Recently there was some controversy related to Shiva-linga. Many
Hindus also do not understand the true meaning of various concepts
related with the religion. The main reason is that many of these
concepts have been misinterpreted by scholars from other religions
knowningly or unknowlingly. With passing of time Hindus also start
believing in these misinterpretations. For our next generation of
Hindus, we are trying to prepare small booklets to provide correct
and true concepts of Hindu religion.
   The following has been taken from "Glimpses of Hinduism, Vol. 1:
Maha-Shiva-Ratri, written by Pt. Oma Persaud, and published by
TIA Publications, 96 Queensdale Cres., Guelph, Ontario, Canada, N1H
6W3. If you need a copy, you can get it from the publisher. I
think the cost is US$4.
   "Siva without form is symbolised by the "Shiva-linga". According
to Practical Sanskrit-English Dictionary, page 816 by V.S. Apte, a
linga is a mark, sign, token, emblem, badge or symbol. The idea
of the linga being a phallic symbol was probably started by the
German philosopher Gustav Oppert at a Parliament of Religions in
France, during the late 19th century. Swami Vivekanand described this
interpretation as "..ridiculous,..quite new and strange and
seemed groundless.." (Complete Works of Smami Vivekanand, Vol. 4,
page 424). The Atharva Veda Samhita has a hymn in praise of the Yupa
Stambha (i.e. first sacrificial post) where symbolically, the
Param Brahma (God) sacrificed a part its energy to produce the
Universe. Over the centuries, this symbol of the first sacrificial
post underwent changes. Accordingly, we have now, various lingas. The
Shiva Puraana (11:3) indicates that a linga can be of earth, water or
fire. Its base can be circular, square or triangular. A linga may
be stationary or mobile. Mobile lingas should be subtle. The seat
and the emblem should be unitary and of the same material. Thus a
linga for the Hindus is a symbol of the presence of the formless
God. Any other interpretation is erroneous."
   A religion is a follower's faith. One religion should not be
criticised by the followers of other religions as this criticism
will be biased, full of ignorance, and selfish. Some examples are
"Hindus believe in many Gods", "Hindu is a way of life not religion",
etc. However, Hindu (origional name "Sanatam Dharama") religion always
encourages criticisms from its followers.

Dr. G.S. Mittal

------------------------------_-----------------------------------------------
--

-------------------------------------------------------------
                              Motorola
                   PowerPC Design for Testability
                       Somerset Design Center

   raz...@ibmoto.com (Ashutosh Razdan) wrote:
>Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 15:56:27 EDT
>From: MIT...@net2.eos.uoguelph.ca
>Subject: Shiva-linga controversy
>
>   Recently there was some controversy related to Shiva-linga. Many
>Hindus also do not understand the true meaning of various concepts
>related with the religion. The main reason is that many of these
>concepts have been misinterpreted by scholars from other religions
>knowningly or unknowlingly. With passing of time Hindus also start
>believing in these misinterpretations. For our next generation of
>Hindus, we are trying to prepare small booklets to provide correct
>and true concepts of Hindu religion.
>   The following has been taken from "Glimpses of Hinduism, Vol. 1:
>Maha-Shiva-Ratri, written by Pt. Oma Persaud, and published by
>TIA Publications, 96 Queensdale Cres., Guelph, Ontario, Canada, N1H
>6W3. If you need a copy, you can get it from the publisher. I
>think the cost is US$4.
>   "Siva without form is symbolised by the "Shiva-linga". According
>to Practical Sanskrit-English Dictionary, page 816 by V.S. Apte, a
>linga is a mark, sign, token, emblem, badge or symbol. The idea
>of the linga being a phallic symbol was probably started by the

To legitimize such religious practices during which the priesthood
probably had great "fun" mythologies (which can be found in Brahmin shastras)
were propagated.  The story goes something like this.  Shiva
once took incarnation as a Brahmin sadhu near a village.  This sadhu
ultimately began to seduce the married women of the village.
When the village men discovered this betrayal, they grabbed the
sadhu and castrated him.  At this point, the sadhu manifested
his Shiva form and cursed the people with impotence (lack of fertility).
From now on, if any of them wanted to have children, they must
perform the Shiv-lingam ceremony described above.  This ritual
provided the priests with a cheap peep-show at the expense of their
followers.

All this high-flying stuff about the lingum being a "formless"
representation is more the creation of western-educated revisionist Brahmin
intellectuals from the 19th century (who felt a need to update and
monothesiestize their religion) than representative of the real motives of the
original Brahmins who installed these practices for their own purposes
centuries earlier.  The original myths and tales (described above briefly)
surrounding these practices as found in the Brahmin shastras themselves are
irrefutable proof of this.

 
>German philosopher Gustav Oppert at a Parliament of Religions in
>France, during the late 19th century. Swami Vivekanand described this
>interpretation as "..ridiculous,..quite new and strange and
>seemed groundless.." (Complete Works of Smami Vivekanand, Vol. 4,
>page 424). The Atharva Veda Samhita has a hymn in praise of the Yupa
>Stambha (i.e. first sacrificial post) where symbolically, the
>Param Brahma (God) sacrificed a part its energy to produce the
>Universe. Over the centuries, this symbol of the first sacrificial
>post underwent changes. Accordingly, we have now, various lingas. The
>Shiva Puraana (11:3) indicates that a linga can be of earth, water or
>fire. Its base can be circular, square or triangular. A linga may
>be stationary or mobile. Mobile lingas should be subtle. The seat
>and the emblem should be unitary and of the same material. Thus a

There is no connection with any of the above statements which talk
about the material restictions on the building of the linga with the
conclusion you draw below regarding its "symbol of the presence of the
formless God".  There is no inductive or deductive connection between these
statements (from the Puranas) and the conclusion this Dr. Mittal is making.

