Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance

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Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Jason Robillard 7/14/12 7:39 AM
http://barefootrunninguniversity.com/2012/07/14/thermoregulation-and-running-a-cool-idea/

My ramblings on core body temp as a detriment to performance. It ties into the discussions about Waterlogged, and is an extension on the moisture-wicking discussions we had awhile ago.

The question- what else can we do to reduce body temps when the natural mechanisms aren't enough? Let's assume we're racing and performance is the goal.
Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance gordo 7/14/12 8:25 AM
Well for something like WS, laying down in the water for a few minutes at every stream crossing comes to mind. Doing that without wicking clothing might be pretty uncomfortable, though.

Gordo
Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Nick J 7/14/12 10:11 AM
Nice post Jason, this was my thinking a few weeks back when I posted something similar on here.  I'm pretty much sold on this idea now and will be looking out for some organic white cotton tees. Hopefully it'll get hot here again soon.
Re: [Minimalist Runner:115305] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance JZ 7/14/12 10:11 AM
Similar to Gordo's suggestion, Noakes recommends putting water on the skin (sponging) to help reduce heat stress.  I've been dipping my (moisture wicking) shirt into a stream about halfway through my runs lately.  I don't know if this helps reduce my core temp, but it certainly feels good.

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Re: [Minimalist Runner:115305] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Jason Robillard 7/14/12 10:19 AM
I use JZ and Gordo's suggestion now, but not as often as I should. The major issue I had was relying on drinking more to regulate core temps. After all, that's the advice typically given. I didn't view overheating as an overheating issue, rather a hydration/electrolyte issue. Reframing the problem makes problem-solving much easier as core temp can be managed before syptoms arise.

Anyone ever try running with a giant sun hat?
Re: [Minimalist Runner:115326] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Tuck 7/14/12 10:27 AM
As far as drinking to regulate core temps, I've come to the conclusion that drinking iced drinks when you're exercising is a really bad idea...  It's too easy to start relying on the cool fluid for temperature regulation.  Drink luke-warm fluids, that way you'll only drink to thirst.  Save the chilled fluids for that beer or cider afterward. 
 
"Anyone ever try running with a giant sun hat?"
Jefe does....
_________________________________
Tucker
 

Re: [Minimalist Runner:115326] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance el jefe 7/14/12 10:29 AM
i started running in a garden hat this summer.....loose weave straw, and i get it soaked before the run...i also wet my body before runs, and during, if i can.....the giant hat really helps....it holds moisture in the straw, and acts as an evaportative system.....the large brim shades the neck, face, and shoulders......i have to admit, after not wearing a hat for all these years, the large, light gardening hat has made a big difference in the high temps this summer....who knew.....here is the model i use, i think i got it at home depot for about five bux...cheerx, el jefe
Re: [Minimalist Runner:115329] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Tuck 7/14/12 10:30 AM
Straw hat and a loin cloth... the latest running fashion.  LOL.
_________________________________
Tucker
 

Re: [Minimalist Runner:115326] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance JZ 7/14/12 10:40 AM
Due to el jefe's posts about his straw hat, I recently got myself one.  I've only worn it for one run so far, but it worked just fine on that run.

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 1:19 PM, Jason Robillard <robil...@gmail.com> wrote:



--
Joe
Re: [Minimalist Runner:115326] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Jason Robillard 7/14/12 10:48 AM
That's exactly what I was thinking as far as a hat... reasonable air flow and lots of shade.  How about modding it by spray painting the top white (higher albedo) while painting the bottom of the brim black (facilitate the absorption of heat from the head)?

And the loin cloth is happening, Tuck. Wait 'till you see the pics from Grand Mesa in a few weeks. ;-)
Re: [Minimalist Runner:115329] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Highlander 7/14/12 11:12 AM
Nice, El Jefe! I can't imagine running in a floppy hat (the motion on my head muckles with my bludgeoned brain). However, a hat makes a big difference on my bike on long hot days (I wear a Tilley cotton hat, soaked as oft as possible). How you run in the hot and humid combo is beyond me. I ran a bit in it out east one summer in PA (90 degrees, 100% humididty), and ten miles felt like 20, with the last two miles feeling like twelve! 

With abandon,
Patrick

It's all good (but is it the Best Good?).

