup/restore and the like.

To do it, as claimed, in 6 months - some 180 days - would require
converting 83+ machines per day.  This is certainly possible, to be sure,
but seems wholly unlikely unless the starting point is very well
standardized.

Simple example: where are documents stored?  Depending on the
organization, most will be stored on the server or on the desktop.  If
they're on the server, this will significantly reduce time to convert, as
you don't need to move all the data off (and then, presumably, back onto)
the desktop.  If it's on the desktop, however, it'll all have to be
either backed up to local media (external HD?) or tossed over the network
- and if the latter, done *without* sapping bandwidth for the rest of the
users.

And let's not forget, oh, emails.  Most organizations I've seen still use
- goat alone knows why - POP for emails, storing the messages locally on
the client machine, along with contact lists, schedule data, etc, etc,
etc.

Convert that all to centralized mail storage and the situation improves
considerably, but that still means actually managing the data migration
off the machine in the first place.

And then there's settings, for any number of apps, the apps themselves,
any customizations done on a per-seat basis, etc, etc, etc.

6 machines per day seems entirely reasonable, if one is doing the job
carefully, rather than just "pop in a CD and install, we'll sort out the
problems later."

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux Homer 9/16/10 8:35 AM
Verily I say unto thee, that Kelsey Bjarnason spake thusly:

> To do it, as claimed, in 6 months - some 180 days - would require
> converting 83+ machines per day.  This is certainly possible, to be
> sure, but seems wholly unlikely unless the starting point is very
> well standardized.

It's not rocket science, just advance planning, which incidentally I
would include in that 180 day estimate. Also ... 6 machines per day is a
joke, really. I could probably do 100 in one day single handed, given
the correct preparation, assuming remote access, and assuming no
re-engineering was required. Even if I had to deploy each system
manually, I could do far more than just 6 in one day.

Here's how to do a mass migration:

1. Initial client consultation. Identify software engineering tasks
   ("irreplaceable" software), creating a development and/or emulation
   strategy. Request inventory, schedules and key contact information.
   Create system identification map and schedule.

2. Establish a training area for the proposed systems, modifying as
   necessary to include components not previously identified by the
   client. Ensure a training programme is actually in place and
   operating throughout the migration process.

4. Establish remote access capability to all affected systems, for
   auditing and deployment purposes. Develop and test procedure on dummy
   systems as needed. Identify which systems are not network or PXE
   capable, and rectify where possible. Mark status of each system on
   map.

4. Audit all affected systems remotely to identify hardware,
   applications, data, and remote services, beyond what may have already
   been identified by the client, identifying common elements, and
   devise an automated migration strategy for each. Identify unique or
   uncommon components, devising an ad-hoc migration strategy or
   fallback plan, again - if applicable. Identify "personal" software
   (anything unauthorised and irrelevant to the workplace) to be
   discounted from migration (other than a courtesy data backup), with
   approval from the client. Ensure all login and password data is
   identified and recorded by each operator, where necessary and
   applicable, in addition to inclusion in the main migration backup.

4. Begin initial backup procedure from all client systems to the backup
   server, reducing network utilisation and data redundancy with
   consolidation and compression. Schedule incremental backups.

5. Create common platforms based on audit data. Install and test on
   dummy systems, whilst consulting with the client. Create PXE images
   for remote deployment, and physical media for any remaining non-PXE
   capable systems. Utilise second group for uncommon system development
   and deployment (ongoing). Deploy and test bespoke solutions on dummy
   systems, when completed, and if necessary.

6. Interim report and audit of migration process: re-engineering
   progress, data migration, training issues, hardware issues. Form
   action plan for key problem areas. Advise client if additional
   resources are recommended (costs), or amend schedule otherwise (if
   necessary).

7. Begin PXE deployment of all common platforms, escalating from a
   single system through group stages, to the maximum extent sustainable
   by the network/server (QoS), targeting one half of each group at a
   time to minimise down time, and to allow for any unexpected issues.
   Synchronise data restore with deployment completion per system
   (automated), and begin automated test procedures. Get feedback from
   the client, key personnel and operators. Manually deploy and test any
   non-PXE and uncommon systems (where completed). Update status for
   each system on map.

8. Second interim report and audit. Analysis of progress and map
   overview. Discuss training and other deployment issues. Review and
   amend action plans as necessary.

9. Complete engineering (where applicable) and deployment. Get feedback.
   Complete testing.

10. Project overview and final reports. Legal and financial formalities.
    Sign service contract (if requested).

At the given estimate of $1,250 (£800) per system, for 15,000 systems,
the final cost would be $18,750,000 (£12M), which is outrageous. I'd do
the whole thing with a team of no more than 10 people, for £500,000
($781,000), in around six months, without even breaking sweat, and still
make out like a bandit.

> Simple example: where are documents stored?

Any that aren't in standard locations can be found in one of two ways,
by searching through the filesystem, or by auditing application software
to determine its non-standard data directories (both of which are then
scripted and automated). There won't be any data loss in either case,
since each system will be subject to a full backup anyway, and any
interim data misplacement will be identified during the review process,
then rectified.

> If it's on the desktop, however, it'll all have to be either backed
> up to local media (external HD?) or tossed over the network - and if
> the latter, done *without* sapping bandwidth for the rest of the
> users.

Manually deploying systems is unnecessary and time consuming, especially
for large numbers, so I'd do the latter. I'd also be using enterprise
switches with QoS and load balancing, so bandwidth impact would be well
managed, although some loss of network performance is inevitable during
this necessary process.