 
>linga for the Hindus is a symbol of the presence of the formless
>God. Any other interpretation is erroneous."
>   A religion is a follower's faith. One religion should not be
>criticised by the followers of other religions as this criticism
>will be biased, full of ignorance, and selfish. Some examples are
>"Hindus believe in many Gods", "Hindu is a way of life not religion",
>etc. However, Hindu (origional name "Sanatam Dharama") religion always
>encourages criticisms from its followers.
>
>Dr. G.S. Mittal
>
>------------------------------_----------------------------------------------
-

In article <50qa53$p...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu> g...@cornell.edu (Gurupdesh Singh) writes:

.. stuff deleted ..

   All this high-flying stuff about the lingum being a "formless"
   representation is more the creation of western-educated revisionist Brahmin
   intellectuals from the 19th century (who felt a need to update and
   monothesiestize their religion) than representative of the real motives of
   the original Brahmins who installed these practices for their own purposes
   centuries earlier.  The original myths and tales (described above briefly)
   surrounding these practices as found in the Brahmin shastras themselves are
   irrefutable proof of this.

Though I don't wish to dispute Gurupdesh Singh's claim that some
Brahmins required women to actually go through some rite using the
lingam in some region of Bharat, I wish to clarify the origin of the
lingam and its representation.

First of all the origin of the lingam was during Shiva's manifestation
to Vishnu and Brahma as a fiery pillar which was reduced to the
Lingam.  Yes, it was indeed a phallic representation, the Brahma
Purana has a story regarding Shaivite ascetics entering a hermitage
and causing havoc due to their representation.  But the origin of the
representation does not seem to be attributed to Brahmins but to
ascetic yogis.  Initially Brahmins seemed quite averse to the idea of
such a representation.

So though I wouldn't be surprised that some Brahmin decided to make
"creative use" of the lingam in some region of Bharat, Brahmins have
had some pretty strange fertility and consummation rituals in the
past, some still require checks of virginity and don't let their women
into kitchens during their menstruation cycles etc., I claim that it
was neither the original intent nor practice to do so.

nnyxsi@swap31-220 (Kunal Singh) wrote:
 
>So though I wouldn't be surprised that some Brahmin decided to make
>"creative use" of the lingam in some region of Bharat,

Heh heh heh. Dildos were invented in Bharat :-)

Ahmad.

p.s. No offence meant to Babuji (or to anyone else, as for that
matter).

>So though I wouldn't be surprised that some Brahmin decided to make

>"creative use" of the lingam in some region of Bharat, Brahmins have
>had some pretty strange fertility and consummation rituals in the
>past, some still require checks of virginity and don't let their women
>into kitchens during their menstruation cycles etc., I claim that it
>was neither the original intent nor practice to do so.

You have provided another mythology behind the Shiv-lingum.
The story I heard and the one prevalent in the north (Punjab)
is the one I mentioned above.  Maybe different myths/tales
were used by Brahmins in different regions to install
these practices.  It would be interesting to hear other
tales of the Lingum.

>
> nnyxsi@swap31-220 (Kunal Singh) wrote:
>
> >So though I wouldn't be surprised that some Brahmin decided to make
> >"creative use" of the lingam in some region of Bharat,
>

> Heh heh heh. Dildos were invented in Bharat :-)
>
> Ahmad.
>
> p.s. No offence meant to Babuji (or to anyone else, as for that
> matter).

Well, thats all very well. It would have been better if you hadn't made
that statememt in the first place regarding the dildo. If people start
making similar comparisons between pricks and minarets, Iam sure you will
take offence though.

Raja

Raja V <ra...@netvigator.com> wrote:
 
>Well, thats all very well. It would have been better if you hadn't made
>that statememt in the first place regarding the dildo. If people start
>making similar comparisons between pricks and minarets, Iam sure you will
>take offence though.

Not at all, Rajaji. I am seldom agravated by words. You can make all
the comparisons between pricks and minarets you like, and then go on
to compare the dome with something as well. I wouldn't be bothered.

Ahmad.

p.s. And while you are at it, why not go and demolish another couple of
mosques? We in Pakistan take things calmly, and are saving all the mosques
to be later on converted into gymnasiums :-) You will see that sometime in
the next century, we are going to hold olympics in Islamabad, when the
Faisal mosque will be converted into a world class gymnasium.

In article <50n3gj$c...@afsar.ibmoto.com>, raz...@ibmoto.com (Ashutosh Razdan) writes:
|>Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 15:56:27 EDT
|>From: MIT...@net2.eos.uoguelph.ca
|>Subject: Shiva-linga controversy
|>

[snip]

|>Param Brahma (God) sacrificed a part its energy to produce the
|>Universe. Over the centuries, this symbol of the first sacrificial
|>post underwent changes. Accordingly, we have now, various lingas. The
|>Shiva Puraana (11:3) indicates that a linga can be of earth, water or
|>fire. Its base can be circular, square or triangular. A linga may
|>be stationary or mobile. Mobile lingas should be subtle. The seat
|>and the emblem should be unitary and of the same material.

In this high tech age, can linga be represented by a "vibrator"
which is a mobile or energetic instrument?

Cheers.

Sure old chap. If you let a Playboy pictorial represent the domes of
all mosques, your suggestion will indeed be welcome.

As I have said before a million times, to each his own. Please do not
insult religions in the name of humour. If you don't like something, KEEP
OFF. That way, we can all avoid idiotic fights.

Ciao.

Raja

>
> Cheers.

