Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws

Showing 1-54 of 54 messages
Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws cmh...@umich.edu 10/31/02 6:44 AM
There's been some traffic on the Chinese method of throw jumps which is
obviously successful in achieving big throws, but at the expense of
classical throw technique. This brings to mind the various little
compromises to classical jump technique that allows people to do things
like quads.

Anyway, I see this as an evolutionary choice. The Chinese don't have the
gorilla/flea option because of the small stature of most of their male
skaters (which btw, is also a problem in the US, as most decent FS skaters
here tend to be relatively short; not too many giants ever learn a 2x, let
alone a 3t). Now they could choose to be stuck in the 70's and do small
throws, or they could invent a technique which gets big throws. They've
chosen the latter approach, but it does seem to be out of control
sometimes. However, consistent results do suggest that the method has been
mastered enough for it to be useful.

Watching SA, I was struck by the fact that the Chinese technique is
actually a joint jump, which really is a new element in pairs skating.
Although it still looks a bit clumsy, I personally prefer it to the
gorilla/flea option, which looks even worse and tends to create the most
ridiculous pairs spins imaginable.

I'd like to see the Chinese technique developed further, as this might
open up pairs skating to a wider range of skaters. The extended male free
leg on landing seems to be a first step, and is probably needed for
balance. If the throw is treated as a jump by the male skater, could there
be a half rotation while in the air, with a landing on a back edge? Right
now, they are landing on a forward edge, sometimes with a hop. Could that
be the next step? Remember, innovation can be a good thing!

--
Chris M. Hall, Assistant Research Scientist
Dept. of Geological Sciences, University of Michigan

Quando omni flunkus moritati

Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws Jeanne 10/31/02 7:01 AM
<< Remember, innovation can be a good thing! >>

I agree with you. One of the teams had a nice ballet jump look to his throw.
It's so new, to me anyways, that the style may have to grow on people. I can
see potential in this new look/technique with the throws.

Jeanne


Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws Skatfan 10/31/02 9:20 AM
>Anyway, I see this as an evolutionary choice. The Chinese don't have the
>gorilla/flea option because of the small stature of most of their male
>skaters (which btw, is also a problem in the US, as most decent FS skaters
>here tend to be relatively short; not too many giants ever learn a 2x, let
>alone a 3t). Now they could choose to be stuck in the 70's and do small
>throws, or they could invent a technique which gets big throws. They've
>chosen the latter approach, but it does seem to be out of control
>sometimes. However, consistent results do suggest that the method has been
>mastered enough for it to be useful.

Wow, I had never thought of it this way before.  Certainly Tong and Zhang look
better doing it than Zhao.

>Watching SA, I was struck by the fact that the Chinese technique is
>actually a joint jump, which really is a new element in pairs skating.
>Although it still looks a bit clumsy, I personally prefer it to the
>gorilla/flea option, which looks even worse and tends to create the most
>ridiculous pairs spins imaginable.

Now if the Chinese can only learn how to do a good pairs spin.  The ones I saw
were pretty ugly and traveled and re-centered all over the place.

Renee

Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws Kaiju 10/31/02 11:30 AM
cmh...@umich.edu wrote:
> There's been some traffic on the Chinese method of throw jumps which is
> obviously successful in achieving big throws, but at the expense of
> classical throw technique. This brings to mind the various little
> compromises to classical jump technique that allows people to do things
> like quads.
>
> Anyway, I see this as an evolutionary choice. The Chinese don't have the
> gorilla/flea option because of the small stature of most of their male
> skaters (which btw, is also a problem in the US, as most decent FS skaters
> here tend to be relatively short; not too many giants ever learn a 2x, let
> alone a 3t).

Sorry.  The Chinese men pair skaters are definitely not small.  They
were the same size as the European and North American skaters.  You must
be thinking of the singles skaters.


> Now they could choose to be stuck in the 70's and do small
> throws, or they could invent a technique which gets big throws. They've
> chosen the latter approach, but it does seem to be out of control
> sometimes. However, consistent results do suggest that the method has been
> mastered enough for it to be useful.

A cynic might note that the throws are large primarily because the
ladies pairs skaters weigh around 75 pounds.  They are noticeably
smaller than the European and North American skaters.  Frankly, I think
they'd get bigger throws if they used the proper technique.

> I'd like to see the Chinese technique developed further, as this might
> open up pairs skating to a wider range of skaters.

I think they should just learn how to skate properly.

> The extended male free
> leg on landing seems to be a first step, and is probably needed for
> balance. If the throw is treated as a jump by the male skater, could there
> be a half rotation while in the air, with a landing on a back edge? Right
> now, they are landing on a forward edge, sometimes with a hop. Could that
> be the next step? Remember, innovation can be a good thing!

Not always.  Seems to me that Dmitriev and Grinkov could get their
partners quite high in the air...without looking like they are going to
pitch forward on their faces.  What you are missing here is that it is
the Chinese ladies who are making this abomination work.  They have the
ability to land the jumps.  Using proper technique, the European and
North American men can throw their partners as high as the Chinese men
do...but do not really try because the ladies can't land the jump.  Not
because of some "gorilla/flea" concept, or pitched broads.

If anything, the other countries' skaters need to concentrate more on
the ladies' ability to land throw jumps, not concentrating on learning
bad throwing technique.


Kaiju <the original cynic...>


Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws shaka laka 10/31/02 11:59 AM
What?  The Chinese teams didn't invent the kick and hop "technique"
for throws.  It's a genuine flaw that's been around since as long as
people have been doing throws.  It's considered bad technique in the
same  way that a flutz, or a  cheated jump, or a bad catch on a twist
is considered bad technique.  It mars the cleanliness of the throw.
Judges can choose to not mark it down, but it shouldn't become
accepted technique (imagine if judges decided to accept a cheated jump
as an avenue to make singles skating more open to people who can't
jump cleanly)
The chinese have developed their pairs program with lightning speed
and used the big tricks to get their names out there, which is really
impressive.  But they've sacrificed getting some basic techniques down
in the process.
Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws cmh...@umich.edu 10/31/02 12:53 PM
In <3DC184B0...@ecn.com>, on 10/31/02
   at 11:29 AM, Kaiju <ka...@ecn.com> said:

>cmh...@umich.edu wrote:
>>
>> Anyway, I see this as an evolutionary choice. The Chinese don't have the
>> gorilla/flea option because of the small stature of most of their male
>> skaters (which btw, is also a problem in the US, as most decent FS skaters
>> here tend to be relatively short; not too many giants ever learn a 2x, let
>> alone a 3t).

>Sorry.  The Chinese men pair skaters are definitely not small.  They
>were the same size as the European and North American skaters.  You must
>be thinking of the singles skaters.

Understand I'm not talking just about SA. Are they the "same size"? Zhao?
Really? Compared to Eisler, Zimmerman, Grinkov, Pelletier, Sikhuralidze
(sp?) etc.?


>> I'd like to see the Chinese technique developed further, as this might
>> open up pairs skating to a wider range of skaters.

>I think they should just learn how to skate properly.

OK, you don't want to see any changes.

snip

>> be the next step? Remember, innovation can be a good thing!

>Not always.  Seems to me that Dmitriev and Grinkov could get their
>partners quite high in the air...without looking like they are going to
>pitch forward on their faces.  What you are missing here is that it is
>the Chinese ladies who are making this abomination work.  They have the
>ability to land the jumps.  Using proper technique, the European and
>North American men can throw their partners as high as the Chinese men
>do...but do not really try because the ladies can't land the jump.  Not
>because of some "gorilla/flea" concept, or pitched broads.

Well, when G&G started, they really were the epitome of the gorlla/flea
look (Gordeeva was incredibly tiny). Even to the end, they were a definite
size mismatch. And Grinkov would have towered over the Chinese men. (In
his out of shape state, Dmitriev would certainly be much bigger, at least
horizontally, and his throws could be quite laboured IIRC ;-)

In any event, S&Z and the other Chinese pairs do get more height and
distance to the throws. I agree that the Chinese ladies land better, but
they have to.

>If anything, the other countries' skaters need to concentrate more on
>the ladies' ability to land throw jumps, not concentrating on learning
>bad throwing technique.

Again it's the "we did it that way in the old days, so that's the way it
should be" argument. Fine.


--
Chris M. Hall, Assistant Research Scientist
Dept. of Geological Sciences, University of Michigan

Quando omni flunkus moritati

Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws cmh...@umich.edu 10/31/02 12:56 PM
In <fc0f0e1f.02103...@posting.google.com>, on 10/31/02

This may be true, but I'd like to hear about other pairs that got the same
height or distance in the past. Especially, any pairs that landed throw
quads (in practice).

