Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported

Showing 1-271 of 271 messages
Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported pgaron 7/18/03 8:53 AM
According to a message posted to Dave Lampson's music list:

"Rosalyn Tureck died at approximately 10:40 PM on July 17, 2003, at
her home in Riverdale, Bronx, New York, at the age of 88."

pgaron

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/18/03 10:05 AM
In article <613e3493.03071...@posting.google.com>, pga...@my-deja.com
says...

...and the average worldwide tempo of Bach keyboard performances just increased
by at least 10%.

Dave Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Samir Golescu 7/18/03 10:10 AM

On 18 Jul 2003, David Hurwitz wrote:

> >"Rosalyn Tureck died at approximately 10:40 PM on July 17, 2003, at
> >her home in Riverdale, Bronx, New York, at the age of 88."
>
> ...and the average worldwide tempo of Bach keyboard performances just
> increased by at least 10%.

INEXCUSABLY cynical!!

regards,
SG
(but shamefully funny. . .)

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Terrymelin 7/18/03 11:54 AM
>>"Rosalyn Tureck died at approximately 10:40 PM on July 17, 2003, at
>>her home in Riverdale, Bronx, New York, at the age of 88."
>>
>>pgaron

>
>...and the average worldwide tempo of Bach keyboard performances just
>increased
>by at least 10%.
>
>Dave Hurwitz
>

That kind of comment is beneath contempt as the first and only reaction to the
death of an artist.

Terry Ellsworth

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Simon Roberts 7/18/03 12:20 PM
In article <Pine.GSO.4.31.0307181209440.1448-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>, Samir
says...

>
>
>On 18 Jul 2003, David Hurwitz wrote:
>
>> >"Rosalyn Tureck died at approximately 10:40 PM on July 17, 2003, at
>> >her home in Riverdale, Bronx, New York, at the age of 88."
>>
>> ...and the average worldwide tempo of Bach keyboard performances just
>> increased by at least 10%.
>
>INEXCUSABLY cynical!!
>
>regards,
>SG
>(but shamefully funny. . .)

Or just plain funny.  Unfortunately I had a mouthful of liquid when I read it.

Simon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged) 7/18/03 12:50 PM
Simon Roberts <sd...@comcast.net> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:bf...@drn.newsguy.com:

Billboard's Website will doubtless ignore her -- whereas all of the other
musicians, in fields other than classical, will have their deaths reported
at least once each.  (The big rock/pop/R&B stars generally get a couple of
follow-up articles on how their deaths affect their friends, and how many
people showed up at the funeral, and generally that they're still dead,
like Francisco Franco.)

--
Matthew B. Tepper:  WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Mark Coy tossed off eBay?  http://makeashorterlink.com/?M2B734C02
RMCR's most pointless, dumb and laughable chowderhead:  Mark Coy.

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Clovis Lark 7/18/03 12:53 PM
Terrymelin <terry...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>"Rosalyn Tureck died at approximately 10:40 PM on July 17, 2003, at
>>>her home in Riverdale, Bronx, New York, at the age of 88."
>>>
>>>pgaron

>>
>>...and the average worldwide tempo of Bach keyboard performances just
>>increased
>>by at least 10%.
>>
>>Dave Hurwitz
>>

> That kind of comment is beneath contempt as the first and only reaction to the
> death of an artist.

Come on Terry, it was funny.  And the slight can't possibly hurt her.  It
would have been different had he said this to her face when she was alive.

> Terry Ellsworth

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Matthew Silverstein 7/18/03 1:36 PM
TE wrote:

> That kind of comment is beneath contempt as the first and only reaction to
the
> death of an artist.

Terry, meet Sense of Humor. Sense of Humor, Terry . . .

Matty


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Yes 7/18/03 1:39 PM
Terrymelin <terry...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030718145407.01007.00000083@mb-m22.aol.com...

> >>"Rosalyn Tureck died at approximately 10:40 PM on July 17, 2003, at
> >>her home in Riverdale, Bronx, New York, at the age of 88."
> >>
> >>pgaron
> >
> >...and the average worldwide tempo of Bach keyboard performances just
> >increased
> >by at least 10%.
> >
> >Dave Hurwitz
> >
>
> That kind of comment is beneath contempt

I think you meant to type "I find that kind of comment beneath contempt...". So far, no-one agrees
with you.


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Bob Lombard 7/18/03 2:20 PM

Dunno about 'beneath contempt'.  Has about the same quality of 'humor'
as seeing an elderly shopper stumble and dump a load of groceries in
the parking lot. That's funny ain't it?

bl

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/18/03 2:30 PM
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 21:40:09 +0100, "Yes" <n...@may.be> wrote:

>Terrymelin <terry...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:20030718145407.01007.00000083@mb-m22.aol.com...
>> >>"Rosalyn Tureck died at approximately 10:40 PM on July 17, 2003, at
>> >>her home in Riverdale, Bronx, New York, at the age of 88."
>> >>
>> >>pgaron
>> >
>> >...and the average worldwide tempo of Bach keyboard performances just
>> >increased
>> >by at least 10%.
>> >
>> >Dave Hurwitz
>> >
>>
>> That kind of comment is beneath contempt
>
>I think you meant to type "I find that kind of comment beneath contempt...". So far, no-one agrees
>with you.
>

I knew Rosalyn Tureck very well and count her among the most
stimulating musicians I have ever met. Her energy, drive,
intelligence, pianistic ability (a Horowitz pupil once declared to me
that she had the most complete keyboard technique of any contemporary
pianist), and charm, yes, charm, remain indelibly etched on my memory.
I personally caused the DG Goldbergs to happen in the face of
incredible opposition from within that company and it stands as a
landmark, just like all her recordings of this music. An incredible
achievement for a woman of her, or any age. You don't know this, but
the DG producer never had to make a single edit in the whole
recording. Each variation is a complete "take".

I was also responsible for bringing the tapes of her Decca WTC to
Hannover to have them remastered by the DG engineers.

Her 1956 Partitas included in the GPE are, for me,  extraordinary:
personal communications of a kind rarely encountered.

So, when confronted with Mr. Hurwitz's little witticism I remain not
only unamused, but unsurprised also. One only has to examine the
source of the remark.

Today will be a very sad day for this listener, and many others, I
imagine.

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Samir Golescu 7/18/03 2:32 PM

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Bob Lombard wrote:

> Dunno about 'beneath contempt'.  Has about the same quality of 'humor'
> as seeing an elderly shopper stumble and dump a load of groceries in
> the parking lot. That's funny ain't it?

It was "risque" humor, but not that bad, com'on. . .  Yours reminds me
of that Arli$$ episode in which the guy hits lightly with his car an old
lady, actually her shopping cart, drives her home remorsefully, she shows
him some old autographed sport photos, he recognizes them as being
collector items worth $50,000, then tries to buy them for $10,000. . . in
the end he buys them (obviously trying to defraud the old lady), finds out
that the precious photos were forgeries worth nothing, while the old lady
already disappeared. Now I forgot where we started and why I tell you
that. . . age kicks in here too. . . do watch my cart, will you, dear?

regards,
SG

P.S. Perhaps Ms. Tureck's admirers could offer some -- very much unlike
this -- relevant tribute?

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported ulvi 7/18/03 2:44 PM
deac...@yahoo.com wrote in
news:o8oghvsrmudcfohf25lhruo0pf2h1btsu0@4ax.com:

Agreed with most of the above. I should re-listen to her Sarabande from
the French Overture in memoriam (in the other GPOC volume).

Ulvi

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported augusthe...@msn.com 7/18/03 3:05 PM
terry...@aol.com (Terrymelin) wrote in message news:<20030718145407.01007.00000083@mb-m22.aol.com>...

> >>"Rosalyn Tureck died at approximately 10:40 PM on July 17, 2003, at
> >>her home in Riverdale, Bronx, New York, at the age of 88."
> >>
> >>pgaron
> >
> >...and the average worldwide tempo of Bach keyboard performances just
> >increased
> >by at least 10%.
> >
> >Dave Hurwitz
> >
>
> That kind of comment is beneath contempt as the first and only reaction to the
> death of an artist.
>
Quite agreed. Rosalyn Tureck was a truly first class musician of high
intelligence, scholarship and technique. Her WTC I & II recordings are
truly desert island material, IMO. I've said it before and I'll say it
again, that George Szell's famous remark about Glenn Gould - "That
nut's a genius" - was probably right on both counts, but with Tureck,
you got the genius without (at least most of) the nuttiness.
Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/18/03 3:29 PM
On 18 Jul 2003 15:05:05 -0700, augusthe...@msn.com (August
Helmbright) wrote:


Samir asks for a relevant tribute from her "admirers".

The best tribute, as another poster has suggested, is to listen to her
play Bach.

Tom Deacon

The obit in Andante.com follows.

P.S> A recording exists, I believe, of that Brahms 2.

Rosalyn Tureck, a leading performer of Bach on the piano, harpsichord
and clavichord, has died, WQXR radio in New York City reports. She was
88.

According to writer Teri Noel Towe, a friend, Tureck died on Thursday
evening in the Riverdale section of the Bronx, New York.

Tureck was born in Chicago, where she made her solo recital debut at
age 9. One of her piano teachers was Sophia Brilliant-Liven, a student
of Anton Rubenstein, to whom Tureck traced her technique. She attended
the Juilliard School, where she studied with Olga Samaroff; during her
tenure there she made her Carnegie Hall debut performing on the
theremin, the electronic instrument invented by Leon Theremin, with
whom she had studied.

In 1936, at age 22, she made her New York orchestral debut, performing
Brahms' Piano Concerto No. 2 with Eugene Ormandy and the Philadelphia
Orchestra. A year later, she began an annual series of all-Bach
recitals at New York's Town Hall; she would eventually add similar
series in London, Copenhagen, Montreal and other cities. She made the
first of her many European tours in 1947 and would later travel to
South America, South Africa, Israel and Asia. She began to conduct in
1956, appearing with the Philharmonia Orchestra of London, the New
York Philharmonic and the National Symphony Orchestra, as well as her
own Tureck Bach Players and other groups.

Tureck was the author of many articles and several books, including
the three-volume An Introduction to the Performance of Bach. She
founded the International Bach Institute in 1966 and went on to create
the Tureck Bach Institute and its successor, the Tureck Bach Research
Foundation.

Although she was best known as a Bach specialist, Tureck was also a
passionate advocate of contemporary music, founding Composers of Today
and the Society of Contemporary Music. She gave the world premieres of
William Schumann's Piano Concerto and David Diamond's Piano Sonata No.
1, which had been written with her in mind. In 1952, she presented the
first American performance for tape and electronic music; later, she
would perform Bach on the Moog synthesizer.

Tureck taught at the Philadelphia Conservatory of Music, Juilliard and
the University of California at San Diego.


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Jesica 7/18/03 4:04 PM
pga...@my-deja.com (Phil Garon) wrote in message news:<613e3493.0307180753.51fed981@posting.google.com>...

> According to a message posted to Dave Lampson's music list:
>
> "Rosalyn Tureck died at approximately 10:40 PM on July 17, 2003, at
> her home in Riverdale, Bronx, New York, at the age of 88."
>
For more details on the life and work of Rosalyn Tureck see the web
site of the Tureck Bach Research Foundation:

http://www.connectedglobe.com/tbrf/

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Simon Roberts 7/18/03 5:05 PM
In article <mooghv0ha8n4tgs0d7pqjr15kmp38emmnd@4ax.com>, Bob says...

>
>On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 21:40:09 +0100, "Yes" <n...@may.be> wrote:
>
>>Terrymelin <terry...@aol.com> wrote in message
>>news:20030718145407.01007.00000083@mb-m22.aol.com...
>>> >>"Rosalyn Tureck died at approximately 10:40 PM on July 17, 2003, at
>>> >>her home in Riverdale, Bronx, New York, at the age of 88."
>>> >>
>>> >>pgaron
>>> >
>>> >...and the average worldwide tempo of Bach keyboard performances just
>>> >increased
>>> >by at least 10%.
>>> >
>>> >Dave Hurwitz
>>> >
>>>
>>> That kind of comment is beneath contempt
>>
>>I think you meant to type "I find that kind of comment beneath contempt...". So
>>far, no-one agrees
>>with you.
>>
>Dunno about 'beneath contempt'.  Has about the same quality of 'humor'
>as seeing an elderly shopper stumble and dump a load of groceries in
>the parking lot. That's funny ain't it?

No.  But how is that equivalent?  

Simon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/18/03 5:20 PM
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 21:43:56 -0000, ulvi <ul...@pacificnet.net> wrote:

>deac...@yahoo.com wrote in
>news:o8oghvsrmudcfohf25lhruo0pf2h1btsu0@4ax.com:
>
>> On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 21:40:09 +0100, "Yes" <n...@may.be> wrote:
>>
>>>Terrymelin <terry...@aol.com> wrote in message
>>>news:20030718145407.01007.00000083@mb-m22.aol.com...
>>>> >>"Rosalyn Tureck died at approximately 10:40 PM on July 17, 2003,
>>>> >>at her home in Riverdale, Bronx, New York, at the age of 88."
>>>> >>
>>>> >>pgaron
>>>> >
>>>> >...and the average worldwide tempo of Bach keyboard performances
>>>> >just increased
>>>> >by at least 10%.
>>>> >
>>>> >Dave Hurwitz
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> That kind of comment is beneath contempt
>>>
>>>I think you meant to type "I find that kind of comment beneath
>>>contempt...". So far, no-one agrees with you.
>>>
>>
>> I knew Rosalyn Tureck very well and count her among the most
>> stimulating musicians I have ever met. Her energy, drive,
>> intelligence, pianistic ability (a Horowitz pupil once declared to me
>> that she had the most complete keyboard technique of any contemporary
>> pianist), and charm, yes, charm, remain indelibly etched on my memory.
>> I personally caused the DG Goldbergs to happen in the face of
>> incredible opposition from within that company and it stands as a
>> landmark, just like all her recordings of this music. An incredible
>> achievement for a woman of her, or any age. You don't know this, but
>> the DG producer never had to make a single edit in the whole
>> recording. Each variation is a complete "take".
>>
>> I was also responsible for bringing the tapes of her Decca WTC to
>> Hannover to have them remastered by the DG engineers.
>>
>> Her 1956 Partitas included in the GPE are, for me,  extraordinary:
>> personal communications of a kind rarely encountered.
>
>Agreed with most of the above. I should re-listen to her Sarabande from
>the French Overture in memoriam (in the other GPOC volume).
>
>Ulvi

I just did! And couldn't take the CD off. What about the slow movement
of the Italian Concerto? And then the Four Duets?

What a pianist!

No wonder pianists would say: "Bitch! How does she do that?"

Tom Deacon


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/18/03 5:36 PM
>>
>Dunno about 'beneath contempt'.  Has about the same quality of 'humor'
>as seeing an elderly shopper stumble and dump a load of groceries in
>the parking lot. That's funny ain't it?
>
>bl
>

It might be if you were the shopper...

Dave Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/18/03 5:50 PM
>
>Terry, meet Sense of Humor. Sense of Humor, Terry . . .
>
>Matty
>

See what happens now, Matty: The sanctimonious gather, they circle the wagons
around their dead icon, they hurl insults and puff themselves up with
self-righteous indignation. Sit back and enjoy the show!

Dave Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/18/03 5:50 PM
>
>No wonder pianists would say: "Bitch! How does she do that?"
>
>Tom Deacon
>

No, that's what they say about you, Tom.

Dave Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/18/03 6:01 PM
On 18 Jul 2003 17:31:31 -0700, David Hurwitz
<David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:

Well, you might well. Lord knows you hardly know how to do anything
worthwhile..

I liked that previous post. A 4th rate reviewer for a 2 bit internet
site.

Hmmmmmmm! Just what I was thinking myself. But I would never have
wanted to confront you with what everyone is thinking.

Seems you need to take some lessons from somebody - anybody  would do,
actually.

And then summon up a modicum of respect for Madame Tureck. Hard for
your type, I would guess, however. The one liners are so much easier
and play well to the gallery. WHAT a gallery!

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Phil Caron 7/18/03 6:15 PM
"Phil Garon" <pga...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:613e3493.0307180753.51fed981@posting.google.com...

> According to a message posted to Dave Lampson's music list:
>
> "Rosalyn Tureck died at approximately 10:40 PM on July 17, 2003, at
> her home in Riverdale, Bronx, New York, at the age of 88."
>
That's sad news.  I first heard of her from buying by chance one of the
VAI's, which had the Italian Concerto.  That lead to other purchases.  She
was distinctive and, to my ears, profound.  I especially like the DG WTC,
the Bach Partitas on Philips (which I'm listening to now,) and some of the
other VAI recordings.  Perhaps I tend to prefer some other pianists'
versions of some of those works, but Tureck at her best was deeply absorbing
and rewarding - an exalted musician.

Of special interest is the "Young Firebrand" album from VAI, which shows an
unexpectedly exciting Tureck playing Liszt, Debussy, Brahms and other
repertoire not usually associated with her.

- Phil Caron

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Phil Caron 7/18/03 6:18 PM

"Simon Roberts" <sd...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:bfa0m502btf@drn.newsguy.com...

> In article <mooghv0ha8n4tgs0d7pqjr15kmp38emmnd@4ax.com>, Bob says...
> >
> >On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 21:40:09 +0100, "Yes" <n...@may.be> wrote:
> >
> >>Terrymelin <terry...@aol.com> wrote in message
> >>news:20030718145407.01007.00000083@mb-m22.aol.com...
> >>> >>"Rosalyn Tureck died at approximately 10:40 PM on July 17, 2003, at
> >>> >>her home in Riverdale, Bronx, New York, at the age of 88."
> >>> >>
> >>> >>pgaron
> >>> >
> >>> >...and the average worldwide tempo of Bach keyboard performances just
> >>> >increased
> >>> >by at least 10%.
> >>> >
> >>> >Dave Hurwitz
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>> That kind of comment is beneath contempt
> >>
> >>I think you meant to type "I find that kind of comment beneath
contempt...". So
> >>far, no-one agrees
> >>with you.
> >>
> >Dunno about 'beneath contempt'.  Has about the same quality of 'humor'
> >as seeing an elderly shopper stumble and dump a load of groceries in
> >the parking lot. That's funny ain't it?
>
> No.  But how is that equivalent?
>
He didn't say it was equivalent.  He drew a parallel between two examples of
making a joke about someone's misfortune.

- Phil Caron

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Bob Lombard 7/18/03 6:29 PM
On 18 Jul 2003 16:43:01 -0700, Simon Roberts <sd...@comcast.net> wrote:

>In article <mooghv0ha8n4tgs0d7pqjr15kmp38emmnd@4ax.com>, Bob says...
>>

>>Dunno about 'beneath contempt'.  Has about the same quality of 'humor'


>>as seeing an elderly shopper stumble and dump a load of groceries in
>>the parking lot. That's funny ain't it?
>
>No.  But how is that equivalent?  
>
>Simon

The  discomfort caused by the insensitivity is of the same order. The
elderly shopper, it may be reasonably assumed, wishes to be considered
capable of self-sufficiency - not a laughingstock. The snipe at
Tureck, if known to them, is a similar laughingstock thing taken by
those close to her. Said with a smile and salute of the glass at an
Irish wake, no problem.

There is also the possibility that, as a member of the elderly class,
I am unduly sensitive to the feelings of its members.

bl

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Dan Koren 7/18/03 6:37 PM
"Samir Golescu" <gol...@uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.31.0307181209440.1448-100000@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu...
>
> On 18 Jul 2003, David Hurwitz wrote:
>
> > >"Rosalyn Tureck died at approximately 10:40 PM on
> > > July 17, 2003, at her home in Riverdale, Bronx,
> > > New York, at the age of 88."
> >
> > ...and the average worldwide tempo of Bach keyboard
> > performances just
> > increased by at least 10%.
>
> INEXCUSABLY cynical!!
>


Inexcusable because you now have to
take her seriously? Just curious...


dk


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Dan Koren 7/18/03 6:43 PM
<deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:oq4hhvkbtciojcerbne8kn8v5bj6cbra0t@4ax.com...
>
> And then summon up a modicum of respect for Madame Tureck.
>

The only respect artists deserve is that earned through the
memories and impressions they leave on their audiences. Your
experiences with Mme Tureck's performances may have been
happier than those of others -- and that's perfectly OK.

However the people who did not enjoy Mme Tureck's playing
and/or did not agree with her artistic philosophy have as
much of a right to express their opinions as have those
who liked her.

No more and no less.

dk


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Paul Penna 7/18/03 6:45 PM
In article <8n7hhv8jomcqrihu1p1pepplqq18jld4us@4ax.com>, Bob Lombard
<hill...@vermontel.net> wrote:

> There is also the possibility that, as a member of the elderly class,
> I am unduly sensitive to the feelings of its members.

As one on an approach vector to that status, I am thankful for a
lifetime of experience that has taught me that being "unduly sensitive"
is not a life-enhancing quality; quite the contrary.

--
Paul Penna

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Dave Hurwitz 7/18/03 6:50 PM
>>
>He didn't say it was equivalent.  He drew a parallel between two examples of
>making a joke about someone's misfortune.
>
>- Phil Caron
>

What misfortune was that?

Dave Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Phil Caron 7/18/03 7:01 PM

"Dave Hurwitz" <Dave_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:68577713.00017656.027@drn.newsguy.com...On the one hand, someone dying (Tureck); on the other, someone dropping
groceries (hypothetical example).  Your newsreader must be dropping posts.

- Phil

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/18/03 7:01 PM
On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 01:43:28 GMT, "Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

Absolutely.

I quite agree.

However, that said, perhaps the time to convey such thoughts is not on
the day her death is announced.

Or is ot "open season" all the time here in never-never-land?

When Sharon dies of a heart attack, that is the moment to jump on the
poor bastard and kick his flaccid body. Right? Wrong! The time to kick
him is when he can stand up and defend himself.

And RT would have eaten most of her critics before breakfast!

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Bob Lombard 7/18/03 7:22 PM
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 21:18:55 -0400, "Phil Caron"
<vlad...@vermontel.net> wrote:


>> >Dunno about 'beneath contempt'.  Has about the same quality of 'humor'
>> >as seeing an elderly shopper stumble and dump a load of groceries in
>> >the parking lot. That's funny ain't it?
>>
>> No.  But how is that equivalent?


>>
>He didn't say it was equivalent.  He drew a parallel between two examples of
>making a joke about someone's misfortune.
>
I may have drawn it, but that wasn't my intention. "Making a joke
about someone's misfortune" is a standard facet of that essentially
indefinable thing called sense-of-humor. I do hold the notion that
humor is 'designed' (by God, the course of evolution, whatever) for
the easing of pain rather than for intensifying it.

Maybe I should admit here that I have never enjoyed Tureck's playing
of Bach much. I think that she took his keyboard music too seriously.

bl

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/18/03 7:50 PM
>>
>> What misfortune was that?
>>
>On the one hand, someone dying (Tureck); on the other, someone dropping
>groceries (hypothetical example).  Your newsreader must be dropping posts.
>
>- Phil
>
How is dying a misfortune?

Dave

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Samir Golescu 7/18/03 7:55 PM

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003, Dan Koren wrote:

> Inexcusable because you now have to
> take her seriously? Just curious...

Nope. I had no idea Ms. Tureck was still alive and I still didn't ever
understand the fuss around her Bach, which strikes me as mechanical. I
would have preferred saying these and more on another occasion, though.
There are obviously people here who were quite fond of her.

As regards the by now famous joke, I thought it was a very funny -- and
musically suggestive -- joke used perhaps at the wrong moment. On the
other hand, it was the only moment that the joke as it was could be made
at all! So I don't know. People's balance between tolerance for humor and
capacity of being outraged is never quantifiable. In defense, I have to
say four words: remember Monthy Python!

Would they have done something similar? Methinks yes.

regards,
SG

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Dan Koren 7/18/03 9:07 PM
<deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:df8hhv4qqe40sjl5i6jrt4nu2adv6tvr4g@4ax.com...

> On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 01:43:28 GMT, "Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> ><deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:oq4hhvkbtciojcerbne8kn8v5bj6cbra0t@4ax.com...
> >>
> >> And then summon up a modicum of respect for Madame Tureck.
> >>
> >
> >The only respect artists deserve is that earned through the
> >memories and impressions they leave on their audiences. Your
> >experiences with Mme Tureck's performances may have been
> >happier than those of others -- and that's perfectly OK.
> >
> >However the people who did not enjoy Mme Tureck's playing
> >and/or did not agree with her artistic philosophy have as
> >much of a right to express their opinions as have those
> >who liked her.
> >
> >No more and no less.
> >
> >
> >
> >dk
> >
> Absolutely.
>
> I quite agree.