> And let's not forget, oh, emails.  Most organizations I've seen still
> use - goat alone knows why - POP for emails, storing the messages
> locally on the client machine, along with contact lists, schedule
> data, etc, etc, etc.

Even on Windows, transfer of POP accounts, local mail, and data to IMAP
or groupware accounts can be automated, given a common platform. And
even for the uncommon scenarios, manual transfer can still be largely
scripted, and can of course still be done remotely.

> And then there's settings, for any number of apps, the apps
> themselves, any customizations done on a per-seat basis, etc, etc,
> etc.

The Windows applications themselves would become irrelevant after
migration, as they simply wouldn't exist any more, and therefore their
settings would also be irrelevant, other than that which would be
translated to the new system (primarily URI and login details).

Settings that may be unique to each Windows system would be standardised
across the Linux systems, and for the most part would point to common
remote resources, in effect making each system a thin client as much as
practicable, certainly where data is concerned. This is in fact the way
it should be in any business. Of course I'd break those systems down
into groups of platforms, and tailor each platform separately, whilst
making exceptions for unique systems, but that has far less overhead
than configuring each system individually. The only thing that remains
to be configured on each system is login and password details, both for
the host and any required remote services, which would be handled by a
combination of PAM, Kerberos, RADIUS and VPN, and again standardised
across the entire system.

> 6 machines per day seems entirely reasonable, if one is doing the job
> carefully, rather than just "pop in a CD and install, we'll sort out
> the problems later."

There's fairly well established procedures for mass deployment, which is
why I'm surprised that Munich apparently didn't follow them. IBM have
been doing this sort of thing for decades, and largely without resorting
to manual deployment using physical media. Clearly the process was
undertaken by amateurs, with little or no planning, and then further
hampered by very narrow-minded individuals, to put it politely.

--
K.
http://slated.org

.----
| You can't make an omelet without building some bridges
| ... but don't count your bridges until they've hatched
`----

Fedora release 8 (Werewolf) on sky, running kernel 2.6.31.5
 16:35:35 up 11 days, 23:54,  1 user,  load average: 0.00, 0.01, 0.00

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux JeffM 9/16/10 11:46 AM
>Kelsey Bjarnason wrote:
>>then there's settings, for[...]apps[...]

>>customizations done on a per-seat basis
>>
Homer wrote:
>irrelevant after migration, as they simply wouldn't exist any more
>
Whoa now.  Don't be so hasty.
Now, **THIS** is where Munich shines.
...and what they have done is openly available to all:
http://google.com/search?q=WollMux+macros&hl=all
Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux Homer 9/16/10 4:02 PM
Verily I say unto thee, that JeffM spake thusly:
> Homer wrote:
>> Kelsey Bjarnason wrote:

>>> then there's settings, for[...]apps[...] customizations done on a
>>>  per-seat basis
>>>
>> irrelevant after migration, as they simply wouldn't exist any more
>>
> Whoa now.  Don't be so hasty.
> Now, **THIS** is where Munich shines.
> ...and what they have done is openly available to all:
> http://google.com/search?q=WollMux+macros&hl=all

Except document templates are not "settings", they're data, and would
therefore be preserved. In fact even settings would be preserved, in the
sense that they'd be translated to the new system as far as practicable.
Although, with the exception of passwords, most of it would simply be
irrelevant cruft (and even passwords can be reset and reissued).

--
K.
http://slated.org

.----
| You can't make an omelet without building some bridges
| ... but don't count your bridges until they've hatched
`----

Fedora release 8 (Werewolf) on sky, running kernel 2.6.31.5
 00:02:31 up 12 days,  7:21,  0 users,  load average: 1.71, 0.69, 0.25

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux Kelsey Bjarnason 9/16/10 9:09 PM
[snips]

On Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:35:57 +0100, Homer wrote:

>> If it's on the desktop, however, it'll all have to be either backed up
>> to local media (external HD?) or tossed over the network - and if the
>> latter, done *without* sapping bandwidth for the rest of the users.
>
> Manually deploying systems is unnecessary and time consuming, especially
> for large numbers, so I'd do the latter. I'd also be using enterprise
> switches with QoS and load balancing, so bandwidth impact would be well
> managed, although some loss of network performance is inevitable during
> this necessary process.

So, you're going to migrate data off 80 systems per day - 10 per hour -
each with possibly many gigs of data, and you're going to do this without
negatively impacting the net for everyone else, yet maintain speed for
the machines being archived.

Nice to know that QoS is magic.


>> And let's not forget, oh, emails.  Most organizations I've seen still
>> use - goat alone knows why - POP for emails, storing the messages
>> locally on the client machine, along with contact lists, schedule data,
>> etc, etc, etc.
>
> Even on Windows, transfer of POP accounts, local mail, and data to IMAP
> or groupware accounts can be automated

And still requires both time to identify the cases where this is needed
and to migrate the data.  Let's put this in perspective...

My gmail imap account overflowed the default allowance, which, IIRC, is
something like 7GB.

My work imap account overflowed _its_ allowance, which was over 10GB.

Result?  I had to migrate to local storage - basically, POP it all off.  
That's 17GB of emails in _just two accounts_.

The last development firm I worked for, the _norm_ was for users to keep
their emails.  Forever.  One project manager had emails going back 7
years.