On Jul 14, 2012, at 11:29 AM, el jefe <cr...@austin.rr.com> wrote:

i started running in a garden hat this summer.....loose weave straw, and i get it soaked before the run...i also wet my body before runs, and during, if i can.....the giant hat really helps....it holds moisture in the straw, and acts as an evaportative system.....the large brim shades the neck, face, and shoulders......i have to admit, after not wearing a hat for all these years, the large, light gardening hat has made a big difference in the high temps this summer....who knew.....here is the model i use, i think i got it at home depot for about five bux...<garden hat.jpg>cheerx, el jefe
Re: [Minimalist Runner:115334] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance JZ 7/14/12 11:15 AM
Since you mentioned performance, I remember seeing that Deena Castor used an ice vest before competition, and I found this (haven't read much of it yet), but: "Conclusions: Wearing an ice vest before cross-country performance in warm, humid conditions allowed athletes to start and finish the competition with a lower Tc than did those who did not wear a vest."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1748408/
Re: [Minimalist Runner:115334] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Tuck 7/14/12 11:28 AM
"Wait 'till you see the pics from Grand Mesa in a few weeks. ;-)"
 
LOL.  You're assuming I'll want to... :)

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 1:48 PM, Jason Robillard <robil...@gmail.com> wrote:



--
_________________________________
Tucker
 

Re: [Minimalist Runner:115336] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Tuck 7/14/12 11:32 AM
The core temps before and after the event in both groups were well below the level that would start to imply a danger of heat stroke. This is just BS science in my opinion to help Nike sell more crap...
_________________________________
Tucker
 

Re: [Minimalist Runner:115336] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Highlander 7/14/12 11:33 AM
How does a thin wool t compare with a cotton one? Anyone compare this? 

I love a loose, soaked cotton seersucker when resting or on the bike, but for running it drives me nuts. I love my thin wool t's for that. 100+ F, desert humidity tested.


With abandon,
Patrick

It's all good (but is it the Best Good?).
Re: [Minimalist Runner:115335] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance el jefe 7/14/12 11:33 AM
the elements of this hat that make it desireable above other is, very light....large brim for shade, can get it wet and it works as an evaporative on the head, cheap, draw string for wind, and to tie it to my waist when i want to take it off, and its weird enough looking that i get a second look from motorists, which makes me twice as safe..it works far better than i would have imagined in high temps...should have done it a lot sooner......el jefe
----- Original Message -----
Re: [Minimalist Runner:115334] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Jason Robillard 7/14/12 11:34 AM
That's what makes it fun... beautiful mountain scenery corrupted by my scantily-clad fat ass.
Re: [Minimalist Runner:115334] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Viking Runner 7/14/12 11:35 AM


From: Jason Robillard <robil...@gmail.com>
To: huar...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, July 14, 2012 1:49:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Minimalist Runner:115334] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance
Re: [Minimalist Runner:115334] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Jason Robillard 7/14/12 11:36 AM
I wonder if that impacts performance in the beginning since muscles would be so cold (a point Ben Hienrich makes in "Why we Run"). It would be a moot point for an ultra, but still curious.

The ice vest may be a good option for aid stations if a crew can keep ice from melting...
Re: [Minimalist Runner:115342] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance el jefe 7/14/12 12:00 PM
i am a baseball coach, and when i was in london i had a member take me to the lords ....it was great, but there was, of course, a dress code....i got to hit in the cages there........i watched a lot of cricket while i was there, and i met  ian botham, on an airplane...i recognized him because i had been watching a friends cricket videos......very nice guy......this was in the mid eighties....prince fiedlers swing is the closest thing to a cricket swing in baseball..he won the home run derby, by the way........el jefe
----- Original Message -----
From: Carl Asker
Re: [Minimalist Runner:115344] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Viking Runner 7/14/12 12:06 PM
...he was the rock star of cricket back then....wild.....smoked dope..got in trouble many times.. etc...but an incredible clutch player...
 
carl
who was a big fan of the west indies...then the dominant force in the world (70s and to the mid 80s)....with fast bowlers sending people to the hospital left and right...dominant like the soviet union hockey team...
aahh those were the days...


From: el jefe <cr...@austin.rr.com>
To: huar...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, July 14, 2012 3:01:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Minimalist Runner:115344] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance
Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance runs_with_kona 7/14/12 12:07 PM
I think the bedouins know a thing about staying cool in hot dry weather.

why do bedouins wear black robes ?

http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-65287.html
Re: [Minimalist Runner:115348] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Viking Runner 7/14/12 12:15 PM
.....they also drink hot tea....
 
carl

 


From: runs_with_kona <shin....@gmail.com>
To: huar...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, July 14, 2012 3:07:05 PM
Subject: [Minimalist Runner:115348] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance
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Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Jason Robillard 7/14/12 12:17 PM
A solar chimney effect. That's pretty sweet. The clothing would have to be robe-like, though, which is impractical for racing.

