Childfree Abby - My Daughter doesn't want anything to do with me!

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Childfree Abby - My Daughter doesn't want anything to do with me! Childfree Abby 9/8/03 6:23 PM
Dear Amy: I have three daughters. Six years ago, my middle daughter came to
my house early one Saturday and said that she was no longer related to me
and that I was never to contact her or her family again. She lives nearby
and keeps in slight contact with her younger sister, but I have not seen my
grandkids for this long. They have expressed a desire to see me, but I
understand she forbids this.

I have a close friend who is a Lutheran minister who has offered to talk to
her, but I do not want a go-between. I have written her and all her
offspring out of my will and all of their pictures have been removed from my
home.

Now my question is should anyone make an attempt to cement some of this
family again or should we all go on like this? Our family is accustomed to
letting things age, but I am in my 70s and how long can this keep aging?

The daughter who is estranged is in therapy for depression and has changed
to a far out religion.

-- Upset

Dear Upset: Family estrangements aren't like fine wines -- they don't "age"
well. And though I can tell that you're so upset by this, I don't think
you'd be asking me this question if you didn't already think you needed to
try to promote some healing here.

I hope you understand that your daughter's desire to cut off all ties with
you might be the result of her depression or because of pressure from this
religious group she's joined. If that is so, please rise above your wounded
feelings to try to get her some help.

Take up your minister-friend's offer to mediate this rift. You're lucky to
have someone close to you willing to get involved and who probably has the
skills to help.


Dear Upset,

The thing about estrangements and what my esteemed counterpart seems to
miss,  is that *NO One* gets up one fine morning and says "Gee, it's a
lovely day, the sun is shining, the birds are singing, I think I will cut
off all ties with my Mother, and forbid my children ever to see her."  In
short, there is much more to this than meets the eye.  Such actions are not
lightly taken, and not without good reason, at least in the view of the
person who takes them.  And, the person to whom they are directed might be
well advised to take a long hard look in the mirror.

The impression I have of your letter is that it displays about as much
warmth as Innuvik in mid January, and all the empathy of that paragon of
human kindness,  Torqumada.  To paraphrase my counterpart; I hope you
realize that your daughter's depression might be rooted in her relationship
with you, and cutting ties might be the only way she can free herself from a
toxic relationship.  As for the religion she has chosen, it may give her the
comfort and support that she needs.  I note that you never mentioned what
religion it is, is it because you don't know, don't care, or feel that any
religion outside of what you believe in is "far out"?

Yes, I do believe that your minister friend should offer to mediate, the
experience might be enlightening for everyone involved. But be advised,
facades crack, skeletons in the closets rattle, and may reveal a lot more
than you had intended.

Childfree Abby

--
The ChildFree Abby Archives - http://www.dismal-light.net/childfreeabby/


Childfree Abby - My Daughter doesn't want anything to do with me! Stella Hackell 9/9/03 10:04 AM
"Childfree Abby" <morg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<bjja26$j9nmu$1...@ID-202214.news.uni-berlin.de>...

> Dear Amy: I have three daughters. Six years ago, my middle daughter came to
> my house early one Saturday and said that she was no longer related to me
> and that I was never to contact her or her family again.

[snip]

> I have written her and all her
> offspring out of my will and all of their pictures have been removed from my
> home.

This is the part I find weird. The daughter says "You're not my
family," (for whatever reasons), and Mom responds with "Oh yeah, well
you're not my family either"??? What kind of parent would pretend she
no longer had a daughter or grandchildren? Some people I know do it if
the child marries out of the family religion, but that has always
seemed barbaric to me, and that doesn't sound like what happened here.

 
> Now my question is should anyone make an attempt to cement some of this
> family again or should we all go on like this?

Obviously no one involved wants to re-cement the family.

I just can't imagine a parent--well, any reasonable parent--doing
something like that. I have known some parents whose adult children
were estranged, and the parents reacted in all kinds of ways, good and
bad, but none of them ever responded with "You don't want to be my
kid, FINE! I'm not your parent!"

