TiNA zine market this year

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TiNA zine market this year Vanessa Berry 8/20/12 6:32 PM
Hi Zine Folks, 
The zines stalls at the TiNA fair this year are $45, plus you need your own public liability insurance - what do you think about this? Is is affecting your decision to have a stall or to attend TiNA? I wrote to the organisers about it and they told me "It's not the TiNA of ten years ago" - so I am trying not to feel too much like an old whinger. Still, I think it's discouraging and kind of kills the zine community aspect of the fair, which was what was good about it in the first place. 
Vanessa.
Re: [zines aus] TiNA zine market this year John Stevens 8/20/12 8:18 PM
$45? That's appalling. Charging at all is a drag, though
understandable in some instances. The fact that that fee doesn't cover
the insurance is the real nail in the coffin. How many people could
expect to make that cost back, not to mention the affiliated travel
costs? Are Adelaide charging for their one a week later? Something
tells me there should be a push to head in that direction instead of
TiNA, though I know there's plenty else that's drawing people up to
Newcastle.

Will be interested to hear what others have to say, too. Can't say
many folk'll be understanding.

-John
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Re: [zines aus] TiNA zine market this year Ianto Ware 8/20/12 8:19 PM
Admittedly, I haven't been to the TINA zine fair in a while so maybe I'm also being an old whinger, but then in between running festivals and working venues, I spend most of my time dealing with insurance and venue set up costs, so I can take a punt at the costs they'd be looking at.

I've never seen an example of a fair requiring its participants to take out their own public liability. Correct me if I'm wrong. If you're a sole trader, you should have it anyway, but they should be able to get blanket cover for participants up to $20mil if they're using a decent agent. There might have been changes to insurance lately, and I'm not an insurance agent, but I'd be surprised if this wasn't possible.

As for the costs, that's a topic for debate and might depend on whether they've managed to win grants to pay for venue rental, table rental etc. From memory, when I ran the zine fair in 2007 we had about 70 people, and about 40 tables. If we'd expected everyone to pay $45 per table that would have made $3,150, which (based on the last comparable events I ran), would probably have just paid for everything sans wages. That said, I would have expected an event like TINA to have secured enough grant funding to avoid passing costs on to their participants to this extent.

Thus, to my eye, I'd say it's a bit high. $20 or so makes sense, but $45 is a bit high. But its entirely possible their grants have been knocked back, Council has failed to provide in-kind support for use of a space and they're simply facing higher costs from the various regulatory bodies, in which case $45 might be the only way to take things forward.

That's my two cents.
cheers,
Ianto
Re: [zines aus] TiNA zine market this year keren woodward 8/20/12 10:08 PM
I'm old and whinge-prone, so... back in my day (yes, roughly 10 years
ago) the festivals did have to fork out a lot of TINA money for public
liability insurance. As I recall, this was why the TINA umbrella was
useful, because it was able to (with funds from local council and
other sources, plus in-kind support) pay for or arrange venues, and
cover the cost of insurance. This meant the festivals could put their
funds into paying for participant travel or accommodation, and
ensuring that people didn't have to pay for a patch of space at the
zine fair.

Maybe the TINA umbrella/fund is gone now, and so this changes things
considerably. I don't know. Perhaps a zine fair or TINA organiser can
clarify this?

In 2003 we asked for zinester donations (zines and/or money), but this
was not compulsory. Yes it's 9 years ago, but still, I think there's
room for an argument that the money-making bits of the festival should
fund the bits that are important but not lucrative (i.e. zine fairs).
Without such arrangements both zinesters and 'zine shoppers' miss out
on things. The zinesters may not get to participate, and the readers
will be mourning the lack of unprofessional material. As we know,
having to pay for something does deter participation. And asking for
free participation is not just about whingeing for free rides, it's
actually arguing that there are some practices we'd like to preserve,
encourage, and protect from becoming 'financially viable' in ways that
many of us don't want them to be.