I'd think thin, ventilated cloth that was white on the outside and black on the inside would be ideal for running in hot, dry weather. It would aid heat elimination via radiation, allow convection, and shouldn't affect conduction. Trapping air near the skin during heavy exercise would be useless because it would prevent evaporation and likely heat above 98.6.
Re: [Minimalist Runner:115346] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance el jefe 7/14/12 12:19 PM
yes, i know...i was a fiddle player in a band touring the english pubs.......he went with me a lot.....he felt like the hash bust was a setup by his enemies in the cricket world...or so he said.....as i remember he had been made captain of the national team, and they didn't win, so he says they set him up for the bust so they could take his captaincy......there were, of course, other issues also....he was a rough guy, loved to fight and drink.....if he were american, he would have been a great running back.....he also didn't play english style cricket, and that caused him issues with the stodgy higher ups when his team didn't win... .....ian played the west indian style cricket.....el jefe
----- Original Message -----
From: Carl Asker
Re: [Minimalist Runner:115348] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance el jefe 7/14/12 12:21 PM
i have seen them in black robes, but i sure don't know when or why they would.......
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 2:07 PM
Subject: [Minimalist Runner:115348] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance

I think the bedouins know a thing about staying cool in hot dry weather.

why do bedouins wear black robes ?

http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-65287.html

On Saturday, July 14, 2012 9:39:36 AM UTC-5, Jason Robillard wrote:
http://barefootrunninguniversity.com/2012/07/14/thermoregulation-and-running-a-cool-idea/

My ramblings on core body temp as a detriment to performance. It ties into the discussions about Waterlogged, and is an extension on the moisture-wicking discussions we had awhile ago.

The question- what else can we do to reduce body temps when the natural mechanisms aren't enough? Let's assume we're racing and performance is the goal.

--
"Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..." hosted by Barefoot Ted
 
Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe
Re: [Minimalist Runner:115348] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Jason Robillard 7/14/12 12:23 PM
Since it's difficult to keep water cold in races, most ends up being close to body temperature anyway.

The ice typically added to water bottles or hydration packs could be useful to lower body temp, though.



On Saturday, July 14, 2012 12:15:35 PM UTC-7, Viking Runner wrote:
.....they also drink hot tea....
 
carl

 


From: runs_with_kona <shin....@gmail.com>
To: huar...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, July 14, 2012 3:07:05 PM

Subject: [Minimalist Runner:115348] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance

I think the bedouins know a thing about staying cool in hot dry weather.

why do bedouins wear black robes ?

http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-65287.html

On Saturday, July 14, 2012 9:39:36 AM UTC-5, Jason Robillard wrote:
http://barefootrunninguniversity.com/2012/07/14/thermoregulation-and-running-a-cool-idea/

My ramblings on core body temp as a detriment to performance. It ties into the discussions about Waterlogged, and is an extension on the moisture-wicking discussions we had awhile ago.

The question- what else can we do to reduce body temps when the natural mechanisms aren't enough? Let's assume we're racing and performance is the goal.

--
"Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..." hosted by Barefoot Ted
 
Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe
Re: [Minimalist Runner:115350] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Viking Runner 7/14/12 12:24 PM
..aqualung my friend....:-)
 
carl


From: el jefe <cr...@austin.rr.com>
To: huar...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, July 14, 2012 3:20:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Minimalist Runner:115350] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance

yes, i know...i was a fiddle player in a band touring the english pubs.......he went with me a lot.....he felt like the hash bust was a setup by his enemies in the cricket world...or so he said.....as i remember he had been made captain of the national team, and they didn't win, so he says they set him up for the bust so they could take his captaincy......there were, of course, other issues also....he was a rough guy, loved to fight and drink.....if he were american, he would have been a great running back.....he also didn't play english style cricket, and that caused him issues with the stodgy higher ups when his team didn't win... .....ian played the west indian style cricket.....el jefe
----- Original Message -----
From: Carl Asker
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Minimalist Runner:115346] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance

...he was the rock star of cricket back then....wild.....smoked dope..got in trouble many times.. etc...but an incredible clutch player...
 
carl
who was a big fan of the west indies...then the dominant force in the world (70s and to the mid 80s)....with fast bowlers sending people to the hospital left and right...dominant like the soviet union hockey team...
aahh those were the days...


From: el jefe <cr...@austin.rr.com>
To: huar...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, July 14, 2012 3:01:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Minimalist Runner:115344] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance

i am a baseball coach, and when i was in london i had a member take me to the lords ....it was great, but there was, of course, a dress code....i got to hit in the cages there........i watched a lot of cricket while i was there, and i met  ian botham, on an airplane...i recognized him because i had been watching a friends cricket videos......very nice guy......this was in the mid eighties....prince fiedlers swing is the closest thing to a cricket swing in baseball..he won the home run derby, by the way........el jefe
----- Original Message -----
From: Carl Asker
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Minimalist Runner:115342] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance



From: Jason Robillard <robil...@gmail.com>
To: huar...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, July 14, 2012 1:49:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Minimalist Runner:115334] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance

That's exactly what I was thinking as far as a hat... reasonable air flow and lots of shade.  How about modding it by spray painting the top white (higher albedo) while painting the bottom of the brim black (facilitate the absorption of heat from the head)?