Gurupdesh Singh wrote:
> sadhu and castrated him.  At this point, the sadhu manifested
> his Shiva form and cursed the people with impotence (lack of fertility).
> From now on, if any of them wanted to have children, they must
> perform the Shiv-lingam ceremony described above.  This ritual
> provided the priests with a cheap peep-show at the expense of their
> followers.
>
>

        Just out of curiosity !

        Are you an incarnation of that sadhu. And do sikhs believe in
incarnation . If no, then please, write a juicy story about hindus
belief in incarnations and how it is a very offensive practise.( The
story line can be something like this: Create a background, create
a sadhu character who is after some female, which is ofcourse a sister
and a mother and a wife, put some juices, use old words, like after
killing her husband the sadhu manifested that he is her husband
incarnated
blah blah !).

          If anytime in future you run out of ideas, in convincing your
shaky (or sikhy) followers that their religious practices are the best,
then come to me I will give you more ( and better ideas ) which will be
very offensive and worthy for your GREAT CAUSE.

Ciao.

Raja

>
> Cheers.
----

From:  vija...@centuryinter.net
Date:  9/11/96
Subject:  Symbolism of Shiva Linga
Address:  To: scim <soc.culture.indian.marathi>
 

-Subject:   The  Symbolism of  Shiva Linga

   Recently I made a presentation to a local Indian group on this
subject. Since there is so much misunderstanding and confusion, I
thought I'll share this with you.                    
                                       __ Vijay K. Sabnis

       The Shiva linga has been part of our Hindu consciousness
for almost five thousand years. Before we try to understand its
significance, I want to make sure every body knows what it is not.
Because it has the appearance of male genital organ, it was
interpreted to be the generative organ of Shiva and therefore a
symbol of fertility, libido (sexual desire) or procreation. It is
not so. It is not phallic worship of ancient Indians. Linga does
not mean genital organ as some people have believed. To think that
our holy spiritual  forefathers would think in such crassy sexual
terms to me is unconscionable. But subtleties and complexities of
Sanskrit language has created such simplistic interpretations.    
 
          Linga  is the Sanskrit  word for symbol or sign. This
shape and its symbolism has exerted a powerful influence on the
hearts and minds of spiritual seekers. The most fundamental
premise of Hindu religion is that the Divine Spirit is One and it
pervades and permeates the entire Universe, living and non living
(Unity of Spirit). The Divine Spirit is eternal and formless,
beyond time and space..it is infinite. So how does our mind
conditioned by time and space grasp the Timeless and Infinite? How
does the mind of us ordinary people grasp the Divine? The average
mind can comprehend the Divine in a symbolic form. Linga is that
form. Linga is that bridge between matter and energy, conscious
and unconscious, manifest and sublime. Linga is the universal symbol
for that bridge to that Transcendental Truth beyond ordinary human
experience. Scriptures preach that the Consciousness existent in all
life was not born of atoms and molecules, cells and tissues; quite
contrary they all are born of the Divine Consciousness that pervades
and permeates the universe.(Charles Darwin said the opposite... " Life
was born of coming together of atoms and molecules thru their incessant
process of natural selection and random mutation." ' Origin of Species') This
symbolism of linga is commonly accepted; still different branches of the
religion have interpreted it from their
different standpoints. Mythology (Puraana), scriptures(Upanishads),
metaphysics(Yoga) and spiritual psychology(Tantra) have all interpreted
this unique symbol and added different facets to its meaning.
              Mythology says that when Shiva dances, the earth shakes,
oceans are astir, heavens tremble and there is great destruction of
life, thus paving for the beginning of new life from Shivalinga. The
original man Manu (By the way English word man came From Manu) survived
such a destruction and  the human race descended from him.( this is
comparable with the Judeo-Christian belief of Apocalypse - a divinely
intended violent upheavel following which God gives a symbolistic
vision of an impending new peaceful order). Astronomists believe our
universe is supposed to have started after a Cosmic Big Bang with
tremendous destruction and dissolution of matter and then its realignment  into
formation of our solar
system and our planet. We recently saw on TV the image sent by Hubble
Telescope of a new star being formed  from humongous globs of gas in
the Eagle Nebula, 7000 light years away in space.        
           