--
Chris M. Hall, Assistant Research Scientist
Dept. of Geological Sciences, University of Michigan

Quando omni flunkus moritati

Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws Kaiju 10/31/02 2:05 PM
cmh...@umich.edu wrote:
> In <3DC184B0...@ecn.com>, on 10/31/02
>    at 11:29 AM, Kaiju <ka...@ecn.com> said:
>
>
>>cmh...@umich.edu wrote:
>>
>>>Anyway, I see this as an evolutionary choice. The Chinese don't have the
>>>gorilla/flea option because of the small stature of most of their male
>>>skaters (which btw, is also a problem in the US, as most decent FS skaters
>>>here tend to be relatively short; not too many giants ever learn a 2x, let
>>>alone a 3t).
>>
>
>>Sorry.  The Chinese men pair skaters are definitely not small.  They
>>were the same size as the European and North American skaters.  You must
>>be thinking of the singles skaters.
>
>
> Understand I'm not talking just about SA. Are they the "same size"? Zhao?
> Really? Compared to Eisler, Zimmerman, Grinkov, Pelletier, Sikhuralidze
> (sp?) etc.?

The Chinese male pairs skaters at SA were definitely not small.  In
fact, something that seems to elude you, not all Chinese men are small.
  And yes, they compare to at least Zimmerman and Pelletier in size.

>>>I'd like to see the Chinese technique developed further, as this might
>>>open up pairs skating to a wider range of skaters.
>>
>
>>I think they should just learn how to skate properly.
>
>
> OK, you don't want to see any changes.

No.  I am saying changes aren't needed...except for the Chinese who need
to learn how to skate properly.


> snip
>
>
>>>be the next step? Remember, innovation can be a good thing!
>>
>
>>Not always.  Seems to me that Dmitriev and Grinkov could get their
>>partners quite high in the air...without looking like they are going to
>>pitch forward on their faces.  What you are missing here is that it is
>>the Chinese ladies who are making this abomination work.  They have the
>>ability to land the jumps.  Using proper technique, the European and
>>North American men can throw their partners as high as the Chinese men
>>do...but do not really try because the ladies can't land the jump.  Not
>>because of some "gorilla/flea" concept, or pitched broads.
>
>
> Well, when G&G started, they really were the epitome of the gorlla/flea
> look (Gordeeva was incredibly tiny). Even to the end, they were a definite
> size mismatch. And Grinkov would have towered over the Chinese men. (In
> his out of shape state, Dmitriev would certainly be much bigger, at least
> horizontally, and his throws could be quite laboured IIRC ;-)

Dmitriev's first partner was hardly a "flea", and he was smaller then.
He definitely hurled her across the ice, and with proper technique.
See, there is this amazing thing about good technique.  One can
accomplish much more, with lots less effort.


> In any event, S&Z and the other Chinese pairs do get more height and
> distance to the throws. I agree that the Chinese ladies land better, but
> they have to.

Duh.  I'll repeat again.  The other male skaters can achieve the same
height and distance on the throws.  They don't because the ladies can't
land the jumps.  Is this a difficult concept for you to grasp?  Even
Button and Fleming noted this during their commentary.


>>If anything, the other countries' skaters need to concentrate more on
>>the ladies' ability to land throw jumps, not concentrating on learning
>>bad throwing technique.
>
>
> Again it's the "we did it that way in the old days, so that's the way it
> should be" argument. Fine.

No.  That is not it at all.  I explained my point quite clearly.

I'm sure you aren't really an idiot, so why do you persist in acting
like one?


Kaiju


Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws Trudi Marrapodi 10/31/02 3:09 PM
In article <fc0f0e1f.02103...@posting.google.com>,
jjack...@aol.com (shaka laka) wrote:

I could more easily accept this throw technique if, well, it looked good,
and not as if the man was out of control and about to fall flat on his
face...which is how it usually looks. He usually looks as if he's
shot-putting, only without the twirling around and around and around
before releasing his load with a huge grunt.
--
Trudi

"On the morning of June 6, 1944,
A lot of German's were dropping to the floor."
--couplet from a D-Day poem written by a high school student

Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws shaka laka 10/31/02 3:31 PM
I also meant to add a note about thesize differential and throw
height.  Even if the Chinese men skaters were much smaller than their
European counterparts (and the Chinese teams didn't have that much in
the way of size difference between them), they would still be able to
get good height on the throws.  I understand that a big size
differential a la Gordeeva/Grinkov helps with this and is a pretty
important asset in pairs, but the main reason that throws were not as
high in the 70's as they are today is that the ladies were larger
then.  Throwing isn't about tossing the chick up as high as you can;
it's about throwing her as high as she can land the jump.  If you're a
larger/taller girl, you won't be able to land as easily as the
Gordeevas and Pang Qings of the world.  If you're small, your partner
is more free to chuck you as high as he pleases, and you're still
gonna be able to land (if you hold up your end of the bargain, that
is.).  Bottom line: it's not all that hard to throw a girl high up in
the air (just look at the height on twist lifts) , but it *is* hard
for the girl to land the thing.  the higher you pitch, the more
difficult the landing.  the more pounds you've chucked into the air,
the more difficult the landing.  That's where having a light female
partner comes in handy- it doesn't have *all* that much to do with the
male partner's size, since all guys competing at this level should
have enough strength to hoist their partner in the air.


jjack...@aol.com (shaka laka) wrote in message news:<fc0f0e1f.0210311159.1ad06a05@posting.google.com>...

Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws Shallah 10/31/02 7:34 PM
> >Sorry.  The Chinese men pair skaters are definitely not small.
They
> >were the same size as the European and North American skaters.  You
must
> >be thinking of the singles skaters.
>
> Understand I'm not talking just about SA. Are they the "same size"?
Zhao?
> Really? Compared to Eisler, Zimmerman, Grinkov, Pelletier,
Sikhuralidze
> (sp?) etc.?

I once looked up the heights of some of the top world & american pairs
teams to compare the height difference between the lady and the man.
Here the the ones I could find:

Danielle Hartsell 5' 3" Steve Hartsell 5' 9"
Kyoko Ina 5' John Zimmerman 6'
Stephanie Kalesavich 5' 2"  Aaron Parchem 5' 10"
Tiffany Scott 5' Philip Dulebohn 5'9"
Jamie Salé 5' 1"  David Pelletier 5' 10"
Tatiana Totmianina 5' 3"  Maxim Marinin 6' 1"
Xue Shen 5' 1" Hongbo Zhao 5' 9"
Elena Berezhnaya either 4' 11" or 5' Anton Sikharulidze 6'
Sarah Abitbol 4' 11" Stephane Bernadis 5' 11"
Maria Petrova 5' Alexei Tikhonov 6' 2"