And the loin cloth is happening, Tuck. Wait 'till you see the pics from Grand Mesa in a few weeks. ;-)



On Saturday, July 14, 2012 10:29:11 AM UTC-7, el jefe wrote:
i started running in a garden hat this summer.....loose weave straw, and i get it soaked before the run...i also wet my body before runs, and during, if i can.....the giant hat really helps....it holds moisture in the straw, and acts as an evaportative system.....the large brim shades the neck, face, and shoulders......i have to admit, after not wearing a hat for all these years, the large, light gardening hat has made a big difference in the high temps this summer....who knew.....here is the model i use, i think i got it at home depot for about five bux...cheerx, el jefe
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Minimalist Runner:115326] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance

I use JZ and Gordo's suggestion now, but not as often as I should. The major issue I had was relying on drinking more to regulate core temps. After all, that's the advice typically given. I didn't view overheating as an overheating issue, rather a hydration/electrolyte issue. Reframing the problem makes problem-solving much easier as core temp can be managed before syptoms arise.

Anyone ever try running with a giant sun hat?

On Saturday, July 14, 2012 10:11:48 AM UTC-7, JZ wrote:
Similar to Gordo's suggestion, Noakes recommends putting water on the skin (sponging) to help reduce heat stress.  I've been dipping my (moisture wicking) shirt into a stream about halfway through my runs lately.  I don't know if this helps reduce my core temp, but it certainly feels good.

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:25 AM, gordo <gaj...@gmail.com> wrote:
Well for something like WS, laying down in the water for a few minutes at every stream crossing comes to mind. Doing that without wicking clothing might be pretty uncomfortable, though.

Gordo


On Saturday, July 14, 2012 7:39:36 AM UTC-7, Jason Robillard wrote:
http://barefootrunninguniversity.com/2012/07/14/thermoregulation-and-running-a-cool-idea/

My ramblings on core body temp as a detriment to performance. It ties into the discussions about Waterlogged, and is an extension on the moisture-wicking discussions we had awhile ago.

The question- what else can we do to reduce body temps when the natural mechanisms aren't enough? Let's assume we're racing and performance is the goal.

--
"Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..." hosted by Barefoot Ted
 
Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/ group/huaraches/subscribe



--
Joe

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Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance runs_with_kona 7/14/12 12:25 PM
The running clothes the Tarahumara wear ?  
Re: [Minimalist Runner:115338] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance JZ 7/14/12 1:44 PM
> The core temps before and after the event in both groups were well below
> the level that would start to imply a danger of heat stroke.

I agree. The article does mention one potential use of the vest could
be to reduce heat illness, but I was more focused on the potential to
improve performance rather than decrease the risk of heat stroke.

This article,  http://jap.physiology.org/content/96/5/1867.long,
(which I also have not thoroughly read - so many words ;) ) states
that "The 5-km run time was significantly lower (P < 0.05) by 13 s in
V than C, with a faster pace most evident during the last two-thirds
of the run."  (V= those who wore the vest prior to the race and C= no
vest used).  Not a huge difference in performance, but it's something.

I have a feeling that the effect of the ice vest might have more to do
with the central governor than anything else (so the brain allows the
body to go faster, if the core temp is slightly cooler).


On 7/14/12, Tuck <tuc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The core temps before and after the event in both groups were well below
> the level that would start to imply a danger of heat stroke. This is just
> BS science in my opinion to help Nike sell more crap...
>
Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Juha Myllylä 7/14/12 1:56 PM
Well, according to one finnish science magazine, darker tee would be
better. White tee reflects heat radiation back. Unfortunately, it does
not only apply to radiation from sun, it does also apply to heat
radiation from your body.

This is becoming too complicated, just do not use the shirt when it
gets hot.

On 14 heinä, 20:11, Nick J <nick.je...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Nice post Jason, this was my thinking a few weeks back when I posted
> something similar on here.  I'm pretty much sold on this idea now and will
> be looking out for some organic white cotton tees. Hopefully it'll get hot
> here again soon.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Saturday, 14 July 2012 16:39:36 UTC+2, Jason Robillard wrote:
>
> >http://barefootrunninguniversity.com/2012/07/14/thermoregulation-and-...
>
> > My ramblings on core body temp as a detriment to performance. It ties into
> > the discussions about *Waterlogged*, and is an extension on the
Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Jason Robillard 7/14/12 2:03 PM

I'm more curious about the coloring of a hat which would provide shade.