Thanks. The first time you and I have agreed on anything.


> However, that said, perhaps the time to convey such
> thoughts is not on the day her death is announced.


You may have noticed that I did not say anything else.

The passing away of an artist -- no matter how insig-
nificant -- is always a sad event.


> Or is it "open season" all the time here in never-
> never-land?


No more and no less than in Rideau Corridor land.


> When Sharon dies of a heart attack, that is the moment
> to jump on the poor bastard and kick his flaccid body.
> Right? Wrong! The time to kick him is when he can stand
> up and defend himself.


And how is that related to Mme Tureck's final visit to
JSB?


> And RT would have eaten most of her critics before
> breakfast!


Well, that probably explains the feeling of indigestion
in her performances.

dk


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Dan Koren 7/18/03 9:20 PM
"David Hurwitz" <David_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:68582019.00002610.060@drn.newsguy.com...

> >>
> >> What misfortune was that?
> >>
> > On the one hand, someone dying (Tureck); on the other,
> > someone dropping groceries (hypothetical example).
> > Your newsreader must be dropping posts.
> >
>
> How is dying a misfortune?
>


It depends on one's religion.


dk


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Thomas Wood 7/19/03 12:12 AM

Phil Garon <pga...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:613e3493.0307180753.51fed981@posting.google.com...
> According to a message posted to Dave Lampson's music list:

>
> "Rosalyn Tureck died at approximately 10:40 PM on July 17, 2003, at
> her home in Riverdale, Bronx, New York, at the age of 88."

This is sad fom a human point of view. However, from an artistic point point
of view, she was the nakedess of unclothed Empresses. Now, in Elysium, Bach
can whack her leaden knuckles.

Tom Wood


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/19/03 5:35 AM
In article <3f18c710$1...@news.meer.net>, "Dan says...

That, and the circumstances. Dying itself is not a misfortune; it's perfectly
normal. Had she suffered somehow, or had her life been cut short, that might
have been sad, but dying at 88 after a fulfilling career is hardly a misfortune.
Actually, from an artistic point of view, death is something to be welcomed. It
makes room for new talent, new ideas, and new perspectives on old ideas. No mere
performer is so important that art itself suffers from their passing
(particularly when their career has been well documented in recordings), and the
pious sentiments of the self righteous and sanctimonious always make amusing
reading considering the viciousness with which the same people feel free to
treat these same artists when they are alive. It's OK to plaster them when they
are living, as long as we spare a moment for a twinge of sentiment when they
croak. It's pure hypocrisy, a laughable self-indulgence, and nothing more.

Dave Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported JohnGavin 7/19/03 6:29 AM
"Yes" <n...@may.be> wrote in message news:<bf9ltq$e63$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>...
> Terrymelin <terry...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20030718145407.01007.00000083@mb-m22.aol.com...

> > >>"Rosalyn Tureck died at approximately 10:40 PM on July 17, 2003, at
> > >>her home in Riverdale, Bronx, New York, at the age of 88."
> > >>
> > >>pgaron

> > >
> > >...and the average worldwide tempo of Bach keyboard performances just
> > >increased
> > >by at least 10%.
> > >
> > >Dave Hurwitz
> > >
> >
> > That kind of comment is beneath contempt
>
> I think you meant to type "I find that kind of comment beneath contempt...". So far, no-one agrees
> with you.

I remember attending a series of lectures she gave at NYC's Lincoln
Center Library during my high school years. I've got to admit that I
always found something personally unsettling about Ms. Tureck.  On the
plus side I would say she had an iron will, and was an extremely hard
worker - but I always found her very full of herself in a way that
bordered on disturbing.  Her oft-repeated story about Bach coming to
her in a dream and revealing the true way to interpret his works,
combined with the label "High-priestess of Bach" all had a ring of BS
to me.  Her frequent appearances on her friend William Buckley's
program, "Firing Line" only served to re-enforce the image of a
peculiarly rigid woman.

By the way, that DG Goldberg Variations are border-line catatonic -
perhaps that explains why it went out-of-print rather quickly.  Sorry
to give so critical a eulogy, but in her case I can't help myself.

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/19/03 7:12 AM


I have no idea where you live, John, but the Tureck GVs are still in
print.

Never caught her on Buckley's programme. He fairly worshipped her, of
course. One of his only unmitigated feelings.

She could come across as "rigid", specially in public. In private you
had a very different sense of the woman, warm, friendly, interested
(in everything, not just music), as well as supremely intelligent. I
once did a series of interviews with her at the keyboard, with her
demonstrating her ideas, which has, alas, never been aired. Probably
still in some archives. What a pity!

But I suggest, John, that you listen to her B flat Partita from the
GPE and then tell me she sounds "rigid".

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/19/03 7:15 AM
On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 07:12:17 GMT, "Thomas Wood"
<woo...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>
>Phil Garon <pga...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
>news:613e3493.0307180753.51fed981@posting.google.com...
>> According to a message posted to Dave Lampson's music list:
>>
>> "Rosalyn Tureck died at approximately 10:40 PM on July 17, 2003, at
>> her home in Riverdale, Bronx, New York, at the age of 88."
>
>This is sad fom a human point of view. However, from an artistic point point
>of view, she was the nakedess of unclothed Empresses. Now, in Elysium, Bach
>can whack her leaden knuckles.
>
>Tom Wood
>
Two things:

First: You boviously believe in an afterlife. Fool!

Second: you believe in God! Fool!

Third: You believe that Bach would strike someone. Fool again!

You're batting 1000 so far, Tom. Why not go for the jackpot?

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Simon Roberts 7/19/03 7:42 AM

"Phil Caron" <vlad...@vermontel.net> wrote in message
news:1058578155.324133@websense.vermontel.net...
>
> "Simon Roberts" <sd...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:bfa0m502btf@drn.newsguy.com...
> > In article <mooghv0ha8n4tgs0d7pqjr15kmp38emmnd@4ax.com>, Bob says...

> > >
> > >>
> > >Dunno about 'beneath contempt'.  Has about the same quality of
'humor'
> > >as seeing an elderly shopper stumble and dump a load of groceries
in
> > >the parking lot. That's funny ain't it?
> >
> > No.  But how is that equivalent?
> >
> He didn't say it was equivalent.  He drew a parallel between two
examples of
> making a joke about someone's misfortune.

Sigh. OK, so what's the parallel?  He was making fun of her death?
Making a joke out of her dying?  Hardly.  He made a comment on what she
did while she was alive.  True, her abysmal Bach recordings were a
misfortune, but not hers and anyway I somehow don't think that's what
you have in mind....

Simon


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Terrymelin 7/19/03 7:58 AM
>Come on Terry, it was funny.  And the slight can't possibly hurt her.  It
>would have been different had he said this to her face when she was alive.

No, at least that would have been honest but to say it when the person just
died is rather cruel.

And, yes, it was funny. But a lot of really mean things are.

Terry Ellsworth

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Terrymelin 7/19/03 7:59 AM
>Terry, meet Sense of Humor. Sense of Humor, Terry . . .
>
>Matty

Yes, I wonder if you would feel the same way if she had been your mother or
your sister?

Terry Ellsworth

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Terrymelin 7/19/03 7:59 AM
>See what happens now, Matty: The sanctimonious gather, they circle the wagons
>around their dead icon, they hurl insults and puff themselves up with
>self-righteous indignation. Sit back and enjoy the show!
>
>Dave Hurwitz

I had no idea anyone other than Mr. Gable could be quite this full of
themselves!

Terry Ellsworth

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Terrymelin 7/19/03 8:00 AM
>Has about the same quality of 'humor'
>as seeing an elderly shopper stumble and dump a load of groceries in
>the parking lot. That's funny ain't it?
>
>bl
>

Exactly!

Terry Ellsworth

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Terrymelin 7/19/03 8:01 AM
>What misfortune was that?
>
>Dave Hurwitz

Some would find death a misfortune and making fun of someone's death rather
sick.

Terry Ellsworth

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Phil Caron 7/19/03 8:36 AM
David Hurwitz <David_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message news:<68582019.0...@drn.newsguy.com>...

> >>
> >> What misfortune was that?
> >>
> >On the one hand, someone dying (Tureck); on the other, someone dropping
> >groceries (hypothetical example).  Your newsreader must be dropping posts.
> >
> >- Phil

> >
> How is dying a misfortune?
>
Personally, I don't feel dying necessarily is a misfortune; the timing
might be awkward, and the circumstances could be painful, but hey, we
all do it.

Ms. Tureck may have strongly wished to continue living, so from her
perspective her dying would be a misfortune.  More importantly, she
may have people emotionally close to her who feel very badly about her
death, and who see it as a great misfortune.  Some may be readers of
this group.

- Phil Caron

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/19/03 9:14 AM
On 19 Jul 2003 08:36:55 -0700, vlad...@vermontel.net (Phil Caron)
wrote:

Since she was dying of a virulent form of cancer, I doubt very much
Madame Tureck wanted to prolong her life.

You are right, Phil, we all die, a point hardly worth making, and not
much of a consolation, either to her, or her friends and family.

In fact, stated as above, it is hardly less callous, if a bit more
philosophical,  than Mr. Hurwitz's little "humorous" comment.

In any event, I do regret one thing: not being able to remark after
Richter's death: "well, the upside of this death is that endure his
ponderous Schubert B flat any more", and watch the reaction from
Richter's fans on this newsgroup. And I am one who actually likes that
performance, wacky and outrageous as it is.

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Bob Lombard 7/19/03 10:02 AM
On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 11:55:59 -0400, deac...@yahoo.com wrote:


>>> How is dying a misfortune?
>>>
>>Personally, I don't feel dying necessarily is a misfortune; the timing
>>might be awkward, and the circumstances could be painful, but hey, we
>>all do it.
>>
>>Ms. Tureck may have strongly wished to continue living, so from her
>>perspective her dying would be a misfortune.  More importantly, she
>>may have people emotionally close to her who feel very badly about her
>>death, and who see it as a great misfortune.  Some may be readers of
>>this group.
>>
>>- Phil Caron
>
>Since she was dying of a virulent form of cancer, I doubt very much
>Madame Tureck wanted to prolong her life.
>
>You are right, Phil, we all die, a point hardly worth making, and not
>much of a consolation, either to her, or her friends and family.
>
>In fact, stated as above, it is hardly less callous, if a bit more
>philosophical,  than Mr. Hurwitz's little "humorous" comment.
>
>In any event, I do regret one thing: not being able to remark after
>Richter's death: "well, the upside of this death is that endure his
>ponderous Schubert B flat any more", and watch the reaction from
>Richter's fans on this newsgroup. And I am one who actually likes that
>performance, wacky and outrageous as it is.
>
>Tom Deacon

Thank you for this post, Tom. In it you have clarified for me several
facets of your character that I was unsure about based on previous
posts.

BTW, were you ever forced to listen to that Schubert? if so, I really
don't need details.

bl

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported na...@uiuc.edu 7/19/03 10:10 AM
The recordings of hers that I've heard are wonderful. If you can get
past the didactic manner her perceptions are amazing and, to me,
utterly compelling. I had not realized that she had returned to the
United States and was still performing, or I may have looked for
opportunities to hear her play.

Irrespective of my views about Tureck's playing, I have to agree with
Terry on the other matter under discussion here.

Naun.

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/19/03 11:20 AM
>
>In any event, I do regret one thing: not being able to remark after
>Richter's death: "well, the upside of this death is that endure his
>ponderous Schubert B flat any more", and watch the reaction from
>Richter's fans on this newsgroup. >
>Tom Deacon

Thank you for making my point, Tom.

Dave Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Clovis Lark 7/19/03 11:27 AM

I met Turreck while in grad school.  She gave a quite knowedgeable seminar
and backed it up with fine playing.  That said, I don't consider the
"raost" she just received as so awful.  I think it was clearly a jest,
showed a certain aspect of her legacy with some humor.  Perhaps the
curious will now go buy her work to see what this fuss is.

> Terry Ellsworth

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Clovis Lark 7/19/03 11:28 AM

For me, yes.  I am quite comfortable with this.  Were someone to assault
my living mother or sister, that would be quite different.

> Terry Ellsworth

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/19/03 11:35 AM
>>
>Personally, I don't feel dying necessarily is a misfortune; the timing
>might be awkward, and the circumstances could be painful, but hey, we
>all do it.

Exactly.

>
>Ms. Tureck may have strongly wished to continue living, so from her
>perspective her dying would be a misfortune.  More importantly, she
>may have people emotionally close to her who feel very badly about her
>death, and who see it as a great misfortune.  Some may be readers of
>this group.
>
>- Phil Caron

So why does the fact the some may feel her death was a misfortune mean that ALL
must do so, or that the occasion of her death is not an appropriate time for a
discussion of her career or artistic significance (pro and con), humorous or
not, or simply an opportunity to express an opinion? Why is it that only the
people who loved her have feelings that need to be respected by everyone else?
It's a double standard, plain and simple.

You will note, by the way, that I said nothing at all derogatory about her. I
merely stated a fact--that she prefered slow tempos--in a humorous way. I did
not say that I was happy that she was dead, that I wished her ill, or that she
was not a fine artist (though many else here have). In fact, I expressed no
opinion about her at all, and I find it fascinating to see what people ASSUME my
attitude must be, with nary a shred of evidence to back it up other than the
utterly ridiculous suggestion that a little gentle humor at the time of
someone's death is somehow invariably indicative of disdain or disrespect.

As usual in these cases, the reactions reveal more about those reacting than
they do about anything inherent in the comment itself. I'm glad, though, that at
least some here enjoyed the joke--I've enjoyed seeing this response, much of
which is a far bigger joke than my little initial quip.

Dave Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Phil Caron 7/19/03 12:52 PM
"Simon Roberts" <sd...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<NYqdnTRqEtp...@comcast.com>...

> "Phil Caron" <vlad...@vermontel.net> wrote in message
> news:1058578155.324133@websense.vermontel.net...
> >
> > "Simon Roberts" <sd...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > news:bfa0m502btf@drn.newsguy.com...
> > > In article <mooghv0ha8n4tgs0d7pqjr15kmp38emmnd@4ax.com>, Bob says...
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >Dunno about 'beneath contempt'.  Has about the same quality of
>  'humor'
> > > >as seeing an elderly shopper stumble and dump a load of groceries

>  in
> > > >the parking lot. That's funny ain't it?
> > >
> > > No.  But how is that equivalent?
> > >
> > He didn't say it was equivalent.  He drew a parallel between two
>  examples of
> > making a joke about someone's misfortune.
>
> Sigh. OK, so what's the parallel?  He was making fun of her death?
> Making a joke out of her dying?  Hardly.  He made a comment on what she
> did while she was alive.  True, her abysmal Bach recordings were a
> misfortune, but not hers and anyway I somehow don't think that's what
> you have in mind....
>
The "he" of my post was Bob Lombard.  I'll guess that the "he" in your
post is David Hurwitz.  David immediately greeted the announcement of
Rosalyn Tureck's death with a joke, so yes, I think he was joking
about her dying.  I think I can be excused for assuming from that
conjunction that David really wanted to say "I'm so glad Tureck died
because I didn't like her playing", but even he felt compunctions
about that.  So instead we got the transparent bon mot.

Well, some people, like you, found that clever.  To me it was
mean-spirited and unnecessarily cruel to any of Tureck's family who
might happen to read it.  Oh, I forgot, this is RMCR, bastion of free
expression, where anyone who enters deserves anything they get.  Sort
of like strolling by the chimp cage at the zoo, right, Simon?

I've been enjoying Tureck's Bach recordings all morning.  I find them
serious, sensitive, committed, and technically impressive.

- Phil Caron

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Dan Koren 7/19/03 12:59 PM
<deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:72jihvor7fnehj2cfue6eo89qslruc7hd1@4ax.com...

>
> She could come across as "rigid", specially in public.
> In private you had a very different sense of the woman,
> warm, friendly, interested (in everything, not just music),
> as well as supremely intelligent. I once did a series of
> interviews with her at the keyboard, with her demonstrating
> her ideas, which has, alas, never been aired. Probably
> still in some archives. What a pity!
>
> But I suggest, John, that you listen to her B flat Partita
> from the GPE and then tell me she sounds "rigid".


It does sound flat.

dk


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Dan Koren 7/19/03 1:02 PM
<deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mbjihvkrbvgfngl92nmq0segk1j2lktcp5@4ax.com...

>
> First: You boviously believe in an afterlife. Fool!

Isn't that precisely what recordings are for?

> Second: you believe in God! Fool!
>
> Third: You believe that Bach would strike someone. Fool again!
>
> You're batting 1000 so far, Tom. Why not go for the jackpot?
>


Fourth: You believe in yourself, Tom!

Damn fool!!!

dk


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/19/03 1:12 PM
On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 13:02:56 -0400, Bob Lombard
<hill...@vermontel.net> wrote:

>On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 11:55:59 -0400, deac...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
>>>> How is dying a misfortune?
>>>>
>>>Personally, I don't feel dying necessarily is a misfortune; the timing
>>>might be awkward, and the circumstances could be painful, but hey, we
>>>all do it.
>>>
>>>Ms. Tureck may have strongly wished to continue living, so from her
>>>perspective her dying would be a misfortune.  More importantly, she
>>>may have people emotionally close to her who feel very badly about her
>>>death, and who see it as a great misfortune.  Some may be readers of
>>>this group.
>>>
>>>- Phil Caron
>>
>>Since she was dying of a virulent form of cancer, I doubt very much
>>Madame Tureck wanted to prolong her life.
>>
>>You are right, Phil, we all die, a point hardly worth making, and not
>>much of a consolation, either to her, or her friends and family.
>>
>>In fact, stated as above, it is hardly less callous, if a bit more
>>philosophical,  than Mr. Hurwitz's little "humorous" comment.
>>
>>In any event, I do regret one thing: not being able to remark after
>>Richter's death: "well, the upside of this death is that endure his
>>ponderous Schubert B flat any more", and watch the reaction from
>>Richter's fans on this newsgroup. And I am one who actually likes that
>>performance, wacky and outrageous as it is.
>>
>>Tom Deacon
>

>Thank you for this post, Tom. In it you have clarified for me several
>facets of your character that I was unsure about based on previous
>posts.
>
>BTW, were you ever forced to listen to that Schubert? if so, I really
>don't need details.
>
>bl

Nor will details be offered. But the answer is "yes", both in concert
and on records. Better in the former than the latter because of the
intensity of the concert situation. But still clearly outrageous and
wacky.

But I doubt his interpretation will ever give way to imitators. Sui
generis was invented for such acts of musical willfulness.

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/19/03 1:14 PM
On 19 Jul 2003 11:11:50 -0700, David Hurwitz
<David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:

>>>
>>Personally, I don't feel dying necessarily is a misfortune; the timing
>>might be awkward, and the circumstances could be painful, but hey, we
>>all do it.
>
>Exactly.

>
>>
>>Ms. Tureck may have strongly wished to continue living, so from her
>>perspective her dying would be a misfortune.  More importantly, she
>>may have people emotionally close to her who feel very badly about her
>>death, and who see it as a great misfortune.  Some may be readers of
>>this group.
>>
>>- Phil Caron
>
>So why does the fact the some may feel her death was a misfortune mean that ALL
>must do so, or that the occasion of her death is not an appropriate time for a
>discussion of her career or artistic significance (pro and con), humorous or
>not, or simply an opportunity to express an opinion? Why is it that only the
>people who loved her have feelings that need to be respected by everyone else?
>It's a double standard, plain and simple.
>
>You will note, by the way, that I said nothing at all derogatory about her. I
>merely stated a fact--that she prefered slow tempos--in a humorous way. I did
>not say that I was happy that she was dead, that I wished her ill, or that she
>was not a fine artist (though many else here have). In fact, I expressed no
>opinion about her at all, and I find it fascinating to see what people ASSUME my
>attitude must be, with nary a shred of evidence to back it up other than the
>utterly ridiculous suggestion that a little gentle humor at the time of
>someone's death is somehow invariably indicative of disdain or disrespect.
>
>As usual in these cases, the reactions reveal more about those reacting than
>they do about anything inherent in the comment itself. I'm glad, though, that at
>least some here enjoyed the joke--I've enjoyed seeing this response, much of
>which is a far bigger joke than my little initial quip.
>
>Dave Hurwitz


And this from the "editor" of a so-called internet review service!

A great deal is explained here.

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/19/03 1:25 PM

I think she was not really performing much in the last three years.
She had a major date in Paris in the last century which she had to
back out of and during her time in Spain - late 1990s - she was just
writing.

For all intents and purposes her performing career had come to a close
by the time of the DG Goldbergs.

Incidentally, I have yet to hear the BBC WTC. They have received very
favourable reviews in France and the UK. At the time of the reissue of
the old American Decca WTC she wondered why we did not use the BBC
recordings, but of course we didn't own those, so the 1952 recordings
were used.

While mentioning the DG recording, the producer of these recordings -
in fact the engineer, who doubled as producer -  the producer assigned
to the task was having a Lesbian self-awareness crisis, I seem to
recall and had gone to a spa to find herself - reported to me that he
had never in all his time in the business ever encountered  an artist
so well prepared, so professional in her work. He came away amazed at
this old lady just sitting down at the keyboard and delivering the
goods day after day. Those that don't know much about recordings will
probably not realize that most artists come to recording sessions
acting as though the sessions planned will allow them to repeat and
repeat a work endlessly until they get it right. A famous, or infamous
session for La Campanella (no, I will NOT reveal the name of the
pianist) included 256 edits, for example. So, for old RT to sit down
and record the GVs in her eighties without so much as an edit,
anywhere, is just unheard of. Whatever one thinks of her playing - and
it has always been controversial, as controversial as Gould's in the
same music - one has to admire her professionalism.

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/19/03 1:50 PM
>The "he" of my post was Bob Lombard.  I'll guess that the "he" in your
>post is David Hurwitz.  David immediately greeted the announcement of
>Rosalyn Tureck's death with a joke, so yes, I think he was joking
>about her dying.  

You are wrong. And I should know. I was joking about the fact that she played
Bach slowly, but then I'm something of a literalist. I tend to mean what I say.
But of course you won't believe that because it serves your holier-than-thou
purpose not to believe it.

>I think I can be excused for assuming from that
>conjunction that David really wanted to say "I'm so glad Tureck died
>because I didn't like her playing", but even he felt compunctions
>about that.  So instead we got the transparent bon mot.

Think again. I note how quickly you excuse yourself while assuming whatever you
please about others. Perhaps you should give others the same indulgence you
permit yourself.

>
>Well, some people, like you, found that clever.  To me it was
>mean-spirited and unnecessarily cruel to any of Tureck's family who
>might happen to read it.  

Oh, please! I'm sure they're delighted to have you to defend their feelings
against any (by your definition) adverse comment that might pop up in an
internet discussion group. That you might actually be serious about such
pretentious twaddle is truly amazing.

>Oh, I forgot, this is RMCR, bastion of free
>expression, where anyone who enters deserves anything they get.  Sort
>of like strolling by the chimp cage at the zoo, right, Simon?
>

Perhaps so, but if you think that your pious sanctimony and two-faced hypocrisy
"improve" the level of discourse, I'd think again.

Dave Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/19/03 1:50 PM

>
>And this from the "editor" of a so-called internet review service!
>
>A great deal is explained here.
>
>Tom Deacon

That you can say so little but sound like such a pompous ass saying it is really
kind of amazing, in its pathetic sort of way.

Dave Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/19/03 3:36 PM
On 19 Jul 2003 13:29:10 -0700, David Hurwitz
<David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:

As you please.

TD

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/19/03 3:43 PM
On 19 Jul 2003 13:28:08 -0700, David Hurwitz
<David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:

Naturally, anyone who takes offense with the callous "humour" in David
Hurwitz's remarks is now accused of "pious sancimoniousness" and
"two-faced hypocrisy". What a lod of self-defensive crap!

All of us speak and read the English language. Moreover, we all have
sufficient brains, even those of us who have been qualified by Mr.
Hurwitz as "asses", to understand not only the words but what is
behind the words.

Mr. Hurwitz would have us all take him literally. A nice enough
request but one which falls on deaf ears where I am concerned at
least. Nasty is one way of qualifying this person, mean-spirited is
another, humourless is a third. I could go on, but that is enough for
the time being.

If the shoe fits - and here it would appear to habe been benchmade -
then there is little choice but for Mr. Hurwitz to wear it.

Tom Deacon


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/19/03 3:44 PM
On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:59:55 GMT, "Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

><deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in messageCould be. It is VERY small scaled. On purpose, of course. But rigid
was the word, Dan, not flat. And rigid it definitely is not.