Email _alone_ may well mean 5+GB of data per machine.  And let us not
forget you also need to migrate account settings, filters, rules, score
files and the like.  Folder structures, which will almost certainly be
unique per machine.  And so on.

>> And then there's settings, for any number of apps, the apps themselves,
>> any customizations done on a per-seat basis, etc, etc, etc.
>
> The Windows applications themselves would become irrelevant after
> migration

Assuming a lot, there, aren't you?

Simple example: timesheets.  One outfit used 'em, via an Excel
spreadsheet, distributed to the staff, loaded with VB macros.  Sure, you
can use OOo instead of Office, but you still need to migrate the
scripting, or replace it with something else that achieves the same end.

> Settings that may be unique to each Windows system would be standardised
> across the Linux systems

Why?  If they weren't standardized in the original case, why would they
be standardized in the subsequent case?  Certainly some things should be
standardized - but some things absolutely shouldn't.

>, and for the most part would point to common
> remote resources, in effect making each system a thin client as much as
> practicable, certainly where data is concerned. This is in fact the way
> it should be in any business.

Again, assuming a lot.  In a development environment, this setup is often
disastrous, as the overhead of pulling crap over the net can kill build
times.  And let's not even ponder the effects of doing this on media
files.

> than configuring each system individually. The only thing that remains
> to be configured on each system is login and password details

There's a hell of a lot more than that to be tailored.  Frankly, based on
your somewhat flippant approach to the whole matter, I'd tend to think
you've never even heard of a serious migration, let alone tried one.

>> 6 machines per day seems entirely reasonable, if one is doing the job
>> carefully, rather than just "pop in a CD and install, we'll sort out
>> the problems later."
>
> There's fairly well established procedures for mass deployment, which is
> why I'm surprised that Munich apparently didn't follow them.

Again, assuming a lot.  If you have a well-controlled, well-defined
starting point, migration can be trivial.  If you don't, it can be a
deeply intense process where essentially every machine is "an exception".

From the sounds of it, the Munich folks have done a bang-up job of doing
the job *right* instead of your half-assed "do it and apply bandaids
later, as needed" approach.


Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux voodoo 9/16/10 9:18 PM
On Tue, 14 Sep 2010 15:35:06 +0200, Hadron wrote:

> TomB <tommy.b...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On 2010-09-14, the following emerged from the brain of High Plains
>> Thumper:
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> Ernie Ball is pretty much known as a musician's buddy. How does it
>>> feel to be a technology guru, as well?
>>>
>>> The myth has been built so big that you can't survive without
>>> Microsoft. I think it's great for me to be a technology influence. It
>>> shows how ridiculous it is that I can get press because I switched to
>>> OpenOffice. And the reason why is because the myth has been built so
>>> big that you can't survive without Microsoft, so that somebody who
>>> does get by without Microsoft is a story.
>>>
>>> It's just software. You have to figure out what you need to do within
>>> your organization and then get the right stuff for that. And we're not
>>> a backwards organization. We're progressive; we've won communications
>>> and design awards...The fact that I'm not sending my e-mail through
>>> Outlook doesn't hinder us. It's just kind of funny. I'm speaking to a
>>> standing-room-only audience at a major technology show because I use a
>>> different piece of software--that's hysterical. [/quote]
>>
>> So true. Very well stated. The dependence on Microsoft is largely
>> artificial.
>
> Its not well said at all.

here we are in a linux advocacy group, *finally* with a posting that
advocates linux, and shows that linux works well in the right
environment, and you are complaining.

> The dependence is on the apps. So yes, it is "just SW". The SW that
> people use and need. Have you NO idea about the SW real companies use?
> How many bespoke apps etc there are? How hard it is to find GOOD

bespoke app? is that some regional description? no insult meant, it just
comes out of the blue.

> programmers who specialise in anything other than Windows APIs? And I

for *this* linux success story, there is no need for the things of which
you speak.

> don't mean the 8 guys who work 7days a week for free making (now cross
> platform for Windows too) stuff like Amarok or the amazing X-Moto.
>
> I see you've gone to the dark side. I used to have hope for you.
>
> As the "son of Little Roy" you have really lost it.
>
> Little Roy Ahlstrom has clearly gone mad. He needs help. The sooner Big
> Roy comes back and make room on his lap for Chris the better for
> everyone.

trite, irrelevant, and tiresome insults. you have been spending way too
much of your social life hanging out with dfs.

unk...@googlegroups.com 9/16/10 9:29 PM <This message has been deleted.>
Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux Peter Köhlmann 9/16/10 11:19 PM
Moshe Goldfarb wrote:

> On Fri, 17 Sep 2010 04:18:18 GMT, voodoo <voo...@tootycar.net> wrote:
>
>
>>here we are in a linux advocacy group, *finally* with a posting that
>>advocates linux, and shows that linux works well in the right
>>environment, and you are complaining.
>
> Ernie Ball converted to Linux because they got caught pirating
> Microsoft and other software.

Wrong. They had paid for it.
The computers get shuffled around, and so software ends up on machines were it
wasn't supposed to be according to the licence.

Has nothing to do with "piracy"
 
> I'm glad Linux works for them, that's great.
>
> However, a less than 100 seat win isn't exactly the Holy Grail of
> Linux migrations yet you loons have been talking about it for years.
>

It showed that even for a relatily small company it is possible to switch
without too much trouble.