I wouldn't pay $45 for a stall because I wouldn't make $45. Perhaps if
I quadrupled the price of my zines and started calling them art books
I'd be better adjusted to 'zine culture 2012'? :p

paul
(webgroup posting... feels like ten years ago already)
Re: [zines aus] TiNA zine market this year Vanessa Berry 8/21/12 1:42 AM
Yes, I think TINA has had a lot of its funding cut, according to the person I was in contact with today, so this would explain the increase in costs - although the market is being organised by an events company called Fixx Events, rather than volunteers. Thanks Paul and Ianto for breaking down the costs from your experience, if TiNA were more transparent about where the $45 was going I'd be able to judge the situation with more clarity. I worry about my $45 going to fund the extra "x" in Fixx.
TiNA have put a statement about the market on their facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/TINAFestival/posts/10152045606295422 
As for insurance, in the past few years you've been able to join the Octopod and be included in their insurance, but this wasn't offered this year, so perhaps it isn't available. I think it's this even more so than the increase in the stall fee, which is offputting to people, and it will change the character of the market and make it more professional.
Perhaps this is now an opportunity for more DIY zine events to be organised. And yes, maybe people will choose Adelaide over Newcastle this year. 
Vanessa.
Re: [zines aus] TiNA zine market this year Tim T 8/21/12 4:05 AM
Out of curiosity, how much were costs for the TINA zine fair last year?
Re: TiNA zine market this year Elle 8/21/12 4:15 AM
Thanks for this info Vanessa. I think that no matter how hard the economic climate is, whether TINA are cash strapped or not, this is more an indication of where their priorities are. You can still run an event and keep the costs down *for the people the festival is designed to support and promote, ie the artist*. The fact that the fair has been outsourced to some event management organisation is weird and poor judgement. It sounds to me like TINA are going in a new and ugly strategic direction. 'This is not art' - maybe they are closer to the name of the festival now than ever before. I stopped going to the zine fair when it felt more like a car boot sale market than an actual zine fair, but you know me, I'm pretty hard line. For me this whole TINA thing is a demonstration about how they are moving further and further away from the original intent of the festival. I would be saving my festivity energies for Format (if they have a zine fair?), Sticky's annual zine fair, and the MCA zine fair. I would not pay more than $15 for a table at any event that claims to be dedicated to zines. The TINA table rate is more in keeping with big time craft markets. Which is fine, but don't expect to find zines there. Expect overpriced craft felted owl bullshit. elle.
Re: [zines aus] TiNA zine market this year Vanessa Berry 8/21/12 6:38 AM
Last year it was $10 for a full table, $5 for half and by joining Octapod for $15/$10 concession you could be covered by their public liability insurance.

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Re: [zines aus] TiNA zine market this year KJE 8/21/12 7:11 AM
I'll have to add my name to the list of oldies (who hasn't been to TINA for a few years) who is supremely disappointed by the $45 price tag and need for insurance. Organising a festival is hard work and I appreciate the difficult position that they are in, and that this would have not been a decision taken lightly - but in my view this is not a compromise solution that is acceptable nor consistent with the ethos of the zine community. If a fair dinkum zine fair is not financially viable then lets call a spade a spade and call it an independent/small publishers fair. It makes no sense to charge $45 for a stall, require the stall holder to have insurance, and then call it a *zine* fair.

If the organisers need assistance, help, funds, ideas for how to make a genuine zine fair at TINA possible, it would have been better to be upfront about this before hand. It would be great if a working group could be established (and put in the schedule) at NYWF to figure out a genuine zine fair can continue into the future.
Re: [zines aus] TiNA zine market this year Sarah Howell 8/21/12 9:31 PM
I wrote to the Tina Coordinator, Sarah Thrift, with some questions, here are some answers.

Octapod are still offering public liability for anyone who becomes an Octapod member $10/$15.