Shallah
~~~
Want to contact ABC & ESPN over FS coverage? Go here:
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Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws shaka laka 10/31/02 9:59 PM
cmh...@umich.edu wrote in message news:<rAgw9.266$ho1....@news.itd.umich.edu>...

>
> This may be true, but I'd like to hear about other pairs that got the same
> height or distance in the past. Especially, any pairs that landed throw
> quads (in practice).

Historically, the great Russian pairs have aimed to perform throws
that emphasized distance over height, since they're easier to land and
run less risk of injury.  Landing big throws can put tremendous strain
on a girl pairs skater's ankles, knees, hips, back.  Also, pairs
skaters in the past have not necessarily put all their energy into
generating massive throws, but rather in developing good technique
that they can rely upon in competition.

I don't know about throw quads, but Abitbol and Bernadis used to try
the throw triple axel in competition.  More to the point, I agree with
Kaiju (btw sorry Kaiju for repeating so much of what you said better
than I could- your post slipped in) that throw triple axels and quad
sals speak more to the strength of the lady than that of the man.
When you add multiple revolutions, the centripetal force increases
exponentially, along with the force that the girl has to withstand
upon landing the throw.  Also, it's not like people jump any higher
when they do quads than when they do triples.  There's been studies
done where skaters jump exactly the same height for their waltz jump
and their triple axel.  There's plenty of room in most people's throws
for another revolution, but it all depends on the strength and
lightness of the female to be able to withstand that pressure of
landing a 4-rev jump.  The man's role is to "place" her in the air in
such a way that will allow her to complete the jump- this requires
steady positioning on his part.  After all, in the rulebook, throws
are labeled "assisted jumps", not throws.

What I'm trying to say (and I think Kaiju is too)- these Chinese teams
have shown a lot of talent in being able to land these big throws,
even with faulty technique.  I owe it to the girls being so light and
strong, and with a good sense of balance.  The leg kick thing isn't
really a help but rather a hindrance at the moment- if they could get
the man's throwing technique down better, I bet they would be landing
the quads with great consistency.

Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws GingerBelle Juliesse 11/1/02 12:09 AM

"Kaiju" <ka...@ecn.com> wrote in message news:3DC1A91F.1090001@ecn.com...

> I'm sure you aren't really an idiot, so why do you persist in acting
> like one?
>
>
> Kaiju

Are you capable of disagreeing with people without using ad hominem attacks?
:(

Cynthia Marie


Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws Kaiju 11/1/02 1:31 AM

Certainly.  I do when someone isn't being deliberately offensive and
insulting first.  Or do you believe I must be "nice" to someone who
definitely is not?


Kaiju

--

     No more fiendish punishment could be devised,
     were such a thing physically possible,
     than that one should be turned loose in society
     and remain absolutely unnoticed.

     -- William James

Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws Kaiju 11/1/02 2:40 AM
Shallah wrote:
>
> > >Sorry.  The Chinese men pair skaters are definitely not small.
> They
> > >were the same size as the European and North American skaters.  You
> must
> > >be thinking of the singles skaters.
> >
> > Understand I'm not talking just about SA. Are they the "same size"?
> Zhao?
> > Really? Compared to Eisler, Zimmerman, Grinkov, Pelletier,
> Sikhuralidze
> > (sp?) etc.?
>
> I once looked up the heights of some of the top world & american pairs
> teams to compare the height difference between the lady and the man.
> Here the the ones I could find:

<snip representative list of pair skaters' heights>

Thanks, Shallah.  You prove my point.  There is even less differential
between this crop of Chinese male pair skaters and the rest of the
international male pairs skaters.  They are mostly pretty much within
the same range.


Kaiju

--

     No more fiendish punishment could be devised,
     were such a thing physically possible,
     than that one should be turned loose in society
     and remain absolutely unnoticed.

     -- William James

Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws GingerBelle Juliesse 11/1/02 3:02 AM

"Kaiju" <ka...@ecn.com> wrote in message news:3DC24950.B44C7612@ecn.com...

> Cynthia Marie wrote:
> >
> > "Kaiju" <ka...@ecn.com> wrote in message
news:3DC1A91F.1090001@ecn.com...
> > > I'm sure you aren't really an idiot, so why do you persist in acting
> > > like one?
> > >
> > >
> > > Kaiju
> >
> > Are you capable of disagreeing with people without using ad hominem
attacks?
> > :(
>
> Certainly.  I do when someone isn't being deliberately offensive and
> insulting first.  Or do you believe I must be "nice" to someone who
> definitely is not?
>
>
> Kaiju
>
> --

OK Chris, are you being deliberately offensive and insulting?  Because if
you are, I don't see it. ;)

Cynthia Marie


Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws Kaiju 11/1/02 3:46 AM
shaka laka wrote:
>

> Historically, the great Russian pairs have aimed to perform throws
> that emphasized distance over height, since they're easier to land and
> run less risk of injury.

Quite true.  In fact, distance has traditionally been regarded as more
admirable than height.  Height may be easier to appreciate by the
general audience, but precise assisted jumps are more difficult and more
highly regarded.

<snip>

> I don't know about throw quads, but Abitbol and Bernadis used to try
> the throw triple axel in competition.  More to the point, I agree with
> Kaiju (btw sorry Kaiju for repeating so much of what you said better
> than I could- your post slipped in)

I was thinking the same about what you've been writing!  ;>

> that throw triple axels and quad
> sals speak more to the strength of the lady than that of the man.
> When you add multiple revolutions, the centripetal force increases
> exponentially, along with the force that the girl has to withstand
> upon landing the throw.  

Which is the primary reason why European and North American pairs don't
go for height in the throw jumps.

> Also, it's not like people jump any higher
> when they do quads than when they do triples.  There's been studies
> done where skaters jump exactly the same height for their waltz jump
> and their triple axel.

Yes.  But the triple axel generally requires more height, and most
skaters who use waltz jumps to warm up are doing them at triples
heights.  It is probably one of those chicken-and-the-egg analyses.

>  There's plenty of room in most people's throws
> for another revolution, but it all depends on the strength and
> lightness of the female to be able to withstand that pressure of
> landing a 4-rev jump.  The man's role is to "place" her in the air in
> such a way that will allow her to complete the jump- this requires
> steady positioning on his part.  After all, in the rulebook, throws
> are labeled "assisted jumps", not throws.

And if the male skater is already off-balance, the likelihood of him
being able to "place" the female is significantly lessened.


 
> What I'm trying to say (and I think Kaiju is too)- these Chinese teams
> have shown a lot of talent in being able to land these big throws,
> even with faulty technique.  I owe it to the girls being so light and
> strong, and with a good sense of balance.  The leg kick thing isn't
> really a help but rather a hindrance at the moment- if they could get
> the man's throwing technique down better, I bet they would be landing
> the quads with great consistency.

Exactly.  Good Technique Is Fundamental.  If the technique is there,
more true advancements in skating is possible...and inevitable.  I'm
rather surprised the Chinese take the easy way out, frankly.  Maybe the
Chinese skaters don't have a passing knowledge of kung fu, but there are
specific, defined ways of using the body to maximize strength and
speed...and martial artists intrinsically know this.  (I'd love to see a
trained martial artist (especially in Tai Chi) who can skate do a throw
jump...bet he can do it without that gawdawful pitch!)  It isn't evident
in the Chinese male pairs skaters, however.  That pitch the broad
technique tells the story of how they've learned figure skating...via
videotape enhanced by people who really don't know.  I give full credit
to the ladies who manage to make it all work...despite...

Oh, well.  If good intentions were gold...the Chinese pairs would be
winning it.


Kaiju

--

     No more fiendish punishment could be devised,
     were such a thing physically possible,
     than that one should be turned loose in society
     and remain absolutely unnoticed.

     -- William James

Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws cmh...@umich.edu 11/1/02 5:41 AM
In <7btw9.1010$SX1.40...@news.inreach.com>, on 11/01/02
   at 03:03 AM, "Cynthia Marie" <aeriew...@hotmail.com> said:

>OK Chris, are you being deliberately offensive and insulting?  Because if
>you are, I don't see it. ;)

>Cynthia Marie

I didn't think so either (maybe it was the evil Chris). I will leave it to
others to determine who has the more reasonable tone ;-) Anyway, I guess
my real point is that whenever the sport wants to push the envelope  in
any particular area, something usually has to give. In the case of
enormous size differential, I think things like pairs spins, pairs spiral
elements, and death spirals suffer badly. When you have a smaller male
skater (and 5' 9" {is that really Zhao's height?} is small these days for
a male skater; didn't Steve and Danielle have to split up?), really big
throws and lifts become difficult. When at the same time, you are pushing
the envelope, you have to make some modifications to technique to get the
job done. It's obviously a gamble, both with the judges, and as you can
see, with many fans. If it gets accepted, however, it can evolve into the
new "proper" technique.

Let's just leave it at this: I personally am less offended by S&Z's throw
technique than I was with G&G when they first started. I thought that the
extreme size difference completely altered the very nature of pairs
skating. It was more like FS and a half skating! Please note: I really
think that they became a truly great pair, even with a fairly large size
difference, so you G&G fans out there please don't leap for the kill.

But hey, that's just my opinion. If people find it insulting, well, I'll
just leave it at that.

--
Chris M. Hall, Assistant Research Scientist
Dept. of Geological Sciences, University of Michigan

Quando omni flunkus moritati

Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws Althealeo 11/1/02 8:15 AM
<<Anyway, I guess my real point is that whenever the sport wants to push the
envelope  in any particular area, something usually has to give. In the case of
enormous size differential, I think things like pairs spins, pairs spiral
elements, and death spirals suffer badly. When you have a smaller male
skater (and 5' 9" {is that really Zhao's height?} is small these days for a
male skater; didn't Steve and Danielle have to split up?), really big hrows and
lifts become difficult. >>

From Shallah's list, the two closest-in-size teams are from the U.S. and China
-- but I&Z have a pretty average size differential, and the newer Chinese pairs