Something vehemently denied by the MS shills here. You know, filth like you,
DFS or Hadron Larry Snot Quark
--
Microsoft's Guide To System Design:
        If it starts working, we'll fix it.  Pronto.

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux Homer 9/16/10 11:22 PM
Verily I say unto thee, that Kelsey Bjarnason spake thusly:

> [snips]
>
> On Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:35:57 +0100, Homer wrote:

>> Manually deploying systems is unnecessary and time consuming,
>> especially for large numbers, so I'd do the latter. I'd also be
>> using enterprise switches with QoS and load balancing, so bandwidth
>> impact would be well managed, although some loss of network
>> performance is inevitable during this necessary process.
>
> So, you're going to migrate data off 80 systems per day - 10 per hour
> - each with possibly many gigs of data, and you're going to do this
> without negatively impacting the net for everyone else, yet maintain
> speed for the machines being archived.
>
> Nice to know that QoS is magic.

What part of "some loss of network perfmance" didn't you understand?

Do you think a migration of this scale can be done without having any
impact during the process?

>> Even on Windows, transfer of POP accounts, local mail, and data to
>> IMAP or groupware accounts can be automated
>
> And still requires both time to identify the cases where this is
> needed and to migrate the data.

As I already clearly stated I would do.

> Email _alone_ may well mean 5+GB of data per machine.

Well I wouldn't plan to backup 15000 systems with just a USB thumbdrive,
I'd be using a server with at least a petabyte of storage, which would
be within the stated budget (and be a resuable asset).

> And let us not forget you also need to migrate account settings,
> filters, rules, score files and the like.

Like I said, all can be automated, having identified the applications in
question.

> Folder structures, which will almost certainly be unique per machine.

Which, again, will be replicated then restored by the backup.

>> The Windows applications themselves would become irrelevant after
>> migration
>
> Assuming a lot, there, aren't you?

I'm assuming the client wants to migrate to Linux, which is, after all,
the whole point of the exercise.

> Simple example: timesheets.  One outfit used 'em, via an Excel
> spreadsheet, distributed to the staff, loaded with VB macros.  Sure,
> you can use OOo instead of Office, but you still need to migrate the
> scripting, or replace it with something else that achieves the same
> end.

Well assuming the client does actually want to migrate to Linux, then
ultimately this application is not going to be used, and so will need to
be replaced with something else, like OpenOffice. The complication of VB
scripts would be part of the engineering effort that I've already
accounted for, as stated.

>> Settings that may be unique to each Windows system would be
>> standardised across the Linux systems
>
> Why?  If they weren't standardized in the original case, why would
> they be standardized in the subsequent case?  Certainly some things
> should be standardized - but some things absolutely shouldn't.

Groups of systems performing the same task can be standardised for the
purpose of migration, thus aiding the automation process. It's then up
to the operators to provide any vanity customisations outwith the scope
of the system's purpose (assuming the client even wishes to allow such a
thing), which they may do from the data restored to their respective
systems, preserved by the backup (e.g. wallpaper). If those responsible
for the Munich migration wasted their time carefully restoring every
infinitesimal vanity or otherwise irrelevant customisation to each of
those 15000 systems, then I'm not at all surprised it's taken them 7+
years to do so.

>> and for the most part would point to common remote resources, in
>> effect making each system a thin client as much as practicable,
>> certainly where data is concerned. This is in fact the way it
>> should be in any business.
>
> Again, assuming a lot.  In a development environment, this setup is
> often disastrous, as the overhead of pulling crap over the net can
> kill build times.  And let's not even ponder the effects of doing
> this on media files.

And how many of those 15,000 systems are development or media
workstations? Like I said, "as much as practicable".

>> than configuring each system individually. The only thing that
>> remains to be configured on each system is login and password
>> details
>
> There's a hell of a lot more than that to be tailored.  Frankly,
> based on your somewhat flippant approach to the whole matter, I'd
> tend to think you've never even heard of a serious migration, let
> alone tried one.

I spent 25 years working in exactly this field, so please don't tell me
what you think I've "heard of".

>> There's fairly well established procedures for mass deployment,
>> which is why I'm surprised that Munich apparently didn't follow
>> them.
>
> Again, assuming a lot.

I don't need to assume anything, I just need to follow procedures.

> If you have a well-controlled, well-defined starting point, migration
> can be trivial.

Correct.

--
K.
http://slated.org

.----
| You can't make an omelet without building some bridges
| ... but don't count your bridges until they've hatched
`----

Fedora release 8 (Werewolf) on sky, running kernel 2.6.31.5
 07:22:19 up 12 days, 14:40,  1 user,  load average: 0.05, 0.01, 0.00

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux spi...@freenet.co.uk 9/17/10 3:52 AM
And verily, didst Kelsey Bjarnason <kbjar...@gmail.com> hastily babble thusly:

> [snips]
>
> On Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:35:57 +0100, Homer wrote:
>
>>> If it's on the desktop, however, it'll all have to be either backed up
>>> to local media (external HD?) or tossed over the network - and if the
>>> latter, done *without* sapping bandwidth for the rest of the users.
>>
>> Manually deploying systems is unnecessary and time consuming, especially
>> for large numbers, so I'd do the latter. I'd also be using enterprise
>> switches with QoS and load balancing, so bandwidth impact would be well
>> managed, although some loss of network performance is inevitable during
>> this necessary process.
>
> So, you're going to migrate data off 80 systems per day - 10 per hour -
> each with possibly many gigs of data, and you're going to do this without
> negatively impacting the net for everyone else, yet maintain speed for
> the machines being archived.
>
> Nice to know that QoS is magic.