Brad from Fixx Events is getting paid the same fee as past TINA Zine Fair and Artist Market coordinators ( which was a few hundred dollars when I was NYWF Co-Director, can't recall exact amount). So money isn't being spent differently in this regard.

Sarah reminded me that Luke from Sticky has been organising a fundraiser called Feed the Animals to help support zine makers to attend the fair. Luke had sent an email regarding this a while ago but I had forgotten about it. So get in contact with Sticky if you would like some support.

Hope that clarifies some things.

Sarah Howell













On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 12:11 AM, KJE <kjeli...@gmail.com> wrote:
I'll have to add my name to the list of oldies (who hasn't been to TINA for a few years) who is supremely disappointed by the $45 price tag and need for insurance. Organising a festival is hard work and I appreciate the difficult position that they are in, and that this would have not been a decision taken lightly - but in my view this is not a compromise solution that is acceptable nor consistent with the ethos of the zine community. If a fair dinkum zine fair is not financially viable then lets call a spade a spade and call it an independent/small publishers fair. It makes no sense to charge $45 for a stall, require the stall holder to have insurance, and then call it a *zine* fair.

If the organisers need assistance, help, funds, ideas for how to make a genuine zine fair at TINA possible, it would have been better to be upfront about this before hand. It would be great if a working group could be established (and put in the schedule) at NYWF to figure out a genuine zine fair can continue into the future.

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Re: TiNA zine market this year Tim T 8/21/12 9:46 PM
Okay, another questions for the oldies - I know, vaguely, that the zine fair was one of the original TiNA events. Was it originally a guerilla event or did it have some sort of official sanction?
 
I'm interested in the history here - how something could go from being an extremely cheap (or was it free?) event to something considerably more expensive than other zine fairs.

On Tuesday, 21 August 2012 11:32:41 UTC+10, Vanessa Berry wrote:
Re: [zines aus] Re: TiNA zine market this year keren woodward 8/21/12 10:19 PM
I believe the zine fair was always programmed by National Young
Writers' Festival (which pre-existed TINA by a couple of years), but
someone who was there would be better placed to respond to that. As I
see it, the early days were somewhere between official/guerilla. And
yes, the zine fair was free.

I don't think anyone's saying Fixxxx are making profits, I think
what's being said, and perhaps said best by Kelly, is...

"lets call a spade a spade and call it an independent/small publishers
fair. It makes no sense to charge $45 for a stall, require the stall
holder to have insurance, and then call it a *zine* fair."

the fundraising, like the insurance plans, add more complication, as
well as a sense of officialdom that i think would only deter new
participants such as first-timer, uncertain, bedroom floor cutting
types, because they may not have (one might hope) the kind of
professional confidence to sign up, take out insurance, apply for
subsidies, etc.

if there's not the funds to run it, maybe don't? and maybe encourage
'the guerillas' to do as they wish, without insurance or logo.

p.x
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Re: TiNA zine market this year Tim T 8/21/12 10:41 PM
Thanks Keren - I reckon it's still a zine fair in spite of the increased fees and insurance, etc. It's just not necessarily a good or desirable zine fair anymore though.

On Tuesday, 21 August 2012 11:32:41 UTC+10, Vanessa Berry wrote:
TiNA zine market this year Simon Gray 8/22/12 3:55 AM
TINA were going to charge this same fee last year, except NYWF asked me
to co-ordinate the fair. This was in conjunction with TINA's rep Justine
who I found out about later along with a briefing that explained the
stalls would cost the stupidly high fee.
When Justine called to say hi, I immediately gave her an angry
pig-headed vent about the stall price & she hung up on me. My next
contact with TINA/Justine was receiving the news that TINA or NYWF
(can't remember which) would be subsidising the stall fee for the
zinesters, hence last year's prices. On the day of the fair Justine & I
got on OK & worked hard to set things up & pack things down.
After dealing with last year's TINA organisers, myself & Justine
debriefed after that fair & agreed we probably weren't going to be
involved this year. Our liasons with TINA hadn't been good, & I never
got any renumeration for whatever work I had done within my mismanaged
role. (Justine's role meant I merely forwarded zinester interest to her.)
Presumably, whoever's left to pick up pieces for TINA 2012 have
outsourced fair organisers again from even further afield than anything
resembling the zine community, apparently this is the Fixx crew. & They
operate on a different economy to & in ignorance of zine fair requirements.

