MetaTitle removal poll

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MetaTitle removal poll Loz Calver 12/20/12 9:52 AM
In 3.1 beta1, MetaTitle was removed from the CMS module. In my opinion, it should stay, so I've created a poll to see what everyone else thinks:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dC12NlFwb0VaNkIwWk9pVDUyUlNmSWc6MQ

I don't know if it's possible to embed it here or something, so if it is let me know how and I'll do it.

Thanks
Re: [silverstripe-dev] MetaTitle removal poll David Brunelle 12/20/12 9:55 AM
I initially voted "No, put it back" - but now that I think about it: Adding a MetaTitle when it's needed is pretty trivial while having it present by default just results in more clutter.

-David

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Re: [silverstripe-dev] MetaTitle removal poll Nicolaas Thiemen Francken - Sunny Side Up 12/20/12 2:36 PM
Maybe in the SiteConfig you can choose whether or not to see it.  The
default is "turned off", but you can turn it on at any time with a
simple checkbox in the CMS.
Re: [silverstripe-dev] MetaTitle removal poll sheadawson 12/20/12 2:45 PM
What about making it a SiteTree extension so the developer can have the choice?



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Re: [silverstripe-dev] MetaTitle removal poll Colin Richardson 12/21/12 12:35 AM
I think this would be my preferred option. From my experience of populating sites built in SS3, it would also be easier to have the "SEO Info" (MetaTitle, MetaDescription) separate from the main page content, probably as a tab. It's nice to be able to whip through pages and just check if titles / descriptions need writing / updating.

Colin
Re: [silverstripe-dev] MetaTitle removal poll adver...@exadium.com 12/21/12 1:08 AM
I haven't checked out 3.1 yet, but is gone from the entire CMS and is the MetaDescription gone too? I've voted put it back as especially the MetaTitle is vital for SEO. Each page should have a unique keyphrase rich title. In my implementations I even move the MetaTitle and MetaDescription to the main content page to ensure it's completed. Suppose it wouldn't be to complicated to add it back manually in a extension, but I feel that the MetaTitle and MetaDescription should be part of core functionality in any CMS.

Marijn.
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Re: [silverstripe-dev] MetaTitle removal poll MarijnKampf 12/21/12 1:08 AM
I haven't checked out 3.1 yet, but is gone from the entire CMS and is the MetaDescription gone too? I've voted put it back as especially the MetaTitle is vital for SEO. Each page should have a unique keyphrase rich title. In my implementations I even move the MetaTitle and MetaDescription to the main content page to ensure it's completed. Suppose it wouldn't be to complicated to add it back manually in a extension, but I feel that the MetaTitle and MetaDescription should be part of core functionality in any CMS.

Marijn Kampf
Exadium - Online Marketing & Web Development
marijn@exadium.com / www.exadium.com
uk mobile: 07 525 49 9234 / uk phone: 01446 620 436 / nl phone: 035 71 10 379



On 21/12/2012 08:35, feejin wrote:
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Re: [silverstripe-dev] MetaTitle removal poll Loz Calver 12/21/12 1:10 AM
The MetaDescription is still there, it was MetaKeywords that was removed. I think there was just some confusion in the changelog
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Re: [silverstripe-dev] MetaTitle removal poll adver...@exadium.com 12/21/12 1:45 AM
Not worried about the MetaKeywords at all. They haven't been used by search engines for year. Still would recommend to keep the MetaTitle and MetaDescription as core functionality. Unique titles and descriptions on each page is the first thing I check for when SEO-ing my client's pages.
Re: [silverstripe-dev] MetaTitle removal poll Colin Richardson 12/21/12 3:41 AM
3.1 as it stands has the MetaDescription in the same place as 3.0.x but no MetaTitle.
Also no MetaKeywords but I think everyone agrees on removing that.
Re: [silverstripe-dev] MetaTitle removal poll Ingo Schommer 12/21/12 7:12 AM
Thanks for bringing this up. Would it be possible to open up the results of this survey?

Just to clarify the operation of SiteTree.MenuTitle in 2.x/3.0:
<title><% if $MetaTitle %>$MetaTitle<% else %>$Title<% end_if %> &raquo; $SiteConfig.Title</title>
So, it allows to set a custom title which is different from the page title,
and avoid appending the global SiteConfig.Title. This is relevant to SEO for two reasons:

1. The alternative <title> is a good opportunity to place keywords in a longer description, 
which might not be appropriate as the visible page title (<h1>).