     The mythologic meaning of Shiva is of course is not the scriptural
view. Before we understand the meaning we must understand the symbol.
The most commonly worshipped form of linga is the 'Pillar' form. It
reminds us of the male phallus-the giver of the seed of life, the male
Creative Principle. It is usually fixed on a tear drop shaped structure
and partially submerged in it called the 'Yoni'- the Female Principle.
Together they represent the male and female aspects of life  from the
individual to the cosmic leveli.e.The male Shiva-the Pure Consciousness
-and the female Shakti- the Creative Energy combine to plant the seed
of this material world-living and non living.Thus the inner meaning of the
Shiva Linga is that there is an unmanifest male principle which is the static
Shiva Consciousness and an unmanifest female principle
- the dynamic energy- the Creative Force. In their harmonious spiritual
intercourse,the universe evolved in its manifest (material) form. In
symbolic terms, linga and yoni are thus the cosmic equivalent of
procreation, the primordial principle of love, the Kaama Tattwa. The
Kaama Tattwa that brought about the Creation thru union of Shiva and
Shakti, also impels male and female, man and woman toward a common goal
of creation of life. Science has no answer for the source of that  
infinite unknown force which relentlessly replicates a single
fertilised cell into a newborn  infant of 920 billion cells in the
female womb.        
  The Tantric texts equate linga with 'Purusha' or pure consciousness
and yoni with 'Prakriti'- the Creative Energy of Consciousness. Yogic
and Tantric Texts (Yoga Sutra, Sankhya Karika) carefully explain that
Consciousness and Creative energy are inherent in one another. Shiva is pure
static Consciousness and Shakti is the Creative Energy that
radiates from it. Shiva and Shakti are one and the same thing; Shakti
emanates from Shiva Consciousness just as heat from fire. Linga and
Yoni, Shiva and Shakti are the most fundamental units of matter
spiritually.The age old Chinese philosophy also theorised the existence
of a negative female and a positive male  cosmic forces- yin and yang-
complementary to each other. Our forefathers were not that far off
scientifically since an atom - the most fundamental unit of matter- is
composed ofa male positively charged static nucleus (Shiva Consciusness
?) and a dynamic female negatively charged cloud of energy of electrons
(Shakti?) spinning around it. Biologic smallest unit - the cell -works
very similarly. Its central nucleus contains the genetic information
evolved over millenia (Consciousness) and around it is the oxidative
Energy of metabolism- the two function harmoniously as long as the cell
is alive. Our solar system functions similarly. Only one fourth of
the linga is submerged in the yoni and the rest rises above it implying
that only a fraction of the Divine light has become flesh or matter;
the rest still pervades and permeates the world. Scientists believe
that only 20 % of the energy released by the Big Bang is accounted for.      
      There is another form and shape of Linga-the oval ellipsoidal
symbol -of cosmic egg referred to in scriptures as Bindu.  In this oval
form there is no male female duality; the male female aspects are
united as in a fertilised egg. The exposition of this oval form is
undertaken mostly by the yogis and mystics who believe that every thing
in the universe and galaxies was born from this primordial egg formed
by the union of Shiva and Shakti. Yogis believe that in its highest
sense, the purpose of yoga sadhana is to permit us to gain direct
experience of this living Shivalinga at our material core, the very
essence of our being. When yogis attain that state of Shiva
Consciousness, their experience is one of limitless light and endless
bliss. Inherent in this state is the experience of eternal pulsation of pure
light
of Consciousness and  the experience of Shakti- inseparable from
this this light. The yogic literature depicts the human being as an
oval of pure light, a vibratory field of Consciousness within which
the physical body floats. For them Linga is a symbolic egg formed by
union of Shiva and Shakti; from this egg every thing we sense was born. Thus
their concept of Creation of  is that
       1. Shiva + Shakti = Shaktyanda  ( the grandest egg)
       2. Shaktyanda --> Brahmandas (universes)
       3. Brahmanda  --> Galaxies, Stars and Planets and Jagatanda
       4. Jagatanda (our world)  -->  Sthanu  ( non -sentient )    
                                 -->  Pindanda (sentient-living beings)

       Seekers of the Kundalini Yoga have further established Linga at
various levels of the body itself. Followers of the Kundalini Yoga
meditate on this internal linga. The word Kundalini means a coiled
serpent. The loweset linga in the body is situated at the tail bone
with the coiled Kundalini asleep on it. As the state of Consciousness
rises (becomes purer) Kundalini ascends to the higher lingas. The
goal of such a Yogi is to attain the higest level of Consciousness
and be one  with the highest linga situated at the top of his
head.(mastaka)
      Lingas are commonly made of rock or are found in the river
bed  made by nature of a rock called shaaligram, smoothed and
shaped by eons of nature's meditative work. Traditionally it is
propitiated  by ingredients taken from nature, dirt, ash, water
and flowers. Offerings of both nutritious food or poisonous herbs
are equally acceptable. Nature made Lingas are called self born or
swayambhoo; the Vishvanatha temple of Benares, Nataraja temple of
South India or Amarnath temple in Kashmir are swayambhoo Linga
temples.                  
        Thousands of years ago Lord Shiva  enlightened our spiritual
ancestors at Mount Kailash about the true origin of this manifest world
and its connection to the Unmanifest Divine Spirit. It is beleived Lord
Shiva  made a Divine Revelation in the form of Linga. That night is
celebrated by Hindus as the holy Mahashivaratri. It is a day of absolute
abstinence (fasting, silence, prayers), meditation, a holy bath at
midnight and spiritual rejuvenation.
 
        " Shivo bhutwaa shivam yajetuhh"
       
 
 " Knowledge is heightened Consciousness."
  Vijay K. Sabnis  vija...@centuryinter.net

 " Knowledge is heightened Consciousness."
  Vijay K. Sabnis  vija...@centuryinter.net

Ahmad Rana wrote:
>
> Raja V <ra...@netvigator.com> wrote:
>
> >Well, thats all very well. It would have been better if you hadn't made
> >that statememt in the first place regarding the dildo. If people start
> >making similar comparisons between pricks and minarets, Iam sure you will
> >take offence though.
>
> Not at all, Rajaji. I am seldom agravated by words. You can make all
> the comparisons between pricks and minarets you like, and then go on
> to compare the dome with something as well. I wouldn't be bothered.

In that case, I really should forward you some of the hate mail I
received after making the above statement.

>
> Ahmad.
>
> p.s. And while you are at it, why not go and demolish another couple of
> mosques? We in Pakistan take things calmly, and are saving all the mosques

Excuse me, you have mistaken for someone else (by name Babu Ram maybe).
Where have I EVER supported the bigots from the BJP and VHP ? Please do
not make unsubstantiated allegations.

> to be later on converted into gymnasiums :-) You will see that sometime in
> the next century, we are going to hold olympics in Islamabad, when the
> Faisal mosque will be converted into a world class gymnasium.

Best of luck in your endeavours.

Raja

I dont need to create anything.  It will take a lifetime to
just report on the fantasies and tales drummed up by "our
wise Brahmin sages".  By the way, are you saying that the myth
I related is false - I hope not, because if you did, it would
completely shatter what credibility you have left!

Also, why act like a self-appointed guardian of Brahmanism,
when knowing not much about it.