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/19/03 3:45 PM
On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 20:02:23 GMT, "Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

><deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:mbjihvkrbvgfngl92nmq0segk1j2lktcp5@4ax.com...

>
>Fourth: You believe in yourself, Tom!
>
>Damn fool!!!
>
>
>
>dk
>

You would rather I believe in YOU?

My goodness. Even a fool can see that would be doubly foolish!

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Dana John Hill 7/19/03 4:24 PM
This is sad news.  I will be doing an on-air tribute to her tomorrow
morning.  I am thinking I will play her Goldberg Variations.

Dana Hill
Gainesville, Florida
http://www.danajohhill.com

"Phil Garon" <pga...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:613e3493.0307180753.51fed981@posting.google.com...
> According to a message posted to Dave Lampson's music list:
>
> "Rosalyn Tureck died at approximately 10:40 PM on July 17, 2003, at
> her home in Riverdale, Bronx, New York, at the age of 88."
>
> pgaron


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Phil Caron 7/19/03 4:34 PM
David Hurwitz <David_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
> >
> >Ms. Tureck may have strongly wished to continue living, so from her
> >perspective her dying would be a misfortune.  More importantly, she
> >may have people emotionally close to her who feel very badly about her
> >death, and who see it as a great misfortune.  Some may be readers of
> >this group.
> >

> So why does the fact the some may feel her death was a misfortune mean that ALL


> must do so, or that the occasion of her death is not an appropriate time for a
> discussion of her career or artistic significance (pro and con), humorous or
> not, or simply an opportunity to express an opinion?

Others have been doing that.  Not you.

> Why is it that only the
> people who loved her have feelings that need to be respected by everyone else?
> It's a double standard, plain and simple.

The fact that the bereaved may be suffering merits no consideration
from you at all.


 
> You will note, by the way, that I said nothing at all derogatory about her.

I note that you used the opportunity of Tureck's death to make sport
of her.

>I
> merely stated a fact--that she prefered slow tempos--in a humorous way. I did
> not say that I was happy that she was dead, that I wished her ill, or that she
> was not a fine artist (though many else here have). In fact, I expressed no
> opinion about her at all, and I find it fascinating to see what people ASSUME my
> attitude must be, with nary a shred of evidence to back it up other than the
> utterly ridiculous suggestion that a little gentle humor at the time of
> someone's death is somehow invariably indicative of disdain or disrespect.
>

Given the timing of your "humor" the assumption stands.  Unless you'd
care to deny it?

> As usual in these cases, the reactions reveal more about those reacting than
> they do about anything inherent in the comment itself.

Oh no, I'm revealed.

>I'm glad, though, that at
> least some here enjoyed the joke--I've enjoyed seeing this response, much of
> which is a far bigger joke than my little initial quip.
>
The joke is that I turned to your original post assuming that it would
contain something of value, you supposedly being a music critic and
privy to knowlege and insights about the music business.  Instead I
found a little piece of shit with a peacock strutting proudly around
it.  Not good, Mr. Hurwitz.

- Phil Caron

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/19/03 4:35 PM
>
>All of us speak and read the English language. Moreover, we all have
>sufficient brains, even those of us who have been qualified by Mr.
>Hurwitz as "asses", to understand not only the words but what is
>behind the words.

You've just proven that wrong.

>
>Mr. Hurwitz would have us all take him literally. A nice enough
>request but one which falls on deaf ears where I am concerned at
>least.

That you have deaf ears has never been in dispute, Tom. And that you refuse to
accept reality when it doesn't suit you is also quite obvious.

>Nasty is one way of qualifying this person, mean-spirited is
>another, humourless is a third. I could go on, but that is enough for
>the time being.

Nasty is as nasty writes, Tom. Why not compare my single sentence about Turek to
your rant about Sanchez, and let's see which of us deserves the label more?
Haven't you had enough of your own hypocrisy? No, don't answer that. Your
remarks speak for themselves.

Dave Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Phil Caron 7/19/03 4:46 PM
Samir Golescu <gol...@uiuc.edu> wrote in message  
> As regards the by now famous joke, I thought it was a very funny -- and
> musically suggestive -- joke used perhaps at the wrong moment. On the
> other hand, it was the only moment that the joke as it was could be made
> at all! So I don't know. People's balance between tolerance for humor and
> capacity of being outraged is never quantifiable.

Partly because their tolerance & capacity vary according to
circumstances.  Take you for example, Samir.  You are terribly strict
about people using your name, even neutrally, in posting headers.  But
let someone else two days earlier get called a "fucking moron" in a
header, and you're silent as a mouse.

- Phil Caron

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/19/03 4:50 PM
Whatever one thinks of her playing - and
>it has always been controversial, as controversial as Gould's in the
>same music - one has to admire her professionalism.
>

Indeed. Moravec is another artist similarly prepared. His new Chopin disc for
Vox took one day less than planned, and the producer remarked to me that it was
amazing that he could simply sit down, play the music in complete takes, touch
up a spot or two, and be done with it.

Dave Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Phil Caron 7/19/03 4:52 PM
deac...@yahoo.com wrote in message
> On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 07:12:17 GMT, "Thomas Wood"
>
> >This is sad fom a human point of view. However, from an artistic point point
> >of view, she was the nakedess of unclothed Empresses. Now, in Elysium, Bach
> >can whack her leaden knuckles.
> >
> Two things:

>
> First: You boviously believe in an afterlife. Fool!
>
> Second: you believe in God! Fool!
>
> Third: You believe that Bach would strike someone. Fool again!
>
> You're batting 1000 so far, Tom. Why not go for the jackpot?
>
That's three things, so Tom's 3 for 2.  Therefore he's batting 1.500.

- Phil Caron

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported MarkZimmerman 7/19/03 5:38 PM
>> First: You boviously believe in an afterlife. Fool!
>> Second: you believe in God! Fool!

Gee, I believe in an afterlife.  Hell, I created it as well as everything else
in the universe (that's this universe and all the others I created as well).

Best,

Mark Allen Zimmerman * Chicago

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/19/03 5:50 PM
>
>>So why does the fact the some may feel her death was a misfortune mean that ALL
>>must do so, or that the occasion of her death is not an appropriate time for a
>> discussion of her career or artistic significance (pro and con), humorous or
>> not, or simply an opportunity to express an opinion?
>
>Others have been doing that.  Not you.

Not true; I began this discussion. You should thank me. I knew the "moral
minority" and Turek's fans would likely chime in as shrilly as they have--I've
been around here a while, you may recall, and know what I'm getting into. But I
also knew that most would simply take my comment at face value, and have a
little laugh. That's all. The remainder of this geschrei is simply entertainment
for the other participants. You, for example, seem to be enjoying yourself
thoroughly at the opportunity to posture and carry on that I have given you. So
knock yourself out while it lasts. Opportunities like this don't come along
every day.

>
>> Why is it that only the
>>people who loved her have feelings that need to be respected by everyone else?
>> It's a double standard, plain and simple.
>
>The fact that the bereaved may be suffering merits no consideration
>from you at all.

No, it does not. When someone dies, the bereaved always suffer, but they do so
for personal reasons on the basis of their personal relationship to the
deceased. Frankly, their suffering (or not) is none of your business, or mine.
It's a private thing, and they certainly don't need you to stick up for them.
Any public figure's public persona is fair game for discussion at any
time--indeed, particularly when they die; performers know this when they offer
the fruits of their labors to the public for public comment, and your concern
for the "bereaved," which would be touching were it not so opportune, is
misplaced.

>
>> You will note, by the way, that I said nothing at all derogatory about her.
>
>I note that you used the opportunity of Tureck's death to make sport
>of her.

Indeed, but there is sport well or gently meant, and sport which is malicious.
Your decision to place my remark in the second category reveals your own
decision to see the worst, and nothing more. It has nothing to do with me, since
you refuse to accept what I have clearly said regarding my intentions. The
ugliness, if such it is, lies solely within you and others like you.

>
>>I
>> merely stated a fact--that she prefered slow tempos--in a humorous way. I did
>>not say that I was happy that she was dead, that I wished her ill, or that she
>> was not a fine artist (though many else here have). In fact, I expressed no
>>opinion about her at all, and I find it fascinating to see what people ASSUME my
>> attitude must be, with nary a shred of evidence to back it up other than the
>> utterly ridiculous suggestion that a little gentle humor at the time of
>> someone's death is somehow invariably indicative of disdain or disrespect.
>>

>Given the timing of your "humor" the assumption stands.  Unless you'd
>care to deny it?

I already have denied it. It's you who refuse to believe it. As Samir has
pointed out, my "timing" could not have been otherwise, since had Turek not died
I would not have had the opportunity to make the remark in the first place,
unless of course she were to come up in another thread for some reason while
still alive. We take what opportunities fate alots.

>
>> As usual in these cases, the reactions reveal more about those reacting than
>> they do about anything inherent in the comment itself.
>
>Oh no, I'm revealed.
>
>>I'm glad, though, that at
>> least some here enjoyed the joke--I've enjoyed seeing this response, much of
>> which is a far bigger joke than my little initial quip.
>>
>The joke is that I turned to your original post assuming that it would
>contain something of value, you supposedly being a music critic and
>privy to knowlege and insights about the music business.  Instead I
>found a little piece of shit with a peacock strutting proudly around
>it.  Not good, Mr. Hurwitz.
>
>- Phil Caron

When I first starting posting here, people complained that I had no business
participating in this group because I was a "professional." So I have made it
clear ever since that I participate here as a private citizen, just like anyone
else, and my professional work speaks for itself in its proper place. And yet
whenever someone decides to attack me, up comes the "critic" business. I expect
this of course, and couldn't care less, but only further proves my point, which
is that you see what you want to see irrespective of anything that I may say or
do.

But no matter, for now you reveal your true colors; once again we see that a
harmless joke at the expense of a public figure, a mere performer, justifies any
amount of name calling, cursing, and vitriol. You have become what you most
claim to despise, Phil--but then, you always have been, haven't you? At least
now you can't hypocritically whine about the nastiness of others and the low
level of discourse in the ng. I do believe that of all the posts in this thread
thus far, yours has been the crudest, and you might want to ask yourself if my
original remark justifies your reaction, particularly when you are confronted
with what I presume will be the ex post facto self-loathing and disgust you will
feel at having descended from your pristine pedestal of virtue in order to vent
your spleen.

Dave Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/19/03 6:20 PM
In article <20030719203842.27762.00000232@mb-m23.aol.com>, markzi...@aol.com
says...

Thank you. You did an excellent job.

Dave Hurwitz, Createe

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/19/03 6:24 PM
On 19 Jul 2003 16:15:13 -0700, David Hurwitz
<David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:


>>Nasty is one way of qualifying this person, mean-spirited is
>>another, humourless is a third. I could go on, but that is enough for
>>the time being.
>
>Nasty is as nasty writes, Tom. Why not compare my single sentence about Turek to
>your rant about Sanchez, and let's see which of us deserves the label more?
>Haven't you had enough of your own hypocrisy? No, don't answer that. Your
>remarks speak for themselves.
>
>Dave Hurwitz

What a silly response!

I suppose you think my declaration that Sahcnez plays a bad piano and
is badly recorded is now classified as "nasty"

In addition to being nasty, mean-spirited, and humourless, you are
also a trifle desperate.

A simple apology for a tasteless remark would have sufficed. But no,
here you go trudging through the mud.

It is not, I think, you who should dare to refer to anyone as an ass.

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/19/03 6:26 PM
On 19 Jul 2003 16:31:59 -0700, David Hurwitz
<David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:


No surprise!

Now, perhaps if you were an equally professional "journalist", instead
of a low-life  Internet drudge, you might find something better to do
than to trash a dedicated artist who has just died of cancer.

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/19/03 6:27 PM
On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:24:03 -0400, "Dana Hill"
<da...@danajohnhill.com> wrote:

>This is sad news.  I will be doing an on-air tribute to her tomorrow
>morning.  I am thinking I will play her Goldberg Variations.
>
>Dana Hill
>Gainesville, Florida
>http://www.danajohhill.com
>

Go for it, Dana! Nothing would make Rosalyn Tureck more pleased, I
assure you.

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Phil Caron 7/19/03 6:57 PM
David Hurwitz <David_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message news:<68646488.0...@drn.newsguy.com>...

> >The "he" of my post was Bob Lombard.  I'll guess that the "he" in your
> >post is David Hurwitz.  David immediately greeted the announcement of
> >Rosalyn Tureck's death with a joke, so yes, I think he was joking
> >about her dying.  
>
> You are wrong. And I should know. I was joking about the fact that she played
> Bach slowly, but then I'm something of a literalist. I tend to mean what I say.
> But of course you won't believe that because it serves your holier-than-thou
> purpose not to believe it.
>
What's not to believe?  But as Samir points out, Rosalyn's death was
necessary for the joke to be made.  Why didn't you say, "She played
Bach slowly?"

> >To me it was
> >mean-spirited and unnecessarily cruel to any of Tureck's family who
> >might happen to read it.  
>
> Oh, please! I'm sure they're delighted to have you to defend their feelings
> against any (by your definition) adverse comment that might pop up in an
> internet discussion group.

And if it happens that I am myself one of Rosalyn's relatives?

- Phil Caron

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/19/03 7:05 PM
>
>It is not, I think, you who should dare to refer to anyone as an ass.
>
>Tom Deacon

If the shoe fits...

Dave Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Phil Caron 7/19/03 7:18 PM
deac...@yahoo.com wrote in message

(interesting info about Tureck snipped)

Thanks for the descriptive post.  I haven't heard her DG Goldbergs; I
have an earlier recording of that by Tureck, and haven't warmed to it.

I listened to part of her "Young Firebrand" album again today.
Virtuosic playing in the Liszt Paganinis, very dynamic with
exagerrated sforzandos and inner voices coming to the fore, and tempos
reasonably quick.  She had fine technique, though the sailing gets
pretty rough in #3, enough so that one suspects it was again in one
unedited take.  In her DG WTC set I would readily believe her somewhat
slowish tempos were chosen for interpretive reasons, not technical
ones.

- Phil Caron

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/19/03 7:20 PM
>
>Now, perhaps if you were an equally professional "journalist", instead
>of a low-life  Internet drudge, you might find something better to do
>than to trash a dedicated artist who has just died of cancer.
>
>Tom Deacon

I think you're running out of epithets to hurl. It's delightful to see how a
simple observation, that Turek played slowly, has become "trashing" a dedicated
artist. The shrillness of your vitriol stands in stark contrast to the offending
remark itself. And there, I think, I will leave the matter. As always, readers
will decide for themselves what to think and believe.

As I noted before, those who appreciated and enjoyed the humor understood my
intent accordingly. I couldn't care less about the rest of you, though it has
been fun watching you all carry on so. I look forward to the next opportunity.

Dave Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Alan Watkins 7/19/03 7:32 PM
>
> ...and the average worldwide tempo of Bach keyboard performances just increased
> by at least 10%.
>
> Dave Hurwitz

Yes, almost certainly true but despite slow tempi she's probably going
to get a longer obituary than anyone on this discussion group.

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Bob Lombard 7/19/03 7:47 PM
On 19 Jul 2003 18:53:04 -0700, David Hurwitz
<David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:

Hah. Fascinating dialog. I'm pretty sure it isn't substantiated often
enough to be a useful theory, but "Opposites attract, likes repel"
seems to apply to these two personalities. You guys even profess the
same intent: Make the rmcr fools dance.

Diddity bop - bop - bop.

bl

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/19/03 8:05 PM
In article <46eb3807.03071...@posting.google.com>,
vlad...@vermontel.net says...

Then I'm sorry for your loss personally, but artistically speaking and with
regard to her public persona as a performer, I have to point out that you have
no business objecting to anyone's opinion of her artistic legacy--this is who
she was, and if she courted controversy in offering her work to the public, then
it was her choice to make and not yours to question or dispute simply because
you dislike what some might say about her musical achievements posthumously. It
does scant justice to her memory for you to carry on so. Meanwhile, you might
better spend your time asking those who plan various broadcast and discographic
tributes to her now that she is dead where these same people were when she was
dying of cancer and otherwise alive to appreciate them. You see, I can play the
pity card too.

Dave Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/19/03 8:20 PM
>
>Yes, almost certainly true but despite slow tempi she's probably going
>to get a longer obituary than anyone on this discussion group.
>
>Kind regards,
>Alan M. Watkins

Don't be so sure. One of the big myths about classical performers generally,
desperately promoted by publicists, fans, and the artists themselves, is that
they are far more important than they really are. Love her or hate her, Turek
didn't matter terribly in any especially significant way beyond the pleasure she
gave her audiences. Neither Western civilization nor Bach performance would have
been significantly altered had she never existed.

The records will survive her, and they speak for themselves, but given the
popularity and frequency of Bach performance historically, I doubt that without
the force of her own unique personality her legacy will amount to much more than
a gradually diminishing cult of fans. We shall see. The gods survive. It's the
high priests and priestesses that come and go, Few remember their passing, which
of course is only just. Composers matter; works matter; performers are
ephemeral. That's essential to what classical music is.

Dave Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/19/03 8:20 PM
>
>Hah. Fascinating dialog. I'm pretty sure it isn't substantiated often
>enough to be a useful theory, but "Opposites attract, likes repel"
>seems to apply to these two personalities. You guys even profess the
>same intent: Make the rmcr fools dance.
>

Interesting theory, and quite possibly true. What's up next, fools? How about a
samba?

Dave Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Samir Golescu 7/19/03 9:20 PM

On 19 Jul 2003, Phil Caron wrote:

> Samir Golescu <gol...@uiuc.edu> wrote in message
> > As regards the by now famous joke, I thought it was a very funny -- and
> > musically suggestive -- joke used perhaps at the wrong moment. On the
> > other hand, it was the only moment that the joke as it was could be made
> > at all! So I don't know. People's balance between tolerance for humor and
> > capacity of being outraged is never quantifiable.
>
> Partly because their tolerance & capacity vary according to
> circumstances etc.

Mr. Caron, you've already said I "disgusted" you. I understood that, I
didn't answer that, mostly due to the many occasions in the past I
appreciated your manners/kindness/opinion. Many thanks for your frankness,
the point doesn't need to be driven home more. I am sorry to have
disappointed you. I think there is little else left to be said.

regards,
SG

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Simon Roberts 7/19/03 9:36 PM

"Phil Caron" <vlad...@vermontel.net> wrote in message
news:46eb3807.0307191152.728adc2@posting.google.com...
> "Simon Roberts" <sd...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:<NYqdnTRqEtp...@comcast.com>...
> > "Phil Caron" <vlad...@vermontel.net> wrote in message
> > news:1058578155.324133@websense.vermontel.net...
> > >
> > > "Simon Roberts" <sd...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> >
> > Sigh. OK, so what's the parallel?  He was making fun of her death?
> > Making a joke out of her dying?  Hardly.  He made a comment on what
she
> > did while she was alive.  True, her abysmal Bach recordings were a
> > misfortune, but not hers and anyway I somehow don't think that's
what
> > you have in mind....

> >
> The "he" of my post was Bob Lombard.  I'll guess that the "he" in your
> post is David Hurwitz.

Correct.

  David immediately greeted the announcement of
> Rosalyn Tureck's death with a joke, so yes, I think he was joking
> about her dying.

Don't be silly.  It's a joke occasioned by her death.

  I think I can be excused for assuming from that
> conjunction that David really wanted to say "I'm so glad Tureck died
> because I didn't like her playing", but even he felt compunctions
> about that.

That assumption may say more about you than it does about him.

 So instead we got the transparent bon mot.
>
> Well, some people, like you, found that clever.

What makes you think I found it "clever"?  I found it funny.

 To me it was
> mean-spirited and unnecessarily cruel to any of Tureck's family who
> might happen to read it.

Doesn't look cruel to me.  Why assume that someone who makes a joke
about her slow tempi is a foe?  (You may have noticed - or perhaps not -
that those who make the most fun of Celibidache and his slow tempi are
Celibidache fans.)  Why assume that a Tureck family member reading this
comment would share your interpretation of it or find it, of all things,
"cruel"?

  Oh, I forgot, this is RMCR, bastion of free
> expression, where anyone who enters deserves anything they get.  Sort
> of like strolling by the chimp cage at the zoo, right, Simon?

The quality of reasoning found in this newsgroup often fares badly by
the comparison.

Simon


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Simon Roberts 7/19/03 9:39 PM

"David Hurwitz" <David_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:68638310.00011480.007@drn.newsguy.com...

>
> You will note, by the way, that I said nothing at all derogatory about
her.

[snip]

That fact will not be noted (and, indeed, has evidently not been noted)
because it would be inconvenient to do so.

Simon


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Dan Koren 7/19/03 10:16 PM
deac...@yahoo.com wrote in message news:<ndijhvs2a7u8s886v6dnhpnrt0ur6s20ae@4ax.com>...
> On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:59:55 GMT, "Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com>

> wrote:
>
> ><deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:72jihvor7fnehj2cfue6eo89qslruc7hd1@4ax.com...

> >> But I suggest, John, that you listen to her B flat Partita
> >> from the GPE and then tell me she sounds "rigid".
> >
> > It does sound flat.
>
> Could be. It is VERY small scaled.

It is scaled so small that it does not matter.

> On purpose, of course. But rigid was the word, Dan, not flat.

And rigid was the writer, too.

> And rigid it definitely is not.

Flat, rigid, who cares? You got my
meaning, didn't you? You're wasting
your time (and everybody else's)
trying to wiggle your way out by
splitting hairs and pretending
not to have noticed the main
theme....

dk

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Wayne Reimer 7/20/03 12:38 AM
> In article <68616698.0...@drn.newsguy.com>, David_...@newsguy.com says...
<...>
> It's OK to plaster them when they
> are living, as long as we spare a moment for a twinge of sentiment when they
> croak. It's pure hypocrisy, a laughable self-indulgence, and nothing more.
>
> Dave Hurwitz
>
>
Having some consideration for the feelings of those who might be having some
stong emotional reaction to the death and therefore restraining impulses for
cheap jokes at the expense of the deceased is not hypocrisy, even if you have
no respect for the dead person.  It's civility.

wr

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Dan Koren 7/20/03 3:09 AM
"David Hurwitz" <David_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:68656513.00006705.050@drn.newsguy.com...

> >
> >All of us speak and read the English language. Moreover, we all have
> >sufficient brains, even those of us who have been qualified by Mr.
> >Hurwitz as "asses", to understand not only the words but what is
> >behind the words.
>
> You've just proven that wrong.
>
> >
> >Mr. Hurwitz would have us all take him literally. A nice enough
> >request but one which falls on deaf ears where I am concerned at
> >least.
>
> That you have deaf ears has never been in dispute, Tom.
>


That shouldn't matter as long as one
follows the urtext in every one of
its minutiae...

dk


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Dan Koren 7/20/03 3:13 AM
"David Hurwitz" <David_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:68669432.000103f9.007@drn.newsguy.com...


... and reviewers are even more ephemeral...


... which seems to beg the question ...


... how can anyone so ephemeral be so
    essential to what classical music is ...


... what is the meaning of is ... ?


dk


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Steve Molino 7/20/03 4:05 AM
"Dana Hill" <da...@danajohnhill.com> wrote in message
news:bfcjuk$ume$1@spnode25.nerdc.ufl.edu...

> This is sad news.  I will be doing an on-air tribute to her tomorrow
> morning.  I am thinking I will play her Goldberg Variations.
>

That sounds about right.  Too bad your show doesn't run all day.  Maybe you
would be able to play something in addition to the GV.


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/20/03 5:50 AM
In article <MPG.1983e65b2...@news.sf.sbcglobal.net>, Wayne says...

In music and the arts people are always having strong reactions to something or
another; one type is not more important than any other. It's simply in the
nature of things. People having strong emotional reactions who can't handle
those who are NOT having such reactions, or who cannot bear to see contrary
opinions in a time of difficulty, should nurse their feelings elsewhere. Once
again you confuse a joke concerning an artist's legacy with having "no respect"
for the person, and "civility," also encompasses tolerance for differing
opinions, remarks made in (perceived) questionable taste, differences in one's
definition of humor, and everything in between--and if such tolerance flies out
the window in every moment of emotional distress, then the term has no meaning
whatsoever.

Of all of the comments in this thread, my original one remains the least
"uncivil" coming from those who claim to dislike Ms. Turek (because I never
claim to dislike her at all--I have been assigned that role by those with an
interest in seeing it that way), and certainly it is far more civil than the
comments of those who object to it. So your concern for "civility" is misplaced
in this context.