I guess I have had a sheltered existence.


Stella

Childfree Abby - My Daughter doesn't want anything to do with me! Chrys 9/9/03 10:11 AM
"Stella Hackell" <ste...@lmi.net> wrote in message
news:a9c69eb4.0309090904.3d4fa7d7@posting.google.com...

If her daughter shut her out of her life, why should she then benefit from
being in the will when her mother dies?  If seeing the pictures of her
daughter causes the mother to have to feel pain, why should those pictures
be left up?  This doesn't sound that unreasonable to me.


Childfree Abby - My Daughter doesn't want anything to do with me! Childfree Abby 9/9/03 5:09 PM

> >
> > Obviously no one involved wants to re-cement the family.
> >
> > I just can't imagine a parent--well, any reasonable parent--doing
> > something like that. I have known some parents whose adult children
> > were estranged, and the parents reacted in all kinds of ways, good and
> > bad, but none of them ever responded with "You don't want to be my
> > kid, FINE! I'm not your parent!"
> >
> > I guess I have had a sheltered existence.
> >
> >
> > Stella
>
> If her daughter shut her out of her life, why should she then benefit from
> being in the will when her mother dies?  If seeing the pictures of her
> daughter causes the mother to have to feel pain, why should those pictures
> be left up?  This doesn't sound that unreasonable to me.
>
>

Truth is.. nowhere in that entire letter did the mother even say she was
suffering pain, or that she missed her daughter.

Childfree Abby

Childfree Abby - My Daughter doesn't want anything to do with me! Jim Paradis 9/11/03 12:02 AM
Stella Hackell wrote:

>> Now my question is should anyone make an attempt to cement some of this
>> family again or should we all go on like this?
>
> Obviously no one involved wants to re-cement the family.
>
> I just can't imagine a parent--well, any reasonable parent--doing
> something like that. I have known some parents whose adult children
> were estranged, and the parents reacted in all kinds of ways, good and
> bad, but none of them ever responded with "You don't want to be my
> kid, FINE! I'm not your parent!"
>
> I guess I have had a sheltered existence.

Well, I have known of those who have been socialized to Keep The Peace
and Keep The Family Together at *any* cost, even if it involved suppressing
the individuality and humanity of individual members.  The mother may
in fact be asking how she can rope the errant daughter back into the
Collective and re-educate her in the manner of Right Thinking that is
appropriate to that family system...

--
There's no "I" in "TEAM".  There is, however an "M" and an "E".  There is
no "U".  Therefore when someone talks about TEAMWORK, what they're
really saying is "It's all about ME; U can buzz off"

Childfree Abby - My Daughter doesn't want anything to do with me! Miz Daisy Cutter 9/11/03 8:35 AM
On Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:09:13 -0300 in
<bjlq3d$kus5h$1...@ID-202214.news.uni-berlin.de>, Childfree Abby slit open a vein
and out did pour the following claret goodness:

<snip>

>Truth is.. nowhere in that entire letter did the mother even say she was
>suffering pain, or that she missed her daughter.
>
>Childfree Abby

Years ago -- at least 15 or 20 years ago -- Ann Landers printed a letter from a
woman who claimed that she had raised her two kids in a "perfect," "harmonious,"
'50s-type home. Now (that is, at the time of the letter's writing), the adult
daughter had broken off all contact with the mother because she claimed her
brother had physically and sexually abused her when they were kids, and the
mother had done nothing about it.

In her letter, Moomie expressed not one iota of empathy, sympathy, or pity for
the daughter; anger at the son; or guilt or remorse for her own lack of
responsibility. It was all "Me, Me, Me, and ME!!!" She protested to Landers,
"Ann, I knew nothing about this. I thought my home life was perfect." Then she
moaned about how she never thought she'd wind up all alone toward the end of her
life. (I guess Duh had by then passed on. No indication whether the daughter
held him, too, responsible for her ordeals.)

I can't remember exactly how Landers responded, but I do recall that she didn't
pick up on this self-pitying tone at all, and I still wish I'd written in to
point it out. Not that it would have shown Moomie that anything was wrong with
her attitude. Still, it would have been a sorta acceptable substitute for
smacking her upside her thick skull in person.