have a bigger difference, as Kaiju (I think) pointed out.  Anyway, I agree with
those who have said that the difference-in-size is sort of a red herring -- I
think it is difficult to do lifts and to some degree even throws when you're
close in size, but in reality there's so much more that matters, such as
strength of the guy.  And height is just one thing -- weight's more important,
I would think, and the Chinese teams perhaps have just as much of a
differential there.  *And* (as others have pointed out) the really important
thing in a throw is the lady's ability to land it.  


All that said, I do prefer the teams that are more evenly matched in size (all
other things being equal, which they're not)....I really liked the Hartsells,
for instance, despite their flaws.  But I seem to recall the size differential
being more of an issue on things like lifts, and not necessarily throws --  did
Steve Hartsell 'pitch' Danielle?  (Of course, they had less of a weigh
differential as well, I'm assuming -- Danielle was thin, but hardly as thin as
some of the pair skaters out there.))


I'm all for pushing the boundaries of the sport, but I don't think that's the
intent here.  I think the Chinese men, for whatever reason (random luck, bad
coaching, whatever) just don't have great technique.  And, even if someone
comes along and starts experimenting with deliberately trying to incorporate
some move into the men's choreography for throws, it's probably still going to
look sloppy.  And, more important, it's dangerous.

-- Kate


Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws cmh...@umich.edu 11/1/02 8:28 AM
In <aivw9.316$ho1....@news.itd.umich.edu>, on 11/01/02
   at 08:04 AM, cmh...@umich.edu said:


>I didn't think so either (maybe it was the evil Chris). I will leave it
>to others to determine who has the more reasonable tone ;-)

Replying to myself. I just thought that someone might not get that this is
a Star Trek (and even SNL) reference, and that anyone out there who posts
and whose name is Chris might be offended. Don't be. It refers to me. It's
sort of like the Dr. Sandhu references you see here.

--
Chris M. Hall, Assistant Research Scientist
Dept. of Geological Sciences, University of Michigan

Quando omni flunkus moritati

Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws Gorilma98 11/1/02 8:47 AM
>>I didn't think so either (maybe it was the evil Chris). I will leave it
>>to others to determine who has the more reasonable tone ;-)
>
>Replying to myself. I just thought that someone might not get that this is
>a Star Trek (and even SNL) reference, and that anyone out there who posts
>and whose name is Chris might be offended. Don't be. It refers to me. It's
>sort of like the Dr. Sandhu references you see here.
>
>--
>Chris M. Hall,

As a fellow "Chris" and trekkie, I did get the Star Trek reference for what it
was. But thanks for the clarification anyway. I forgot about the SNL parody
with Shatner, but I now can't get the image of the evil "Mr. Spock" with his
beard out of my mind. ;-)

Skating reference: I wonder if anyone has ever skated to music from any of the
"Star Trek" motion pictures?

Chris ( who is sometimes evil, but has never grown a beard....which is
fortunate, since society seems to view beards on women as odd)

Star Trek music was Re: Pitched broads ... cmh...@umich.edu 11/1/02 9:33 AM
In <20021101114624.11177.00002475@mb-fi.aol.com>, on 11/01/02
   at 04:46 PM, gori...@aol.com (Gorilma98) said:

>Skating reference: I wonder if anyone has ever skated to music from any
>of the "Star Trek" motion pictures?

>Chris ( who is sometimes evil, but has never grown a beard....which is
>fortunate, since society seems to view beards on women as odd)

Well I've heard them at low level competitions, but the only one I can
remember at the senior level was a program briefly used by Todd Eldredge.
Can't remember whether it was SP or FS, but he did use some of the themes
from Star Trek 8 (First Contact) which was the first all SSTNG movie (and
one of the best made: kept up the tradition of the even ones being the
good ones). It's very stately, but it doesn't have much tempo change.

Now if one were cynical, then any skater who has used some James Horner
music (e.g. Titanic, Zorro, etc.) would probably have used snippets that
sound a lot like Star Treks 2 and 3 (Wrath of Khan, Search for Spock),
which were also written by Horner. But I've not heard of anyone using them
in a program at the National or International levels.

Chris (waiting for #10, Nemesis, which is I think Jerry Goldsmith)

--
Chris M. Hall, Assistant Research Scientist
Dept. of Geological Sciences, University of Michigan

Quando omni flunkus moritati

Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws Kaiju 11/1/02 1:42 PM
cmh...@umich.edu wrote:
> In <7btw9.1010$SX1.40...@news.inreach.com>, on 11/01/02
>    at 03:03 AM, "Cynthia Marie" <aeriew...@hotmail.com> said:
>
>>OK Chris, are you being deliberately offensive and insulting?  Because if
>>you are, I don't see it. ;)
>
>
>>Cynthia Marie
>
>
> I didn't think so either (maybe it was the evil Chris). I will leave it to
> others to determine who has the more reasonable tone

I certainly won't leave it up to the resident troll to judge.

>  When you have a smaller male
> skater (and 5' 9" {is that really Zhao's height?} is small these days for
> a male skater; didn't Steve and Danielle have to split up?), really big
> throws and lifts become difficult.

For a research scientist, you certainly play loose and easy with
details.  From the list Shallah provided, at least 5 pairs had/have
males who are between 5'9" and 5'11" tall.  (Assuming there is not that
much significance in a 2" differential, and I sincerely doubt there is.)
  The Chinese men are not working with a handicap here.  They are not
pushing the envelope of pairs skating.  They simply have bad technique
that is correctable.

> When at the same time, you are pushing
> the envelope, you have to make some modifications to technique to get the
> job done. It's obviously a gamble, both with the judges, and as you can
> see, with many fans. If it gets accepted, however, it can evolve into the
> new "proper" technique.

It isn't necessary.  The Chinese are not pushing any envelope, unless it
is how bad they can be technically.  The Chinese simply need to learn
proper technique.

> But hey, that's just my opinion. If people find it insulting, well, I'll
> just leave it at that.

What is insulting is when you refuse to read or acknowledge what others
have taken time to write, then proceeding to make a bogus, offensive
conclusion.  I don't doubt for a moment that you don't know what you're
doing when you do it, either.


Kaiju

Star Trek music was Re: Pitched broads ... Gorilma98 11/1/02 2:14 PM
(snip: Star Trek music in skating)


>Chris (waiting for #10, Nemesis, which is I think Jerry Goldsmith)
>

And it IS an even numbered one, so hopefully it will continue the tradition of
being "good" (with or without skating)

Chris

Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws Bev Johnston 11/1/02 2:39 PM
I've never understood about the Chinese technique.  It seems like they
would get more out of the throw if the man's feet remained firmly
anchored on the ground.  It seems like throwing something while you're
off the ground and moving through the air would be weaker, unstable,
and dangerous.  Physics experts???

Whatever the case, I think this "technique" looks absolutely
horrendous.  It's very distracting and scary to boot.

Bev

Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws Kaiju 11/1/02 4:20 PM
Bev Johnston wrote:
> I've never understood about the Chinese technique.  It seems like they
> would get more out of the throw if the man's feet remained firmly
> anchored on the ground.  It seems like throwing something while you're
> off the ground and moving through the air would be weaker, unstable,
> and dangerous.  Physics experts???

You're absolutely correct.  They would get more out of the throw if the
man's feet remained firmly on the ice...and instead they use their
thighs and abdominal muscles for strength.  It is logical, actually.

> Whatever the case, I think this "technique" looks absolutely
> horrendous.  It's very distracting and scary to boot.

No kiddin'.


Kaiju


Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws TCAXEL 11/1/02 4:28 PM
>I've never understood about the Chinese technique.  It seems like they
would get more out of the throw if the man's feet remained firmly
anchored on the ground.  It seems like throwing something while you're
off the ground and moving through the air would be weaker, unstable,
>and dangerous.  Physics experts???
>
>Whatever the case, I think this "technique" looks absolutely
>horrendous.  It's very distracting and scary to boot.
>
>Bev
****************************
It's like saying a wild out of control landing on a jump is a *new* technique.
 When you show lack of control, or mastery of your edges, or even seem out of
balance on the ice, how can that be considered a logical progression in figure
skating?

The Chinese male skaters look like they're about to fall face down on the ice.
Compare that, with say, some of the top Russian male skaters who throw their
partners without leaving ice, and even proceed to SKATE through their throw
(Grinkov was the shining example, Scotty H. even compared his throw vis-a-vis
Artur during the '94 Pairs LP to show how smoother Sergei's follow- through
after the throw was)

Smaller skaters than the Chinese men have shown good technique in throw jumps.
To somehow say that this is an "evolutionary" step in figure skating which
sacrifices good technique for out-of balance bumbling on the ice is IMO not a
sound argument.

Theo


"As long as you have the mental game down, your techniques are solid,
physically all you need is just your body to be there with you." -Venus
Williams

Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws Shallah 11/1/02 5:59 PM
> Danielle Hartsell 5' 3" Steve Hartsell 5' 9"
> Kyoko Ina 5' John Zimmerman 6'
> Stephanie Kalesavich 5' 2"  Aaron Parchem 5' 10"
> Tiffany Scott 5' Philip Dulebohn 5'9"
> Jamie Salé 5' 1"  David Pelletier 5' 10"
> Tatiana Totmianina 5' 3"  Maxim Marinin 6' 1"
> Xue Shen 5' 1" Hongbo Zhao 5' 9"
> Elena Berezhnaya either 4' 11" or 5' Anton Sikharulidze 6'
> Sarah Abitbol 4' 11" Stephane Bernadis 5' 11"
> Maria Petrova 5' Alexei Tikhonov 6' 2"

More info on Skate America skaters
Yuko Kawaguchi 5'1" Alexander Markuntsov 5'11"
Qing Pang 5' 3" Jian Tong 5' 11"
Dan Zhang 5' 2" Hao Zhang 5' 11"
Annabelle Langlois 5' 3" Patrice Archetto 6' 2"
Tiffany Scott 5' Philip Dulebohn 5' 9"

I am now trying to find weights but so far I am only finding them in
metric which I am not used to at all. Here are a few weights so people
will know just how much weight is being pitched across the rink:

Qing Pang 41 kg Jian Tong 72 kg
Danielle Hartsell 46 kg  Steve Hartsell 76 kg - I know they broke up
but some in the past said Danielle was overweight yet she was only 5
kg over the very thin Qing Pang!
Xue Shen 45 kg Zhao Hongbo 76 kg
Maria Petrova 42 kg Alexei Tikhonov 72 kg
Sarah Abitbol 43 kg Stephane Bernadis 80 kg
Jamie Sale 49 David Pelletier 80 kg
Elena Berezhnaya 42 kg Anton Sikharulidze 79 kg

Shallah
~~~
Want to contact ABC & ESPN over FS coverage? Go here:
Ask ABC Sports
http://espn.go.com/abcsports/askabcsports/
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FS Petition protesting the new scoring system:
Figure Skating's problem is not the scoring system, it is the cheating
of judges and officials
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/783533460


Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws Althealeo 11/1/02 9:53 PM
>Danielle Hartsell 46 kg  Steve Hartsell 76 kg - I know they broke up but some
in the past said Danielle was overweight yet she was only 5 kg over the very
thin Qing Pang!>

If I'm not mistaken, though, 5 kg translates into about 11 pounds, which while
not huge, probably does look like a difference.  About versus about 110 pounds.
 That said, let me just say that Harstell is NOT NOT NOT overweight by any
standard.  In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if *all* these folks were right at
the lower edge of what's considered 'normal', and in most cases underweight.
Hartsell's probably about 110 pounds and that's pretty slender for a 5'3"
female.  And I've seen her in person and she is definitely petite.

-- Kate

Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws Kaiju 11/1/02 11:31 PM
TCAXEL wrote:
 

> It's like saying a wild out of control landing on a jump is a *new* technique.
>  When you show lack of control, or mastery of your edges, or even seem out of
> balance on the ice, how can that be considered a logical progression in figure
> skating?

Theo, did you notice how at least one of the Chinese pairs (Pang and
Tong, perhaps?) had three-turns choreographed following their triple
jump?  That was brilliant, actually.  The triples weren't exactly
steady, but the choreographed three-turn allows them a chance to save
the jump without being accused of turn outs.  (See?  Despite my claims
to the contrary, I actually was paying attention!  Har!)  So what if it
was just *this* side of cheating...I guess some would claim it was
pushing the envelope of figure skating.
 

Kaiju <the occasionally somnambulant skating fan...>

--

     No more fiendish punishment could be devised,
     were such a thing physically possible,
     than that one should be turned loose in society
     and remain absolutely unnoticed.

     -- William James

Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws Kaiju 11/2/02 3:17 AM

She *is* petite.  Here are some of the conversions, at least for the
ladies you've listed.  (I have far too much time on my hands,
exacerbated by insomnia.)

Qing Pang: 41 kg = 90 lb (that must include her skates and beaded
dress...)
Danielle Hartzell: 46 kg = 101 lb
Xue Shen: 45 kg = 99 lb
Maria Petrova: 42 kg = 93 lb
Sarah Abitbol: 43 kg = 95 lb
Jamie Sale: 49 kg = 108 lb
Elena Berezhnaya: 42 kb = 93 lb.

The heaviest man in this limited sample group weighs a hefty 176 lbs!

These are all Bird People with Hollow Bones.

Gorilla/Flea indeed.  If it weren't for the skates, they'd all fly
without any assistance given a moderate breeze.  Forget the gawdawful
pitch.  Just turn on some fans in the arena and be done with it.


Kaiju <imagine...in this grouping, Jamie Sale is a little piglet!>

--

     No more fiendish punishment could be devised,
     were such a thing physically possible,
     than that one should be turned loose in society
     and remain absolutely unnoticed.

     -- William James

Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws Trudi Marrapodi 11/2/02 5:55 AM
In article <f9491328.0211...@posting.google.com>,
hiding...@aol.com (Bev Johnston) wrote:

> I've never understood about the Chinese technique.  It seems like they
> would get more out of the throw if the man's feet remained firmly
> anchored on the ground.  It seems like throwing something while you're
> off the ground and moving through the air would be weaker, unstable,
> and dangerous.  Physics experts???
>
> Whatever the case, I think this "technique" looks absolutely
> horrendous.  It's very distracting and scary to boot.
>
> Bev

I too am starting to wonder about "the physics of 'pitching the broad.'" I
would think the man would actually *lose* momentum, as you said, by flying
off the ice during the course of his throw. Granted, as others have said,
it's not like he's throwing an inanimate object, and it is not so much a
"throw" as an "assisted jump." But is he really "assisting" so much if he
loses contact with the ice when he does it? It's not as if he is really
"springing" into a jump himself to boost her, which would add momentum to
his assist. To do that, he'd have to crouch down with her and then spring
her up into the throw, and that would be even more painfully obviously bad
form on both their parts.

Of course, I dropped out of high school physics, so...what I'm looking for
is someone who has more than "theories" to explain what's going on here.
--
Trudi

"On the morning of June 6, 1944,
A lot of German's were dropping to the floor."
--couplet from a D-Day poem written by a high school student

Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws BaleofAKS 11/2/02 8:11 AM
>Qing Pang: 41 kg = 90 lb (that must include her skates and beaded
>dress...)

90 pounds???  That's it??  OMG....how tall is she?

Let's compare that figure to another sport where weight is vital.  Every single
female jockey I know weighs OVER 90 pounds.

90 pounds cannot be healthy.

LB
BaleofAKS@AOL.com

Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws Ruth Lafler 11/2/02 11:55 AM

"BaleofAKS" <bale...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021102111052.06119.00000039@mb-bd.aol.com...

> >Qing Pang: 41 kg = 90 lb (that must include her skates and beaded
> >dress...)
>
> 90 pounds???  That's it??  OMG....how tall is she?

Not that tiny -- 5'1 or so

> 90 pounds cannot be healthy.

You've seen her, right? She looks like you could break her in two with one
hand. At that, I think she's bigger than the Japanese pair skater,
Kawaguchi.

The Chinese pair skaters showed up for their first Skate America practice in
unitards, and it wasn't pretty -- bones sticking out all over.

--Ruth


Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws Shallah 11/2/02 11:55 AM
>Here are some of the conversions, at least for the
> ladies you've listed.  (I have far too much time on my hands,
> exacerbated by insomnia.)
>
> Qing Pang: 41 kg = 90 lb (that must include her skates and beaded
> dress...)
> Danielle Hartzell: 46 kg = 101 lb
> Xue Shen: 45 kg = 99 lb
> Maria Petrova: 42 kg = 93 lb
> Sarah Abitbol: 43 kg = 95 lb
> Jamie Sale: 49 kg = 108 lb
> Elena Berezhnaya: 42 kb = 93 lb.
>
> The heaviest man in this limited sample group weighs a hefty 176
lbs!
>
> These are all Bird People with Hollow Bones.
>
> Gorilla/Flea indeed.  If it weren't for the skates, they'd all fly
> without any assistance given a moderate breeze.  Forget the
gawdawful
> pitch.  Just turn on some fans in the arena and be done with it.
>
>
> Kaiju <imagine...in this grouping, Jamie Sale is a little piglet!>

Thanks Kaiju! Whatever I learned about metric in school I promptly
forgot. It is much easier for me to deal with pounds than kilograms!
All of this reminds me of an article I read about how most female
skaters would be considered underweight by normal health standards. I
hope all these ladies & the men too are careful to get plenty of
minerals in their diet to protect their bones. from what I have read
it is easy for people like these to make themselves more prone to
osteoporosis - men included.