Dave Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Phil Caron 7/20/03 6:06 AM
David Hurwitz <David_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message news:<68573939.0...@drn.newsguy.com>...
> >>
> >Dunno about 'beneath contempt'.  Has about the same quality of 'humor'
> >as seeing an elderly shopper stumble and dump a load of groceries in
> >the parking lot. That's funny ain't it?
> >
> >bl
> >
>
> It might be if you were the shopper...
>
> Dave Hurwitz

The literalist.

- Phil Caron

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Richard Schultz 7/20/03 6:20 AM
In article <68703696.0...@drn.newsguy.com>, David Hurwitz <David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:

: People having strong emotional reactions who can't handle
: those who are NOT having such reactions, or who cannot bear to see contrary
: opinions in a time of difficulty, should nurse their feelings elsewhere.

Perhaps you should keep this statement in mind the next time that someone
makes a joke at *your* expense.

-----
Richard Schultz                              sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
 "an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/20/03 6:20 AM
>
>
>... and reviewers are even more ephemeral...

Obviously, but it doesn't change the validity of the point. Why do you assume
that it's necessary to remind me that critics are even LESS important? Of course
they are. What difference does that make? This isn't a comparison for the
purpose of exalting one group at the expense of another in terms of their
relative significance--it's simply an observation based on the historical
reality of our classical music tradition. Any critic writing for posterity can't
possibly be doing his job, which is to be relevant to his audience today--and if
he achieves some measure of posthumous fame, it's because what he said about his
own day has some relevance to a future audience. No one can predict or plan for
that eventuality other than to note that the chances of it happening are
extremely small.

>
>
>... how can anyone so ephemeral be so
>    essential to what classical music is ...

Not a difficult question, Dan. They are essential because they perform, and
without them the music would not exist. The act of performance is necessary in
general, just as a factory cannot produce goods without workers; and while some
workers may be better at what they do than others, ultimately the importance of
individual, SPECIFIC performance is not significant in the long term. Perhaps
this anomaly accounts for the hysteria and exaggerated claims made by partisans
of particular performers; they think that the louder they scream and the purer
and more selfless their love, the greater the chances that their idols will
achieve the "permanence" of value that validates their own personal artistic
preferences and loyalty to the cause.

Still, it's a tenuous position at best. Old workers die and new ones are ready
to take their place in the same job, producing the same goods, and on the whole
since they are trained by the previous generation and work from the same
blueprints, knowledge and quality are maintained. One's personal feelings about
specific performers, however intense, have no bearing on the historical process.
And criticism, which is the discussion of the quantitative and qualitative
differences between these performers, has even less significance beyond the
moment, being at one further remove from even the ephemeral act of performance
itself. Music which has little or no existence beyond a specific performance is
called "popular" in general--music of its day, of a particular fasion, and no
other.

>
>... what is the meaning of is ... ?
>

Ask Bill.

Dave Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported John Harrington 7/20/03 6:25 AM
"Yes" <n...@may.be> wrote in message news:<bf9ltq$e63$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>...
> Terrymelin <terry...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20030718145407.01007.00000083@mb-m22.aol.com...
> > >>"Rosalyn Tureck died at approximately 10:40 PM on July 17, 2003, at
> > >>her home in Riverdale, Bronx, New York, at the age of 88."
> > >>
> > >>pgaron

> > >
> > >...and the average worldwide tempo of Bach keyboard performances just
> > >increased
> > >by at least 10%.
> > >
> > >Dave Hurwitz
> > >
> >
> > That kind of comment is beneath contempt
>
> I think you meant to type "I find that kind of comment beneath contempt...". So far, no-one agrees
> with you.

Perhaps he should have written "decent people find that kind of
comment beneath contempt".  Most such people have long ago stopped
reading rmcr.


John

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/20/03 6:38 AM
On 19 Jul 2003 19:50:32 -0700, David Hurwitz
<David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:

>>
>>Yes, almost certainly true but despite slow tempi she's probably going
>>to get a longer obituary than anyone on this discussion group.
>>
>>Kind regards,
>>Alan M. Watkins
>
>Don't be so sure. One of the big myths about classical performers generally,
>desperately promoted by publicists, fans, and the artists themselves, is that
>they are far more important than they really are. Love her or hate her, Turek
>didn't matter terribly in any especially significant way beyond the pleasure she
>gave her audiences. Neither Western civilization nor Bach performance would have
>been significantly altered had she never existed.
>
>The records will survive her, and they speak for themselves, but given the
>popularity and frequency of Bach performance historically, I doubt that without
>the force of her own unique personality her legacy will amount to much more than
>a gradually diminishing cult of fans. We shall see. The gods survive. It's the
>high priests and priestesses that come and go, Few remember their passing, which
>of course is only just. Composers matter; works matter; performers are
>ephemeral. That's essential to what classical music is.
>
>Dave Hurwitz


Perfectly true.

A worse fate awaits those who write about music, however. Their words
die almost as soon as they are written. One has to ask why they even
bother, given the ephemeral nature of their work.

Tom Deacon


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/20/03 6:43 AM
On 19 Jul 2003 18:53:04 -0700, David Hurwitz
<David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:

>>
>>Now, perhaps if you were an equally professional "journalist", instead
>>of a low-life  Internet drudge, you might find something better to do
>>than to trash a dedicated artist who has just died of cancer.
>>
>>Tom Deacon
>
>I think you're running out of epithets to hurl. It's delightful to see how a
>simple observation, that Turek played slowly,

If that, in fact, had been the intent of your post, it would not have
been "funny". Your embarrassment is obvious, as is your ungraciousness
in refusing to withdraw your cheap witticism on the occasion of the
artist's death.

 has become "trashing" a dedicated
>artist. The shrillness of your vitriol stands in stark contrast to the offending
>remark itself. And there, I think, I will leave the matter. As always, readers
>will decide for themselves what to think and believe.
>
>As I noted before, those who appreciated and enjoyed the humor understood my
>intent accordingly. I couldn't care less about the rest of you

That is quite obvious.

though it has
>been fun watching you all carry on so.

One has the impression that your remarks were, in fact, intended to
arouse the anger and indignation of RT's many admirers. Which, of
course, calls into question the motives behind them.

As we have all realized: a cheap joke from a cheap critic. In fact,
not only cheat, but free! LOL!

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/20/03 6:47 AM
On 19 Jul 2003 19:18:44 -0700, vlad...@vermontel.net (Phil Caron)
wrote:

>deac...@yahoo.com wrote in message
>

Quite true. It is, as most pianists know, FAR harder to play some
things slower rather than faster. The control demanded increases
exponentially as the tempo decreases. And RT had fabulous control. As
I remarked earlier, a Horowitz pupil and a noted pianist in his own
right once remarked to me that RT had the most complete piano
technique he had ever seen.

Food for thought, I would say, whatever you may think of Tureck's
interpretive decisions. The lady could do anything at the piano.

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported JohnGavin 7/20/03 6:56 AM
augusthe...@msn.com (August Helmbright) wrote in message news:<12cbb4d6.0307181405.140113a4@posting.google.com>...
> terry...@aol.com (Terrymelin) wrote in message news:<20030718145407.01007.00000083@mb-m22.aol.com>...

> > >>"Rosalyn Tureck died at approximately 10:40 PM on July 17, 2003, at
> > >>her home in Riverdale, Bronx, New York, at the age of 88."
> > >>
> > >>pgaron
> > >
> > >...and the average worldwide tempo of Bach keyboard performances just
> > >increased
> > >by at least 10%.
> > >
> > >Dave Hurwitz
> > >
> >
> > That kind of comment is beneath contempt as the first and only reaction to the
> > death of an artist.
> >
> Quite agreed. Rosalyn Tureck was a truly first class musician of high
> intelligence, scholarship and technique. Her WTC I & II recordings are
> truly desert island material, IMO. I've said it before and I'll say it
> again, that George Szell's famous remark about Glenn Gould - "That
> nut's a genius" - was probably right on both counts, but with Tureck,
> you got the genius without (at least most of) the nuttiness.

I've got to disagree about Tureck being a genius.  Gould, yes, Tureck
no.  Gould was highly eccentric, true, but somehow, he came across as
geniune, whereas I found Tureck often affected - but personalities
aside, if you compare Gould's influence on Bach playing and modern
pianism to Tureck's, and you're honest about it, you'll realize that
he was huge and she was miniscule.  His 1955 Goldbergs have probably
sold more copies than all her recordings combined.  As time passes I
also predict that the name Landowska will far outlast Tureck.  Just
the fact that the vast majority of Tureck's recordings can now only be
found in used vinyl stores should tell you something.

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Nicolai P. Zwar 7/20/03 7:58 AM
Samir Golescu wrote:

> On 18 Jul 2003, David Hurwitz wrote:
>
>
>>>"Rosalyn Tureck died at approximately 10:40 PM on July 17, 2003, at
>>>her home in Riverdale, Bronx, New York, at the age of 88."
>>
>>...and the average worldwide tempo of Bach keyboard performances just
>>increased by at least 10%.
>
>
> INEXCUSABLY cynical!!

Yes, it was cynical, but it was also quite funny. I doubt that David
meant it in a meanspirited way, at least I didn't take it that way.


--
Nicolai Zwar
http://www.nicolaizwar.com
(we're late, we know, and we're still closed)

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/20/03 8:05 AM
On 20 Jul 2003 06:56:07 -0700, dag...@comcast.net (John Gavin) wrote:

>augusthe...@msn.com (August Helmbright) wrote in message news:<12cbb4d6.0307181405.140113a4@posting.google.com>...
>> terry...@aol.com (Terrymelin) wrote in message news:<20030718145407.01007.00000083@mb-m22.aol.com>...
>> > >>"Rosalyn Tureck died at approximately 10:40 PM on July 17, 2003, at
>> > >>her home in Riverdale, Bronx, New York, at the age of 88."
>> > >>
>> > >>pgaron

>> > >
>> > >...and the average worldwide tempo of Bach keyboard performances just
>> > >increased
>> > >by at least 10%.
>> > >
>> > >Dave Hurwitz
>> > >
>> >
>> > That kind of comment is beneath contempt as the first and only reaction to the
>> > death of an artist.
>> >
>> Quite agreed. Rosalyn Tureck was a truly first class musician of high
>> intelligence, scholarship and technique. Her WTC I & II recordings are
>> truly desert island material, IMO. I've said it before and I'll say it
>> again, that George Szell's famous remark about Glenn Gould - "That
>> nut's a genius" - was probably right on both counts, but with Tureck,
>> you got the genius without (at least most of) the nuttiness.
>
>I've got to disagree about Tureck being a genius.  Gould, yes, Tureck
>no.  Gould was highly eccentric, true, but somehow, he came across as
>geniune, whereas I found Tureck often affected - but personalities
>aside, if you compare Gould's influence on Bach playing and modern
>pianism to Tureck's, and you're honest about it, you'll realize that
>he was huge and she was miniscule.  His 1955 Goldbergs have probably
>sold more copies than all her recordings combined.  As time passes I
>also predict that the name Landowska will far outlast Tureck.  Just
>the fact that the vast majority of Tureck's recordings can now only be
>found in used vinyl stores should tell you something.

I am quite amazed at the inaccuracies in this post.

1. There are dozens of Tureck recordings in the current catalogue.
Just look and you will find them all.

2. Landowska has become a much forgotten figure of the past, alas. And
most of the neglect can put put down to her choice of that monster
Pleyel harpsichord she used.

3. The sales of Gould's Goldbergs is not really relevant, in my
opinion, to the nature of his influence. Please name ONE pianist who
has dared to imitate this "nut", or "genius", whichever term you
prefer.

4. Gould was, and he said so many times, influenced principally by
Tureck in his Bach playing, not the other way around.

5.Gemius is a very difficult term to use properly. Mozart was a
genius. Bach, too. Beethoven. But as you start down the list of
composers, let alone interpreters, the word begins to lose meaning
rather quickly.

That said, I can accept your disagreement on Tureck's playing. That is
your perfect right.

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/20/03 8:06 AM
And here we thought that Mr. Hurwitz had departed this thread for
good.

Alas, even patience has not been rewarded.

Tom Deacon


On 20 Jul 2003 05:54:57 -0700, David Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/20/03 8:58 AM
On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 16:58:29 +0200, "Nicolai P. Zwar"
<NPZ...@bigfoot.com> wrote:

>Samir Golescu wrote:
>> On 18 Jul 2003, David Hurwitz wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>"Rosalyn Tureck died at approximately 10:40 PM on July 17, 2003, at
>>>>her home in Riverdale, Bronx, New York, at the age of 88."
>>>
>>>...and the average worldwide tempo of Bach keyboard performances just
>>>increased by at least 10%.
>>
>>
>> INEXCUSABLY cynical!!
>
>Yes, it was cynical, but it was also quite funny. I doubt that David
>meant it in a meanspirited way, at least I didn't take it that way.


A generous soul! But hardly perceptive. Mr. Hurwitz's spost since his
original one have clarified his "motives". Read a bit further and you
will find it all spelled out in his nasty, mean-spirited manner.

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/20/03 9:05 AM
In article <3F1AAE15...@bigfoot.com>, "Nicolai says...

>
>Samir Golescu wrote:
>> On 18 Jul 2003, David Hurwitz wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>"Rosalyn Tureck died at approximately 10:40 PM on July 17, 2003, at
>>>>her home in Riverdale, Bronx, New York, at the age of 88."
>>>
>>>...and the average worldwide tempo of Bach keyboard performances just
>>>increased by at least 10%.
>>
>>
>> INEXCUSABLY cynical!!
>
>Yes, it was cynical, but it was also quite funny. I doubt that David
>meant it in a meanspirited way, at least I didn't take it that way.
>
>

Of course I didn't! Amazing, though, the number of people who seem to NEED to
take it that way!

Dave Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported PaulYarishRPT 7/20/03 9:43 AM
>I am quite amazed at the inaccuracies in this post.
>
>1. There are dozens of Tureck recordings in the current catalogue.
>Just look and you will find them all.
>
>2. Landowska has become a much forgotten figure of the past, alas. And
>most of the neglect can put put down to her choice of that monster
>Pleyel harpsichord she used.
>
>3. The sales of Gould's Goldbergs is not really relevant, in my
>opinion, to the nature of his influence. Please name ONE pianist who
>has dared to imitate this "nut", or "genius", whichever term you
>prefer.
>
>4. Gould was, and he said so many times, influenced principally by
>Tureck in his Bach playing, not the other way around.
>
>5.Gemius is a very difficult term to use properly. Mozart was a
>genius. Bach, too. Beethoven. But as you start down the list of
>composers, let alone interpreters, the word begins to lose meaning
>rather quickly.
>
>That said, I can accept your disagreement on Tureck's playing. That is
>your perfect right.
>
>Tom Deacon

I don't wish to be argumentative, but I would like to take issue with points 3
and 4.

Regarding point 3, I would say that nearly every pianist I have heard who was
born after Gould, and who grew up listening to his Bach recordings, has been
influenced by Gould's playing. Bach playing on the piano has never been the
same, if for no other reason because of the detache touch and near lack of
sustain pedal usage that define most Bach piano playing nowadays. I've heard it
to some degree in every pianist's Bach playing I have encountered. That's not
to say these pianists are imitators, or that they have attempted to emulate his
unique musical ideas. Certainly not. I only mean to say that Gould's approach
to the keyboard, I believe, has forever changed the way pianists approach Bach
at the piano.

As far as point 4 is concerned, I don't doubt Gould's sincerity when he claimed
that Turek influenced his Bach playing. It is impossible to say to what degree
was that influence, but I would susppect not very much. I am inclined to
believe that the person Gould came closest to imitating was his teacher,
Alberto Guerrero. Listen to Guerrero's recordings if you doubt this. Ultimately
though, Gould really came out of nowhere with his own radical, unique, and even
strange ideas, and should at least be givine credit for originality, regardless
of whether you are sympathetic to his ideas or not (I suspect you are not). It
would be a distortion of the truth to say that Gould was anyone's imitator in
any aspect of his life, musical or otherwise. Whether that originality made him
a nut or genius, depends on one's perspective. Personally, I think he was both
nut and genius...I never understood why I had to choose between the two.

Paul

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged) 7/20/03 10:05 AM
deac...@yahoo.com appears to have caused the following letters to be
typed in news:jfblhv4d5d7jm322e6o75ukkonslmhk2de@4ax.com:

> 3. The sales of Gould's Goldbergs is not really relevant, in my opinion,
> to the nature of his influence. Please name ONE pianist who has dared to
> imitate this "nut", or "genius", whichever term you prefer.

Oh, sheesh, practically any of the current crowd who ape that seccississimo
style of playing.  You want a name?  OK, then, Mustonen.

--
Matthew B. Tepper:  WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Mark Coy tossed off eBay?  http://makeashorterlink.com/?M2B734C02
RMCR's most pointless, dumb and laughable chowderhead:  Mark Coy.

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/20/03 10:35 AM
>>
>>Yes, it was cynical, but it was also quite funny. I doubt that David
>>meant it in a meanspirited way, at least I didn't take it that way.
>
>
>A generous soul! But hardly perceptive.

I see. So Mr. Zwar isn't perceptive because he does not see things the way you
do and has the kindness to extend the benefit of the doubt. And of course my
stated intentions must also be wrong because you know better. I'm sure it must
be fun, Tom, living as you do in your little make-believe world.

>Mr. Hurwitz's spost since his
>original one have clarified his "motives". Read a bit further and you
>will find it all spelled out in his nasty, mean-spirited manner.
>
>Tom Deacon

Indeed; do read on. I'm curious to find the posting where I say anything at all
derogatory about Ms. Turek personally, or her musical legacy. Plenty of people
in this thread have; I am not one of them. But as Simon pointed out, admitting
that fact would be inconvenient, wouldn't it?

Dave Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/20/03 10:35 AM
>
>Perhaps you should keep this statement in mind the next time that someone
>makes a joke at *your* expense.
>
>-----
>Richard Schultz                              sch...@mail.biu.ac.il

I'll try.

Dave

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/20/03 10:50 AM
>>3. The sales of Gould's Goldbergs is not really relevant, in my
>>opinion, to the nature of his influence. Please name ONE pianist who
>>has dared to imitate this "nut", or "genius", whichever term you
>>prefer.

Winner! RMCR Non-sequitor of the month!

First of all, the extent to which any artist becomes known is entirely relevant
to the question of "influence," for if no one hears him, then how can his
influence be made manifest? The number of young (and old) pianists I know who
claim to have been "influenced" by Gould's Goldbergs--well, let's just say it's
easier to count those who have NOT been influenced that those who have.

Second, since when is "influence" expressed only as "imitation?" As often as not
the influence of an artist as powerfully individual as Gould is seen in artists
who define themselves in contrast or opposition to him; or who are stimulated to
achieve their own equally personal brand of self-expression; or who find an
affinity for repertoire they might not otherwise have explored as a result of
hearing him. Gould's goes far beyond mere imitation.

As to why you may not want to credit Gould with the significance as a Bach
player that he probably deserves, it is common knowledge in the industry that
you have had an axe to grind ever since Sony refused you the rights to any of
his Bach recordings for your Great Pianists series. Can this be mere
coincidence? Or am I making false "assumptions" about your "true" motives?

Dave Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/20/03 10:56 AM
On 20 Jul 2003 16:43:02 GMT, paulya...@aol.com (PaulYarishRPT)
wrote:

>>I am quite amazed at the inaccuracies in this post.
>>
>>1. There are dozens of Tureck recordings in the current catalogue.
>>Just look and you will find them all.
>>
>>2. Landowska has become a much forgotten figure of the past, alas. And
>>most of the neglect can put put down to her choice of that monster
>>Pleyel harpsichord she used.
>>
>>3. The sales of Gould's Goldbergs is not really relevant, in my
>>opinion, to the nature of his influence. Please name ONE pianist who
>>has dared to imitate this "nut", or "genius", whichever term you
>>prefer.
>>
>>4. Gould was, and he said so many times, influenced principally by
>>Tureck in his Bach playing, not the other way around.
>>
>>5.Gemius is a very difficult term to use properly. Mozart was a
>>genius. Bach, too. Beethoven. But as you start down the list of
>>composers, let alone interpreters, the word begins to lose meaning
>>rather quickly.
>>
>>That said, I can accept your disagreement on Tureck's playing. That is
>>your perfect right.
>>
>>Tom Deacon
>
>I don't wish to be argumentative, but I would like to take issue with points 3
>and 4.
>
>Regarding point 3, I would say that nearly every pianist I have heard who was
>born after Gould, and who grew up listening to his Bach recordings, has been
>influenced by Gould's playing. Bach playing on the piano has never been the
>same, if for no other reason because of the detache touch and near lack of
>sustain pedal usage that define most Bach piano playing nowadays.

This a legacy of Tureck. Gould just copied her.

 I've heard it
>to some degree in every pianist's Bach playing I have encountered.

Have you heard the ever-lovely, demure Ms. Hewitt?

That's not
>to say these pianists are imitators, or that they have attempted to emulate his
>unique musical ideas. Certainly not. I only mean to say that Gould's approach
>to the keyboard, I believe, has forever changed the way pianists approach Bach
>at the piano.
>
>As far as point 4 is concerned, I don't doubt Gould's sincerity when he claimed
>that Turek influenced his Bach playing. It is impossible to say to what degree
>was that influence, but I would susppect not very much. I am inclined to
>believe that the person Gould came closest to imitating was his teacher,
>Alberto Guerrero. Listen to Guerrero's recordings if you doubt this. Ultimately
>though, Gould really came out of nowhere with his own radical, unique, and even
>strange ideas, and should at least be givine credit for originality, regardless
>of whether you are sympathetic to his ideas or not (I suspect you are not). It
>would be a distortion of the truth to say that Gould was anyone's imitator in
>any aspect of his life, musical or otherwise. Whether that originality made him
>a nut or genius, depends on one's perspective. Personally, I think he was both
>nut and genius...I never understood why I had to choose between the two.

Regarding the nut and genius remark. As I said, the term genius I
would tend to reserve for Mozart. Gould - who tried to destroy Mozart
(some genius!) - was simply a piano-player. The rest is hype.

Guerrero did NOT teach Gould the way to play Bach. I know many of his
pupils, none of whom play Bach remotely like GG. Gould, who, by the
way, renounced Guerrero as a teacher,  eithe learned it on his own, or
imitated elements of Tureck's Bach. The problem is, of course, that he
did it without much in the way of musicality; it is just quirky and
sensationalist.

Tom Deaconr

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/20/03 10:58 AM
On 20 Jul 2003 16:46:02 GMT, "Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net
are forged)" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:

>deac...@yahoo.com appears to have caused the following letters to be
>typed in news:jfblhv4d5d7jm322e6o75ukkonslmhk2de@4ax.com:
>
>> 3. The sales of Gould's Goldbergs is not really relevant, in my opinion,
>> to the nature of his influence. Please name ONE pianist who has dared to
>> imitate this "nut", or "genius", whichever term you prefer.
>
>Oh, sheesh, practically any of the current crowd who ape that seccississimo
>style of playing.  You want a name?  OK, then, Mustonen.

Isn't he the one who continually breaks strings? Gould never banged
the piano like Mustonen. In any event, I think Mustonen is giving up
the piano for the baton. What a relief!

Any other candidates? Koroliov, unlikely, Hewitt, not at all, Schiff,
I think not, too limp.

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Dana John Hill 7/20/03 12:47 PM
I did, in fact, play Tureck's Goldberg Variations this morning during my
show.  We almost never play the whole set by any performer, simply because
it's pretty long.  The shortest cycle I have personally is Pinnock's, which
is almost exactly an hour.  Tureck's is a half hour longer than that.  But I
played it straight through, of course, without any breaks.  I even had some
listeners call and applaud it.  That was nice, because I typically operate
under the assumption that nobody is listening to me.  I discovered that
wasn't the case, though, when, a couple weeks ago, I played Schoenberg's Ode
to Napoleon.

Dana Hill
Gainesville, Florida


"Steve Molino" <s_mo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:nHuSa.27437$ye5.5581312@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Simon Roberts 7/20/03 1:09 PM

"Wayne Reimer" <wr...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1983e65b224b67189897a1@news.sf.sbcglobal.net...

> >
> Having some consideration for the feelings of those who might be
having some
> stong emotional reaction to the death and therefore restraining
impulses for
> cheap jokes at the expense of the deceased is not hypocrisy, even if
you have
> no respect for the dead person.  It's civility.