You still did not answer the question posed by Mr. Khalid which
was was well within the context of the linga's perscription
as quoted by Dr.Mittal from the Puranas.  It seems
that Mr. Khalid's proposal for a "high tech linga" fits the
requirements - "stationary or mobile", "subtle", "seat and
emblem made of the same material and be unitary", "energetic", etc.

If you are not qualified to answer this question, maybe you should
let others who have more intimate knowledge of the holy Shastras
and the Linga (such as Mr. Tiwari, or Dr. Maharaj) answer these  
religious questions.

>>> |>Param Brahma (God) sacrificed a part its energy to produce the
>>> |>Universe. Over the centuries, this symbol of the first
sacrificial
>>> |>post underwent changes. Accordingly, we have now, various lingas.

>The
>>> |>Shiva Puraana (11:3) indicates that a linga can be of earth,
water
>or
>>> |>fire. Its base can be circular, square or triangular. A linga may
>>> |>be stationary or mobile. Mobile lingas should be subtle. The seat
>>> |>and the emblem should be unitary and of the same material.

>>> In this high tech age, can linga be represented by a "vibrator"
>>> which is a mobile or energetic instrument?
>>
>>Sure old chap. If you let a Playboy pictorial represent the domes of
>>all mosques, your suggestion will indeed be welcome.
>>

>You still did not answer the question posed by Mr. Khalid which

>was was well within the context of the linga's perscription
>as quoted by Dr.Mittal from the Puranas.  It seems
>that Mr. Khalid's proposal for a "high tech linga" fits the
>requirements - "stationary or mobile", "subtle", "seat and
>emblem made of the same material and be unitary", "energetic", etc.
>

Good points and interesting discussion indeed!!  

How about the following very simple theory about how linga got
invented!

I have always wondered why hindus worship and revere symbols such
as Linga.  There must be some logical reason behind it.  Every myth
and tradition has a real story behind it wheather we know it or not.
If we do not know exact begining of a belief, then scholars try to
arrive at theories which may or may not be acceptable to every one.

Without even a slightest claim of being a scholar, I have a theory.
People do not have to agree.  Here it goes.  Hindus used to be very
strict vegetarians (only recently have they started eating meat
products). Since meat used to be a source of essential nutirients and
protiens long time ago, (note that now research has found alternative
sources  of many nutrients and you can get these even if you are a
vegetarian).  For a grown up vegetarian (sadhu brahmin) deprived of
nutrients,
having erection and maintaing was not only a feat, it was a phenomenon.
Those guys did not experience erection which most of you guys take it for
granted.  Since it was so rare (like a earthquake, thunderstorm,
and lightening), erect male organ was almost thought to be a divine
appearance.  It was therefore an object of worship. IMHO, brahmin
ingenuity led it to its logical next step, an organ made of real
stone which will never go limp! Hence Shiva Linga and worth worshiping.

There are a lot of enlightened individuals on the net. Let us hear
their opinion.  

Jai linga.

All views are my personal views, just modified according to
time. I was fed-up reading those old-time stories about some
sadhu or some nirankari, coming from Guru-pdesh.

Old order changeth, giving way to new -- King Arthur.

Gurupdesh SIngh wrote:
>
>
> Also, why act like a self-appointed guardian of Brahmanism,
> when knowing not much about it.

        You are right, I am a hindu and many of the stories
you are writing, I have never heard. Am I ignorant or people
who told me about religion were hiding things.
        To understand hinduism, which is your motive, you
should read upnishads, vedas and gita. These books contain the
philosphy of Hinduism.
        If you are trying to tell Hinduism is not a perfect
religion then you have to understand that Hinduism is the
oldest existing religion and by time and by mischievious
elements, some wrong practices starts mingling with the main
theme. Say for example caste system. Hinduism never fixed the
caste of anyone. It was fixed according to deeds but because
of some selfish elements it is what it is now.
        A person can become a hindu by birth or by practise,
which is quite different from other religions in which just
after some ceremony you have a different religion ( seems funny).
This fact itself shows the depth of other religions- how to be
a better citizen or a person, you just have to undergo some
ceremony, otherwise, you can't be a good or religious person.

Zafar K  <zm...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>How about the following very simple theory about how linga got
>invented!

<inane jumble of words deleted>

Note that:

1. It is not just any linga but _Shiva's_ linga. :)
2. The female counterpart is present there too. :)

It is my opinion that woshipping the Shiva-linga is meant to convey the idea
the sex and religion are inseparable since both of them have to do with
morality. Your religion will, for the most art, determine your behaviour in
sexual matters. Or it is possible that sex and religion are opposing forces,
both of which are not evil by themselves but can lead to disasterous
consequences if not reconciled. So, the integration of sex with religion!
Solves the problem to a large extent, no? :)

I remember vaguely a story that might be of some relevance here. Sometime
Kali the Goddess was in a destructive mood and went around destroying
everything she set sight upon. All the gods were terrified and asked Vishnu
for help who went to Shiva to request help in calming Kali down. Shiva then
proceeded to seduce Kali, thus taking her mind off her anger and saved the
world!

Brij
----

Brij wrote:
> I remember vaguely a story that might be of some relevance here. Sometime
> Kali the Goddess was in a destructive mood and went around destroying
> everything she set sight upon. All the gods were terrified and asked Vishnu
> for help who went to Shiva to request help in calming Kali down. Shiva then
> proceeded to seduce Kali, thus taking her mind off her anger and saved the
> world!

Shiva has an exceedingly lousy taste in women. How _could_ he???????????

Shelly
>
>
> Brij
> ----
>

Hey Prateek

Analogy extraordinaire! Specially liked the part about one god many
god parallel. You do need a break from your computers though!