 From this experience, & having attended TINA many years, for the
entirety of the festival not just the fair Sunday, I think TINA has
become a weaker festival, it's core leadership has moved on to other
projects & it's organisation has fragmented. It could get better it
could get even worse. But I think the MCA fair has usurped TINA in size
& as a zine community specific event for that part of the country, it's
organised by consistent staff who have listened to zinester feedback
inside a rain-proof venue that has it's own liability insurance, not a
public car park.

Luke from Sticky worked as hard as me setting up & packing down the
tables last year at TINA, he also e-mailed me about this prior to this
going nutso in this e-mail list. He is really angry but has also
embraced an idea I'd had when faced with $45 zine stalls. He's
organising funding to buy all the stalls & then let zinesters have them
for free. I will support him financially but don't expect myself or
Format to be at TINA, we kind of have our own hot-damn Format festival
going on at the same time.

& Yes come to the Format Zine fair instead on October 7, our tables are
free for zinesters.

Cheerio lovelies, shame it's taken a shitty situation to come out the
woodwork & chat.


Simon Gray



http://www.redbubble.com/people/yummylychees
Re: [zines aus] TiNA zine market this year Elle 8/22/12 5:43 AM
Hey Simon, that's very interesting. I also think it's crap that Sticky
should have to "fundraise" money from artists to buy $45 tables to
give to artists. What's the point of that? Why is TINA so precious
that it needs to have Sticky try and buy all tables upfront to
recirculate for free? It all seems so stupid. Sorry, TINA, you've lost
me, and anyone who is trying to enable this crap! arg! In the end it's
always the artist who has to pay upfront / donate their work for
fundraisers / etc. Nobody sticks up for the zinester. it's alll
shiiiiiiittttt. elle.
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Re: [zines aus] TiNA zine market this year Candace 8/22/12 6:01 AM
While this is disappointing, it's sadly not the most surprising thing. The EWF hasn't had a zine fair for a while, but a 'page parlour' that is so broad in definition that it could be entirely without zines and nobody would blink. It seems TINA has just turned into something else and it's not entirely due to the financial issues, but part and parcel with the attitude of whoever's left running it. I suppose zines aren't important to them, or something they even think about or know much about. Otherwise they wouldn't be doing this. I haven't been since the  car boot garage sale zine fair, which had to me a disproportionate amount of craft already. I don't intend to go this year either. Or the next. or the next. Really, it's not worth the trip to me. If I lived in NSW I might, but even then. Meh.
I think that MCA, Sticky's zine fairs and Format's are more relavent these days. If I am going to scrounge my meagre funds to go interstate, it'll be to Sydney or Adelaide, not Newcastle.

xx Candace
Re: [zines aus] TiNA zine market this year Sarah Howell 8/22/12 5:27 PM
With the exception of a few diehards like Marcus Westbury, Sean Healy and Marni Jackson TINA has always been run by a new crop of people each year, some years those people have an understanding of zines and the zine community, sometimes they don't.

TINA's beauty and downfall is that it is created by whoever puts their hand up to do it. It still remains the most DIY festival because anyone can step up and change it. If someone is passionate about the art of painting gnomes and want to make a festival about their passion, TINA will accommodate.