Simple. During the transfer period you setup a subnet. Possibly even a
completely seperate network with a file server specifically for the
transfers. No network activity on the company network, all machines
connected to the new network get their data shunted over. Done.

Even if it means plugging in a second network card into the machines doing
the transfer, it'd be quicker than some of the wintrolls're letting on
without impacting on company-wide network usage.

It's not as if many companies still use 10baseT with all the collisions and
stuff inherent in that.  With a hub, you get bandwidth problems, with a
switch, you get a lot fewer.

--
|   spi...@freenet.co.uk   | "I'm alive!!! I can touch! I can taste!         |
|   Andrew Halliwell BSc   |  I can SMELL!!!  KRYTEN!!! Unpack Rachel and    |
|            in            |  get out the puncture repair kit!"              |
|     Computer Science     |     Arnold Judas Rimmer- Red Dwarf              |

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux DFS 9/17/10 5:36 AM
On 9/17/2010 12:29 AM, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Sep 2010 04:18:18 GMT, voodoo<voo...@tootycar.net>  wrote:
>
>
>> here we are in a linux advocacy group, *finally* with a posting that
>> advocates linux, and shows that linux works well in the right
>> environment, and you are complaining.
>
> Ernie Ball converted to Linux because they got caught pirating
> Microsoft and other software.
>
> I'm glad Linux works for them, that's great.
>
> However, a less than 100 seat win isn't exactly the Holy Grail of
> Linux migrations yet you loons have been talking about it for years.


Ernie Ball is peanuts:


According to Linux "advocate" Chris Hunter "the entire German
government, French government, most of Scandinavia, /all/ of China, much
of India..." switched to Linux

According to Linux "advocate" Homer "half of Europe dumped Windows and
switched to Linux."

According to Linux "advocate" Dumb Willie Poaster the entire country of
Brazil switched to Linux.

According to Linux "advocate" Roy Spamowitz the entire country of
Venezuela switched to Linux/open source in 2007.


That's about 1 billion Linux users right there.


Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux DFS 9/17/10 5:38 AM

You're an idiot, Dumbkopf.


The Ernie Ball CEO told them he wanted MS stuff gone in 6 months.  huh?
  I don't know how long it really took, but considering he gave them 6
months to switch 80 computers sounds like a hell of a lot of trouble.

Sterling Ball has a quote that should be your permanent .sig:
"I couldn't have built my business without Microsoft, so I thank them."

http://news.cnet.com/2008-1082_3-5065859.html

The Munich failure fiasco has been going on for 7 years, and it will be
another 2-3 before it's done.  That's ~10 years from announcement to
completion - for one city with 14000 systems.

http://www.muenchen.de/Rathaus/dir/limux/english/147197/index.html

MS is doomed.


Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux High Plains Thumper 9/17/10 8:43 PM
Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
> High Plains Thumper posted:
>
>> On http://www.ernieball.com/history
>>
>> Go to Year 2000, scroll to the picture of Bill Gates in a crossed
>> out red circle.
>
> http://cdn.ernieball.com/history-img/280/screw_microsoft.jpg
>
>> It states,
>>
>> [quote]
>> 2000, the Business Software Alliance conducted a raid and
>> subsequent audit at the San Luis Obispo, Calif.-based factory that
>> turned up a few dozen unlicensed copies of programs. Ball settled
>> for $65,000, plus $35,000 in legal fees. But by then, the BSA, a
>> trade group that helps enforce copyrights and licensing provisions
>> for major business software makers, had put the company on the
>> evening news and featured it in regional ads warning other
>> businesses to monitor their software licenses.
>
> A variation on the Microsoft Smear®.  No wonder this was the result:
>
>> Sterling Ball told his IT department he wanted Microsoft products
>> out of his business within six months. The transition was a breeze,
>> and since then he's been happy to extol the virtues of open-source
>> software to anyone who asks. View the Full Story at
>> http://news.cnet.com/2008-1082_3-5065859.html?tag=lh
>> [/quote]

Problem is, that even though one has enough licenses to cover the entire
say 80 PC's, and that although only one and same OS is installed on them
all, the mixing of them (OEM version, corporate license, etc.) not
targeted to the right PC's can get one into hot water.

This happened to a consultant friend's engineering firm, who had a
similar install base.  Similar to Ernie Ball, they had a disgruntled
ex-employee report their firm to the SBA.  Similarly, they were out of
compliance by a small fraction.  Similarly, they were fined similar
costs the Ernie Ball bore.

They are a heavy user of AutoCAD, so they retained Windows.  Now to
safeguard, they purchase additional licenses above and beyond their
needs to ensure they are adequately covered.

The trolls keep crying "foul" with Linux advocates, insultingly and
unfairly calling them "freetards".  However, if SBA were authorised to
audit their homes, it would not surprise me if there was a gold mine of
piracy, given their hypocrisy.

--
HPT

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux DFS 9/17/10 8:48 PM
On 9/17/2010 11:43 PM, High Plains Thumper wrote:


> The trolls keep crying "foul" with Linux advocates, insultingly and
> unfairly calling them "freetards".  However, if SBA were authorised to
> audit their homes, it would not surprise me if there was a gold mine of
> piracy, given their hypocrisy.


What hypocrisy are you referring to?


Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux RonB 9/17/10 9:06 PM
On Fri, 17 Sep 2010 21:43:28 -0600, High Plains Thumper wrote:

> The trolls keep crying "foul" with Linux advocates, insultingly and
> unfairly calling them "freetards".  However, if SBA were authorised to
> audit their homes, it would not surprise me if there was a gold mine of
> piracy, given their hypocrisy.

I look at the SBA as a rogue police department that pays itself by how
much it can extort from others. The more money they can make on
technicalities, the more they can pocket. In the real world, piracy is
illegally copying and selling someone else's software. Pretty easy to
prove. In the SBA version of extortion "reality" it's failing to
completely remove a program from an a computer rolled into another
department that's used for a completely different purpose and the program
in question hasn't been used since the computer was moved. I would have
done exactly what Ernie Ball did in this case -- get as far away from
these programs as I could. When you're being extorted by the companies you
buy your products from -- it's time to dump them.

--
RonB
Registered Linux User #498581
CentOS 5.5 or Fedora 13 or VectorLinux Deluxe 6.0

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux Hadron 9/18/10 9:20 AM
DFS <nospam@dfs_.com> writes:

Like many words he uses I doubt he understands the meaning of it.

Poor "hpt". Roy assigned him the "COLA press manager" role and he's
simply too incompetent even to do that.

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux Clogwog 9/18/10 10:36 AM
"DFS" <nospam@dfs_.com> schreef in bericht
news:i6vnfq$frr$4@news.eternal-september.org...

Dumkopf bought a seaworthy yacht, financed thanks to Windows closed source
programming.
Microsoft made him rich, of course, take a look in de.rec.sport.segeln.
b.t.w.
I never saw *any* contribution to open source from Kohltard, did you?

>
> http://news.cnet.com/2008-1082_3-5065859.html
>
>
>
> The Munich failure fiasco has been going on for 7 years, and it will be
> another 2-3 before it's done.  That's ~10 years from announcement to
> completion - for one city with 14000 systems.
>
> http://www.muenchen.de/Rathaus/dir/limux/english/147197/index.html
>
>
>
> MS is doomed.
>
>


Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux Kelsey Bjarnason 9/18/10 4:32 PM
[snips]

On Fri, 17 Sep 2010 11:52:21 +0100, spike1 wrote:

> Simple. During the transfer period you setup a subnet. Possibly even a
> completely seperate network with a file server specifically for the
> transfers.

It can be done, to be sure.  I just don't buy his flippant, errant
nonsense about how he's going to magically do it all in 6 months or
whatever it was, without absolutely disastrous results, particularly
given his near-total lack of apparent insight into either the potential
problems or their potential solutions.

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux High Plains Thumper 9/19/10 12:01 AM
RonB wrote:
> High Plains Thumper wrote:
>
>> The trolls keep crying "foul" with Linux advocates, insultingly
>> and unfairly calling them "freetards".  However, if SBA were
>> authorised to audit their homes, it would not surprise me if there
>> was a gold mine of piracy, given their hypocrisy.
>
> I look at the SBA as a rogue police department that pays itself by
> how much it can extort from others. The more money they can make on
> technicalities, the more they can pocket. In the real world, piracy
> is illegally copying and selling someone else's software. Pretty easy
> to prove. In the SBA version of extortion "reality" it's failing to
> completely remove a program from an a computer rolled into another
> department that's used for a completely different purpose and the
> program in question hasn't been used since the computer was moved. I
> would have done exactly what Ernie Ball did in this case -- get as
> far away from these programs as I could. When you're being extorted
> by the companies you buy your products from -- it's time to dump
> them.

I find it odd that one can be condemned without a trial.  If it were a
matter that the fine were determined by a court of law, I would consider
it fair.  It would be the justice who would determine the fine, not some
rogue enforcement agency appointed outside the US Constitution / Bill of
Rights.

Essentially, the process has eliminated due process.  "Arrest" should
not be done by a non-government agency.  That is the purpose of
government, to enforce the law, and punish those who do not.

--
HPT

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux Clogwog 9/19/10 1:54 AM
"High Plains Thumper" <hpt@invalid.invalid> schreef in bericht
news:i74cfp$7b4$1@news.eternal-september.org...^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>

BWAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAAAAAH!!!
HPT's nice little self nuke
[quote]
Price: $25
Size: 2.63 Gb
Platform: Linux, MacOS, Windows
$25 - BUY NOW
Autodesk Maya Unlimited 2009 Win Linux Mac
[/quote]
http://down.cd/info_2913.html

http://groups.google.nl/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/e0d79130b5c67550?hl=nl&dmode=source&output=gplain

Not only is he always posting other peoples stuff, now he's using pirated
programs as well!

******** HPT violates the laws of his country! ********

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux voodoo 9/19/10 7:32 AM
On Tue, 14 Sep 2010 13:19:52 -0400, DFS wrote:

> On 9/14/2010 12:47 PM, Homer wrote:

>> Yes, in general I think the supposed costs and difficulties associated
>> with migrating from Windows to Linux is largely just propaganda, and
>> the delays in doing so (e.g. Munich) are more a result of die-hard
>> Microsoft bigots dragging their heels, than any genuine difficulties.
>
>
> Idiot.
>
> Who's going to open and review/fix the billions of MS Office documents
> that get changed - if not outright corrupted - by OpenOffice.  If OO can
> even read them in the first place.

the same people that will open and review/fix the billions of MS Office
documents that get changed - if not outright corrupted - by the next
version of MS Office.