So you are a software person, I am gussing?

Sanjay

Prateek wrote:
>
> In this thread people were discussing all sort of
> silly things about religions. So let me add my half-wits
> to them.
>
>         Actually, most of the religions in this world are
> like Windows, just the user interface is good. Inside it
> is fucked up. The people thinks that it a operating system,
> it is just a GUI. Likewise, most of the religions are
> Windows, good to use.
>         Hinduism and some other religions are in a different
> class. The are like Unix, time tested and modified according
> to taste and orientation of people, that is why, so many
> flavours exist today, both of unix and Hinduism.
>         Like for windows, Bill Gates is the only God, but
> the unix users have many Gods. This dosen't goes on to show
> that unix users are confused and just because of this Windows
> is better. And it is a well known fact that for a windows
> user it is nearly impossible to understand Unix.
>         Some religions are like OS2, revered by some, and
> specialized for some purpose, like Rajneeshites.
>
> All views are my personal views, just modified according to
> time. I was fed-up reading those old-time stories about some
> sadhu or some nirankari, coming from Guru-pdesh.
>
> Old order changeth, giving way to new -- King Arthur.

Plus this -

Bill Gates, the God of the Windows, knows that Unix is superior. He
tells his followers to slowly start copying the Unix's features. Unix
is genuine multi-tasking, fault-tolerant, non-violent, and vegetarian.
Soon, he starts a new following - the one of Windows NT and Windows 95.
The wall between Windows and Unix blurs, and soon there is everlasting
peace on this planet <grin>.

- Pankaj Gupta

: class. The are like Unix, time tested and modified according
: to taste and orientation of people, that is why, so many
: flavours exist today, both of unix and Hinduism.

Fundoo description boss:-) Great analogy!
-Nihal

--
 "Good happens!!"

>
>In this thread people were discussing all sort of
>silly things about religions. So let me add my half-wits

>to them.
>        
>        Actually, most of the religions in this world are
>like Windows, just the user interface is good. Inside it
>is fucked up. The people thinks that it a operating system,
>it is just a GUI. Likewise, most of the religions are
>Windows, good to use.

>        Hinduism and some other religions are in a different
>class. The are like Unix, time tested and modified according
>to taste and orientation of people, that is why, so many
>flavours exist today, both of unix and Hinduism.

>        Like for windows, Bill Gates is the only God, but

>the unix users have many Gods. This dosen't goes on to show
>that unix users are confused and just because of this Windows
>is better. And it is a well known fact that for a windows
>user it is nearly impossible to understand Unix.
>        Some religions are like OS2, revered by some, and
>specialized for some purpose, like Rajneeshites.
>
>
>
>All views are my personal views, just modified according to
>time. I was fed-up reading those old-time stories about some
>sadhu or some nirankari, coming from Guru-pdesh.

This is why I asked people more knowledgeable about the shastras
regarding this matter to come forward because otherwise in the
absense of fact people begin to create "theories" to explain and
the truth may get lost. Also others - denialists - come forward
and start making incredible falsehoods like that "Linga does not mean
penis (lun)", etc.  If Linga doesnt mean lun, then Shiva would have been
a unik (?) or worse and Parvati would have been one unsatisfied dame!  

P.S. Choosing the word "unix" was a bad choice: it seems
     too close to the word "unik" - that sadhu who was
     castrated by the village folk for fooling around
     with their wives.

Regards,
Gurupdesh

Brijji,
   I think you have hit something immeasurable here.  This communion
of Shiva with the tumultuous Kali (reminds me of Indira G.) could explain
how the Linga got detached from Shiva.  In order to save the world,
Lord Shiva made the "supreme sacrifice" and this is worthy of recognition
by people of all religious beliefs.  

   Personally, I like your explanation more that the Sadhu-Shiva one
that I reported earlier.  However, the question is which is the real
story.  Our quest continues.....
Regards,
Gurupdesh

 
>
>
>Brij
>----
>

>Brij wrote:
>> I remember vaguely a story that might be of some relevance here. Sometime
>> Kali the Goddess was in a destructive mood and went around destroying
>> everything she set sight upon. All the gods were terrified and asked Vishnu
>> for help who went to Shiva to request help in calming Kali down. Shiva then

One look at Shiva and you realize he has no tastes in anything!  :)

I often wonder why Hippies chant 'hare rama, hare krishna' while Shiva
would be their ideal god. Shiva's worshippers are not supposed to:

1. Care how they dress.
2. Reject the ways of the material world.

AND to top it all, they can use drugs like Bhang to get high.

Strange thing is that Shiva comes out of all this, still looking adorable
and cute, to me at least. Must be the fault of the artists and sculptors who
potray him as such. How else can one imagine that a god who has the power to
annihilate the world in an instant, would create such an impression?

Brij
----

Brijnandan Singh Dehiya <b...@merle.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
>
>I often wonder why Hippies chant 'hare rama, hare krishna' while Shiva
>would be their ideal god. Shiva's worshippers are not supposed to:
>
>1. Care how they dress.
>2. Reject the ways of the material world.

err that should be 'accept'. Sorry.

Brij
----

I LIKED THE WORDS 'unusually high intellectual caliber.'

> >to them.
> >
> >        Actually, most of the religions in this world are
> >like Windows, just the user interface is good. Inside it
> >is fucked up. The people thinks that it a operating system,
> >it is just a GUI. Likewise, most of the religions are
> >Windows, good to use.
> >        Hinduism and some other religions are in a different
> >class. The are like Unix, time tested and modified according
> >to taste and orientation of people, that is why, so many
> >flavours exist today, both of unix and Hinduism.
> >        Like for windows, Bill Gates is the only God, but
>                             **************************
> Dont tell me there is now a temple in Bharat Varsh with
> Bill Gates as the idol - or perhaps his Linga.  This "God"
> doesnt eat milk or nuts or banana offerings - he only eats
> the all mighty DOLLAR and has an unsatiable appetite for it.
> This may prove to be an expensive "God" for dollar-starved
> Bharat varsh!