On that note- I'm assuming a hat would be an advantage. Any potential disadvantages?
Re: [Minimalist Runner:115363] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance JZ 7/14/12 3:02 PM
"Any potential disadvantages?"

it could potentially trap heat against your head (which is why I got a
straw hat with vent holes - not sure it makes a difference, but it
can't hurt)

I think simply getting a light colored hat would probably be
sufficient.  Painting it would greatly reduce breathability, i would
think.  I think I have seen "lifeguard" hats that come with a dark
underside, but that seems necessary only if you are on a highly
reflective surface, like a beach
Re: [Minimalist Runner:115364] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Highlander 7/14/12 3:31 PM
The dark underside absorbs body heat, facilitating heat transfer away from the noggin, presuming a lighter outside.

With abandon,
Patrick

It's all good (but is it the Best Good?).
www.MindYourHeadCoop.org
Re: [Minimalist Runner:115365] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance JZ 7/14/12 3:51 PM
> The dark underside absorbs body heat, facilitating heat transfer away from
> the noggin, presuming a lighter outside.

Interesting.  In that case, that might be worth having, then.
--
Joe
Re: [Minimalist Runner:115365] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Jason Robillard 7/14/12 4:08 PM
I think the vent holes/ straw hat would allow sufficient airflow.
Re: [Minimalist Runner:115339] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Denise Skidmore 7/14/12 4:15 PM
When I was listening to the description of the fancy tech fabric in the film, I was thinking that it sounded like wool.

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 2:33 PM, Deacon Patrick <lamon...@mac.com> wrote:
How does a thin wool t compare with a cotton one? Anyone compare this? 

I love a loose, soaked cotton seersucker when resting or on the bike, but for running it drives me nuts. I love my thin wool t's for that. 100+ F, desert humidity tested.
Re: [Minimalist Runner:115365] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Jason Robillard 7/14/12 5:12 PM
Question- what were the supposed benefits of our ancestors' thick, black hair? Why was black selectively preferred over light hair?
Re: [Minimalist Runner:115335] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance JZ 7/14/12 5:13 PM
"I ran a bit in it out east one summer in PA (90 degrees, 100%
humididty), and ten miles felt like 20, with the last two miles
feeling like twelve! "

Fun, ain't it?  Luckily for those running the Lone Ranger 24 hour
ultra today in Philly, the weather is cooler than usual, thanks to
some rain and cloud cover.  In past years, it has been soo hot (and
humid) that I really don't understand how they can do it.

On 7/14/12, Deacon Patrick <lamon...@mac.com> wrote:
> Nice, El Jefe! I can't imagine running in a floppy hat (the motion on my
> head muckles with my bludgeoned brain). However, a hat makes a big
> difference on my bike on long hot days (I wear a Tilley cotton hat, soaked
> as oft as possible). How you run in the hot and humid combo is beyond me. I
> ran a bit in it out east one summer in PA (90 degrees, 100% humididty), and
> ten miles felt like 20, with the last two miles feeling like twelve!
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
> It's all good (but is it the Best Good?).
> www.MindYourHeadCoop.org
>
> On Jul 14, 2012, at 11:29 AM, el jefe <cr...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> i started running in a garden hat this summer.....loose weave straw, and i
>> get it soaked before the run...i also wet my body before runs, and during,
>> if i can.....the giant hat really helps....it holds moisture in the straw,
>> and acts as an evaportative system.....the large brim shades the neck,
>> face, and shoulders......i have to admit, after not wearing a hat for all
>> these years, the large, light gardening hat has made a big difference in
>> the high temps this summer....who knew.....here is the model i use, i
>> think i got it at home depot for about five bux...<garden hat.jpg>cheerx,
>> My ramblings on core body temp as a detriment to performance. It ties into
>> the discussions about Waterlogged, and is an extension on the
>> moisture-wicking discussions we had awhile ago.
>>
>> The question- what else can we do to reduce body temps when the natural
>> mechanisms          aren't enough? Let's assume we're racing and
>> performance is the goal.
Re: [Minimalist Runner:115335] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Barefoot Athena 7/14/12 5:32 PM
Nice article.  I don't like those tech shirts at all.  I do feel like they interfere with my body's ability to regulate temperature.

Thanks for helping me feel ok about wearing cotton, even though so many people insist that it's inferior...
Re: [Minimalist Runner:115304] Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Tuck 7/14/12 6:21 PM
It would work the same way as the black robe, wouldn't it?  (Says the
blonde whose head overheats in the sun...)
_________________________________
Tucker
Re: [Minimalist Runner:115335] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Luis Manuel 7/14/12 6:44 PM
Hat and clothing needed for hard work in a hot and humid jungle, day in and day out... Sugar, sugar...