Idiot.

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux Hadron 9/19/10 7:57 AM
voodoo <voo...@tootycar.net> writes:

Telling lies doesn't make you a "visionary". It makes you an "advocate".

Telling lies and making a fool of yourself time and time again is no way
to go through life son. Buck up and research your posts before hitting
send. That way you wont be ridiculed and humiliated so much. Do you WANT
to go the way of Creepy?


Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux High Plains Thumper 9/19/10 8:04 AM
voodoo wrote:

DFS logic is flawed.  IMHO, most documents today are electronically
archived as PDF, not DOC nor the less preferred to work in DOCX.
Finalised version transmittal to individuals internally and externally
are done in PDF.  The necessity to retain Microsoft formatting for
archiving are greatly exaggerated, a myth.

Also, Microsoft has dropped backwards compatibility with older Word
formats done in previous Office editions, to continue lock in to
encourage upgrading (at additional expense) to newer Office editions.
The "for profit" motive outweighs the user's interests.

In my expericences, OpenOffice has little trouble opening most Microsoft
Office files.  Any deviations are easily cleaned up.  Once saved as ODT,
any concern for retaining Microsoft formatting is quickly removed.

It is possible to continue living on with Microsoft, as Sterling Ball
has done.  The necessity for Microsoft software for most business
practises are a myth.

--
HPT

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux High Plains Thumper 9/19/10 8:16 AM
High Plains Thumper wrote:

> It is possible to continue living on with[out] Microsoft, as


> Sterling Ball has done.  The necessity for Microsoft software for
> most business practises are a myth.

Oops, the older I get, the more I am dropping words (sigh).  Given the
Wintroll fanboi'ism runs high here in COLA, it would not surprise me if
these clowns will take advantage of obvious typos (correction in
brackets), seeing their days are truly numbered.

Oh, BTW, I wiped my Dell C600 Latitude hard disk of both Ubuntu 8.04 LTS
and the now borked Win2k partition, replaced with Xubuntu latest
edition.  All 100 GB's are pure Linux.  It doesn't get any better than
this.  Heh!

--
HPT

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux DFS 9/19/10 10:43 AM


This is one of the many lies about MS\Windows that Linux goobs have to
tell themselves.

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux DFS 9/19/10 10:53 AM
On 9/19/2010 11:04 AM, High Plains Thumper wrote:
> voodoo wrote:
>> DFS wrote:
>>> Homer wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes, in general I think the supposed costs and difficulties
>>>> associated with migrating from Windows to Linux is largely just
>>>> propaganda, and the delays in doing so (e.g. Munich) are more a
>>>> result of die-hard Microsoft bigots dragging their heels, than
>>>> any genuine difficulties.
>>>
>>> Idiot.
>>>
>>> Who's going to open and review/fix the billions of MS Office
>>> documents that get changed - if not outright corrupted - by
>>> OpenOffice.  If OO can even read them in the first place.
>>
>> the same people that will open and review/fix the billions of MS
>> Office documents that get changed - if not outright corrupted - by
>> the next version of MS Office.
>>
>> Idiot.
>
> DFS logic is flawed.  IMHO, most documents today are electronically
> archived as PDF, not DOC nor the less preferred to work in DOCX.

That's your opinion, but it's not at all supported by reality.  Maybe on
your Windows computer you save as .pdf from time to time in order to
delude yourself that you're a proponent of "open standards".

It's not hard at all for you to prove to yourself.  Go out to one of the
file servers in your company, and look for documents from 2004 time
frame, and you'll see they're nearly all .xls and .doc files.

> Finalised version transmittal to individuals internally and externally
> are done in PDF.

heh!  Of course they are not.

Again, it's not hard at all for you to prove to yourself.  Go out to one
of the file servers in your company, and look for documents from 2009
time frame, and you'll see they're nearly all .xls and .doc files.


> The necessity to retain Microsoft formatting for
> archiving are greatly exaggerated, a myth.

You don't know what you're talking about.  Archived office docs are
virtually always stored in MS Office formats.

> Also, Microsoft has dropped backwards compatibility with older Word
> formats done in previous Office editions, to continue lock in to
> encourage upgrading (at additional expense) to newer Office editions.
> The "for profit" motive outweighs the user's interests.

What, too dumb to know the default open/save format can be changed?

And who forces these businesses to upgrade Office versions anyway?


> In my expericences, OpenOffice has little trouble opening most Microsoft
> Office files.  Any deviations are easily cleaned up.  Once saved as ODT,
> any concern for retaining Microsoft formatting is quickly removed.

.odt?

Tell me again who uses it.

> It is possible to continue living on with Microsoft, as Sterling Ball
> has done.

As you did as well.


The necessity for Microsoft software for most business
> practises are a myth.

Yet virtually 100% of new businesses go with
MS\Windows\Office\Exchange\IE for all client systems, and some sizeable
portion of their back-office systems?

Year after year after year after year... never-ending.

Why would they do that if they can supposedly save buku with Linux/open
source?


HPT fails again.

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux DFS 9/19/10 10:54 AM

Heh indeed.  You hung onto Windows 2000 for nearly 10 years.

That's at least 8 years longer than you've used any one Linux distro.

HPT fails again.