I've known various people who were preyed upon in childhood, including an ex-B/F
with whom I remain friends. His "issues" resulting from the abuse (he was 3 when
a daycare worker raped him) made the relationship unworkable. I never had the
displeasure of meeting his asshole fundie mother, which is good for her, because
I might have punched her fucking lights out.

One thing I always hated about Ann Landers was that she bought completely into
the mythos that all ties to immediate blood relatives must be maintained at any
cost, and that those who have been harmed, even severely and even (especially!)
by family members, "must find it in their hearts to forgive."

While I'm likely to the right of almost everyone else in this NG, I find the
whole concept of "forgiveness" pretty retrograde, politically speaking. In
essense, it puts the burden of one's psychic scars on oneself, rather on those
who inflicted them. I do not mean the *responsibility* of dealing with them, as
everyone in this world must deal with his or her personal "baggage." It's more
like a blame game. Ever hear someone say, "Gee, it's been three years since
Barbara's husband died, and she's still mourning over him. She needs to get on
with life"? As if there's only one correct way to deal with a loss? Kind of like
that.

It's not surprising that it originates in Christianity, which has too often
found it convenient to ignore the wrongs humans do unto each other and then get
away with because they can -- that is, wrongs sanctified by political and social
systems, either right-wing or left-wing (not that there's really much of a
difference between the two when you look closely enough). The New Testament uses
the master-slave relationship as an analogy for the deity-mortal relationship,
indicating its authors saw nothing wrong with slavery. It took nearly two
millennia before all mainstream Xtian denominations declared ownership of other
human beings to be *just plain wrong*.

But neither does it surprise me that the forgiveness obsession has become wildly
popular among the New Age contingent of the self-help subculture, who are
light-years away politically from most American Xtians. A lot, though of course
not all, Americans who investigate "exotic" religions and spiritual practices
are from the same economic stratum as yuppies, BoBos, other white-collar
professionals, "land-poor" or otherwise "shabbily genteel" Yankees, etc. It's
overwhelmingly a demographic that finds displays of anger not only distasteful,
but "low-class."

Actually, in many cases, displays of emotion *at all*. I recall some _Boston
Globe_ writer who grew up in a "Brahmin" family recounting recently how, in her
adolescence, weeping at a funeral got her into trouble with her parents. One of
Rona Jaffe's pulp novels has a very uptight middle-aged Harvard alumnus praising
one of his teenage sons for having attended the other son's funeral (the brother
had hanged himself) in stone-faced, stoic silence.

I think it's one reason among many that the teenage chilluns of such people have
frequently been drawn to violent or quasi-violent interests, like FPS games.
It's not just the political incorrectness that shocks Mums and Dad, but the
element of rage that they perceive, although *most* kids are sharp enough to
realize it's just a game. (Of course, if most such pahrunts can't or won't make
that distinction, it's not hard to imagine that when the crotchfruit of such a
pair opens fire in the corridors of his or her hi sk00l, they blame the software
makers first.)

I understand, at least intellectually, the theory that "forgiveness frees
*you*," not those who hurt you, who may not even ever think about you anymore.
But not everyone values that type of "freedom." Sometimes the anger you derive
from horrible life experiences becomes a driving force in your life for
achievement of various kinds. Sometimes it even becomes a pleasure in itself, as
anyone with a sick sense of humor can attest to.

And quite often, IMHFO, those who glide all over town chirping about
"forgiveness," whether there's a cross or a crystal around their necks, are
simply idiots with a limited grasp of human psychology, unreliable judgment of
character, and -- intellectually and emotionally -- about as deep as a
salt-encrusted lakebed in the Mojave.