Let's assume for present purposes that The Joke was "at her expense"
(the only rule David H broke as far as I can tell is the rmcr rule that
when a musician dies, for at least a week one may say nothing other than
that his/her death is of incalculable loss to
music/civilization/humanity) and that those who have "some strong
emotional reaction to" her death are nevertheless reading this
newsgroup, your post raises some interesting questions about the extent
of this "civility."  If the dispositive factor is sensitivity to the
feelings of those who care about the musician in question on a personal
(or indeed any other) way, why should this deference be limited to the
relatives of musicians who are recently dead?  No-one complains *on
these grounds* when musicians get trashed, as they regularly do around
here; no complained on these grounds the last time Barbirolli's Mahler 5
was trashed or when the complaint was made that Solti can't count or
when someone quipped for the nth time that Gould was a robot; and Deacon
evidently wasn't concerned, when he expressed earlier in this thread the
hope that Mustonen stops playing the piano, with the feelings of members
of Mustonen's family who may stumble across his comments.

By the way, I hope none of those who were so incensed by The Joke read
Rodney Milnes' obituary for Karajan in The Spectator, which ended with a
sentence that read (more-or-less; I forget the precise words he used):
"Ultimately, Karajan was a bad man and a bad musician and the world is a
better place without him."  Should he not have said it?  Not said it at
all?  Not said it *then*?

Simon


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/20/03 1:30 PM
On 20 Jul 2003 10:32:26 -0700, David Hurwitz
<David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:

>>>3. The sales of Gould's Goldbergs is not really relevant, in my
>>>opinion, to the nature of his influence. Please name ONE pianist who
>>>has dared to imitate this "nut", or "genius", whichever term you
>>>prefer.

>As to why you may not want to credit Gould with the significance as a Bach


>player that he probably deserves, it is common knowledge in the industry that
>you have had an axe to grind ever since Sony refused you the rights to any of
>his Bach recordings for your Great Pianists series. Can this be mere
>coincidence? Or am I making false "assumptions" about your "true" motives?
>
>Dave Hurwitz


I have made it a habit not to discuss "motivations" in selecting
repertoire for the GPE.

The attitude of various companies to certain artists was alwasys a
difficulty. In the case of GG the problems were further compounded by
the Gould Estate, run by a lawyer whom GG was going to fire before he
up and died, leaving his estate in the hands of this person. Something
of a tragedy, actually.

In any event, my "attitude" to GG is well known in Canada, where for
years and years I have railed against the gross insensitivity of his
musical decisions.

So, I would check your "common knowledge" sources. So far they have
been wrong.

Quelle surprise! So much of what you write is wrong too.

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Dan Koren 7/20/03 2:55 PM
"Richard Schultz" <sch...@mail.biu.ack.il> wrote in message
news:bfe4qf$s1e$2@news.iucc.ac.il...

> In article <68703696.0...@drn.newsguy.com>, David Hurwitz
<David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
> : People having strong emotional reactions who can't handle
> : those who are NOT having such reactions, or who cannot bear
> : to see contrary opinions in a time of difficulty, should
> : nurse their feelings elsewhere.
>
> Perhaps you should keep this statement in mind the next time
> that someone makes a joke at *your* expense.
>


Keep in mind however that David H. is not an artist -- just a
reviewer! ;-)

dk


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Dan Koren 7/20/03 3:02 PM
<deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:jfblhv4d5d7jm322e6o75ukkonslmhk2de@4ax.com...

>
> 3. The sales of Gould's Goldbergs is not really relevant,
> in my opinion, to the nature of his influence. Please name
> ONE pianist who has dared to imitate this "nut", or "genius",
> whichever term you prefer.
>


I will take you up on this one, Mr. Piano Expert!

Pianists (at least the good/better ones) do not
usually "imitate" other pianists -- they are
rather influenced by them -- apparently this
distinction has no currency in the Rideau
Corridor.

And to my ears, one can hear Gould's influence
very clearly in the playing of Vladimir Feltsman,
Sergei Schepkin, Evgeny Korolev, Andrei Gavrilov
and many others. Imitation? No. Influence? Yes!

dk


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Dan Koren 7/20/03 3:03 PM
<deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ugulhvcg1ofcfkj35f8mf0sh69lji3jn2m@4ax.com...

>
> I have made it a habit not to discuss "motivations" in
> selecting repertoire for the GPE.
>


A very convenient habbit ;-)

dk


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/20/03 3:52 PM
On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 22:02:22 GMT, "Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

><deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in messageA nice distinction.

However, I would be hard put to cite examples of such "influence" in
the pianists you mention, with the exception of the obscure Russian
whose work I do not know.

Surprised also that you did not cite Alexis Weissenberg.

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported PaulYarishRPT 7/20/03 3:53 PM
>Have you heard the ever-lovely, demure Ms. Hewitt?

Yes, I have. I was including her. If you contend that her playing has not been
influenced in any way by GG, however subtly, than I disagree with you.


>Regarding the nut and genius remark. As I said, the term genius I
>would tend to reserve for Mozart. Gould - who tried to destroy Mozart
>(some genius!) - was simply a piano-player. The rest is hype.

Genius cannot be defined in such a way that it is clear to all where talent
ends and genius begins.

Genius is not a distinction soley for the creative. I see no reason why a
recreative instrumentalist can't be a genius too.

Mozart cannot be detroyed, by Gould or anyone else. He's dead. His music cannot
be detroyed either. It's out there for any and all to enjoy in any manner they
choose, including parody and ridicule. It's not like GG bought the rights to
every Mozart score in the world and tried to destoy them so the rest of the
world could never enjoy Mozart again.

Who's to say that Mozart would not have been amused, perhaps even intrigued by
Gould's playing of his music?

Genius is in the eyes and ears of the beholder.


>Guerrero did NOT teach Gould the way to play Bach. I know many of his
>pupils, none of whom play Bach remotely like GG. Gould, who, by the
>way, renounced Guerrero as a teacher,  eithe learned it on his own, or
>imitated elements of Tureck's Bach. The problem is, of course, that he
>did it without much in the way of musicality; it is just quirky and
>sensationalist.

I did not say Guerrero taught Gould the way to play Bach. I'm saying that GG's
approach to the keyboard was shaped by Guerrero in such a way that made it
natural for GG to develop the kind of playing he used when playing Bach. Nobody
is without influence, I don't care if GG did renounce Guerrero as a teacher. To
pretend, or imply that simply because GG renounced Guerrero's teaching that he
was forever wiped clean of any influence Guerrero ever had on him is absurd.
The human mind simply doesn't work that way. One cannot simply wipe away all
previous influences, no matter how hard one tries.

You don't like GG, and that's fine. However, there's no need to exaggerate GG's
faults, as you perceive them, to justify your not liking him. Isn't enough to
say that GG is not for you, and leave it at that?

Paul

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/20/03 4:35 PM
In article <46eb3807.03071...@posting.google.com>,
vlad...@vermontel.net says...
>
>Samir Golescu <gol...@uiuc.edu> wrote in message  
>> As regards the by now famous joke, I thought it was a very funny -- and
>> musically suggestive -- joke used perhaps at the wrong moment. On the
>> other hand, it was the only moment that the joke as it was could be made
>> at all! So I don't know. People's balance between tolerance for humor and
>> capacity of being outraged is never quantifiable.
>
>Partly because their tolerance & capacity vary according to
>circumstances.  Take you for example, Samir.  You are terribly strict
>about people using your name, even neutrally, in posting headers.  But
>let someone else two days earlier get called a "fucking moron" in a
>header, and you're silent as a mouse.
>
>- Phil Caron

And now it's time for a little hypocrisy check, Phil. Just a couple of postings
down from here, Mr. Zwar offered the innocent suggestion that he did not think I
meant anything malicious by my post--as indeed I did not.

Mr. Deacon replied, calling him "Kind-hearted, but hardly perceptive." That,
Phil, is a straight-as-an-arrow, unsolicited, unprovoked, direct personal insult
to the person in question about which I think there can be little dispute as to
"interpretation" or "motivation."

Where were you? Or does Mr. Zwar not matter because: (a) he is not dead, (b) he
is not an artist and therefore not worthy of your notice, or (c) he happens to
disagree with you?

Dave Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported JohnGavin 7/20/03 5:36 PM
deac...@yahoo.com wrote in message news:<1qllhvs683u0ftih4s4vl59sfu34kmtb1a@4ax.com>...

> On 20 Jul 2003 16:46:02 GMT, "Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net
> are forged)" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >deac...@yahoo.com appears to have caused the following letters to be
> >typed in news:jfblhv4d5d7jm322e6o75ukkonslmhk2de@4ax.com:
> >
> >> 3. The sales of Gould's Goldbergs is not really relevant, in my opinion,
> >> to the nature of his influence. Please name ONE pianist who has dared to
> >> imitate this "nut", or "genius", whichever term you prefer.
> >
> >Oh, sheesh, practically any of the current crowd who ape that seccississimo
> >style of playing.  You want a name?  OK, then, Mustonen.
>
> Isn't he the one who continually breaks strings? Gould never banged
> the piano like Mustonen. In any event, I think Mustonen is giving up
> the piano for the baton. What a relief!
>
> Any other candidates? Koroliov, unlikely, Hewitt, not at all, Schiff,
> I think not, too limp.
>
> Tom Deacon

First of all I want to say to Tom Deacon, I'm sorry if it appears that
I'm giving you a hard time - nothing personal intended at all - and I
enjoy your posts and appreciate reading your positive take of Tureck.


To answer some points though - I'm aware that VAI has re-issued some
Tureck.  As far as pianists who openly claim a profound influence from
Gould, there's Weissenberg and Pogorelich.  By the way I DO hear
Gould's influence on Koroliov.  Perhaps Gould's influence can be felt
nowhere more strongly than in Russia!  Yes, it's absolutely true.  His
tour there made a profound impression.

I'm not saying that Rosalyn Tureck was a hack, she was a tireless
worker and her recordings (at least the earlier ones) command respect,
but I just don't think she possessed much originality or spontaniety -
everything was meticulously studied (I guess this is the core reason
for my not caring much for her art).  Her public persona seemed as
studied as her playing.

Yes, I know Gould claimed being inspired by Tureck, but not too many
pianists were specializing in Bach before Gould came on the scene(i.e.
who recorded the Goldbergs on piano before Gould in 55?).

P.S. - I've always been very curious about one thing - how well does
Ms. Tureck play the Bach-Busoni Chaconne?  Does she blow Michelangeli
away?  :)

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/20/03 6:36 PM
On 20 Jul 2003 22:53:39 GMT, paulya...@aol.com (PaulYarishRPT)
wrote:

>
>I did not say Guerrero taught Gould the way to play Bach. I'm saying that GG's
>approach to the keyboard was shaped by Guerrero in such a way that made it
>natural for GG to develop the kind of playing he used when playing Bach.
>
>Paul


Perhaps you can be more specific.

What "approach to the keyboard". specifically are you referring to?

And how, in fact, did he impart this to GG and not to his other
students?

Tom Deacon.

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/20/03 6:41 PM
On 20 Jul 2003 17:36:54 -0700, dag...@comcast.net (John Gavin) wrote:

>deac...@yahoo.com wrote in message news:<1qllhvs683u0ftih4s4vl59sfu34kmtb1a@4ax.com>...
>> On 20 Jul 2003 16:46:02 GMT, "Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net
>> are forged)" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> >deac...@yahoo.com appears to have caused the following letters to be
>> >typed in news:jfblhv4d5d7jm322e6o75ukkonslmhk2de@4ax.com:

>I'm not saying that Rosalyn Tureck was a hack, she was a tireless


>worker and her recordings (at least the earlier ones) command respect,
>but I just don't think she possessed much originality or spontaniety -
>everything was meticulously studied (I guess this is the core reason
>for my not caring much for her art).  Her public persona seemed as
>studied as her playing.

I have enormous admiration for such attention to detail. Study usually
ends up with a concentration on details. Rachmaninoff was the most
"studied" pianist of his generation. Hofmann the most "unstudied". It
is for you to judge which you prefer, of course. I will always choose
Rachmaninoff over Hofmann any day, regardless of the studied and
calculated nature of his playing. The point is that he sounded
spontaneous. As did Rosaly Tureck. Again I point to the B flat Partita
from 1956. This is a miracle of study and yet as natural sounding as
anything Hofmann ever recorded.


>
>Yes, I know Gould claimed being inspired by Tureck, but not too many
>pianists were specializing in Bach before Gould came on the scene(i.e.
>who recorded the Goldbergs on piano before Gould in 55?).

Would that not then make Tureck rather "original" rather than simply
"studied"?


Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Richard Schultz 7/20/03 10:10 PM
In article <68721360.0...@drn.newsguy.com>, David Hurwitz <David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:

:>Perhaps you should keep this statement in mind the next time that someone


:>makes a joke at *your* expense.
 
: I'll try.

Let's hope that you succeed this time.

-----
Richard Schultz                              sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
 "an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Dan Koren 7/20/03 10:10 PM
"John Gavin" <dag...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:77a67936.0307201636.57745f65@posting.google.com...

>
> P.S. - I've always been very curious about one
> thing - how well does Ms. Tureck play the Bach-
> Busoni Chaconne?  Does she blow Michelangeli
> away?  :)


Your guess is as good as mine -- or Cziffra's.


dk


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Dan Koren 7/20/03 10:22 PM
<deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:qngmhvs664of41u91hoprvbhcggfnhdpb0@4ax.com...

>
> I have enormous admiration for such attention to detail.


But do you have any admiration for anything else? The
choice of artists in the GGBB suggests you don't.

Otherwise, how could someone as insipid as Ingrid Haebler
have possibly made her way into the collection?


> Study usually ends up with a concentration on details.


Well, it rather depends on the student. Wouldn't you
think so?


> Rachmaninoff was the most "studied" pianist of his
> generation.


And yet he doesn't sound studied at all. The greatest
art is to make art disappear. SR does that very well
indeed.


> Hofmann the most "unstudied".


And he sounds just so studied... See, art is not what
one thinks it might be.


> It is for you to judge which you prefer, of course.


As long as we choose from the GGBB, right? No Sanchez,
Levy or Jonas -- or any pianists you do not approve of?


> I will always choose Rachmaninoff over Hofmann any day,
> regardless of the studied and calculated nature of his
> playing. The point is that he sounded spontaneous.


Indeed.


> As did Rosaly Tureck. Again I point to the B flat Partita
> from 1956. This is a miracle of study and yet as natural
> sounding as anything Hofmann ever recorded.


Big deal.

As you have admitted yourself, it is a very small scaled
performance. And who needs that?


dk


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Julien Pierre 7/20/03 11:07 PM
Tom,

As I'm learning to play some of the Goldberg variations on the piano, I
was listening to one of Ms Tureck's earlier (1957) Goldberg variations
recordings at home close to the time of her death last thursday night. I
was actually looking for my set of her most recent DG Goldbergs, but
could only find the empty case for it. That 2-disc DG Goldberg had
prompted me to get a CD changer in my car last year. I don't know how I
misplaced it.

Tonight, I did a Google search on her, seeking a replacement for the
missing discs, and the first hit that I got was
http://www.connectedglobe.com/tbrf/tureck.html . This is how I learned
of her death.

This is very saddening news. While I did not have the honor of knowing
her personally, I truly appreciated her recordings. The fact that she
used moderate tempos allowed for a unique feel, articulation and
expressivity, that are not only beautiful and very enjoyable to listen
to, but are also invaluable to anyone studying Bach's music .

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Wayne Reimer 7/20/03 11:50 PM
> In article <68703696.0...@drn.newsguy.com>, David_...@newsguy.com says...
> In article <MPG.1983e65b2...@news.sf.sbcglobal.net>, Wayne says...
> >
<...>
>
> In music and the arts people are always having strong reactions to something or
> another; one type is not more important than any other. It's simply in the
> nature of things. People having strong emotional reactions who can't handle

> those who are NOT having such reactions, or who cannot bear to see contrary
> opinions in a time of difficulty, should nurse their feelings elsewhere.

Who said anyone was not handling their feelings?  Having them and expressing
them is not a failure to cope.  Why go elsewhere?  You're not the moderator of
the group.  If you think we're too sensitive for your taste, why don't YOU go
elsewhere.  I don't see any real reason why anyone should respect your reaction
more than you respect anyone else's, if you get my drift.

> Once
> again you confuse a joke concerning an artist's legacy with having "no respect"
> for the person,

The confusion is yours.  In your eagerness to trash out anyone who took
exception to your joke, you're not reading carefully.  I specifically meant
that having no respect for the dead person was not the issue - my writing may
not be a model of clarity, but it wasn't all that opaque, either.

> and "civility," also encompasses tolerance for differing
> opinions, remarks made in (perceived) questionable taste, differences in one's
> definition of humor, and everything in between--and if such tolerance flies out
> the window in every moment of emotional distress, then the term has no meaning
> whatsoever.

I'm not certain you're the one who gets to decide the nature of civility; it
seems unlikely, given your low scores in that department.  At any rate, it's
interesting to watch your attempt to become a victim in this situation.

>
> Of all of the comments in this thread, my original one remains the least
> "uncivil" coming from those who claim to dislike Ms. Turek (because I never
> claim to dislike her at all--I have been assigned that role by those with an
> interest in seeing it that way), and certainly it is far more civil than the
> comments of those who object to it.

You're not making much sense here, but I *think* your reading a lot more into
my post than I wrote; I cant' speak for the others.  It makes me no difference
whether you did or didn't like Tureck or her playing; your post was offensive
all on its own, without knowing your feelings about her.  You don't know my
feelings about her or her playing, either, for that matter.  

>  So your concern for "civility" is misplaced
> in this context.

It's not misplaced.  There's a lot of tolerance and also a lot of intolerance
in this group, and I'll readily admit that I have contributed my share to the
everyday incivility that goes on here, maybe more than my share.  That doesn't
change how I see this particular issue.  It's civil (and, if you can't deal
with that concept, besides being civil, it's just plain good sense unless you
are deliberately trying to appear as a churlish lout - one never knows) to
restrain yourself from jumping in with a joke at the expense of the dead person
as the very first post appended to a death notice of a musician.

You are right in one way, though: my concern with civility was misplaced, and
it always would be so, in the context of a thread in which you were a major
participant.  They never seem to stay civil for long.  Odd...

wr

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Wayne Reimer 7/21/03 12:36 AM
> In article <3f1b0fc3$1...@news.meer.net>, dank...@yahoo.com says...

> "Richard Schultz" <sch...@mail.biu.ack.il> wrote in message
> news:bfe4qf$s1e$2@news.iucc.ac.il...
> > In article <68703696.0...@drn.newsguy.com>, David Hurwitz

> <David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> >
> > : People having strong emotional reactions who can't handle
> > : those who are NOT having such reactions, or who cannot bear
> > : to see contrary opinions in a time of difficulty, should
> > : nurse their feelings elsewhere.
> >
> > Perhaps you should keep this statement in mind the next time
> > that someone makes a joke at *your* expense.
> >
> Keep in mind however that David H. is not an artist -- just a
> reviewer! ;-)
>
> dk

I thought he once had something to do with pounding away at something in a
rhythmic fashion.  With sticks.  Possibly with artistry.  At the rear of an
orchestra.  ;-0

wr

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported ulvi 7/21/03 12:43 AM
deac...@yahoo.com wrote in
news:mbjihvkrbvgfngl92nmq0segk1j2lktcp5@4ax.com:

> On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 07:12:17 GMT, "Thomas Wood"
> <woo...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>Phil Garon <pga...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
>>news:613e3493.0307180753.51fed981@posting.google.com...
>>> According to a message posted to Dave Lampson's music list:
>>>
>>> "Rosalyn Tureck died at approximately 10:40 PM on July 17, 2003, at
>>> her home in Riverdale, Bronx, New York, at the age of 88."
>>
>>This is sad fom a human point of view. However, from an artistic point
>>point of view, she was the nakedess of unclothed Empresses. Now, in
>>Elysium, Bach can whack her leaden knuckles.
>>
>>Tom Wood
>>
> Two things:
>
> First: You boviously believe in an afterlife. Fool!
>
> Second: you believe in God! Fool!
>
> Third: You believe that Bach would strike someone. Fool again!

Actually, IIRC Bach did strike someone at least once; a duel was
narrowly avoided. That was in his younger days; spending time in jail
later on (for an unrelated offense) may have taught him to control
his outbursts in his remaining years.

OTOH, it is hard to believe that Bach would have had anything but
gratitude for any artist who played his music, given how convinced
he was that his music would not last beyond his generation.

OK, may be he would make an exception for Stokowski...

Ulvi

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported JohnGavin 7/21/03 12:45 AM
deac...@yahoo.com wrote in message news:<qngmhvs664of41u91hoprvbhcggfnhdpb0@4ax.com>...

> On 20 Jul 2003 17:36:54 -0700, dag...@comcast.net (John Gavin) wrote:
>
> >deac...@yahoo.com wrote in message news:<1qllhvs683u0ftih4s4vl59sfu34kmtb1a@4ax.com>...
> >> On 20 Jul 2003 16:46:02 GMT, "Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net
> >> are forged)" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >deac...@yahoo.com appears to have caused the following letters to be
> >> >typed in news:jfblhv4d5d7jm322e6o75ukkonslmhk2de@4ax.com:
>  
>
> I have enormous admiration for such attention to detail. Study usually
> ends up with a concentration on details. Rachmaninoff was the most
> "studied" pianist of his generation. Hofmann the most "unstudied". It
> is for you to judge which you prefer, of course. I will always choose
> Rachmaninoff over Hofmann any day,

Actually, so do I, but for goodness' sake, you don't want to compare
Tureck to Rachmaninoff do you?  Rachmaninoff's playing, no matter how
studied the preparation, was the epitome of spontaneity.  To my ears,
he sounds almost like a great jazz pianist, he recreated each
composition as if he were composing it himself.

 regardless of the studied and
> calculated nature of his playing. The point is that he sounded
> spontaneous. As did Rosaly Tureck. Again I point to the B flat Partita
> from 1956. This is a miracle of study and yet as natural sounding as
> anything Hofmann ever recorded.

If I had to compare Tureck to any other pianist it would be Lili
Kraus.  They both had the same narrow and studied quzality.  What
basically dooms both ladies to oblivion IMO is probably the fact that
they "specialized" in one or two composers.  I'd rather hear Bach or
Mozart from someone who plays Chopin and Rachmaninoff beautifully and
masterfully.


> >
> >Yes, I know Gould claimed being inspired by Tureck, but not too many
> >pianists were specializing in Bach before Gould came on the scene(i.e.
> >who recorded the Goldbergs on piano before Gould in 55?).
>
As I'm sure you know, Gould could sit at the piano and play by memory
the tone poems of Richard Strauss.  His recorded repertoire included
Gibbons, Beethoven, Scriabin, Prokofiev, Hetu, Bizet, Grieg,
Schoenberg etc.  Gould's talent (not to mention the great
Rachmaninoff's) was simply of a far higher order and great scope.


> Would that not then make Tureck rather "original" rather than simply
> "studied"?
>
 Not at all.  You asked which pianists were influenced by Gould.  I
clearly hear his influence in Weissenberg, Koroliov and Pogorelich, to
name just three.  Now, I'll ask you - which pianists were CLEARLY
influenced by Tureck?

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported ulvi 7/21/03 1:17 AM
na...@uiuc.edu (na...@uiuc.edu) wrote in
news:6e7253b3.0307190910.493b4b0c@posting.google.com:

> The recordings of hers that I've heard are wonderful. If you can get
> past the didactic manner her perceptions are amazing and, to me,
> utterly compelling.

I don't find all of recordings wonderful by any means. Unquestionably
her tempo choices were far too often on the extreme slow side regardless
of what the music requires. Some of the time this approach works,
and the results often have an intensity matched only by Gould and
Richter in their best Bach. At other times, "catatonic" seems an apt
description. I also cannot avoid the nagging suspicion
that her tempi were so slow because her technique wasn't up to
playing the fast movements in tempo. True or not, this impression
is unavoidable to my ears. Also, the philosophizing she indulged
in appears to have been BS at best, so I assidiously avoid any contact
with it (don't read the liner notes...)

But I will always cherish her best work, no matter how low her
worst (or even average) work could get...

Ulvi

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Wayne Reimer 7/21/03 1:36 AM
> In article <51SdnejM4LF...@comcast.com>, sd...@comcast.net says...

>
> "Wayne Reimer" <wr...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1983e65b224b67189897a1@news.sf.sbcglobal.net...
> > >
> > Having some consideration for the feelings of those who might be
> having some
> > stong emotional reaction to the death and therefore restraining
> impulses for
> > cheap jokes at the expense of the deceased is not hypocrisy, even if
> you have
> > no respect for the dead person.  It's civility.
>
> Let's assume for present purposes that The Joke was "at her expense"
> (the only rule David H broke as far as I can tell is the rmcr rule that
> when a musician dies, for at least a week one may say nothing other than
> that his/her death is of incalculable loss to
> music/civilization/humanity) and that those who have "some strong
> emotional reaction to" her death are nevertheless reading this
> newsgroup, your post raises some interesting questions about the extent
> of this "civility."  If the dispositive factor is sensitivity to the
> feelings of those who care about the musician in question on a personal
> (or indeed any other) way, why should this deference be limited to the
> relatives of musicians who are recently dead?