2. Search engines truncate the title after around 70 characters,
so appending the global SiteConfig.Title can actually be harmful 

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Re: [silverstripe-dev] MetaTitle removal poll Loz Calver 12/21/12 7:17 AM
I can't seem to find any way of opening up the results, they're being saved in a spreadsheet in my Google Drive account.

Maybe I can share that document with the group? Will try again when I'm home

Re: [silverstripe-dev] MetaTitle removal poll Loz Calver 12/21/12 7:24 AM
Hopefully this link works: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AnQnfx_aIWbFdC12NlFwb0VaNkIwWk9pVDUyUlNmSWc
Re: MetaTitle removal poll dospuntocero 12/21/12 7:31 AM
i think that the best option is to move all the SEO stuff to a different module. since not all clients are interested in having more fields to fill and the search engines does a pretty good job on sites without those. if your client ask for those, you just drop the module in and thats it. usually i remove all the metatags part for my clients since they just see that part as clutter. they NEVER fill anything there, unless they use a company that is focused on SEO.

the easiest CMS is the one that provides less options. - you want to explain more stuff to your client? 

less is more, always. and if the client really needs those, you can get those to work using a module.



El jueves, 20 de diciembre de 2012 14:52:26 UTC-3, kinglozzer escribió:
Re: [silverstripe-dev] Re: MetaTitle removal poll banal 12/21/12 7:33 AM
+1. My thoughts exactly. Even googlesitemaps is an external module... so why not add a SEO module.
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Re: [silverstripe-dev] Re: MetaTitle removal poll Marcus Nyeholt 12/21/12 1:58 PM
I'm running late to pick someone up from the airport, so will leave a link here and come back to it later when I have a chance to actually provide some walkthrough getting-started type doco


It allows the specification of a standalone 'metadata schema' that can be applied to a content tree, and provide default values for various fields (including keywords from the content). So you could define an SEO schema that had Title, Description and Keywords, set them to default to $Title, $Content.Summary and then all your content would have default metadata set - allowing users to then customise it. 

Warning: I have no idea of the level of SS3 support in the module yet 
Re: [silverstripe-dev] Re: MetaTitle removal poll Uncle Cheese 12/23/12 6:36 PM
@dospuntocero nailed it. The great thing about SS is that it comes with very little magic, and instead makes it easy for you to create your own. SEO is one of those opinionated features that everyone does differently. Not every website or web application needs it, so it's just bloat. With the new Composer system in play, it would be easy to make an SEO module dependency part of your boilerplate SS install without polluting the core.
Re: [silverstripe-dev] Re: MetaTitle removal poll Nicolaas Thiemen Francken - Sunny Side Up 12/23/12 7:15 PM
totally agreed.
Re: [silverstripe-dev] Re: MetaTitle removal poll UndefinedOffset 12/24/12 9:03 AM
Defiantly, though in away I kinda disagree.. SS comes with the potential for allot of magic ;). I do like the fact that that MetaTitle and MetaKeywords get moved into a separate module instead of out right removed. But I think that description should stay in the main cms module since it is important to your SEO with MetaTitle and MetaKeywords less so at least now.

Happy Holidays everyone ;)
Re: [silverstripe-dev] Re: MetaTitle removal poll Ingo Schommer 1/11/13 2:42 AM
To follow up on this, here's the poll results:
- No, put it back: 7
- No, put it back and add it to a separate 'SEO' tab: 12
- Yes, remove it: 17

So given the poll was inconclusive, we'll keep the status quo.
As mentioned before, its a simple module. If somebody wants
to write up a generic "SEO" topic for doc.ss.org, we'll include a link to it.
This should ensure that the module gets some visibility.

Ingo
Re: [silverstripe-dev] Re: MetaTitle removal poll Loz Calver 1/11/13 3:03 AM
Thanks for the votes all.

Given the results I agree Ingo, the question I'd ask now is that if SEO isn't needed on every site and is considered 'bloat', why not remove the 'MetaDescription' and 'ExtraMeta' fields and put those in a module as well?