-- Daze

-------------------
"Plop-plop" isn't quite correct.  It would be more accurate to say, "I
spent the afternoon giving anal birth to a series of Brillo pads."
-- Ay Eye

Childfree Abby - My Daughter doesn't want anything to do with me! Ezzy 9/12/03 2:05 PM
"Childfree Abby" <morg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<bjja26$j9nmu$1...@ID-202214.news.uni-berlin.de>...
> Dear Amy: I have three daughters. Six years ago, my middle daughter came to
> my house early one Saturday and said that she was no longer related to me
> and that I was never to contact her or her family again. She lives nearby
> and keeps in slight contact with her younger sister, but I have not seen my
> grandkids for this long. They have expressed a desire to see me, but I
> understand she forbids this.
>
> I have a close friend who is a Lutheran minister who has offered to talk to
> her, but I do not want a go-between. I have written her and all her
> offspring out of my will and all of their pictures have been removed from my
> home.
>
> Now my question is should anyone make an attempt to cement some of this
> family again or should we all go on like this? Our family is accustomed to
> letting things age, but I am in my 70s and how long can this keep aging?
>
> The daughter who is estranged is in therapy for depression and has changed
> to a far out religion.
>
> -- Upset
>

     The whole letter is questionable at best.  I can't help but feel
that 75% of the facts missing here.
     No one just walks in to their family home one morning and
announces they no longer want anything to do with their mother without
some kind of precipitating factors.
     Personally, I would have to say from the mother's reaction, the
daughter's course of action is probably for the best.  This has
probably taken a lot of courage and thought.  This is what someone
does when they are trying to break off a toxic or negative
relationship.
     Mom seems awfully proud of the fact that she immediately ran out
and disinheirited the daughter and her family.  It has a real feeling
of "I showed her!" to it.  Her letter for advice seems to be more of
an effort to glean support for "her side" of things, rather than
something stemming from any real desire to make things right.
     Hard to make any judgements without knowing the truth behind the
family dynamic, however I'd say it's mom who's got some growing up to
do.

Ezzy

Childfree Abby - My Daughter doesn't want anything to do with me! snevel...@sonic.net 9/12/03 10:35 PM
Ezzy <ezmerelda_...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>      No one just walks in to their family home one morning and
> announces they no longer want anything to do with their mother without
> some kind of precipitating factors.

This is a characteristic act by someone caught up in any one of a number
of abusive cults.  It's *very* typical of Scientology and it's called
disconnection.

Just another possibility.

Simeon

--
The address in the header *is* actually replyable.
If replying, use mail or post here.  Please, not both

If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention

Childfree Abby - My Daughter doesn't want anything to do with me! circusgirl 9/14/03 11:40 AM
Miz Daisy Cutter <regi...@ihatespam.comcast.net> wrote in message news:<bjq34...@drn.newsguy.com>...
>
[snip]

Just want to say, you are 110% right, and I am having trouble
resisting the urge to print your post out in 30 point high font and
framing it, so to speak. Allowing yourself to be angry sets you FREE,
imho.
circusgirl

Childfree Abby - My Daughter doesn't want anything to do with me! kaylar 9/14/03 4:29 PM
>
> It's not surprising that it originates in Christianity, which has too often
> found it convenient to ignore the wrongs humans do unto each other and then get
> away with because they can -- that is, wrongs sanctified by political and social
> systems, either right-wing or left-wing (not that there's really much of a
> difference between the two when you look closely enough). The New Testament uses
> the master-slave relationship as an analogy for the deity-mortal relationship,
> indicating its authors saw nothing wrong with slavery. It took nearly two
> millennia before all mainstream Xtian denominations declared ownership of other
> human beings to be *just plain wrong*.
>
>


Your remarks remind me of something I was thinking about just a few
nights ago : In the thinking of some Christians, any wrong done to a
human is *really* an offense against  God, and not the human victim,
which is why a person can rape, torture, mutilate , and murder-and
still get into Heaven if he repents sincerely for his offenses
*against God*. I think that's despicable. No wonder the pain and
suffering people cause other people  can be ignored or discounted-The
rape victim, the murder victim, the victim of torture and
mutilation-their suffering is ultimately meaningless, because it
's really GOD the sinner commited his offense against! Whatever the
theological justifications for this stance, it ultimately demeans
human misery, IMO.