Shallah
~~~
Want to contact ABC & ESPN over FS coverage? Go here:
Ask ABC Sports
http://espn.go.com/abcsports/askabcsports/
ESPN TV
http://espn.go.com/sitetools/s/contact/espntv.html

FS Petition protesting the new scoring system:
Figure Skating's problem is not the scoring system, it is the cheating
of judges and officials
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/783533460


Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws cmh...@umich.edu 11/4/02 7:36 AM
In <trudee-0211...@pg052.clarityconnect.com>, on 11/02/02

Well Trudi, I kept my physics just a bit longer (PhD in 1982 ;-) so I think I can explain it to you. Despite what Kaiju says, you do get an advantage using the S&Z method, if you just look at height and distance and time in the air (meaning that they are not total idiots). What you give up is that the man will become airborne.

To a reasonable first approximation, the time in the air for a projectile (lady) is given by (using BASIC notation):

t = (v*sin(theta) + sqrt((v^2)*(sin(theta))^2 + 2*g*h))/g

where theta is the angle that the launch makes with the horizontal, h is the launch height and v is the speed of the projectile at the time of the launch, and g is the acceleration due to gravity (sqrt is square root, * is multplication, and ^ is exponentiation). If you use metric, g is 9.8 m/s^2. For those metrically challenged people who prefer feet to metres, g is 32 ft/s^2. The horizontal velocity of the throw (virtually constant in the air) is v*cos(theta) and the initial vertical velocity component is v*sin(theta). If theta is 90 degrees, the throw is straight up, if 0 it is horizontal only. Horizontal distance travelled will be t * v * cos(theta). Strictly speaking, h should be measured as the height of the lady's centre of mass minus the length her centre of her landing leg at landing.

This is only an approximation, as air resistance is omitted. The force due to drag is 0.5*Cd*rho*v^2, where Cd is the drag coefficient of the lady (increases with the amount of toilet paper attached to the dress ;-), rho is the density of air and v is the speed again. Including this term greatly increases the complexity of the problem. Fortunately, v is too small for this to be a significant effect.

Now height does matter. Just by increasing h by a few inches one, can get a few extra milliseconds out of the jump/throw, which might make the difference between a landed jump and a cheated one (total time in the air is likely to be only about 500-700 ms anyway).

But more important are the terms v and theta. The horizontal component is mostly provided by speed across the ice, but the vertical component is provided by both the lady's legs and the assist from the man. For a really high jump, you want to maximize v*sin(theta), but you also need to compromise for distance by keeping v*cos(theta) reasonable (sin decreases as cos increases; they are equal at 45 degrees, but cos(theta) is taken care of by speed across the ice). Now you could try to just augment the lady's vertical jump with a static vertical lift from the man (like a catapult), but that will be limited by the upper body strength of the man. His legs will be involved, but not as much as they can be.

If, however, you don't mind having everyone leave the ice, you can use some of that leg power that isn't used in the static throw and increase the upward velocity of the whole male/female system. And the legs are a lot more powerful than the arms. This will increase the vertical component of the lady and increase the time in the air. It is not necessary for the man's feet to remain on the ice during the entire female acceleration phase either. From Newton's 3rd law (action = reaction in opposite direction), the man can accelerate the lady in the air at the expense of his own vertical vleocity. Think of S&Z as a catapult that has been sprung into the air, or a 2 stage rocket, with all the non-Chinese pairs being fixed catapults. And by increasing the distance over which the acceleration takes place, you get more vertical velocity without having to increase the maximum force, so a shorter person can get a higher throw without pulling a muscle.

Now some ground truth. Ask yourself, if having your feet planted is so good, why do javellin throwers and shot putters all leave the ground when they throw?

As for the height issue, I'm afraid that I've always thought that Zhao was a bit on the short side for a top pair skater, while Shen is about average, and the following photo from World's shows how I might have got that impression:

http://lara.pair.com/shenzhao/

(Zhao is the little guy hiding in the middle of the back row ;-)


Chris (who is also short, and likes to root for us short guys out there)

--
Chris M. Hall, Assistant Research Scientist
Dept. of Geological Sciences, University of Michigan

Quando omni flunkus moritati

Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws Kaiju 11/4/02 9:11 PM
> cmh...@umich.edu wrote:
>
> In <trudee-0211...@pg052.clarityconnect.com>, on 11/02/02
>    at 08:58 AM, trudee@clarityconnect.competent (Trudi Marrapodi) said:


> >I too am starting to wonder about "the physics of 'pitching the broad.'"
> >I would think the man would actually *lose* momentum, as you said, by
> >flying off the ice during the course of his throw. Granted, as others
> >have said, it's not like he's throwing an inanimate object, and it is not
> >so much a "throw" as an "assisted jump." But is he really "assisting" so
> >much if he loses contact with the ice when he does it? It's not as if he
> >is really "springing" into a jump himself to boost her, which would add
> >momentum to his assist. To do that, he'd have to crouch down with her and
> >then spring her up into the throw, and that would be even more painfully
> >obviously bad form on both their parts.
>
> >Of course, I dropped out of high school physics, so...what I'm looking
> >for is someone who has more than "theories" to explain what's going on
> >here. --
> >Trudi
>
> Well Trudi, I kept my physics just a bit longer (PhD in 1982 ;-) so I think I > can explain it to you. Despite what Kaiju says, you do get an advantage using > the S&Z method, if you just look at height and distance and time in the air > (meaning that they are not total idiots). What you give up is that the man > will become airborne.

Once again.  Maybe you'll actually absorb the point at long last.  The
pairs that use the proper technique can achieve the same height and
distance as the Chinese pairs.  They do not do so because the objective
is to land the jump.  The Chinese ladies can land the high jumps with
good consistency.  *That* is the only difference here...besides the fact
that the Chinese have poor technique.

I swear.  You purport to reiterate my "point", but you still don't get
what I actually wrote.  How do you manage to be a research scientist
when you disregard essential facts?  Besides, it is obvious you aren't
that familiar with the principles of kinesiology...or else you are
deliberately ignoring them in your effort to win a pissing contest.
 


> Now some ground truth. Ask yourself, if having your feet planted is so good, > why do javellin throwers and shot putters all leave the ground when they > throw?

And martial artists manage to achieve great height and distance throwing
inanimate objects without ever having a foot leave the ground.  In fact,
they use the ground for power.  How do you explain that?


 
> As for the height issue, I'm afraid that I've always thought that Zhao was a
> bit on the short side for a top pair skater, while Shen is about average,

Height isn't as important as form, technique, and body mechanics,
anyway.  Athletes and athletic coaches have known this for generations.
Assimilate that.
 

Kaiju

--

     No more fiendish punishment could be devised,
     were such a thing physically possible,
     than that one should be turned loose in society
     and remain absolutely unnoticed.

     -- William James

Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws Trudi Marrapodi 11/5/02 3:53 AM

Great, but can you explain it in English? :-)

> Despite what Kaiju says, you do get an advantage using the S&Z method,
if you > just look at height and distance and time in the air (meaning
that they are
> not total idiots). What you give up is that the man will become airborne.
>
> To a reasonable first approximation, the time in the air for a
projectile (lady) is given by (using BASIC notation):
>
> t = (v*sin(theta) + sqrt((v^2)*(sin(theta))^2 + 2*g*h))/g
>
> where theta is the angle that the launch makes with the horizontal, h is
the launch height and v is the speed of the projectile at the time of the
launch, and g is the acceleration due to gravity (sqrt is square root, *
is multplication, and ^ is exponentiation).

OK, I think you've already lost me. :-)

> If you use metric, g is 9.8 m/s^2. For those metrically challenged
people who > prefer feet to metres, g is 32 ft/s^2. The horizontal
velocity of the throw
> (virtually constant in the air) is v*cos(theta) and the initial vertical
> velocity component is v*sin(theta). If theta is 90 degrees, the throw is
> straight up, if 0 it is horizontal only. Horizontal distance travelled
will be > t * v * cos(theta). Strictly speaking, h should be measured as
the height of
> the lady's centre of mass minus the length her centre of her landing leg at
> landing.
>
> This is only an approximation, as air resistance is omitted. The force
due to > drag is 0.5*Cd*rho*v^2, where Cd is the drag coefficient of the
lady
> (increases with the amount of toilet paper attached to the dress ;-),

I guess we should be glad no one is trying to throw Takeshi Honda.

> rho is the density of air and v is the speed again. Including this term
> greatly increases the complexity of the problem. Fortunately, v is too small
> for this to be a significant effect.

Then again, if they were on an outdoor rink...


 
> Now height does matter. Just by increasing h by a few inches one, can get a
> few extra milliseconds out of the jump/throw, which might make the
difference > between a landed jump and a cheated one (total time in the
air is likely to be > only about 500-700 ms anyway).
>
> But more important are the terms v and theta. The horizontal component is
> mostly provided by speed across the ice, but the vertical component is
> provided by both the lady's legs and the assist from the man. For a really
> high jump, you want to maximize v*sin(theta), but you also need to
compromise > for distance by keeping v*cos(theta) reasonable (sin
decreases as cos
> increases; they are equal at 45 degrees, but cos(theta) is taken care of by
> speed across the ice). Now you could try to just augment the lady's vertical