Removing some SEO fields and not others doesn't seem to make sense to me.

Loz
Re: [silverstripe-dev] Re: MetaTitle removal poll Nicolaas Thiemen Francken - Sunny Side Up 1/11/13 1:50 PM
extraMeta is definitely a lot less commonly used than metatitle (and
when it is used, it tends to break the site). So why remove MetaTitle
when ExtraMeta is not removed.

Also, a lot of good ideas / comments were put forward in this thread.
Perhaps they are worth exploring.

One other important question: what is the difference in processing
time between adding a field in the core and as a data-extension? I
tend to think that extensions are slower.  If half of us add Metatitle
back in then this is a big drag.

Nicolaas
Re: [silverstripe-dev] Re: MetaTitle removal poll mattclegg 1/11/13 2:14 PM

I agree with Aaron above that while it is great to have (and is a strong point against other CMS), its not always being used effectively. I personally think it would be good to have a standard SEO module that adds MetaTitle, MetaDescription, (optional MetaKeywords like Nicolaas mentioned) etc.

I normally use a small piece of code to populate MetaDescription with the first paragraph of text if there is no MetaDescription.

If anyone fancies doing some scoping/coding for an all encompassing SEO module this weekend let me know

mattclegg

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Re: [silverstripe-dev] Re: MetaTitle removal poll Loz Calver 1/17/13 7:36 AM
I agree that if MetaTitle is being removed, then it makes sense for all SEO to be packaged up into a module and removed from the core. SEO is either bloat or it isn't, not half and half. If I've the time I might build the SEO module and just re-use the 3.0.x stuff where possible.

- Loz
Re: [silverstripe-dev] Re: MetaTitle removal poll Nicolaas Thiemen Francken - Sunny Side Up 1/18/13 11:34 PM
Sorry to repeat myself, but I just could not help to say the following (again):

If MetaTitle is removed then "Custom Meta Tags" should definitely be removed in my opinion.  For the following reasons:

1. most of the time only used on one page (e.g. for Google Webmaster Tools Authentication)

2. often misused by admins with a broken website as a result

3. rarely used at all (in comparison with MetaTitle).

Also, from the many comments and the divided opinions, I would recommend that a few options are explored before a final decision is taken.  Doing it right first time will save discussion + redoing later on: measure 100 times cut once. 

@Kinglozzer: I think the idea is that Page Title is used as Meta Title, hence it can be removed more easily than the other fields (which do not have a "back-up" field).

Nicolaas
Re: MetaTitle removal poll baba-papa 1/20/13 8:11 AM
@Ingo: I just can not believe this whole thread even exists. Especially commercial websites need visibility. The meta data is vital for a website. For what kind of client are these people here working for? If you are an abled programmer you might remove these fields by decorating.
Is there any possibility to just delete this thread and never talk about it again?
Re: MetaTitle removal poll Ingo Schommer 1/21/13 1:17 AM
Hello Roland. This is a valid – and so far fairly civilized – discussion. I'm not going to delete (censor) any threads unless they have clearly abusive content.
Re: [silverstripe-dev] Re: MetaTitle removal poll Zenmonkey 1/21/13 4:04 AM
Really this comes down to a usability. For the most part most clients never touch the custom meta. I'll optimize on the initial build but unless they're serious about SEO they never do anything. For custom pages I usually programmatically  build Meta Titles and Descriptions based on the object data contained if those fields are blank

In terms of visibility. Google only uses meta tags if they're there and they seem to be downplaying then as they get better at parsing actual content. Google always prefers content to markup. I have one client who does nothing from technical SEO perspective yet always ranks top 3 in SERPs because of content. The only benefit to optimizing the meta tags would be SERP styling. Ensuring keywords show to be bolded. 

And yes its no big deal to programmatically hide those fields just as its no big deal to add them, but we're looking for consensus on general use. If they're not used, they're extraneous. I say look to google; it's good if its good for the user. 

Sent from my iPhone

On 2013-01-20, at 11:11 AM, baba-papa <rol...@musik-lehmann.de> wrote:

@Ingo: I just can not believe this whole thread even exists. Especially commercial websites need visibility. The meta data is vital for a website. For what kind of client are these people here working for? If you are an abled programmer you might remove these fields by decorating.
Is there any possibility to just delete this thread and never talk about it again?