OTOH, some rabbis taught that if a person *must* commit a sin, and the
choice comes down to commiting a sin against God, or against your
fellow man : Always sin against God, because He can take care of
Himself, and He  might forgive you, while a weak fellow human cannot.

Re: Childfree Abby - My Daughter doesn't want anything to do with me! noddy...@ymail.com 12/29/12 3:55 PM
On Tuesday, 9 September 2003 02:23:21 UTC+1, Childfree Abby  wrote:
> Dear Amy: I have three daughters. Six years ago, my middle daughter came to
> my house early one Saturday and said that she was no longer related to me
> and that I was never to contact her or her family again. She lives nearby
> and keeps in slight contact with her younger sister, but I have not seen my
> grandkids for this long. They have expressed a desire to see me, but I
> understand she forbids this.
>
> I have a close friend who is a Lutheran minister who has offered to talk to
> her, but I do not want a go-between. I have written her and all her
> offspring out of my will and all of their pictures have been removed from my
> home.

I think you are hurt really otherwise you would not be writing this.  I think you need to examine yourself if you have done wrong to her and swallow your pride write her a letter or something and say sorry.  Parents are not perfect we make mistakes I know i have made a few and its important to say sorry but if she does not forgive and is stubborn that is her problem.  Dont get hard hearted about it and angry I know rejection hurts but pray for her and your family dont leave them out of the will you dont want to be remembered like that, be the better person not the bitter one. Forgive her as well for any hurt she has done, get some help yourself talk to someone your friend and let them help patch this up.  Just forgive and move forward its not easy families never are.
Re: Childfree Abby - My Daughter doesn't want anything to do with me! SkyEyes 12/29/12 10:14 PM
On Dec 29, 4:55 pm, noddynoo...@ymail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, 9 September 2003 02:23:21 UTC+1, Childfree Abby  wrote:
> > Dear Amy: I have three daughters. Six years ago, my middle daughter came to
> > my house early one Saturday and said that she was no longer related to me
> > and that I was never to contact her or her family again. She lives nearby
> > and keeps in slight contact with her younger sister, but I have not seen my
> > grandkids for this long. They have expressed a desire to see me, but I
> > understand she forbids this.
>
> > I have a close friend who is a Lutheran minister who has offered to talk to
> > her, but I do not want a go-between. I have written her and all her
> > offspring out of my will and all of their pictures have been removed from my
> > home.
>
> I think you are hurt really otherwise you would not be writing this.  I think you need to examine yourself if you have done wrong to her and swallow your pride write her a letter or something and say sorry.  Parents are not perfect we make mistakes I know i have made a few and its important to say sorry but if she does not forgive and is stubborn that is her problem.  Dont get hard hearted about it and angry I know rejection hurts but pray for her and your family dont leave them out of the will you dont want to be remembered like that, be the better person not the bitter one. Forgive her as well for any hurt she has done, get some help yourself talk to someone your friend and let them help patch this up.  Just forgive and move forward its not easy families never are.

No, they never are.  That's one of many reasons the regulars on the
group have chosen NOT to be parents.  If you're a parent, which the
above paragraph leads me to believe, you don't belong  here.
Alt.parenting is that way -->.

Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
skyeyes nine at cox dot net OR
skyeyes nine at yahoo dot com
Re: Childfree Abby - My Daughter doesn't want anything to do with me! tom c 12/30/12 11:48 AM

"SkyEyes" <skye...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:3ad6d05a-7a68-4e5c-b7cc-a6d06f402964@v9g2000pbi.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 29, 4:55 pm, noddynoo...@ymail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, 9 September 2003 02:23:21 UTC+1, Childfree Abby wrote:
>No, they never are.  That's one of many reasons the regulars on the
>group have chosen NOT to be parents.  If you're a parent, which the
>above paragraph leads me to believe, you don't belong  here.
>Alt.parenting is that way -->.

>Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
>skyeyes nine at cox dot net OR
>skyeyes nine at yahoo dot com

Only a moron parent and google grouper would necro a post from 2003.