> jump with a static vertical lift from the man (like a catapult), but
that will > be limited by the upper body strength of the man. His legs
will be involved,
> but not as much as they can be.

I'm following a little better here.

> If, however, you don't mind having everyone leave the ice, you can use
some of > that leg power that isn't used in the static throw and increase
the upward
> velocity of the whole male/female system.

This is starting to sound dirty.

> And the legs are a lot more powerful than the arms. This will increase the
> vertical component of the lady and increase the time in the air. It is not
> necessary for the man's feet to remain on the ice during the entire female
> acceleration phase either. From Newton's 3rd law (action = reaction in
> opposite direction), the man can accelerate the lady in the air at the
expense > of his own vertical vleocity. Think of S&Z as a catapult that
has been sprung > into the air, or a 2 stage rocket, with all the
non-Chinese pairs being fixed > catapults. And by increasing the distance
over which the acceleration takes
> place, you get more vertical velocity without having to increase the maximum
> force, so a shorter person can get a higher throw without pulling a muscle.

Seeing them as a two-stage rocket actually helps. The thrust of the stages
when they detach isn't less just because there's no earth to push against.
Yes. I get that.


 
> Now some ground truth. Ask yourself, if having your feet planted is so good,
> why do javellin throwers and shot putters all leave the ground when they
> throw?

Well, what they're throwing is much smaller to begin with...you'd think
they'd have less control over that...but I suppose it doesn't matter?


 
> As for the height issue, I'm afraid that I've always thought that Zhao was a
> bit on the short side for a top pair skater, while Shen is about
average, and > the following photo from World's shows how I might have got
that impression:
>
> http://lara.pair.com/shenzhao/
>
> (Zhao is the little guy hiding in the middle of the back row ;-)
>
>
> Chris (who is also short, and likes to root for us short guys out there)

OK. Thanks for the short course in "the physics of short guys throwing
stuff." :-)


--
Trudi

"On the morning of June 6, 1944,
A lot of German's were dropping to the floor."
--couplet from a D-Day poem written by a high school student

Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws Bbarlou 11/5/02 5:26 AM
"I swear.  You purport to reiterate my "point", but you still don't get
what I actually wrote.  How do you manage to be a research scientist
when you disregard essential facts?  Besides, it is obvious you aren't
that familiar with the principles of kinesiology...or else you are
deliberately ignoring them in your effort to win a pissing contest."
Don't you realize that "Trudi" knows everything about everything?  How dare you
question Mother Superior???????
Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws cmh...@umich.edu 11/5/02 7:17 AM
In <3DC75235...@ecn.com>, on 11/04/02
   at 09:08 PM, Kaiju <ka...@ecn.com> said:


>Once again.  Maybe you'll actually absorb the point at long last.  The
>pairs that use the proper technique can achieve the same height and
>distance as the Chinese pairs.

Show me one pair with the man at 5' 9" and a lady at 5' 3" who gets the
same height as S&Z. In fact, show me any pair that gets the same height as
S&Z. Please provide height estimates. You can use video, but be careful of
foreshortening effects (it's tricky getting a good reproducible size
reference). You keep stating that other pairs get the same results. Can
you please provide references? The reason why I am skeptical is because,
at least to me, it seems that S&Z easily have the highest throw jumps
around right now. But I'm willling to be convinced. By evidence, please,
not just by assertion.


  They do not do so because the objective
>is to land the jump.  The Chinese ladies can land the high jumps with
>good consistency.  *That* is the only difference here...besides the fact
>that the Chinese have poor technique.

Umm, yes they can land high jumps, and they have high jumps. In fact they
are really high jumps. I was merely trying to explain how they can get
really high jumps.

>I swear.  You purport to reiterate my "point", but you still don't get
>what I actually wrote.  How do you manage to be a research scientist when
>you disregard essential facts?  Besides, it is obvious you aren't that
>familiar with the principles of kinesiology...or else you are
>deliberately ignoring them in your effort to win a pissing contest.
>

Please be civil. I was not aware that I claimed to reiterate your point
(I'm not entirely sure what it is, actually). I am a research scientist
because of competence in my field. Do you want any reprints? I am very
familiar with the physics that is the basis of kinesiology, which involves
force, mass, torque, moment of inertia, momentum, angular momentum, etc.
You see, I'm also an engineer ;-)

>> Now some ground truth. Ask yourself, if having your feet planted is so good, > why do javellin throwers and shot putters all leave the ground when they > throw?

>And martial artists manage to achieve great height and distance throwing
>inanimate objects without ever having a foot leave the ground.  In fact,
>they use the ground for power.  How do you explain that?
>

And this is relevant, how? How "great" is great? Is their technique
competitive with Olympic track and field athletes? What records have been
set? Are you saying that a martial artist can throw a shot better than an
Olympic shot putter using their technique?

As for "using the ground for power", that is a statement which is very
misleading, at least, in the physics sense. The ground does not supply ANY
power (which, by the way, means the rate of use of energy, and in the
mechanical sense is calculated as force times distance divided by time).
It CAN be used to supply reaction mass. When you jump upward, you push the
Earth away from you (yes the Earth does move, just not very much, and no
sniggering from Trudi please :-). However, the throwing person also can
provide reaction mass. Imagine two skaters facing each other. If one
pushes off from the other, they will move away from each other in opposite
directions.

Now look at the centre of mass (CM) of the pairs skaters. In the classical
method, the CM does go up as the male skater rises from a crouch (with
some "gorilla's" this is a rather awkward moment as they have a long way
to squat down) and the female is lifted. Around the time of release,
however, the male's vertical velocity is zero by the time that his legs
are extended (i.e. he does not leave the ice). The energy for the female
is supplied by her legs and  from force x distance from the male's arms.
There is a little lift for the whole system from the male's legs, but it
is limited by the requirement that the man stay on the ice. To go any
further, however, extra force must be applied from the man's arms (i.e.
extra torque on shoulders and elbows provided by the muscles which are
acting as linear actuators). If the forces get too great there is a danger
of damage to the muscle, or to the tendons attaching it to the bone, or to
the attachment point itself (not to mention fractures).

In the S&Z technique, the CM of the entire system rises more quickly
because of a greater leg spring. In this case, they are not retricting
themselves to having the man's vertical velocity be zero when his legs (in
fact, entire body) are extended. This means that the whole system's
vertical velocity is greater. The Earth is used as reaction mass for the
whole system's CM, and for part of the female's acceleration phase, the
man is still connected to the ground (not for "power" but for reaction
mass; they supply the power). IIRC,, however, the two are still connected
when he leaves the ice (it's a close thing; I'll look more closely next
time I see them). He can still provide acceleration to the lady, but now
HE is the reaction mass. At this stage, he is supplying all the power, and
all the reaction mass.

So, my basic point is that IMHO, S&Z do have among the highest throws if
not the highest throws around. They achieve this with a non standard
method, which may very well be deemed unattractive. They use this method
for a reason. The reason is that with the same amount of arm strength
(force applied by muscles) they can get greater vertical velocity in the
throw because they are using the man's legs more effectively and extending
the duration of the acceleration phase. The extension of the acceleration
phase can also eliminate any disadvantage one might have if the male is
relatively short. To get the same effect with the classical method would
require greater acceleration over a shorter throw distance leading to
greater force requirements (F = ma), and that, I suspect, is the limiting
factor. If you are already maxed out on force (and Zhao is a pretty strong
dude: he can do quite good lifts, which is also a measure of strength),
then the only other way to get more height in the throw is from more jump
from the lady. One could assert that the classical technique is more
energy efficient in the sense that energy is not "wasted" in vertical
motion of the male skater. That, however, is not a very good "figure of
merit", if other factors, such as muscle strength limitations come into
play, and what you really want is height in the throw.

Look, I don't want a shouting match. I was merely interested in the
Chinese technique, and I was trying to explain the reasons why I think
they are doing it. It's not because they are stupid, and it's certainly
not to annoy the judges! There are pretty good physical reasons for the
method, if throw height is your chief goal. If it is deemed too ugly, then
they should get deductions for it. So far, I've seen no evidence for this.
(I'd like to see deductions for some pretty nasty lift and pairs spin
positions used by some teams!) They have been dinged for poor spins, but
as far as I can tell, the judges aren't coming down hard against them for
the throws. Yet.

--
Chris M. Hall, Assistant Research Scientist
Dept. of Geological Sciences, University of Michigan

Quando omni flunkus moritati

Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws cmh...@umich.edu 11/5/02 8:12 AM
In <20021105082624.07723.00002238@mb-mn.aol.com>, on 11/05/02

I think you fired at the wrong person. It wasn't Trudi that said that, it
was Kaiju. Now take several deep breaths and relax.

--
Chris M. Hall, Assistant Research Scientist
Dept. of Geological Sciences, University of Michigan

Quando omni flunkus moritati

Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws Bbarlou 11/5/02 9:57 AM