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Re: MetaTitle removal poll baba-papa 1/21/13 7:19 AM
Hello Ingo,

I lost my temper, sorry.
Usually I would not take part in a discussion with this subject because my time is precious. I was shocked because you implied that SilverStripe might follow this idea. A module for three fields. Two directories plus at least two files for three fields. Is this lightweight? The metadata fields are bidden behind an accordion so they are not distracting anyone.
If SilverStripe is basing its future upon poll upon two dozens of developers it might go out bad.
There is a lot of work to do on framework and CMS, useful and important. Letting the meta data disappear is a featurette which lets my daily work get harder.


Am Montag, 21. Januar 2013 10:17:27 UTC+1 schrieb Ingo Schommer:
Re: [silverstripe-dev] Re: MetaTitle removal poll Opticblaze 1/21/13 7:38 AM
I agree with Zenmonkey. So long as we dont loose the functionality completely ie.we must make sure that it goes in another module, i dont see the harm. Lets face it most of us configure our sites in ways that we prefer. So for some of us a module like userforms or google site map is stock standard with the sites we build. The issue is as unclecheese said that we need to keep it lean and mean. Whoever wants to add the extra modules are free to do so.
Re: [silverstripe-dev] Re: MetaTitle removal poll Ingo Schommer 1/21/13 8:04 AM
I think the issue has been discussed at length.
Everybody has their own preferences, SilverStripe provides good defaults
but doesn't strive to make a perfect default setup for every use case.
I think its a testament to SilverStripe's API that its such a small module,
and particularly with the new composer abilities there's very little
overhead in maintaining a project with a few more modules.

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Re: [silverstripe-dev] MetaTitle removal poll Loz Calver 1/21/13 8:59 AM
Personally I don't understand why it was removed from 3.1 without some form of community discussion beforehand - given that it is something that affects a large number of sites. My take on it is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". 

I'm happy for it to be in a module if that's what the community as a whole decides/agrees on, as long as all modules can be moved into a '/modules' folder! Server roots are starting to get clustered :P. 

Also, if we're aiming to make the CMS as simple and easy to use as possible, why is custom meta tags still there when it gives CMS users the power to completely break the <head> of their site?

I don't think there's an outcome that will please everyone. My preferred solution, if it's going to be removed, is to remove everything SEO and package it into a module. 

Loz


On Monday, 21 January 2013, Ingo Schommer wrote:
I think the issue has been discussed at length.
Everybody has their own preferences, SilverStripe provides good defaults
but doesn't strive to make a perfect default setup for every use case.
I think its a testament to SilverStripe's API that its such a small module,
and particularly with the new composer abilities there's very little
overhead in maintaining a project with a few more modules.

On 21/01/2013, at 4:19 PM, baba-papa <roland@musik-lehmann.de> wrote:

Hello Ingo,

I lost my temper, sorry.
Usually I would not take part in a discussion with this subject because my time is precious. I was shocked because you implied that SilverStripe might follow this idea. A module for three fields. Two directories plus at least two files for three fields. Is this lightweight? The metadata fields are bidden behind an accordion so they are not distracting anyone.
If SilverStripe is basing its future upon poll upon two dozens of developers it might go out bad.
There is a lot of work to do on framework and CMS, useful and important. Letting the meta data disappear is a featurette which lets my daily work get harder.


Am Montag, 21. Januar 2013 10:17:27 UTC+1 schrieb Ingo Schommer:
Hello Roland. This is a valid – and so far fairly civilized – discussion. I'm not going to delete (censor) any threads unless they have clearly abusive content.

On Sunday, January 20, 2013 5:11:02 PM UTC+1, baba-papa wrote:
@Ingo: I just can not believe this whole thread even exists. Especially commercial websites need visibility. The meta data is vital for a website. For what kind of client are these people here working for? If you are an abled programmer you might remove these fields by decorating.
Is there any possibility to just delete this thread and never talk about it again?

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Re: [silverstripe-dev] MetaTitle removal poll Loz Calver 4/15/13 3:50 AM
Given that the poll results were pretty-much even and that it's already been removed, I've created a module for re-adding the 'MetaTitle' field. As mentioned on the Github page, pull requests for more/improved translations are welcome:

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