        INDIA IS A FREE LAND, IF ANY RELIGION CAN MAKE ITS
TEMPLES WHY NOT FOLLOWERS OF BILL GATES. HINDUISM NEVER
TAUGHT US TO CURTAIL ANY RELIGION, I DON'T KNOW YOUR
RELIGION GURUPDESH, BUT DOES IT TEACH YOU WHAT YOU ARE
TRYING TO TELL.

 
> >the unix users have many Gods. This dosen't goes on to show
> >that unix users are confused and just because of this Windows
> >is better. And it is a well known fact that for a windows
> >user it is nearly impossible to understand Unix.
> >        Some religions are like OS2, revered by some, and
> >specialized for some purpose, like Rajneeshites.
> >
> >
> >
> >All views are my personal views, just modified according to
> >time. I was fed-up reading those old-time stories about some
> >sadhu or some nirankari, coming from Guru-pdesh.
>                           ***********************
> Again burying your head in the ground is no argument.
> The myth I reported behind the Shiv-Lingum is not my
> creation - it was invented by your priests (the Brahmins)
> and can be found in their holy shastras.  Moreover,
> these tales are also common knowledge to people in different
> regions of the subcontinent.  So, dont shoot the messenger
> - I am simply reporting on the Shiv-Lingam mythology and did
> not create it.

        I AM NOT BURYING MY HEAD, BUT I AM SIMPLY UNAWARE OF
THAT COMING FROM ANY HINDUS. IF WHAT YOU SAID IS CORRECT
THEN WHY THIS CONTROVERSY AND THEN WHY YOU HAVE TO PROVE
YOUR POINT THAT HARD.

> This is why I asked people more knowledgeable about the shastras
> regarding this matter to come forward because otherwise in the
> absense of fact people begin to create "theories" to explain and
> the truth may get lost. Also others - denialists - come forward
> and start making incredible falsehoods like that "Linga does not mean
> penis (lun)", etc.  If Linga doesnt mean lun, then Shiva would have been
> a unik (?) or worse and Parvati would have been one unsatisfied dame!

        THIS PARAGRAPH SHOWS THAT YOU HAVE A PERSONAL HATRED TOWARDS
SOMEONE FOR WHOM MANY HAVE REVERENCE. I DON'T WANT TO FALL TO THE
level TO WHICH YOU HAVE FALLEN, BECAUSE I CAN'T.

 
> P.S. Choosing the word "unix" was a bad choice: it seems
>      too close to the word "unik" - that sadhu who was
>      castrated by the village folk for fooling around
>      with their wives.
>

  THAT WON'T CHANGE THE FACTS.

> Date: 14 Sep 96 03:50:27 -0500
> From: ukko...@cc.memphis.edu
> Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian, soc.culture.indian.jammu-kashmir,
>     soc.culture.pakistan, soc.culture.indian.delhi,
>     soc.culture.indian.gujarati, soc.culture.indian.marathi,
>     soc.culture.punjab, soc.culture.bengali
> Subject: Re: * Shiva-linga controversy *

>
> Brij wrote:
> > I remember vaguely a story that might be of some relevance here. Sometime
> > Kali the Goddess was in a destructive mood and went around destroying
> > everything she set sight upon. All the gods were terrified and asked Vishnu
> > for help who went to Shiva to request help in calming Kali down. Shiva then
> > proceeded to seduce Kali, thus taking her mind off her anger and saved the
> > world!
>
> Shiva has an exceedingly lousy taste in women. How _could_ he???????????
>

.. stuff deleted ..

   Brijji,
      I think you have hit something immeasurable here.  This communion
   of Shiva with the tumultuous Kali (reminds me of Indira G.) could explain
   how the Linga got detached from Shiva.  In order to save the world,
   Lord Shiva made the "supreme sacrifice" and this is worthy of recognition
   by people of all religious beliefs.  

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the representation of the Linga,
or penis, came about due to ascetic yogis.  Remember that in Kundalini
Yoga, the first place to concentrate on is the genital area.  And if
you read books on Kundalini Yoga, you will realize that it makes
attempts at channeling and transforming sexual energy.  Yogis in
meditation typically attempt to make the energy flow upwards to their
other chakras.  People who have experienced, or documented, this
energy flow, describe sudden erections etc.

Thus the representation of consciousness by those who understood it
best.

In article <51fqth$s...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu> gs...@cornell.edu (Gurupdesh Singh) writes:

.. stuff deleted ..

   Brijji,
      I think you have hit something immeasurable here.  This communion
   of Shiva with the tumultuous Kali (reminds me of Indira G.) could explain

   how the Linga got detached from Shiva.  In order to save the world,
   Lord Shiva made the "supreme sacrifice" and this is worthy of recognition
   by people of all religious beliefs.  

Now wait just a minute here!  Figurative representations of Kali are
far better looking than Indira Gandhi!  Kali is represented as a
furious woman.  She apparently has a better body than Indira Gandhi
any day.  Indira Gandhi looked terrible in comparison to Kali.

        All OSes are great, can you imagine about society with only
unix or only NT. There won't be anything to discuss !

Brijnandan Singh Dehiya (b...@merle.acns.nwu.edu) wrote:

: I remember vaguely a story that might be of some relevance here. Sometime
: Kali the Goddess was in a destructive mood and went around destroying
: everything she set sight upon. All the gods were terrified and asked Vishnu
: for help who went to Shiva to request help in calming Kali down. Shiva then
: proceeded to seduce Kali, thus taking her mind off her anger and saved the
: world!