I think the biggest hurdle is that there isn't anyone in Newcastle driving zine stuff right now. "The good old days" of TINA Zine Fair are mostly the result of dedicated locals advocating for zines and making it work.

xSH
Re: [zines aus] TiNA zine market this year Bastian Fox Phelan 8/22/12 3:44 PM
I wasn't planning on going this year and the $45 fee has really sealed the deal. last year was one of the most miserable zine fair days I've ever attended. I had to buy new pants at rivers because I got drenched in rain and didn't want to sit in a freezing carpark all day in wet clothes.

While I agree that MCA has surpassed TINA in terms of 'prestigious zine fairs of nsw' I also don't believe mca is hitting the mark. The snapdragon zine fair last year was more like it.

I think it's outrageous that TINA are charging $45 but to me this signals that it's not my zine fair any more. Someone else might think, $45 - that's a bargain. If TINA ends up turning away a whole bunch of bedroom-floor-&-glue-stick types, that just means those types need to get together and organise their own fair.

We don't need their funding and we don't need their control!

I also think it's better to have one or two interstate-attracting zine fairs per year, rather than 3+ because you're more likely to get a good concentration of zinesters from around the country. I don't think we would be losing much if TINA canned it completely, as long as there was something just as good or better happening elsewhere in Australia.

Bastian
Re: [zines aus] TiNA zine market this year aspire 8/22/12 3:21 PM
It all sounds like shit!
I'de rather start an annual Zinefest in my big backyard and garage, play records ,have a band, eat good foods, drink teas and bring your own table/chair and it's free!!
Love you all
Aspire X
Re: TiNA zine market this year KJE 8/23/12 4:27 AM
Bravo to Luke for taking the initiative!

What the organisers need to understand is that many young writers cut their teeth writing zines. Us oldies could name many zinesters from back in the day who are now scholars, published authors and active freelance writers and bloggers. Zines matter.. so a fair that respects the ethos of the zine community matters as well. The values at the heart of the community are no different (in my view) to that of punk rock - it's all about participation, and therefore in order to honour the value of participation, all events associated with the community must be as accessible as possible.

ok, no more ranting about this from me. as others have suggested, if we are dissatisfied with TINA then lets get behind the other zine fairs such as Format who are for real.

- Kelly
Re: [zines aus] Re: TiNA zine market this year aspire 8/23/12 5:29 AM
Will I be able to sell my felt owl creations at Format? 
Thanks
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Re: [zines aus] Re: TiNA zine market this year Sarah Howell 8/27/12 3:52 AM
Hey Raphael,

Just to update you, there has been another email conversation that has gone on from this one where Luke Sinclair announced the following:

"Hi everyone,
 
I just got off the phone with the National Young Writers Festival.  After polite discussions they have come up with the money to fund 52 half tressle table zine stalls at the This Is Not Art Zine Fair this year.  The stalls will be offered for free.  So a big thank you to all those people who spoke up and said that $45 zine stalls were not good enough.  And a massive thank you goes out to all those people who offered to put up money to fund the massive free zine stall - your money is no longer required - but the massive free zine stall lives on in all our minds.
 
TINA will put out an announcement hopefully this week."

So your suggestion is now not so urgent, but still worth investigating for next year. I would probably start with talking to Renew Newcastle who will have good advice about possible venues, dealing (or not) with council, etc, and just have a good look around the city this TINA and picture where you would like to see the next fair happen.

Sarah Howell.



On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 2:55 PM, Raphael Kabo <ralph...@gmail.com> wrote:
I wrote an Annoyed Blog Post about it: http://internetosaur.us/rainsoup/index.php?post=013
I've only been to the fair two times now, so of course I'm very much a newbie when it comes to the fair and its history, but I'm thinking that if there really are people who can't afford (or, understandably, don't want to afford) the fair in its 2012 incarnation, how difficult would it be to organise a little fair (~10 tables?) somewhere in Newcastle during the festival, just so that we're not forced to pay $60 to show other people our work? (This isn't a rhetorical question. I am genuinely interested in finding out how difficult it would be to set something like this up).

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