I wasn't thinking in terms of relatives at all.  For example, I didn't know Lou
Harrison - only met him once - and he wasn't a relative, but if the very first
post appended to his death notice here in rmcr was some disparaging joke about
his music, it would have hit me harder and more painfully than the usual posts
from folks who don't like his music.  That's because I felt that Lou's death
was a loss to me personally.  Same is true for Lutoslawski and Berio.  These
people were important to me, and when they died, I was in no mood for some
grandstanding twit having a laugh at them be the very first comment on their
death that I'd see.

Proximity to the beginning of the thread counts; the feelings are more raw when
there haven't been a lot of posts regarding the dead person.  Further down a
thread it makes less difference, because the intensity is somewhat dissipated.  

Is it really that much to ask that people get a clue and lay off for a bit when
it comes to the announcement of some musician's death?  I won't even ask the
same for people in general, just musicians and people in the business.

> No-one complains *on
> these grounds* when musicians get trashed, as they regularly do around
> here; no complained on these grounds the last time Barbirolli's Mahler 5
> was trashed or when the complaint was made that Solti can't count or
> when someone quipped for the nth time that Gould was a robot; and Deacon
> evidently wasn't concerned, when he expressed earlier in this thread the
> hope that Mustonen stops playing the piano, with the feelings of members
> of Mustonen's family who may stumble across his comments.
>

There's a teensy bit of difference for many, possibly most, of us in how we
deal with this stuff in the first hours after a person dies and the rest of
everyday life.  Call me sentimental, but it actually makes a difference to me
if I hear something gratuitously negative about a person I care about or their
work while I'm trying to process the fact of their very recent death and how I
would react the rest of the time.  

> By the way, I hope none of those who were so incensed by The Joke read
> Rodney Milnes' obituary for Karajan in The Spectator, which ended with a
> sentence that read (more-or-less; I forget the precise words he used):
> "Ultimately, Karajan was a bad man and a bad musician and the world is a
> better place without him."  Should he not have said it?  Not said it at
> all?  Not said it *then*?
>
Should not have said it then, there.  And one of Karajan's relatives or
admirers should have tracked sweet Rodney down and done something suitably
brutal to him, like amputate his wretched tongue (not really, but still...).  
BTW, I agree with his assessment of Karajan, but that's not the point.

wr

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported HT 7/21/03 2:44 AM

"John Gavin" <dag...@comcast.net> schreef in bericht
news:77a67936.0307202345.14a8bbb7@posting.google.com...

> If I had to compare Tureck to any other pianist it would be Lili
> Kraus.  They both had the same narrow and studied quzality.  What
> basically dooms both ladies to oblivion IMO is probably the fact that
> they "specialized" in one or two composers.  I'd rather hear Bach or
> Mozart from someone who plays Chopin and Rachmaninoff beautifully and
> masterfully.

Schnabel was and still is a great pianist
although he did not play Chopin ...

Tureck reminds me of Haebler. There is
nothing wrong with the two ladies. They
were great in the fifties.

On the other hand Gould's interpretation
of the Goldberg was a major event, as
much as Lipatti's Chopin sonata had been
and Weissenberg's Petrouchka would
become.

Henk

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported REG 7/21/03 3:40 AM
Well, you go from Miss Manners to gauliter rather quickly, don't you. It's
not appropriate for the press to make a disparaging comment about a
world-figure who was in fact a bad man, after his death - that kind of
approach would have pleased Fluffy, I'm sure. Your response, even tongue in
cheek (or amputated) is far worse.

"Wayne Reimer" <wr...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1985457fc8fd16b69897a5@news.sf.sbcglobal.net...

>> > By the way, I hope none of those who were so incensed by The Joke read
> > Rodney Milnes' obituary for Karajan in The Spectator, which ended with a
> > sentence that read (more-or-less; I forget the precise words he used):
> > "Ultimately, Karajan was a bad man and a bad musician and the world is a
> > better place without him."  Should he not have said it?  Not said it at
> > all?  Not said it *then*?
> >
> Should not have said it then, there.  And one of Karajan's relatives or
> admirers should have tracked sweet Rodney down and done something suitably
> brutal to him, like amputate his wretched tongue (not really, but
still...).
> BTW, I agree with his assessment of Karajan, but that's not the point.
>
> wr
>


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Dan Koren 7/21/03 4:09 AM
"John Gavin" <dag...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:77a67936.0307202345.14a8bbb7@posting.google.com...

>
> Not at all.  You asked which pianists were influenced
> by Gould. I clearly hear his influence in Weissenberg,
> Koroliov and Pogorelich, to name just three.


Also, to various degrees, Feltsman, Schepkin, Gavrilov,
Pletnev, Martins, Loussier.


> Now, I'll ask you - which pianists were CLEARLY
> influenced by Tureck?


Clearly, Tom Deacon.


dk


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Norman M. Schwartz 7/21/03 5:08 AM
Isn't it par for the course for a music critic to come up with an outrageous
statement in attempt of  gaining some type of recognition or immortality? It
seems to me that many here are assisting this one.


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/21/03 6:05 AM
>
>You are right in one way, though: my concern with civility was misplaced, and
>it always would be so, in the context of a thread in which you were a major
>participant.  They never seem to stay civil for long.  Odd...
>
>wr

You talk "civility" out of one side of your mouth, while indulging yourself as
you please otherwise, by your own admission (and example). The fundamental
hypocrisy at the root of your argument is that fact that you take a wholly
relativistic notion of the term ("civility" = not posting a joke, however mildly
framed, on the occasion of someone's death as the first reply in the thread
announcing that death--now there's an interesting definition of the term!) and
use it as an excuse to launch your own attack the 'civility' of which strikes me
as far more questionable than my original posting--as these things always are.
Because like it or not, my remark was a legitimate response to the reporting of
an event (and at least topical with respect to the subject of the thread in
question) while yours is simply the usual unprovoked personal attack on someone
whose opinion you happen to dislike for reasons of your own invention.

At worst you are simply a hypocrite, at best two wrongs don't make a right.
Moreover, given that more than a few people here understood the joke perfectly
well and took no offense at all, the "civil" thing to do, in the truest sense of
the word, would have been to note that it obviously was not inherently
offensive, and so despite the fact that some will invariably interpret it that
way, the best course would be simply to give the poster the benefit of the doubt
and not assume any malicious intent even though you might find the remark in
questionable taste. THAT, my friend, is "civility." Now go practice what you
pretend to preach.

Dave Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Richard Schultz 7/21/03 6:10 AM
In article <68791415.0...@drn.newsguy.com>, David Hurwitz <David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:

: . . .while yours is simply the usual unprovoked personal attack on someone


: whose opinion you happen to dislike for reasons of your own invention.

I don't understand -- since you are fond of engaging in unprovoked personal
attacks, why should it bother you when someone else does the same?

-----
Richard Schultz                              sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
 "an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/21/03 6:34 AM
On 21 Jul 2003 00:45:36 -0700, dag...@comcast.net (John Gavin) wrote:

>deac...@yahoo.com wrote in message news:<qngmhvs664of41u91hoprvbhcggfnhdpb0@4ax.com>...
>> On 20 Jul 2003 17:36:54 -0700, dag...@comcast.net (John Gavin) wrote:
>>
>> >deac...@yahoo.com wrote in message news:<1qllhvs683u0ftih4s4vl59sfu34kmtb1a@4ax.com>...
>> >> On 20 Jul 2003 16:46:02 GMT, "Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net
>> >> are forged)" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >deac...@yahoo.com appears to have caused the following letters to be
>> >> >typed in news:jfblhv4d5d7jm322e6o75ukkonslmhk2de@4ax.com:
>>  
>>
>> I have enormous admiration for such attention to detail. Study usually
>> ends up with a concentration on details. Rachmaninoff was the most
>> "studied" pianist of his generation. Hofmann the most "unstudied". It
>> is for you to judge which you prefer, of course. I will always choose
>> Rachmaninoff over Hofmann any day,
>
>Actually, so do I, but for goodness' sake, you don't want to compare
>Tureck to Rachmaninoff do you?  Rachmaninoff's playing, no matter how
>studied the preparation, was the epitome of spontaneity.  To my ears,
>he sounds almost like a great jazz pianist, he recreated each
>composition as if he were composing it himself.
>
> regardless of the studied and
>> calculated nature of his playing. The point is that he sounded
>> spontaneous. As did Rosaly Tureck. Again I point to the B flat Partita
>> from 1956. This is a miracle of study and yet as natural sounding as
>> anything Hofmann ever recorded.
>
>If I had to compare Tureck to any other pianist it would be Lili
>Kraus.  They both had the same narrow and studied quzality.  What
>basically dooms both ladies to oblivion IMO is probably the fact that
>they "specialized" in one or two composers.  I'd rather hear Bach or
>Mozart from someone who plays Chopin and Rachmaninoff beautifully and
>masterfully.
>> >
>> >Yes, I know Gould claimed being inspired by Tureck, but not too many
>> >pianists were specializing in Bach before Gould came on the scene(i.e.
>> >who recorded the Goldbergs on piano before Gould in 55?).
>>
>As I'm sure you know, Gould could sit at the piano and play by memory
>the tone poems of Richard Strauss.  His recorded repertoire included
>Gibbons, Beethoven, Scriabin, Prokofiev, Hetu, Bizet, Grieg,
>Schoenberg etc.  Gould's talent (not to mention the great
>Rachmaninoff's) was simply of a far higher order and great scope.
>
>
>> Would that not then make Tureck rather "original" rather than simply
>> "studied"?
>>
> Not at all.  You asked which pianists were influenced by Gould.  I
>clearly hear his influence in Weissenberg, Koroliov and Pogorelich, to
>name just three.  Now, I'll ask you - which pianists were CLEARLY
>influenced by Tureck?


On his own admission: Glenn Gould. The rest follow as the night the
day.

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/21/03 6:35 AM
In article <rJQSa.65366$0v4.4...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, "Norman
says...

>
>Isn't it par for the course for a music critic to come up with an outrageous
>statement in attempt of  gaining some type of recognition or immortality? It
>seems to me that many here are assisting this one.
>
>

OK, here we go again. My professional work speaks for itself in its proper
place. I am here as a private citizen. I know that this doesn't make any
difference to those who wish to use my profession as a means of attacking me, so
maybe you will understand this: Please don't flatter yourself by suggesting that
I regard ANYTHING I do here as a significant means of gaining either
"recognition" or "immortality." Talk about jokes!

Dave Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/21/03 6:36 AM
On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 11:44:37 +0200, "Henk van Tuijl"
<hvt...@xs4all.nl> wrote:

>
>"John Gavin" <dag...@comcast.net> schreef in bericht
>news:77a67936.0307202345.14a8bbb7@posting.google.com...
>
>> If I had to compare Tureck to any other pianist it would be Lili
>> Kraus.  They both had the same narrow and studied quzality.  What
>> basically dooms both ladies to oblivion IMO is probably the fact that
>> they "specialized" in one or two composers.  I'd rather hear Bach or
>> Mozart from someone who plays Chopin and Rachmaninoff beautifully and
>> masterfully.
>
>Schnabel was and still is a great pianist
>although he did not play Chopin ...
>
>Tureck reminds me of Haebler. There is
>nothing wrong with the two ladies. They
>were great in the fifties.
>
>On the other hand Gould's interpretation
>of the Goldberg was a major event, as
>much as Lipatti's Chopin sonata had been
>and Weissenberg's Petrouchka would
>become.
>
>Henk
>
>
>
>
Correct me if I am wrong, Henk. But I detect a distinct anti-feminist
bias in yous statements.

Incidentally, Weissenberg told me himself that he was principally
influenced by RT. He admired her enormously and was a dear friend.

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported PaulYarishRPT 7/21/03 6:38 AM
>Perhaps you can be more specific.
>
>What "approach to the keyboard". specifically are you referring to?

Asking for specifics is reasonable, but I cannot give them to you, for the
simply reason that it's been years since I've heard the playing of Guerrero and
I no longer own any of his recordings. All I can say is that when I did last
listen to Guerrero's playing, in the company of a friend who is also very
familiar with GG's playing, it was almost instantly obvious to both of us where
GG had picked up certain traits that characterize his playing, most notably his
dry, non-legato touch, even in passages that would normally seem to call for
legato. However, this is not to imply that Guerrero sounded like GG, anymore
that GG sounded like Guerrero. There were simply similarities; pretty obvious
similarities, but that's all.

>And how, in fact, did he impart this to GG and not to his other
>students?

Every student walks away from a teacher with something different. I learned a
great deal from my teacher, but my playing could never be mistaken for his, nor
do I sound like any of his other students, as far as I know, yet my playing has
traits that could only have come from him. My teacher was a student of Leon
Fleisher. My teacher does not sound like Leon Fleisher, nor does he sound like
any of Fleisher's other students, yet he credits Fleisher for making him into
the pianist he is today, and Fleisher's influence is obvious is certain aspects
of his playing. No matter how hard we may try, none of us will sound like our
teacher. We have our own personalities, ideas, hand-sizes, musculature, etc. We
learn from our teachers, and carry with us certain inherited traits of our
teachers, but in the end we make their ideas and their traits our own.

I don't see why it's so difficult to accept that GGs ideas were, in part,
shaped by Guerrero. Guerrero planted seeds in GG that grew in GGs unique soil
and climate conditions. But they were still Guerrero's seeds.

I think the same can be said of any student of any teacher.

Paul

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/21/03 7:20 AM
In article <bfgohb$qv2$1...@news.iucc.ac.il>, sch...@mail.biu.ack.il says...

>
>In article <68791415.0...@drn.newsguy.com>, David Hurwitz
><David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
>: . . .while yours is simply the usual unprovoked personal attack on someone
>: whose opinion you happen to dislike for reasons of your own invention.
>
>I don't understand -- since you are fond of engaging in unprovoked personal
>attacks, why should it bother you when someone else does the same?
>

No, I am not. I simply enjoyed attacking YOU on one occasion after months of the
same from you. So can the hypocrisy, for once, if you can.

Dave Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Simon Roberts 7/21/03 7:35 AM
In article <1vqnhv8uii5ec4uer59isph8rab7u4cei4@4ax.com>, deac...@yahoo.com
says...

>
>On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 11:44:37 +0200, "Henk van Tuijl"
><hvt...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>
>>
>>"John Gavin" <dag...@comcast.net> schreef in bericht
>>news:77a67936.0307202345.14a8bbb7@posting.google.com...
>>
>>> If I had to compare Tureck to any other pianist it would be Lili
>>> Kraus.  They both had the same narrow and studied quzality.  What
>>> basically dooms both ladies to oblivion IMO is probably the fact that
>>> they "specialized" in one or two composers.  I'd rather hear Bach or
>>> Mozart from someone who plays Chopin and Rachmaninoff beautifully and
>>> masterfully.
>>
>>Schnabel was and still is a great pianist
>>although he did not play Chopin ...
>>
>>Tureck reminds me of Haebler. There is
>>nothing wrong with the two ladies. They
>>were great in the fifties.
>>
>>On the other hand Gould's interpretation
>>of the Goldberg was a major event, as
>>much as Lipatti's Chopin sonata had been
>>and Weissenberg's Petrouchka would
>>become.
>>
>>Henk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>Correct me if I am wrong, Henk. But I detect a distinct anti-feminist
>bias in yous statements.

It's good to see that the unwarranted reading nefarious motives into others'
comments hasn't stopped yet in this thread.

Simon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/21/03 7:35 AM
In article <68795518.0...@drn.newsguy.com>, David says...

>
>In article <bfgohb$qv2$1...@news.iucc.ac.il>, sch...@mail.biu.ack.il says...
>>
>>In article <68791415.0...@drn.newsguy.com>, David Hurwitz
>><David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>>
>>: . . .while yours is simply the usual unprovoked personal attack on someone
>>: whose opinion you happen to dislike for reasons of your own invention.
>>
>>I don't understand -- since you are fond of engaging in unprovoked personal
>>attacks, why should it bother you when someone else does the same?
>>

And speaking of things that you don't understand, the point, Richard, is not
that such attacks bother me, but rather that they are most often perpetrated by
those who claim to be bothered by them and arrogate to themselves a superior
moral compass. Like you, for example, who have used the excuse of a single
"unprovoked" (and only by proximity--it was plenty provoked) attack on yourself
to justify your own "misconduct" on dozens of occasions in this regard ever
since. This is hypocrisy at its most paradigmatic.

Dave

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Norman M. Schwartz 7/21/03 7:35 AM

"David Hurwitz" <David_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:68793489.0000a82d.071@drn.newsguy.com...

Highly regarded and influential music critics make outrageous comments. My
observation could just as well be taken as a compliment, (e.g.. "Music that
stinks to the ear") Doesn't that which is done "here" (or anywhere) provide
insight into your way of thinking? Private citizen, or not, your "joke",
originated in your gray matter. You took the event of a musician's demise as
an opportunity to express your talent to bear on her manner of performance.
That you did so "here" or anywhere else is irrelevant. Whether or not it
happens to be significant to you is also irrelevant. It speaks about you as
a person, and doesn't add or subtract esteem from you highly and justly
accepted regard as a music critic.


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Richard Schultz 7/21/03 8:40 AM
In article <68795518.0...@drn.newsguy.com>, David Hurwitz <David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:
: In article <bfgohb$qv2$1...@news.iucc.ac.il>, sch...@mail.biu.ack.il says...

:>I don't understand -- since you are fond of engaging in unprovoked personal


:>attacks, why should it bother you when someone else does the same?
 
: No, I am not. I simply enjoyed attacking YOU on one occasion after
: months of the same from you. So can the hypocrisy, for once, if you can.

That is a lie.  The first personal attack you made on me was *not* after
"months of the same" -- it was during a period when you were hardly posting
at all, and was in response to a post that I had made to something that
Henry Fogel had written.  Interested parties are welcome to look at the
post of mine that can be found at <http://tinyurl.com/hkob> and decide
for themselves whether Mr. Hurwitz's subsequent attack was in any sense
provoked.  And Mr. Hurwitz can feel free to prove me wrong by citing the
"months" of personal attacks (funny how he claims never to take anything
on usenet personally) that predate the post in question.

-----
Richard Schultz                              sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"It is terrible to die of thirst in the ocean.  Do you have to salt your
truth so heavily that it does not even quench thirst any more?"

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Richard Schultz 7/21/03 8:40 AM
In article <68797015.0...@drn.newsguy.com>, David Hurwitz <David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:

: Like you, for example, who have used the excuse of a single
: "unprovoked" (and only by proximity--it was plenty provoked)

How exactly was it provoked?

: attack on yourself to justify your own "misconduct" on dozens of
: occasions in this regard ever since.

Two posts, two lies.  I have never used any of your behavior to justify
mine.  I have pointed out that your own behavior frequently deviates from
the behavior that you demand of others.

: This is hypocrisy at its most paradigmatic.

Your behavior most certainly is.  My pointing out the inconsistency between
what you demand of others and what you practice yourself is in no way
connected to the way I behave; nor is pointing out this inconsistency a
demand for a change in behavior.  It is merely pointing out to you the
beam in your eye.  And by that, I mean someone who makes fun of other
people's typos and yet cannot be bothered to spell correctly the name of the
artist whose work he is discussing.

-----
Richard Schultz                              sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
 "You go on playing Bach your way, and I'll go on playing him *his* way."
                                        -- Wanda Landowska

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Alain Dagher 7/21/03 8:51 AM
Phil Caron wrote:
> David Hurwitz <David_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message news:<68582019.0...@drn.newsguy.com>...
>
>>>>What misfortune was that?
>>>>
>>>
>>>On the one hand, someone dying (Tureck); on the other, someone dropping
>>>groceries (hypothetical example).  Your newsreader must be dropping posts.
>>>
>>>- Phil
>>>
>>
>>How is dying a misfortune?
>>
>
> Personally, I don't feel dying necessarily is a misfortune; the timing
> might be awkward, and the circumstances could be painful, but hey, we
> all do it.
>

You are all assuming that because dying happens to everyone it isn't a
misfortune?

ad

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Serge 7/21/03 9:10 AM
> On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 22:02:22 GMT, "Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> >And to my ears, one can hear Gould's influence
> >very clearly in the playing of Vladimir Feltsman,
> >Sergei Schepkin, Evgeny Korolev, Andrei Gavrilov
> >and many others. Imitation? No. Influence? Yes!

> >dk

deac...@yahoo.com wrote in message news:<107mhv0vtbtg3t64kdi32pehc672jhp4oo@4ax.com>...

> A nice distinction.
>
> However, I would be hard put to cite examples of such "influence" in
> the pianists you mention, with the exception of the obscure Russian
> whose work I do not know.

<snip>

> Tom Deacon


Dear Mr. Deacon:

The obscure Russian in question is following this thread with
considerable interest. :)

Regards,

Sergey Schepkin

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/21/03 9:35 AM
>
>Two posts, two lies.  I have never used any of your behavior to justify
>mine.  I have pointed out that your own behavior frequently deviates from
>the behavior that you demand of others.
>

Keep trying Richard. Perhaps the sky will turn green if you insist on it for
long enough.

Dave Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/21/03 9:35 AM
>That is a lie.  The first personal attack you made on me was *not* after
>"months of the same" -- it was during a period when you were hardly posting
>at all, and was in response to a post that I had made to something that
>Henry Fogel had written.  Interested parties are welcome to look at the
>post of mine that can be found at <http://tinyurl.com/hkob> and decide
>for themselves whether Mr. Hurwitz's subsequent attack was in any sense
>provoked.  And Mr. Hurwitz can feel free to prove me wrong by citing the
>"months" of personal attacks (funny how he claims never to take anything
>on usenet personally) that predate the post in question.
>

I don't especially care if anyone believes me or not. I know the truth of the
matter, and so do you, and frankly that's all that concerns me.

See ya.

Dave

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/21/03 9:50 AM
>> In article <rJQSa.65366$0v4.4...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>"Norman
>> says...
>> >
>> >Isn't it par for the course for a music critic to come up with an
>outrageous
>> >statement in attempt of  gaining some type of recognition or immortality?
>It
>> >seems to me that many here are assisting this one.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> OK, here we go again. My professional work speaks for itself in its proper
>> place. I am here as a private citizen. I know that this doesn't make any
>> difference to those who wish to use my profession as a means of attacking
>me, so
>> maybe you will understand this: Please don't flatter yourself by
>suggesting that
>> I regard ANYTHING I do here as a significant means of gaining either
>> "recognition" or "immortality." Talk about jokes!
>>
>
>Highly regarded and influential music critics make outrageous comments. My
>observation could just as well be taken as a compliment, (e.g.. "Music that
>stinks to the ear") Doesn't that which is done "here" (or anywhere) provide
>insight into your way of thinking?

Sure it does, and whether you meant is as a "compliment" (I think I can be
forgiven for assuming the chances of that were slender), isn't the point. It is
untrue that I make these statements as a means of achieving "recognition" or
"immortality" in my capacity as a music critic, or BECAUSE I am a music critic,
which is clearly what you suggested. I don't see how any such statements I may
make are any different from the outrageous statements everyone else makes around
here routinely, and I would not have them treated any differently.

If you are assuming that I want to be remembered for saying outrageous things in
my professional capacity, you are wrong. It is equally unlikely (I think it's
safe to say) that anything I say here will have any bearing on whether or not I
WILL be remembered professionally, outrageous or not. If I'm wrong, then I won't
care anyway. I'll be dead.

Dave Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Samir Golescu 7/21/03 10:14 AM

On Mon, 21 Jul 2003, ulvi wrote:

> I don't find all of recordings wonderful by any means. Unquestionably
> her tempo choices were far too often on the extreme slow side regardless
> of what the music requires. Some of the time this approach works,
> and the results often have an intensity matched only by Gould and
> Richter in their best Bach. At other times, "catatonic" seems an apt
> description. I also cannot avoid the nagging suspicion
> that her tempi were so slow because her technique wasn't up to
> playing the fast movements in tempo. True or not, this impression
> is unavoidable to my ears. Also, the philosophizing she indulged
> in appears to have been BS at best, so I assidiously avoid any contact
> with it (don't read the liner notes...)
>
> But I will always cherish her best work, no matter how low her
> worst (or even average) work could get...