Shiva laid on the path where Kali was supposed to go through
..when Kali stepped on Shiva, she was ashamed of herself and thus she
had her tongue out in shame..most of Kali images are representative
of this story...thus how she is portrayed atleast in Bengal when Kali-Puja
is celebrated..however your story of seduction of Kali is new to me..
 
: Brij
: ----

rgds,
Anindya.
--
email address: agho...@eng2.uconn.edu

Hiroshima 44 , Chernobyl 86 and now Windows 95 ! :(

Anindya Ghoshal <agho...@eng2.uconn.edu> wrote:
>
>Shiva laid on the path where Kali was supposed to go through
>..when Kali stepped on Shiva, she was ashamed of herself and thus she
>had her tongue out in shame..most of Kali images are representative
>of this story...thus how she is portrayed atleast in Bengal when Kali-Puja
>is celebrated..however your story of seduction of Kali is new to me..

He laid down in Kali's path naked. And I have seen references to their
mating in some old texts and pictures.

Brij
----

In article <51ndg1$h...@news.acns.nwu.edu> b...@merle.acns.nwu.edu (Brijnandan Singh Dehiya) writes:

.. stuff deleted ..

   In article <51mtdq$8...@bellboy.ucc.uconn.edu>,

Actually, that's a very good question.  I haven't read this story of
Kali and Shiva mating in the Shiva Purana either.  Where is this
version of the story ?  And I think we can do without the pictures,
unless we are using comics are sources. ;-)

In article <51fq97$s...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, gs...@cornell.edu (Gurupdesh Singh) writes:

|>Dont tell me there is now a temple in Bharat Varsh with
|>Bill Gates as the idol - or perhaps his Linga.  

Remember his is the Micro linga; and on top of it, it is soft.
Can match with stone linga, or a linga represented with
a "vibrator".

|>
|>Regards,
|>Gurupdesh
|>

Cheers.

> It is my opinion that woshipping the Shiva-linga is meant to convey the idea
> the sex and religion are inseparable since both of them have to do with
> morality. Your religion will, for the most art, determine your behaviour in
> sexual matters. Or it is possible that sex and religion are opposing forces,
> both of which are not evil by themselves but can lead to

The Lingam is a sign of fertility, especially male virility, not
sex specifically. Since fertility and offspring have always been
considered divine blessings, most religions have fertility symbols,
as does Hinduism.

> I remember vaguely a story that might be of some relevance here. Sometime
> Kali the Goddess was in a destructive mood and went around destroying
> everything she set sight upon. All the gods were terrified and asked Vishnu
> for help who went to Shiva to request help in calming Kali down. Shiva then
> proceeded to seduce Kali, thus taking her mind off her anger and saved the
> world!
>

As far as I remember the story, Shiva was insulted at his father-in-
law's (Himaavat?) sacrifice at which Parvati killed herself beacuse
of her grief. Shiva was incensed, and went on a rampage carrying
Parvati's dead body. The Gods decided that the only way to stop him
was to take Parvati's dead body away, so Vishnu followed him,
slicing away bits of the body with his discus. Ultimately Shiva did
calm down, and as a final act of love, transformed himself into a
lingam and dove into Parvati's vagina which had dropped somewhere
onto the earth (someplace in Assam or thereabouts I seem to recall),
and as mythology goes, this is how the Shivalinga originated.

Boy, I do love these mythological stories! Hindu

> It is my opinion that woshipping the Shiva-linga is meant to convey the idea
> the sex and religion are inseparable since both of them have to do with
> morality. Your religion will, for the most art, determine your behaviour in
> sexual matters. Or it is possible that sex and religion are opposing forces,
> both of which are not evil by themselves but can lead to
> etc. etc.

The Lingam is a sign of fertility, especially male virility, not
sex specifically. Since fertility and offspring have always been
considered divine blessings, most religions have fertility symbols,
as does Hinduism.

> I remember vaguely a story that might be of some relevance here. Sometime
> Kali the Goddess was in a destructive mood and went around destroying
> everything she set sight upon. All the gods were terrified and asked Vishnu
> for help who went to Shiva to request help in calming Kali down. Shiva then
> proceeded to seduce Kali, thus taking her mind off her anger and saved the
> world!
>
> Brij
> ----

As far as I remember the story, Shiva was insulted at his father-in-

Shiva was incensed, and went on a rampage carrying Parvati's dead
body. The Gods decided that the only way to stop him was to take
Parvati's dead body away, so Vishnu followed him, slicing away bits
of the body with his discus. Ultimately Shiva did calm down, and as
a final act of love, transformed himself into a lingam and dove into
Parvati's vagina which had dropped somewhere onto the earth
(someplace in Assam or thereabouts I seem to recall), and as
mythology goes, this is how the Shivalinga originated.

Boy, I do love these mythological stories and Hindu mythology
certainly is very imaginative wouldn't you say?

Nandita

> Heh heh heh. Dildos were invented in Bharat :-)
>
> Ahmad.
>
> p.s. No offence meant to Babuji (or to anyone else, as for that
> matter).

And women are really pleased. Maybe you should ask your girlfriend, mother or sister as
to how useful it is. ;-) No gaalees Mr. Rana. Take care.

Suminderpal Singh

           We can assume Human Beings as the C++ environment,and Hinduism,
            Islam,Christianity,Jewism etc as different classes defined
under it,and
            with these classes having their own instances , But still all
of them                    remain under C++ environment i.e. under that
Universal tree of                        Humanity.

THANKS..