"I think you fired at the wrong person. It wasn't Trudi that said that, it
was Kaiju. Now take several deep breaths and relax."
I believe it was Kaiju responding to Trudi thinking she knows everything about
everything, when she is really a lot of hot air who loves to see her words in
print.
Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws cmh...@umich.edu 11/5/02 10:29 AM
In <20021105125652.07875.00002617@mb-mn.aol.com>, on 11/05/02

No, it was Kaiju was responding to me.

--
Chris M. Hall, Assistant Research Scientist
Dept. of Geological Sciences, University of Michigan

Quando omni flunkus moritati

Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws Althealeo 11/5/02 10:35 AM
I know that we've sort of focused on whether it's easier for a couple to
achieve height if the man sort of jumps off the ice....(and I personally have
long since gotten lost in that discussion!)...but is that really the main
issue?  The Chinese technique looks sloppy to me, and it can't be safe.  

-- Kate

Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws cmh...@umich.edu 11/5/02 12:12 PM
In <20021105133453.25540.00000034@mb-ch.news.cs.com>, on 11/05/02

>-- Kate

Well, S&Z seem to have a lower crash and burn rate on throws than many
others (e.g. I&Z, or possibly even B&S). It is a higher jump (in my
opinion, there are some who dispute that) and that does mean more impact
on landing (harder on ankles, knees, hips). However, it does allow more
time in the air, which is incredibly precious, and Shen in particular
seems to be very good at using it to her advantage (if indeed she does
have any more time in the air, which some dispute). She usually checks out
very well on triples, and has enough time to at least attempt a quad.
Having more time actually enhances the likelihood of a good landing.

As for the "sloppiness", I think that is really confined to the male
skater (e.g. Zhao). From my own analysis of the technique (again, it's my
opinion; I invite you to look at it yourself), I would say that he is less
likely to injure himself using this method during the actual throw - given
the same jump height - as it requires less stress on him, at least for the
upper body (it would, however, stress his legs more: TANSTAAFL). He could
however, switch to the classical technique (a sort of gunslinger method,
shooting from the hip :-), but I would guess the throws would not be as
high (of course, I could be wrong). All that is more dangerous for him
with his existing method is to be able to land, facing forward, without
doing a face plant. Fortunately, his forward motion is much reduced by the
horizontal reaction to the throw itself. I have not seen him fall yet on a
throw.

So, I'm not sure why you say that it can't be safe. I think all throws are
inherently dangerous (not as dangerous as, say, lifts), but I don't see a
big safety difference between this and the more accepted method. As for
sloppiness, although it is in the eye of the beholder, I would admit it
looks sort of funky. Hence my original suggestion that they work on doing
something with the man so that they get the benefits of the method (if
indeed they exist, which some dispute), while having a more pleasing look.

--
Chris M. Hall, Assistant Research Scientist
Dept. of Geological Sciences, University of Michigan

Yes, I really am a scientist.

Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws Althealeo 11/5/02 5:02 PM
>So, I'm not sure why you say that it can't be safe. I think all throws are
inherently dangerous (not as dangerous as, say, lifts), but I don't see a big
safety difference between this and the more accepted method.>

Well, I freely admit that I'm pretty clueless about this, as I've personally
never attempted to throw someone while skating.  I'm assuming, I guess, that to
sort of lunge gives less control....and more possibility for falls, etc.  But
I'm not basing that on anything except for a gut reaction.

-- Kate

Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws michael farris 11/5/02 10:48 PM

Bbarlou wrote:

> Trudi thinking she knows everything about everything

but she _does_!!!! ..... so there!!! nya nya nya nya nyah!

-michael farris (who's not above stooping to the level on occasion)


Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws Trudi Marrapodi 11/6/02 3:33 AM
In article <tSRx9.449$ho1....@news.itd.umich.edu>, cmh...@umich.edu wrote:

> In <20021105082624.07723.00002238@mb-mn.aol.com>, on 11/05/02
>    at 01:26 PM, bba...@aol.com (Bbarlou) said:
>
> >"I swear.  You purport to reiterate my "point", but you still don't get
> >what I actually wrote.  How do you manage to be a research scientist when
> >you disregard essential facts?  Besides, it is obvious you aren't that
> >familiar with the principles of kinesiology...or else you are
> >deliberately ignoring them in your effort to win a pissing contest."
> >Don't you realize that "Trudi" knows everything about everything?  How
> >dare you question Mother Superior???????
>
> I think you fired at the wrong person. It wasn't Trudi that said that, it
> was Kaiju. Now take several deep breaths and relax.

Wow, this is entertaining. Bbarlou is such a troll, she's attempting to
(dis)credit me with angry words from someone else's post! :-)


--
Trudi

"On the morning of June 6, 1944,
A lot of German's were dropping to the floor."
--couplet from a D-Day poem written by a high school student

Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws Bbarlou 11/6/02 4:19 AM
>"I swear.  You purport to reiterate my "point", but you still don't get
> >what I actually wrote.  How do you manage to be a research scientist when
> >you disregard essential facts?  Besides, it is obvious you aren't that
> >familiar with the principles of kinesiology...or else you are
> >deliberately ignoring them in your effort to win a pissing contest."
> >Don't you realize that "Trudi" knows everything about everything?  How
> >dare you question Mother Superior???????
The above quote was set up as if it were an answer to Trudi-- (can't find
original post any more)--so that is why I answered it that way.  This may have
been an answer to somebody else but was set up in a way that it appeared to be
a response to Trudi.  However, don't you notice that Trudi puts her .02 cents
into just about every post?  And God forbid you don't agree with her, you are a
terrible troll.  On this board, all opinions should be respected whether they
agree with Trudi's or not!
Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws Kaiju 11/6/02 7:19 PM
Bbarlou wrote:
>
> >"I swear.  You purport to reiterate my "point", but you still don't get
> > >what I actually wrote.  How do you manage to be a research scientist when
> > >you disregard essential facts?  Besides, it is obvious you aren't that
> > >familiar with the principles of kinesiology...or else you are
> > >deliberately ignoring them in your effort to win a pissing contest."
> > >Don't you realize that "Trudi" knows everything about everything?  How
> > >dare you question Mother Superior???????
> The above quote was set up as if it were an answer to Trudi-- (can't find
> original post any more)--so that is why I answered it that way.  This may have
> been an answer to somebody else but was set up in a way that it appeared to be
> a response to Trudi.

You blew it.  Give it up already.  You fool nobody.


Kaiju <this one sees the name "Trudi" and automatically kicks into
obsessive troll mode...>

--

     No more fiendish punishment could be devised,
     were such a thing physically possible,
     than that one should be turned loose in society
     and remain absolutely unnoticed.

     -- William James

Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws janet swan hill 11/6/02 8:30 PM
>Bbarlou wrote:

something about Trudi .... again.   It's long since become a tiresome
obsession.
   
janet

Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws janet swan hill 11/6/02 8:35 PM
>
>I know that we've sort of focused on whether it's easier for a couple to
>achieve height if the man sort of jumps off the ice....(and I personally have
>long since gotten lost in that discussion!)...but is that really the main
>issue?

No it isn't.   What is the "main issue" is completion of the element according
to its definition, with quality in all aspects.    ...... quality includes
height and distance, and form.   And it includes form of BOTH partners.  
Skating has defined certain things as preferable.   Usually, the thing that is
preferable is also harder.    So, you get credit for the move being correct,
beautiful, and hard.

When the man leaves the ice, and lunges forward, and doesn't extend the free
leg ..... well, he is not doing the move correctly, nor is he displaying good
form.   He has sacrificed those "brownie points" in favor of getting "brownie
points" for the height of the throw.    

It's all a matter of relative worth and weights.

janet

Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws Britt Graves 11/6/02 9:59 PM

"janet swan hill" <lb...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021106233005.24023.00003614@mb-mm.aol.com...

Why haven't people put him on killfile yet?  And if no killfile is
available, why isn't he completely ignored?  I could understand it if he
actually had something vital to contribute, but he *never* does.  Just
ignore the little twit already.

Britt


Pitched broads or gorilla/flea or small throws cmh...@umich.edu 11/7/02 7:22 AM
In <20021106233513.24023.00003615@mb-mm.aol.com>, on 11/07/02

>janet

Yes, it's a trade off. Did you notice that the Chinese men at SA were
deliberately extending their leg after the throw, possibly to defuse at
least some of the criticism?

As the poor befuddled person who started this thread (and I have the
bruises to prove it :-) I really was addressing the issue of the
efficiency of this technique just as a throw, and whether it might become
a new pathway, or accepted paradigm. So it really was my "main issue". As
for whether it is "correct" or not, that is really up to judges like
yourself. So far, I have not seen any evidence that S&Z have been
penalized much for their throw technique. If they or another Chinese pair
can push things so that quad throws become routine, the judges will either
have slam this method, or there could be a temptation to emulate it. I
just became fascinated by the mechanics of it, as it seems to fly in the
face of convention wisdom. I think I understand why they quite
deliberately use this method. Only time, and the judges, will tell if it
becomes accepted.

--
Chris M. Hall, Assistant Research Scientist
Dept. of Geological Sciences, University of Michigan

Quando omni flunkus moritati

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