Which do you find her best work to be among the things included in the
GPOC volumes, please?

regards,
SG

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported JohnGavin 7/21/03 10:48 AM
deac...@yahoo.com wrote in message news:<dtqnhvg9bvorhr2hbr3u780glps1i0888e@4ax.com>...

> On 21 Jul 2003 00:45:36 -0700, dag...@comcast.net (John Gavin) wrote:
>
> >deac...@yahoo.com wrote in message news:<qngmhvs664of41u91hoprvbhcggfnhdpb0@4ax.com>...
> >> On 20 Jul 2003 17:36:54 -0700, dag...@comcast.net (John Gavin) wrote:
> >>
> >> >deac...@yahoo.com wrote in message news:<1qllhvs683u0ftih4s4vl59sfu34kmtb1a@4ax.com>...
> >> >> On 20 Jul 2003 16:46:02 GMT, "Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net
> >> >> are forged)" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >deac...@yahoo.com appears to have caused the following letters to be
> >> >> >typed in news:jfblhv4d5d7jm322e6o75ukkonslmhk2de@4ax.com:
> >>  
> >>
> >> I have enormous admiration for such attention to detail. Study usually
> >> ends up with a concentration on details. Rachmaninoff was the most
> >> "studied" pianist of his generation. Hofmann the most "unstudied". It
> >> is for you to judge which you prefer, of course. I will always choose
> >> Rachmaninoff over Hofmann any day,
> >
> >Actually, so do I, but for goodness' sake, you don't want to compare
> >Tureck to Rachmaninoff do you?  Rachmaninoff's playing, no matter how
> >studied the preparation, was the epitome of spontaneity.  To my ears,
> >he sounds almost like a great jazz pianist, he recreated each
> >composition as if he were composing it himself.
> >
> > regardless of the studied and
> >> calculated nature of his playing. The point is that he sounded
> >> spontaneous. As did Rosaly Tureck. Again I point to the B flat Partita
> >> from 1956. This is a miracle of study and yet as natural sounding as
> >> anything Hofmann ever recorded.
> >
> >If I had to compare Tureck to any other pianist it would be Lili
> >Kraus.  They both had the same narrow and studied quzality.  What
> >basically dooms both ladies to oblivion IMO is probably the fact that
> >they "specialized" in one or two composers.  I'd rather hear Bach or
> >Mozart from someone who plays Chopin and Rachmaninoff beautifully and
> >masterfully.
> >> >
> >> >Yes, I know Gould claimed being inspired by Tureck, but not too many
> >> >pianists were specializing in Bach before Gould came on the scene(i.e.
> >> >who recorded the Goldbergs on piano before Gould in 55?).
> >>
> >As I'm sure you know, Gould could sit at the piano and play by memory
> >the tone poems of Richard Strauss.  His recorded repertoire included
> >Gibbons, Beethoven, Scriabin, Prokofiev, Hetu, Bizet, Grieg,
> >Schoenberg etc.  Gould's talent (not to mention the great
> >Rachmaninoff's) was simply of a far higher order and great scope.
> >
> >
> >> Would that not then make Tureck rather "original" rather than simply
> >> "studied"?
> >>
> > Not at all.  You asked which pianists were influenced by Gould.  I
> >clearly hear his influence in Weissenberg, Koroliov and Pogorelich, to
> >name just three.  Now, I'll ask you - which pianists were CLEARLY
> >influenced by Tureck?
>
>
> On his own admission: Glenn Gould. The rest follow as the night the
> day.
>
> Tom Deacon

GLENN GOULD on ROSALYN TURECK (Great Pianists Speak for Themselves by
Elyse Mach - page 104).

"And so my exposure to her recordings was not perhaps so much a
question of influence as of reinforcement; it was nice to know that
somebody else was working in essentially the same direction."

Sorry Tom, but this is not much of an endorsement of the profound
influence you seem to be claiming in your posts.  Gould seems to be
saying he wasn't influenced by her AT ALL, but that after hearing her
LATER ON she simply reconfirmed many of his own ALREADY FORMED IDEAS
-- I suspected as much.

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Steve Molino 7/21/03 11:32 AM
"Simon Roberts" <sd...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:bfgs5901jo4@drn.newsguy.com...

> In article <1vqnhv8uii5ec4uer59isph8rab7u4cei4@4ax.com>,
deac...@yahoo.com
> says...
> >
>
> It's good to see that the unwarranted reading nefarious motives into
others'
> comments hasn't stopped yet in this thread.
>
> Simon
>

I find a certain irony in a thread about Rosalyn Tureck growing to be one of
the longest ever.


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Simon Roberts 7/21/03 11:35 AM
In article <%ZTSa.104013$q42....@charlie.risq.qc.ca>, Alain says...

If the alternative is never dying but merely getting increasingly more frail and
gaga....

Simon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Steve Molino 7/21/03 11:35 AM
"Serge" <ssch...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:744b0bf1.0307210810.680618bf@posting.google.com...

>
> The obscure Russian in question is following this thread with
> considerable interest. :)
>
> Regards,
>
> Sergey Schepkin

Hey, I was just reading this thread bemused by it all, and playing your
Partita #2 recording when I ran across this.  Wonderful recording!


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported HT 7/21/03 11:58 AM

<deac...@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht
news:1vqnhv8uii5ec4uer59isph8rab7u4cei4@4ax.com...

> Correct me if I am wrong, Henk. But I detect a distinct anti-feminist
> bias in yous statements.

<g> ... but let's forget the irony for
a moment, Tom.

The "anti" is too strong. I am not
anti Tureck or Haebler.

They have both made an international
career and had their own - very loyal
- public. This is in itself a great
achievement.

Also, they were both great
professionals. I still remember those
who went to every concert Haebler
gave in the Netherlands and were
never disappointed by her.

Tureck does not play too slow - that
is the prerogative of some Russians -,
her Bach is too spiritual. The same
goes for Haebler's Mozart, and even
her Chopin.

I am an admirer of perfomers who try
to lead their public into the Platonic
world of forms but grow impatient
after some time - nothing happens over
there, as you know.

> Incidentally, Weissenberg told me himself that he was principally
> influenced by RT. He admired her enormously and was a dear friend.

I can understand why Weissenberg
says that he is influenced by Tureck's
Platonism. His control is remarkable,
his temperament even more.

Henk

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Alain Dagher 7/21/03 12:50 PM
Simon Roberts wrote:
> In article <%ZTSa.104013$q42....@charlie.risq.qc.ca>, Alain says...
>

>>


>>You are all assuming that because dying happens to everyone it isn't a
>>misfortune?
>
>
> If the alternative is never dying but merely getting increasingly more frail and
> gaga....
>

Then dying would be the lesser of two misfortunes.

ad


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/21/03 3:25 PM
On 21 Jul 2003 09:13:31 -0700, David Hurwitz
<David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:

It is quite obvious to this observer that you care very much.

Your perch as the Don Rickles of this newsgroup has come under attack.

Your defenses have been weak so far. Perhaps you can summon up
something more substantial, witth chapter and verse, of course, not
mere "words".

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/21/03 3:27 PM
On 21 Jul 2003 06:18:09 -0700, David Hurwitz
<David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:

>In article <rJQSa.65366$0v4.4...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, "Norman
>says...
>>
>>Isn't it par for the course for a music critic to come up with an outrageous
>>statement in attempt of  gaining some type of recognition or immortality? It
>>seems to me that many here are assisting this one.
>>
>>
>
>OK, here we go again. My professional work speaks for itself in its proper
>place. I am here as a private citizen.

Bull fucking shit you are.

You are here to PROMOTE your Internet rag.

Actually I don't think it works as people will have a hard time
crediting any intelligence to what you write elsewhere having read the
idiocies you perpretrate here.


I know that this doesn't make any
>difference to those who wish to use my profession as a means of attacking me, so
>maybe you will understand this: Please don't flatter yourself by suggesting that
>I regard ANYTHING I do here as a significant means of gaining either
>"recognition" or "immortality." Talk about jokes!

Me thinks the gentleman doth protest too much!

Tom Deacon


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/21/03 3:33 PM
On 21 Jul 2003 13:37:28 GMT, paulya...@aol.com (PaulYarishRPT)
wrote:

>>Perhaps you can be more specific.
>>
>>What "approach to the keyboard". specifically are you referring to?
>
>Asking for specifics is reasonable, but I cannot give them to you, for the
>simply reason that it's been years since I've heard the playing of Guerrero and
>I no longer own any of his recordings. All I can say is that when I did last
>listen to Guerrero's playing, in the company of a friend who is also very
>familiar with GG's playing, it was almost instantly obvious to both of us where
>GG had picked up certain traits that characterize his playing, most notably his
>dry, non-legato touch, even in passages that would normally seem to call for
>legato. However, this is not to imply that Guerrero sounded like GG, anymore
>that GG sounded like Guerrero. There were simply similarities; pretty obvious
>similarities, but that's all.
>
This is simply not good enough. Dozens of pianists have dry, nonlegato
playing both before and after Guerrero.


>
>>And how, in fact, did he impart this to GG and not to his other
>>students?
>
>Every student walks away from a teacher with something different.

Ah, but if Guerrero were the strong influence you imply, surely his
characteristic dry, non-legato touch would have been passed on to
others. I know a lot of them and don't hear it. Sorry.

 I learned a
>great deal from my teacher, but my playing could never be mistaken for his, nor
>do I sound like any of his other students, as far as I know, yet my playing has
>traits that could only have come from him. My teacher was a student of Leon
>Fleisher. My teacher does not sound like Leon Fleisher, nor does he sound like
>any of Fleisher's other students, yet he credits Fleisher for making him into
>the pianist he is today, and Fleisher's influence is obvious is certain aspects
>of his playing. No matter how hard we may try, none of us will sound like our
>teacher. We have our own personalities, ideas, hand-sizes, musculature, etc. We
>learn from our teachers, and carry with us certain inherited traits of our
>teachers, but in the end we make their ideas and their traits our own.
>
>I don't see why it's so difficult to accept that GGs ideas were, in part,
>shaped by Guerrero. Guerrero planted seeds in GG that grew in GGs unique soil
>and climate conditions. But they were still Guerrero's seeds.

So students are soil in which the teacher plants seeds. Ever try to
talk to Glenn Gould. Some soil! Nothing would grow there that he
didn't plant there himself by design and intention.


>
>I think the same can be said of any student of any teacher.

Not sure how that statement can be verified. Just too general.

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/21/03 3:38 PM

People should be VERY wary of taking anything Glenn Gould says at face
value. He also said that he learned nothing from his teacher.

I have not researched what he is said to have said to Elyse Mach, only
remembering his own words which I have heard and read, where he points
directly to RT as an influence.

Tureck herself recognized this influence and was rather sorry they had
never actually met and talked.

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/21/03 3:40 PM
On 21 Jul 2003 09:10:03 -0700, ssch...@aol.com (Serge) wrote:

>> On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 22:02:22 GMT, "Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>> >And to my ears, one can hear Gould's influence
>> >very clearly in the playing of Vladimir Feltsman,
>> >Sergei Schepkin, Evgeny Korolev, Andrei Gavrilov
>> >and many others. Imitation? No. Influence? Yes!
>
>> >dk
>
>deac...@yahoo.com wrote in message news:<107mhv0vtbtg3t64kdi32pehc672jhp4oo@4ax.com>...
>
>> A nice distinction.
>>
>> However, I would be hard put to cite examples of such "influence" in
>> the pianists you mention, with the exception of the obscure Russian
>> whose work I do not know.
>
><snip>
>
>> Tom Deacon
>
>
>Dear Mr. Deacon:
>
>The obscure Russian in question is following this thread with
>considerable interest. :)
>
>Regards,
>
>Sergey Schepkin

Well, Sergei, that is wonderful.

Now, perhaps you are planning to do something to make youserlf less
obscure? We are always anxious to hear another pianist, specially one
who plays Bach. But I am not sure I really want to hear one who claims
to have been influenced by GG, a very dangerous influence in my
opinion.

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/21/03 4:05 PM
>
>Your perch as the Don Rickles of this newsgroup has come under attack.
>
>Your defenses have been weak so far. Perhaps you can summon up
>something more substantial, witth chapter and verse, of course, not
>mere "words".
>
>Tom Deacon

Why? I don't have anything to prove to YOU, of all people, or Richard, or anyone
else for that matter. If you think for one minute that my "standing" in this
group is something that I need to "defend", then you really are stupid. Now go
away. You bore me.

Dave Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/21/03 4:10 PM
On 21 Jul 2003 09:26:37 -0700, David Hurwitz

<David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:
 It is equally unlikely (I think it's safe to say) that anything I say
here will have any bearing on whether or not I WILL be remembered
professionally, outrageous or not. If I'm wrong, then I won't care
anyway. I'll be dead.
>
>Dave Hurwitz

Well, just to be kind for a moment, we won't wish an early death on
you, so that we may make a tasteless remark.

However, you are far too restrictive in your statement. Go for the big
picture, Dave.

"It is equally unlikely (I think it's safe to say) that anything I say
ANYWHERE will have any bearuing on whether or not I will be remembered
professionally, outrageous or not."

Incidentally, you're not wrong, you're quite right.

I applaud such enormous modesty, coming as it does after such
egregious examples of immodesty.

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Dan Koren 7/21/03 4:29 PM
<deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:afsohv0mg58hfe3p00lu6beofr0dg9rmhm@4ax.com...

>
> Go for the big picture, Dave.
>


Not for the urtext?

Pontiff, you're changing philosophies at
an alarming rate....

dk


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Dan Koren 7/21/03 4:33 PM
<deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f3qohv0aqf2i7k41iek99d18lcb8jms4c4@4ax.com...
> On 21 Jul 2003 06:18:09 -0700, David Hurwitz

> <David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > OK, here we go again. My professional work speaks for
> > itself in its proper place. I am here as a private
> > citizen.
>
> Bull fucking shit you are.
>
> You are here to PROMOTE your Internet rag.
>

Bull fucking shit are you, Pontiff!

You are here to PROMOTE your Great
Gold and Brown (Shit) Box, no more
and no less.

Ingrid Haebler, Geza Panda, Rosalyn
Tureck and Rudolf Serkin as great
pianists!

ROTFL !!!

dk


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/21/03 4:35 PM
>
>Bull fucking shit you are.
>
>You are here to PROMOTE your Internet rag.
>

Ooh! He said a dirty word! I'm devastated! So now you affect the Dan Koren
approach, without Dan's humor or intelligence to back it up. Somehow I don't
think that's going to impress anyone around here, Tom. You should have thought
twice (or maybe once?) before attempting it. Talk about "protesting to much." My
goodness!

I am, once again, amazed by your ability to know everyone here better than they
know themselves. What you don't realize, Tom, is that we've been through this
before; I have a long history here that predates you, and you only make a fool
of yourself when, in your ignorance, you rehash tired old arguments, of which
that is probably the most tired of all.

And the most entertaining thing about this whole situation for me is that you
are so far beyond heeding sensible advice or seeing the situation for what it
truly is that you will never know just how ridiculous you sound.

Dave Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Dan Koren 7/21/03 4:50 PM
"David Hurwitz" <David_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:68828883.00012fcd.026@drn.newsguy.com...

> >
> > Bull fucking shit you are.
> >
> > You are here to PROMOTE your Internet rag.
>
> Ooh! He said a dirty word! I'm devastated! So now you
> affect the Dan Koren approach, without Dan's humor or
> intelligence to back it up.

Thanks for the compliment -- however my supposed (and
yet unproven) humor and intelligence should not be
used as yardsticks for anyone else's -- especially
not deacons, pontiffs, or clergypersons of any other
Churches.

dk


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Dan Koren 7/21/03 4:58 PM
"Henk van Tuijl" <hvt...@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:3f1bb5e6$0$49100$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl...
>
>
> Schnabel was and still is a great pianist
> although he did not play Chopin ...


Incorrect. Schnabel did program Chopin (and
Liszt) in recitals he gave during the early
years of his career -- before he became Mr.
Beethoven.


> Tureck reminds me of Haebler. There is
> nothing wrong with the two ladies. They
> were great in the fifties.


Your fifties, their fifties, my fifties,
or everyone's fifties?


> On the other hand Gould's interpretation
> of the Goldberg was a major event, as


A rather repetitive one as well.


> much as Lipatti's Chopin sonata had been
> and Weissenberg's Petrouchka would become.


Tell me about that. Broken strings flying
around the piano.

dk


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/21/03 5:05 PM

What Tom Says:
>
>People should be VERY wary of taking anything Glenn Gould says at face
>value. He also said that he learned nothing from his teacher.
>
>I have not researched what he is said to have said to Elyse Mach, only
>remembering his own words which I have heard and read, where he points
>directly to RT as an influence.
>
>Tureck herself recognized this influence and was rather sorry they had
>never actually met and talked.
>
>Tom Deacon

What It Means:

"I think Glenn Gould was an unmusical fraud, so no one should believe anything
that he says about himself, particularly when he contradicts something that I
said about him. I don't permit anyone else that luxury, so why should I make an
exception for a hack like Gould?

Oh damn! I never saw that quote from Elyse March, but rather than simply admit
that I may have missed it, I will BS my way through this by claiming not to have
'researched' the matter, and simply assert that I have heard something that
supports my original contention. Most of the folks here are intellectual sheep
anyway, willing, indeed wanting to be led by a person of my attainments and
obvious intellectual superiority.

And besides, Tureck herself was always ready to claim that she influenced anyone
who dared to play Bach on the piano. In fact, I think she did tell me once in
passing that she was sorry that she had not met Gould, so that she personally
could have expanded on the subject of her influence on him and received his
thanks. Of course, when I post this point I need to leave that last part out.
Even sheep know the difference between real grass and astroturf.

Not, I feel I have to stress again, that I believe for one moment that Glenn
Gould's comments about himself could possibly be correct when I have already
opined to the contrary. Unthinkable notion!

Tom Deacon"

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Paul Goldstein 7/21/03 5:05 PM
In article <3f1c773e$1...@news.meer.net>, "Dan says...
>
><deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

>news:afsohv0mg58hfe3p00lu6beofr0dg9rmhm@4ax.com...
>>
>> Go for the big picture, Dave.
>>
>
>
>Not for the urtext?
>
>Pontiff, you're changing philosophies at
>an alarming rate....

What does the Jew say to the Pope on Rosh Hashanah?

Good yuntiff, Pontiff!

Paul Goldstein

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Steve Molino 7/21/03 5:20 PM
<deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:f3qohv0aqf2i7k41iek99d18lcb8jms4c4@4ax.com...
> On 21 Jul 2003 06:18:09 -0700, David Hurwitz
> Bull fucking shit you are.
>
> You are here to PROMOTE your Internet rag.
>
> Actually I don't think it works as people will have a hard time
> crediting any intelligence to what you write elsewhere having read the
> idiocies you perpretrate here.
>
>

Actually Tom, while not always agreeing with David, I have come to respect
him and now regularly visit his site.  You, on the other hand, have totally
turned me off on your projects and your opinions.  Not because of your
politicial views (which are probably more aligned with my own that David's)
or your musical judgements (which are probably not so aligned with my own),
but just because you are so unbearably sanctimonious, earnest, and  prissy.


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Peter Greenstein 7/21/03 5:58 PM
> >GLENN GOULD on ROSALYN TURECK (Great Pianists Speak for Themselves by
> >Elyse Mach - page 104).
> >
> >"And so my exposure to her recordings was not perhaps so much a
> >question of influence as of reinforcement; it was nice to know that
> >somebody else was working in essentially the same direction."
> >
> >Sorry Tom, but this is not much of an endorsement of the profound
> >influence you seem to be claiming in your posts.  Gould seems to be
> >saying he wasn't influenced by her AT ALL, but that after hearing her
> >LATER ON she simply reconfirmed many of his own ALREADY FORMED IDEAS
> >-- I suspected as much.
>
> People should be VERY wary of taking anything Glenn Gould says at face
> value. He also said that he learned nothing from his teacher.
>
> I have not researched what he is said to have said to Elyse Mach, only
> remembering his own words which I have heard and read, where he points
> directly to RT as an influence.
>
> Tureck herself recognized this influence and was rather sorry they had
> never actually met and talked.
>
> Tom Deacon


"...and Edwin Fischer I never knew at all. Rather than the playing of people
like that, I was much more familiar when I was growing up with the
recordings of Rosalyn Tureck, for instance, then I ever was with Landowska.
In fact, really I didn't like Landowska's playing very much, and I did like
Tureck's enormously--Tureck influenced me."   pg.63 Conversations with
Jonathan Cott.

This answer surprises Cott, so then Gould goes on to be specific about the
nature of that influence. I'm not going to type Gould's discursive answer,
it's too long. Though Gould did not emulate her approach of "emphatic
terracing", it's that Tureck did not romanticize Bach, and use enormous
amounts of rubato. As a student he loved her approach for its "uprightness,
to put it into the moral sphere." Later Gould says, "But to me Tureck was a
revelation in the way in which Bach could be adapted to the piano."

If you read the entire section you'll see that Gould says that as a piano
student (age 14-16) he was struggling with his teacher about this, and that
Tureck's records validated Gould's feelings about how Bach should go. Her
records were support for his views. It's not completely clear whether Gould
is claiming he had already formed all these ideas about how to play Bach or
not. Perhaps you can read his answers either way. Perhaps it's kind of a
nature vs. nurture situation. But no, it doesn't mean you hear Tureck's
playing in Gould's. Back then maybe, but not anymore.

Personally, I can see an argument that an artist can "influence" us when we
are young by validating a tendency, an approach, something we feel inside
but which is not fully formed or developed. Tureck gave Gould the right to
follow a path that rejected the ways of Landowska and Casals, etc. To Gould
it's still an important influence. Important to him.


peter in oakland,ca.

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Phil Caron 7/21/03 6:07 PM
<deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:oqqohvga4ossdg2mnbbi57bmcfo69j2gs1@4ax.com...

> On 21 Jul 2003 09:10:03 -0700, ssch...@aol.com (Serge) wrote:
>
> >Dear Mr. Deacon:
> >
> >The obscure Russian in question is following this thread with
> >considerable interest. :)
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Sergey Schepkin
>
> Well, Sergei, that is wonderful.
>
> Now, perhaps you are planning to do something to make youserlf less
> obscure? We are always anxious to hear another pianist, specially one
> who plays Bach. But I am not sure I really want to hear one who claims
> to have been influenced by GG, a very dangerous influence in my
> opinion.

When you said the "obscure" Russian, I sure didn't think you meant Sergey!
His is my #1 favorite complete WTC, Richter(s), Feinberg, Tureck,
Nikolayeva, Gould, Korliov, Fischer et al. notwithstanding.  And his
Goldbergs are similarly terrific, up there with the best.  I don't hear
anything like Gould in his playing.

Incidentally, to Dan, I'll grant similarity between Feltzman and Gould, but
how do you know it didn't occur spontaneously, without influence?

- Phil Caron

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/21/03 6:35 PM
>
>Personally, I can see an argument that an artist can "influence" us when we
>are young by validating a tendency, an approach, something we feel inside
>but which is not fully formed or developed. Tureck gave Gould the right to
>follow a path that rejected the ways of Landowska and Casals, etc. To Gould
>it's still an important influence. Important to him.
>
>
>peter in oakland,ca.
>

This conclusion sounds quite reasonable, but unfortunately we have Mr. Deacon's
to remind us that "People should be VERY wary of taking anything Glenn Gould
says at face value." So perhaps we should not trust this comment either.

Dave Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/21/03 6:35 PM
On 21 Jul 2003 16:08:03 -0700, David Hurwitz
<David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:

>>
>>Bull fucking shit you are.
>>
>>You are here to PROMOTE your Internet rag.
>>
>
>Ooh! He said a dirty word! I'm devastated! So now you affect the Dan Koren
>approach, without Dan's humor or intelligence to back it up. Somehow I don't
>think that's going to impress anyone around here, Tom. You should have thought
>twice (or maybe once?) before attempting it. Talk about "protesting to much." My
>goodness!
>
>I am, once again, amazed by your ability to know everyone here better than they
>know themselves. What you don't realize, Tom, is that we've been through this
>before; I have a long history here that predates you, and you only make a fool
>of yourself when, in your ignorance, you rehash tired old arguments, of which
>that is probably the most tired of all.
>
>And the most entertaining thing about this whole situation for me is that you
>are so far beyond heeding sensible advice or seeing the situation for what it
>truly is that you will never know just how ridiculous you sound.
>
>Dave Hurwitz

I am sure you have a history. And I personally witnessed some of it.

It didn't impress me then, It doesn't impress me now.