On Saturday, July 14, 2012 2:33:42 PM UTC-4, el jefe wrote:
the elements of this hat that make it desireable above other is, very light....large brim for shade, can get it wet and it works as an evaporative on the head, cheap, draw string for wind, and to tie it to my waist when i want to take it off, and its weird enough looking that i get a second look from motorists, which makes me twice as safe..it works far better than i would have imagined in high temps...should have done it a lot sooner......el jefe
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Minimalist Runner:115335] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance

Nice, El Jefe! I can't imagine running in a floppy hat (the motion on my head muckles with my bludgeoned brain). However, a hat makes a big difference on my bike on long hot days (I wear a Tilley cotton hat, soaked as oft as possible). How you run in the hot and humid combo is beyond me. I ran a bit in it out east one summer in PA (90 degrees, 100% humididty), and ten miles felt like 20, with the last two miles feeling like twelve! 

With abandon,
Patrick

It's all good (but is it the Best Good?).

On Jul 14, 2012, at 11:29 AM, el jefe <cr...@austin.rr.com> wrote:

i started running in a garden hat this summer.....loose weave straw, and i get it soaked before the run...i also wet my body before runs, and during, if i can.....the giant hat really helps....it holds moisture in the straw, and acts as an evaportative system.....the large brim shades the neck, face, and shoulders......i have to admit, after not wearing a hat for all these years, the large, light gardening hat has made a big difference in the high temps this summer....who knew.....here is the model i use, i think i got it at home depot for about five bux...<garden hat.jpg>cheerx, el jefe
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Minimalist Runner:115326] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance

I use JZ and Gordo's suggestion now, but not as often as I should. The major issue I had was relying on drinking more to regulate core temps. After all, that's the advice typically given. I didn't view overheating as an overheating issue, rather a hydration/electrolyte issue. Reframing the problem makes problem-solving much easier as core temp can be managed before syptoms arise.

Anyone ever try running with a giant sun hat?

On Saturday, July 14, 2012 10:11:48 AM UTC-7, JZ wrote:
Similar to Gordo's suggestion, Noakes recommends putting water on the skin (sponging) to help reduce heat stress.  I've been dipping my (moisture wicking) shirt into a stream about halfway through my runs lately.  I don't know if this helps reduce my core temp, but it certainly feels good.

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:25 AM, gordo <gaj...@gmail.com> wrote:
Well for something like WS, laying down in the water for a few minutes at every stream crossing comes to mind. Doing that without wicking clothing might be pretty uncomfortable, though.

Gordo


On Saturday, July 14, 2012 7:39:36 AM UTC-7, Jason Robillard wrote:
http://barefootrunninguniversity.com/2012/07/14/thermoregulation-and-running-a-cool-idea/

My ramblings on core body temp as a detriment to performance. It ties into the discussions about Waterlogged, and is an extension on the moisture-wicking discussions we had awhile ago.

The question- what else can we do to reduce body temps when the natural mechanisms aren't enough? Let's assume we're racing and performance is the goal.

--
"Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..." hosted by Barefoot Ted
 
Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe



--
Joe

--
"Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..." hosted by Barefoot Ted
 
Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe

--
"Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..." hosted by Barefoot Ted
 
Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe

--
"Minimalist Runner - Barefoot, Sandals, Shoes..." hosted by Barefoot Ted
 
Membership Options: http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/subscribe
Re: [Minimalist Runner:115305] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance gordo 7/14/12 7:29 PM
On Saturday, July 14, 2012 10:19:31 AM UTC-7, Jason Robillard wrote:
Anyone ever try running with a giant sun hat? 

Actually, yes. Mountain Hardware makes a nice one.

Gordo
Re: [Minimalist Runner:115304] Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Jason Robillard 7/14/12 7:30 PM
Would the hair allow enough air flow to create a convection effect? Or would the hair trap air, thus insulating the head and shoulders?
Re: [Minimalist Runner:115335] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Jason Robillard 7/14/12 7:45 PM




In true American fashion, I think I made a time-tested product better. :-)  I'll test it out tomorrow.
Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Juha Myllylä 7/15/12 2:24 AM
Well, I doubt that this would be so simple. Tech clothes are also
usually much lighter and allow wind to chill body much more than
cotton shirts. And when sweat evaporates on the surface of the shirt,
it cools the shirt, it should have some effect to body also..

That Xbionic -video was so much full of bullshit. Those high tech
running conditions were so unrealistic and severe dehydration in 15
minutes? Yeah, sure. That guy had most probably done some heat
adaption training before he tried running in xbionics.