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux JEDIDIAH 9/19/10 11:40 AM
On 2010-09-17, Moshe Goldfarb <moshe_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, 17 Sep 2010 04:18:18 GMT, voodoo <voo...@tootycar.net> wrote:
>
>
>>here we are in a linux advocacy group, *finally* with a posting that
>>advocates linux, and shows that linux works well in the right
>>environment, and you are complaining.
>
> Ernie Ball converted to Linux because they got caught pirating
> Microsoft and other software.

    Yes "caught pirating".

    This is newspeak for not being able to adequately manage their licenses.

    When I was in college, the VAX that we were doing an assembly class on
suddenly went offline in the middle of the semester. It seems that someone
forgot to renew the license on VMS and it decided to turn itself off.

    This was not some blatant attempt to steal from DEC. It was just some
corporate/academic drone managing to perform their job at 100% efficiency.

    The point being... license management of commercial software can be a
real bother. The relevant parties that are ready to swoop down and punish
you don't necessarily make it easy for you to figure out if you are fully
compliant. They will of course interpret any documentation you do have in
the most punitive way possible.

    That's a cost of doing business.

    It's something else to add to TCO calculations.

--

   Nevermind the pirates. Sony needs to worry about it's own back catalog. |||
                                                                                                                / | \

unk...@googlegroups.com 9/20/10 1:25 PM <This message has been deleted.>
unk...@googlegroups.com 9/20/10 1:27 PM <This message has been deleted.>
unk...@googlegroups.com 9/20/10 1:31 PM <This message has been deleted.>
Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux JEDIDIAH 9/20/10 2:12 PM
On 2010-09-20, Moshe Goldfarb <moshe_...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, 19 Sep 2010 13:40:24 -0500, JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet>
> wrote:
>
>>On 2010-09-17, Moshe Goldfarb <moshe_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, 17 Sep 2010 04:18:18 GMT, voodoo <voo...@tootycar.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>here we are in a linux advocacy group, *finally* with a posting that
>>>>advocates linux, and shows that linux works well in the right
>>>>environment, and you are complaining.
>>>
>
>>> Ernie Ball converted to Linux because they got caught pirating
>>> Microsoft and other software.
>>
>>    Yes "caught pirating".
>>
>>    This is newspeak for not being able to adequately manage their licenses.
>>>    When I was in college, the VAX that we were doing an assembly class on
>>suddenly went offline in the middle of the semester. It seems that someone
>>forgot to renew the license on VMS and it decided to turn itself off.
>
> No, it's called stealing.

    Even in the criminal code there are allowances made for intent.

[deletia]

    No, it is not the Linux users that are "fretards". It is the Windows
users. They are afterall a den of thieves and always have been since the
DOS days. Much of the platform's growth is due to this.

--
     Apple: Because a large harddrive is for power users.
                                                                  |||
                                                                 / | \

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux voodoo 9/21/10 6:34 PM

dfs? oh hell no.

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux voodoo 9/21/10 7:31 PM

are you claiming that the current version of microsoft word will
perfectly reproduce and edit documents created by any and all older revs?

of course you will ignore the problems caused by those idiots who do not
upgrade and force some truly noble microsoft customer to downrev a
document. the scum are only thinking of their own bottom line, saving
pennies and ignoring bill gates need for a few more billion.

and you will also ignore any problems caused by the mac version screwing
up files created on true pcs.
  http://forums.macrumors.com/archive/index.php/t-693244.html
"I used a standard resume template in Word 2008 Mac that is not
displaying properly in Windows. Here is a brief description:"

oh my! word is more than just letters and sentences. look at this.

  http://www.endnote.com/enword2k7.asp
"EndNote X4 has been designed to be compatible with the 32 bit version of
Word 2010. We do not currently have a version of EndNote compatible with
the 64 bit version of Word 2010."

and this, not an upgrade saga but it still has to be checked for
incompatable whatevers
http://social.answers.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/w7programs/thread/
b761119e-f826-4794-8c9b-6610b3658832

"I have been using Microsoft Picture It for years to design tons of
graphics for my business and now I have purchased a new pc loaded with
Windows 7 and find that my true love Picture It! is not compatable."

you can find some better ones with a little effort. just put these words
into a google search and poke around
   microsoft
   word
   version
   incompatibilities

just open your mind to the vast horizons of the real world.

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux Chris Ahlstrom 9/22/10 3:31 AM
voodoo posted this message in ROT13 encoding:

> On Sun, 19 Sep 2010 16:57:48 +0200, Hadron wrote:
>
>> Telling lies and making a fool of yourself time and time again is no way
>> to go through life son. Buck up and research your posts before hitting
>> send. That way you wont be ridiculed and humiliated so much. Do you WANT
>> to go the way of Creepy?
>
> dfs? oh hell no.

LOL.

--
Finagle's Creed:
        Science is true.  Don't be misled by facts.

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux chrisv 9/22/10 6:11 AM
> Hadron quacked:

>>
>> Telling lies and making a fool of yourself time and time again is no way
>> to go through life son.

Huh?  Practice what you preach, Larry.

--
"How hard it is to find GOOD programmers who specialise in anything
other than Windows APIs?"  -  "True Linux advocate" Hadron Quark

Re: 10 years later, Ernie Ball profits from Linux One Shot, One Kill 9/22/10 12:32 PM

"chrisv" <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:5vvj965l2rc21mqovlplq89sdpshjkvaqp@4ax.com...

shut the fsck up you stupid lying piece of shit.


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