On 15 heinä, 05:45, Jason Robillard <robilla...@gmail.com> wrote:
> <https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-MWnzgxDuNjU/UAIupDN0EGI/AAAAAAAAAW...>
>
> <https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ivcrqlHhIBo/UAIuZ54SopI/AAAAAAAAAW...>
> In true American fashion, I think I made a time-tested product better. :-)
> I'll test it out tomorrow.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Saturday, July 14, 2012 6:44:18 PM UTC-7, Luis Manuel wrote:
>
> > Hat and clothing needed for hard work in a hot and humid jungle, day in
> > and day out... Sugar, sugar...
>
> >http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&sa=X&biw=1024&bih=677&tbm=isch&prm...
>
> > On Saturday, July 14, 2012 2:33:42 PM UTC-4, el jefe wrote:
>
> >>  *the elements of this hat that make it desireable above other is, very
> >> light....large brim for shade, can get it wet and it works as an
> >> evaporative on the head, cheap, draw string for wind, and to tie it to my
> >> waist when i want to take it off, and its weird enough looking that i get a
> >> second look from motorists, which makes me twice as safe..it works far
> >> better than i would have imagined in high temps...should have done it a lot
> >> sooner......el jefe*
>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> *From:* Deacon Patrick <lamontg...@mac.com>
> >> *To:* huar...@googlegroups.com
> >> *Sent:* Saturday, July 14, 2012 1:12 PM
> >> *Subject:* Re: [Minimalist Runner:115335] Re: Thermoregulation and
> >> Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance
>
> >> Nice, El Jefe! I can't imagine running in a floppy hat (the motion on my
> >> head muckles with my bludgeoned brain). However, a hat makes a big
> >> difference on my bike on long hot days (I wear a Tilley cotton hat, soaked
> >> as oft as possible). How you run in the hot and humid combo is beyond me. I
> >> ran a bit in it out east one summer in PA (90 degrees, 100% humididty), and
> >> ten miles felt like 20, with the last two miles feeling like twelve!
>
> >> With abandon,
> >> Patrick
>
> >> It's all good (but is it the Best Good?).
> >>www.MindYourHeadCoop.org
>
> >> On Jul 14, 2012, at 11:29 AM, el jefe <cr...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >>   *i started running in a garden hat this summer.....loose weave straw,
> >> and i get it soaked before the run...i also wet my body before runs, and
> >> during, if i can.....the giant hat really helps....it holds moisture in the
> >> straw, and acts as an evaportative system.....the large brim shades the
> >> neck, face, and shoulders......i have to admit, after not wearing a hat for
> >> all these years, the large, light gardening hat has made a big difference
> >> in the high temps this summer....who knew.....here is the model i use, i
> >> think i got it at home depot for about five bux...<garden hat.jpg>cheerx,
> >> el jefe*
>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> *From:* Jason Robillard <robilla...@gmail.com>
> >> *To:* huar...@googlegroups.com
> >> *Sent:* Saturday, July 14, 2012 12:19 PM
> >> *Subject:* Re: [Minimalist Runner:115326] Re: Thermoregulation and
> >> Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance
>
> >> I use JZ and Gordo's suggestion now, but not as often as I should. The
> >> major issue I had was relying on drinking more to regulate core temps.
> >> After all, that's the advice typically given. I didn't view overheating as
> >> an overheating issue, rather a hydration/electrolyte issue. Reframing the
> >> problem makes problem-solving much easier as core temp can be managed
> >> before syptoms arise.
>
> >> Anyone ever try running with a giant sun hat?
>
> >> On Saturday, July 14, 2012 10:11:48 AM UTC-7, JZ wrote:
>
> >>> Similar to Gordo's suggestion, Noakes recommends putting water on the
> >>> skin (sponging) to help reduce heat stress.  I've been dipping my (moisture
> >>> wicking) shirt into a stream about halfway through my runs lately.  I don't
> >>> know if this helps reduce my core temp, but it certainly feels good.
>
> >>> On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:25 AM, gordo <gaj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> Well for something like WS, laying down in the water for a few minutes
> >>>> at every stream crossing comes to mind. Doing that without wicking clothing
> >>>> might be pretty uncomfortable, though.
>
> >>>> Gordo
>
> >>>> On Saturday, July 14, 2012 7:39:36 AM UTC-7, Jason Robillard wrote:
>
> >>>>> http://**barefootrunninguniversity.com/**2012/07/14/thermoregulation-*
> >>>>> *and-running-a-cool-idea/<http://barefootrunninguniversity.com/2012/07/14/thermoregulation-and-...>
>
> >>>>> My ramblings on core body temp as a detriment to performance. It ties
> >>>>> into the discussions about *Waterlogged*, and is an extension on the
Re: [Minimalist Runner:115385] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Denise Skidmore 7/15/12 4:54 AM

You might try dye instead of paint if  breatheability suffers.

Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Jason Robillard 7/15/12 6:24 AM
Even though I seriously question the effectiveness of the x Bioninc clothing versus bare skin, you're misinterpreting the cause. The host wasn't dehydrated, which is the take-away from Noakes. Dehydration isn't the cause of overheating- generating heat beyond your body's capabilities to dissipate the heat causes overheating. Anything done to interrupt that process could result in overheating.

If you think tech shirts will keep you cool in hot weather based on that "wind through the shirt" logic, by all means, keep wearing them.
Re: [Minimalist Runner:115385] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Jason Robillard 7/15/12 6:27 AM
Good idea, Denise. The paint will probably chip off easily. Odds are good this idea will be a complete failure, so I'll probably just go back to a plain unaltered straw hat.
Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Juha Myllylä 7/15/12 7:27 AM
"Severe dehydration" was said on the video. I understand why you used
that video, but there still were so much bullshit in it that I
couldn't resist..

I'm thinking about first law of thermodynamics or something like
that... I wonder if just a technical shirt would matter so much. It
probably slows a heat dissipation, but I'm not sure that it would
prevent it. Same amount of heat gets dissipated from system (runner
wearing a tech shirt) anyway?
Re: [Minimalist Runner:115395] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance el jefe 7/15/12 8:43 AM
that stuff might work in very dry heat where there is a breeze, but maybe not so much in the humid sticky heat with very little air movement....or so it seems...i'm just guessing of course....
----- Original Message -----
Re: [Minimalist Runner:115395] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance gordo 7/15/12 9:02 AM
I wear synthetic shirts in dry heat when I'm in and out of the water and need some sun protection. They only cool you for a short time after you get out of the water because they dry so fast.

Gordo
Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Barefoot Bazza 7/15/12 2:33 PM
This is really interesting, Jason (I'm sorry I spent a fortune on those fancy shirts...). I run here in Australia (Gold Coast) where it can get really hot and humid. Would sunscreen effect one's ability to sweat and regulate properly? I can't imagine that anything over 45 minutes under our sun without a shirt and sunscreen would be good. Or perhaps just stick with the cotton shirt? 

BB


On Sunday, July 15, 2012 12:39:36 AM UTC+10, Jason Robillard wrote:
http://barefootrunninguniversity.com/2012/07/14/thermoregulation-and-running-a-cool-idea/

My ramblings on core body temp as a detriment to performance. It ties into the discussions about Waterlogged, and is an extension on the moisture-wicking discussions we had awhile ago.


The question- what else can we do to reduce body temps when the natural mechanisms aren't enough? Let's assume we're racing and performance is the goal.
Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Jason Robillard 7/15/12 5:35 PM
No idea, BB. I have heard of people complaining about sweat and sunscreen, but have never investigated the issue. Check out the comments on my post... some of my readers are proving some interesting analysis.

I'll be writing a post about running shirtless in the near future, based on the idea of thermoregulation and increasing vitamin D production as a means of preventing internal cancers.
Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Barefoot Bazza 7/17/12 3:13 AM
That sounds good, Jason. I'm looking forward to it. Also to losing the last few cms off the waist so that I can go shirtless with pride..:)!
Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Abu 7/19/12 4:44 AM
Hi, This is my first post, I hope I can contribute as this topic is close to my heart.
I struggle to cope with high temperatures and almost 30 years ago though that this would prevent me running a marathon. Since then I have run many marathons and ultras without a heat issue. ( beyond the natural "adapt pace for condition" criteria)
The following works for me:
Avoid all forms of dri wick clothing, including socks ( not really appropriate on this thread!) ! They dry my body and cause me to sweat more in an attempt to cool down and lead to dehydration and heat build up.
Cotton T's are great, you can wet them and they stay wet longer aiding cooling. We have to run in club vests and recently these were changed to dri wick and again I struggled , I now wear a cotton T underneath which I can wet.
I have long hair and keeping it wet from the start helps cooling. I was surprised when I had a crew for a change how I struggled. As my hair is thinning on top I have started looking at alternatives, bufffs, wet buffs, caps with vents etc and have not found a substitute yet.This past June at our local Comrades Marathon Expo I bought a cap with a foreign legion style with the neck piece in a moisture retaining material. The idea is to soak it and then have the cooling on your neck as the blood works its way to the brain.Sounds okay in theory but I have not had a chance to test it yet.
Asses the weather before the run and if it looks hot and dry start well hydrated.
I run with a water so that I can drink when required and see what I drink.
At our aid stations we get water sachets and these go over the head and I spray arms and legs.
Use it don't use it, not backed up by scientific research just some of my experience.
Re: [Minimalist Runner:115803] Re: Thermoregulation and Moisture-wicking Materials; A Major Detriment to Performance Doug Sims 7/19/12 8:32 AM
"Asses the weather" This reminds me of the flight attendant movie with
Mike Meyers.
http://youtu.be/7FQESCVkXnU?t=1m34s

The movie is crap, but that line is really funny.
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