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/21/03 6:37 PM
On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 23:33:21 GMT, "Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

><deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:f3qohv0aqf2i7k41iek99d18lcb8jms4c4@4ax.com...
>> On 21 Jul 2003 06:18:09 -0700, David Hurwitz


>> <David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > OK, here we go again. My professional work speaks for
>> > itself in its proper place. I am here as a private
>> > citizen.
>>
>> Bull fucking shit you are.
>>
>> You are here to PROMOTE your Internet rag.
>>
>
>
>
>Bull fucking shit are you, Pontiff!
>
>You are here to PROMOTE your Great
>Gold and Brown (Shit) Box, no more
>and no less.
>
>Ingrid Haebler, Geza Panda, Rosalyn
>Tureck and Rudolf Serkin as great
>pianists!
>
>ROTFL !!!
>
>
>
>dk
>
Sorry, Dan. I have no idea what you are talking about.

I don't promote anything, except opposition to ignorant bullies.

And that I am not paid for. I do it gratis, volontiers, avex plaisir.

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Peter 7/21/03 6:43 PM
David Hurwitz <David_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message news:<68705697.0...@drn.newsguy.com>...

<snip>

>The act of performance is necessary in
> general, just as a factory cannot produce goods without workers; and while some
> workers may be better at what they do than others, ultimately the importance of
> individual, SPECIFIC performance is not significant in the long term. Perhaps
> this anomaly accounts for the hysteria and exaggerated claims made by partisans
> of particular performers; they think that the louder they scream and the purer
> and more selfless their love, the greater the chances that their idols will
> achieve the "permanence" of value that validates their own personal artistic
> preferences and loyalty to the cause.
>
> Still, it's a tenuous position at best. Old workers die and new ones are ready
> to take their place in the same job, producing the same goods, and on the whole
> since they are trained by the previous generation and work from the same
> blueprints, knowledge and quality are maintained

Musicians as assembly line workers?  A ridiculous (and revealing) analogy.

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/21/03 6:43 PM
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 00:20:25 GMT, "Steve Molino"
<s_mo...@hotmail.com> wrote:

><deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:f3qohv0aqf2i7k41iek99d18lcb8jms4c4@4ax.com...
>> On 21 Jul 2003 06:18:09 -0700, David Hurwitz
>> Bull fucking shit you are.
>>
>> You are here to PROMOTE your Internet rag.
>>
>> Actually I don't think it works as people will have a hard time
>> crediting any intelligence to what you write elsewhere having read the
>> idiocies you perpretrate here.
>>
>>
>
>Actually Tom, while not always agreeing with David, I have come to respect
>him and now regularly visit his site.  You, on the other hand, have totally
>turned me off on your projects and your opinions.  Not because of your
>politicial views (which are probably more aligned with my own that David's)
>or your musical judgements (which are probably not so aligned with my own),
>but just because you are so unbearably sanctimonious, earnest, and  prissy.
>

Oh, dear. I suppose I shall just have to bear that cross, Steve.
Others have borne similar crosses and been crucified for their words.
I don't plan on such a fate, of course. I think it is against the law
now. Anyway, I never climb mountains and proclaim the TRUTH. That is
surely Mr. Koren's bailliwick.

That you find me santimonious is, however, a pity. Honest, perhaps.
But I don't believe in the sanctity of anything but my own home and my
own person.

That I am earnest goes without saying, as it is my middle name. LOL!
That I am prissy? Well if that is another word for punctilious, I
think you will find many here who are guilty of that quality and you
don't have to look hard, either.

You should know, Steve, that I have no intention, desire, or ability
to match the little viper tongues on this newsgroup. They can wriggle
around in the pit and hiss as much as they like. It matters not a whit
to me. If you "miss" that, you know exactly where to go and get it, a
volonte.

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Dan Koren 7/21/03 6:53 PM
<deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:o75phv0crn680cg4c8c4dbpp7q25r7cl7r@4ax.com...

> On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 23:33:21 GMT, "Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> ><deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:f3qohv0aqf2i7k41iek99d18lcb8jms4c4@4ax.com...
> >> On 21 Jul 2003 06:18:09 -0700, David Hurwitz
> >> <David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> > OK, here we go again. My professional work speaks for
> >> > itself in its proper place. I am here as a private
> >> > citizen.
> >>
> >> Bull fucking shit you are.
> >>
> >> You are here to PROMOTE your Internet rag.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >Bull fucking shit are you, Pontiff!
> >
> >You are here to PROMOTE your Great
> >Gold and Brown (Shit) Box, no more
> >and no less.
> >
> >Ingrid Haebler, Geza Panda, Rosalyn
> >Tureck and Rudolf Serkin as great
> >pianists!
> >
> >ROTFL !!!
> >
> >
> >
> >dk
> >
> Sorry, Dan. I have no idea what you are talking about.
>
> I don't promote anything, except opposition to ignorant bullies.
>
> And that I am not paid for. I do it gratis, volontiers,
> avex plaisir.
>


Avex des erreurs tout aussi.

dk


Rosalyn Tureck Not Dead David Hurwitz 7/21/03 7:05 PM

Sorry folks, it was just a joke. I paid Mr. Garon to post that death notice just
so that I could respond with my little quip. And you all fell for it! Rosalyn is
actually fine and currently hard at work on her next recording of the Goldberg
Variations. She says "hi" to everyone here and particularly to Tom, who she
knows wouldn't have batted an eye at her proposed 8 CD set of the complete WTC,
if only he could have kept his job long enough to see the project through.

Dave Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/21/03 7:08 PM
On 21 Jul 2003 18:10:34 -0700, David Hurwitz
<David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:

Quite right. Knowing Gould as I do, I think everything he said should
be taken with a grain of salt, including these comments on Tureck.

He not invented the notion of "self-promotion", he also taugh Marshall
McLuhan the meaning of the medium. Very smart boy, our Glenn. Bit
wilfully perverse when he wanted to be. Fascinating, to be sure, but
perverse.

Tom Deacon


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported REG 7/21/03 7:41 PM
This can only mean you don't applaud yourself. Wouldn't you be happier if
you were working again?

<deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:afsohv0mg58hfe3p00lu6beofr0dg9rmhm@4ax.com...


> On 21 Jul 2003 09:26:37 -0700, David Hurwitz
>> I applaud such enormous modesty, coming as it does after such
> egregious examples of immodesty.
>
> Tom Deacon


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported REG 7/21/03 7:44 PM
Surely he can't mean...?

<deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1b5phvomk70mb82r1qrq3c3gj5h3kfi6cj@4ax.com...


>>
> Oh, dear. I suppose I shall just have to bear that cross, Steve.
> Others have borne similar crosses and been crucified for their words.
>> Tom Deacon


Rosalyn Tureck Not Dead Nick X Sun 7/21/03 9:01 PM
Dave
Pardon my lack of humor, but which one is the truth? Dead or Not? If not,
how can we explain the news from other sources?
http://www.andante.com/article/article.cfm?id=21596
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/19/obituaries/19TURE.html

Nick

"David Hurwitz" <David_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:68837830.00001d7f.098@drn.newsguy.com...

Rosalyn Tureck Not Dead David Hurwitz 7/21/03 9:35 PM

Well, she is dead, actually--or at least that's the consensus. I just couldn't
resist the thought that this entire silly thread might have resulted from
someone's practical joke. A delicious thought, and a great way to end it!

Sorry for the confusion...

Dave

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Richard Schultz 7/21/03 9:40 PM
In article <68804011.0...@drn.newsguy.com>, David Hurwitz <David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:
 
: I don't especially care if anyone believes me or not. I know the truth of the
: matter, and so do you, and frankly that's all that concerns me.
 
If you know the truth of the matter, then you know that you are lying both
about my actions and about my motivations.  If you're capable of it, you
might take a dispassionate look at some of your posts and ask yourself
why it is that you cannot engage in civilized conversation with someone
who has the temerity to disagree with you.

-----
Richard Schultz                              sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing."

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/21/03 10:35 PM
>
>If you know the truth of the matter, then you know that you are lying both
>about my actions and about my motivations.  If you're capable of it, you
>might take a dispassionate look at some of your posts and ask yourself
>why it is that you cannot engage in civilized conversation with someone
>who has the temerity to disagree with you.
>

I've always thought that it was you who had that problem at least as much as I.
But really, what difference does it make? I'm not going to concede the point,
and neither are you. I'll tell you what: I declare a unilateral truce as far as
you are concerned. I will happily refrain from anything that can be remotely
construed by any reasonable person as a personal attack on you, starting now,
and you can take this statement and throw it back in my face if circumstances
warrant. I find this senseless bickering a boring waste of time for both of us,
when we have far more interesting things to disagree (and maybe even agree)
about. You, on the other hand, are free to do as you please, but as far as I am
concerned the slate is now clean, and we start afresh.

Dave Hurwitz

Rosalyn Tureck Not Dead Richard Schultz 7/21/03 11:40 PM
In article <68847162.0...@drn.newsguy.com>, David Hurwitz <David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:
 
: Well, she is dead, actually--or at least that's the consensus.

She's not dead -- she's just pining for the fjords.

-----
Richard Schultz                              sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"We cannot see how any of his music can long survive him."
             -- From the New York Daily Tribune obituary of Gustav Mahler

Rosalyn Tureck Not Dead Dan Koren 7/22/03 1:24 AM

She must be only visiting JSB for the summer.

As Mark Twain would put it.... ;-)

dk


"Nick X Sun" <Xia...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:zH2Ta.194$8g6.17836@news1.news.adelphia.net...

Rosalyn Tureck Not Dead Jim 7/22/03 3:19 AM
While the poor taste of the original posting might have been open to
debate, this one is quite tacky.
Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/22/03 5:45 AM
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 02:41:38 GMT, "REG" <Rich...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>This can only mean you don't applaud yourself. Wouldn't you be happier if
>you were working again?


Oh, I don't think so, REG. My heart bypass operation three years ago
put paid to my "working" career.

Now all I have to do is "clip coupons". Boring, but better for my
hearlth.

And you?

As far as applauding modesty, I only applaud those who have reason to
be modest. As you know, I don't include myself in that number. LOL!

Well, you asked for it, didn't you?

Tom Deacon

Rosalyn Tureck Not Dead deac...@yahoo.com 7/22/03 5:56 AM
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 01:25:45 -0500, Chas. Brigs <br...@netcom.net>
wrote:

>On 21 Jul 2003 18:37:10 -0700, David Hurwitz


><David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>Sorry folks, it was just a joke. I paid Mr. Garon to post that death notice just
>>so that I could respond with my little quip. And you all fell for it! Rosalyn is
>>actually fine and currently hard at work on her next recording of the Goldberg
>>Variations. She says "hi" to everyone here and particularly to Tom, who she
>>knows wouldn't have batted an eye at her proposed 8 CD set of the complete WTC,
>>if only he could have kept his job long enough to see the project through.
>>
>>Dave Hurwitz
>
>What's the matter, Dave...too much time on your hands? Or just not
>enough ad revenue on your music blog to generate more 10/10s?

You got that right!

Tom Deacon

Rosalyn Tureck Not Dead deac...@yahoo.com 7/22/03 5:58 AM
On 22 Jul 2003 03:19:50 -0700, jme...@aol.com (Jim) wrote:

>While the poor taste of the original posting might have been open to
>debate, this one is quite tacky.

I hope that by now Mr. Hurwitz's original motives are now clear, his
protestations to the contrary notwithstanding.

Tacky is only one word for it, by the way. There are many others.

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Simon Roberts 7/22/03 6:05 AM
In article <dr%Sa.59270$ye5.11...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>, "Steve says...
>
><deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

>news:f3qohv0aqf2i7k41iek99d18lcb8jms4c4@4ax.com...
>> On 21 Jul 2003 06:18:09 -0700, David Hurwitz
>> Bull fucking shit you are.
>>
>> You are here to PROMOTE your Internet rag.
>>
>> Actually I don't think it works as people will have a hard time
>> crediting any intelligence to what you write elsewhere having read the
>> idiocies you perpretrate here.
>>
>>
>
>Actually Tom, while not always agreeing with David, I have come to respect
>him and now regularly visit his site.  You, on the other hand, have totally
>turned me off on your projects and your opinions.  Not because of your
>politicial views (which are probably more aligned with my own that David's)
>or your musical judgements (which are probably not so aligned with my own),
>but just because you are so unbearably sanctimonious, earnest, and  prissy.

I agree.  His poor reasoning and the childish manner in which said political
views are usually expressed don't help either.

Simon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported PaulYarishRPT 7/22/03 6:50 AM
>This is simply not good enough. etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.,


Well, I wasn't trying to change your mind. Clearly I haven't, and clearly I
won't.

I made my points to my satisfaction. I don't think I need to say anything else
on this particular topic.

Nice chatting with you.

Paul


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported JohnGavin 7/22/03 9:40 AM
"Peter Greenstein" <pgre...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<9%%Sa.115305$ye4.84427@sccrnsc01>...

> > >GLENN GOULD on ROSALYN TURECK (Great Pianists Speak for Themselves by
> > >Elyse Mach - page 104).
> > >
> > >"And so my exposure to her recordings was not perhaps so much a
> > >question of influence as of reinforcement; it was nice to know that
> > >somebody else was working in essentially the same direction."
> > >
> > >Sorry Tom, but this is not much of an endorsement of the profound
> > >influence you seem to be claiming in your posts.  Gould seems to be
> > >saying he wasn't influenced by her AT ALL, but that after hearing her
> > >LATER ON she simply reconfirmed many of his own ALREADY FORMED IDEAS
> > >-- I suspected as much.
> >
> > People should be VERY wary of taking anything Glenn Gould says at face
> > value. He also said that he learned nothing from his teacher.
> >
>
>
> "...and Edwin Fischer I never knew at all. Rather than the playing of people
> like that, I was much more familiar when I was growing up with the
> recordings of Rosalyn Tureck, for instance, then I ever was with Landowska.
> In fact, really I didn't like Landowska's playing very much, and I did like
> Tureck's enormously--Tureck influenced me."   pg.63 Conversations with
> Jonathan Cott.
>
His view was angled a bit differently for Mach -

"When I was a student, one was told one must look for guidance
regarding Bach interpretation to figures like Edwin Fischer,
Landowska, Casals, and so on.  And these were late-romantic figures
who certainly played in a very mesmeric way - no question about it."

Here's what Gould says about his early studies (very revelatory):

"My studies with Guerrero, in my later teens, were essentially
exercises in argument -- they were attempts to crystallize my point of
view versus his on some particular issues, whatever it was, and
therefore a useful exercise - and I think that for me, anyway, it
worked very well."

My take on this whole matter - Gould was an extraordinarily precocious
talent who from the very beginning followed his own drummer.  Like
many or even most big instrumental talents his style crystallized at a
very young age. (eg - Heifetz sounded like Heifetz at age 12). His
musical persona gravitated strongly toward modernism, and rejected a
romantic approach, which was completely alien to his own psyche.
Gould once wrote an essay on attending a Rubinstein all-Chopin recital
and how unbearable it was to him (although he respected Rubinstein as
a musician).

The wave of "modernism" was forming before Glenn Gould came on the
scene - listen for example to Michelangeli's recording of the Italian
Concerto - although ABM used a kind of clear, articulate legato, it is
a very modern reading.  Marcelle Meyer's Bach has a similar modern
feel, and both recorded these in the 1930s and 40s.  Gould rode the
wave of emerging modernism, and crystallized it in his own very unique
way.  IMO this would have happened with or without Tureck.

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/22/03 10:14 AM


It has always seemed slightly contradictory that the most "modern" of
pianists, Glenn Gould, was, by the very fact of his excesses, also the
most "romantic" of his generation. Not, of course, in the sound he
produced, but the attitude he assumed. The performer is really king in
his world. Of course he rejected Rubinstein. First of all Gould did
not have much love for Chopin. But also he rejected Rubinstein's form
of "romanticism", which was quite different from his own.

But a true romantic he was, even down to declaring Richard Strauss's
Ein Heldenleben his favourite orchestral work.(Incidentally, he
preferred the Karajan version)

What I feel he did do was to imitate certain aspects of Tureck's
playing: the very slight use of the sustaining pedal, the crisp
articulation, and the clarity she brought to the contrapuntal lines.
For him Bach was not a "harmonic" composer, if you see what I mean,
but a contrapuntal one. That was also Tureck's position.

These are generalizations, of course, but in the right direction, I
feel.

Tom Deacon

Incidentally, this makes the 200th post on the subject of Rosalyn
Tureck. If she had been what Hurwitz and others claimed, nobody would
have bothered to write so much about her.

Rosalyn Tureck Not Dead basnperson 7/22/03 10:31 AM
deac...@yahoo.com wrote in message news:<u4dqhvgpfmnetf7o5t3airs7e3h5n5521e@4ax.com>...

perhaps you can add one more word, "stupid", a word freely employed by
Hurwitz himself to describe another individual....

AB

Rosalyn Tureck Not Dead David Hurwitz 7/22/03 11:05 AM
>
>I hope that by now Mr. Hurwitz's original motives are now clear, his
>protestations to the contrary notwithstanding.
>

Actually, I don't think I need any other motive that the sheer amusement of
seeing a group of pompous windbags speculate about my "motives." Keep it up
guys, it only gets better.

Dave Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Simon Roberts 7/22/03 12:05 PM
In article <9rrqhvk5fn353vufp2m93srgmha7sl29ti@4ax.com>, deac...@yahoo.com
says...

>Incidentally, this makes the 200th post on the subject of Rosalyn
>Tureck. If she had been what Hurwitz and others claimed, nobody would
>have bothered to write so much about her.

Most contributions to this thread have been about David Hurwitz and etiquette.

Simon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/22/03 12:20 PM
In article <bfk06...@drn.newsguy.com>, Simon says...

Funny how hard some people find it to stick to the subject, isn't it? And I
haven't "claimed" anything about her at all, other than to note that she
preferred slow tempos, which is a fact that everyone seems to acknowledge.

As to the number of posts, if that means what Tom thinks it does, then I suggest
he arrange to place on her tombstone the following epitaph:

"Here lie the remains of Rosalyn Tureck, whose fame was such that she inspired a
thread in excess of 200 posts in an internet newsgroup. Who could ask for more?"

Dave Hurwitz

Dave Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Clovis Lark 7/22/03 12:21 PM
Simon Roberts <sd...@comcast.net> wrote:
> In article <9rrqhvk5fn353vufp2m93srgmha7sl29ti@4ax.com>, deac...@yahoo.com
> says...

>>Incidentally, this makes the 200th post on the subject of Rosalyn
>>Tureck. If she had been what Hurwitz and others claimed, nobody would
>>have bothered to write so much about her.

> Most contributions to this thread have been about David Hurwitz and etiquette.

Indeed, not even her theramin career was worthy of mention!

> Simon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Steve Molino 7/22/03 12:33 PM
"Simon Roberts" <sd...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:bfk06n030bg@drn.newsguy.com...

> In article <9rrqhvk5fn353vufp2m93srgmha7sl29ti@4ax.com>,
deac...@yahoo.com
> says...
>
> >Incidentally, this makes the 200th post on the subject of Rosalyn
> >Tureck. If she had been what Hurwitz and others claimed, nobody would
> >have bothered to write so much about her.
>
> Most contributions to this thread have been about David Hurwitz and
etiquette.
>
> Simon
>

Bingo.  This thread hasn't been "about" Tureck since post #1.


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged) 7/22/03 12:50 PM
David Hurwitz <David_...@newsguy.com> appears to have caused the
following letters to be typed in
news:68899907...@drn.newsguy.com:

> As to the number of posts, if that means what Tom thinks it does, then
> I suggest he arrange to place on her tombstone the following epitaph:
>
> "Here lie the remains of Rosalyn Tureck, whose fame was such that she
> inspired a thread in excess of 200 posts in an internet newsgroup. Who
> could ask for more?"

Certain of the various fraud performers have inspired longer (and worse)
threads.

--
Matthew B. Tepper:  WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Mark Coy tossed off eBay?  http://makeashorterlink.com/?M2B734C02
RMCR's most pointless, dumb and laughable chowderhead:  Mark Coy.

Rosalyn Tureck Not Dead deac...@yahoo.com 7/22/03 12:57 PM
On 22 Jul 2003 10:41:46 -0700, David Hurwitz
<David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:

It's good that something is getting better. You sure aren't.

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Phil Caron 7/22/03 5:02 PM
"Alain Dagher" <al...@bic.mni.mcgill.ca> wrote in message
news:%ZTSa.104013$q42.63417@charlie.risq.qc.ca...
> Phil Caron wrote:
> >
> > Personally, I don't feel dying necessarily is a misfortune; the timing
> > might be awkward, and the circumstances could be painful, but hey, we
> > all do it.
> >
>
> You are all assuming that because dying happens to everyone it isn't a
> misfortune?
>
What is gained by treating it as such?  It is unfortunate is someone dies
after a too short or otherwise unrewarding life, but that's talking about
their life, not their death.  Survivors may naturally feel grief and miss
the one who died, and it's right to be concerned with those living people if
possible.  Very recently I had a longtime friend commit suicide because his
dog died the year before.  I had visited him regularly, and month after
month I sort of shrugged and assumed he'd snap out of his grief and get on
with life.  He was 53 and loved Brahms, and he played the piano and the
violin.  I don't know why I'm mentioning this except that music is far, far
from the most important thing, and in fact right now I'm a little pissed off
at music for all the many things it isn't.  And coming here to see someone
express their enjoyment of pianist X and get called every name in the book
for it isn't elevating my opinion of music's goodness one bit.

-

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported ulvi 7/22/03 5:15 PM
"Phil Caron" <vlad...@vermontel.net> wrote in
news:10589...@websense.vermontel.net:

Music's good. People are another matter..

Ulvi

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported JohnGavin 7/22/03 5:17 PM
deac...@yahoo.com wrote in message news:<9rrqhvk5fn353vufp2m93srgmha7sl29ti@4ax.com>...

> On 22 Jul 2003 09:40:31 -0700, dag...@comcast.net (John Gavin) wrote:
>
>
> Incidentally, this makes the 200th post on the subject of Rosalyn
> Tureck. If she had been what Hurwitz and others claimed, nobody would
> have bothered to write so much about her.


Well, actually it's the 200th post mostly on the subject of Tureck &
Gould to be realistic.  Along the same lines, do a Google search some
day, just on rmcr, to see how many times since it's inception the
names Glenn Gould and Rosalyn Tureck come up in discussions.  I'll bet
you, without any exageration that the ratio is about 100:1.

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/22/03 5:24 PM

>-
>
>
Am I alone in feeling that this is one of the most honest - and
movingly sincere - post in recent weeks?

It is pointless to discuss the meaning of music with anyone, Phil. Its
meaning is locked in some strange world between the performer and your
own ears. And you, alone, have the key.

This forum, if it has any interest at all, is simply to call people's
attention to the existence of recorded performances, hardly to point
to their significance. That is a private matter.

Tom Deacon

Rosalyn Tureck Not Dead deac...@yahoo.com 7/22/03 5:27 PM
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 17:13:26 -0500, Chas. Brigs <br...@netcom.net>
wrote:

>On 22 Jul 2003 10:41:46 -0700, David Hurwitz


><David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
>>>
>>>I hope that by now Mr. Hurwitz's original motives are now clear, his
>>>protestations to the contrary notwithstanding.
>>>
>>
>>Actually, I don't think I need any other motive that the sheer amusement of
>>seeing a group of pompous windbags speculate about my "motives." Keep it up
>>guys, it only gets better.
>>
>>Dave Hurwitz
>
>Still tons of time on your hands, eh Dave? Check out the want ads on
>Monster.com, I'm sure there are numerous positions for hack...I
>mean... catalog copywriters; Farm & Fleet comes to mind...

But the requirements for such positions are very stringent. They
require a modicum of intelligence, some basic knowledge, an ability to
write, and so on. Aren't you setting the bar a trifle high for Mr.
Hurwitz?

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Phil Caron 7/22/03 6:56 PM
"David Hurwitz" <David_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:68742751.0001614c.047@drn.newsguy.com...

> And now it's time for a little hypocrisy check, Phil. Just a couple of
postings
> down from here, Mr. Zwar offered the innocent suggestion that he did not
think I
> meant anything malicious by my post--as indeed I did not.
>
> Mr. Deacon replied, calling him "Kind-hearted, but hardly perceptive."
That,
> Phil, is a straight-as-an-arrow, unsolicited, unprovoked, direct personal
insult
> to the person in question about which I think there can be little dispute
as to
> "interpretation" or "motivation."
>
I missed it, but David, I'm delighted to see that you are coming around.
You are absolutely correct, insults are bad.  One gets the impression that
some people visit here just to raise hell, and Mr. Deacon seems quite
suspicious in that regard.  Please, by all means, don't let rude behaviour
pass - if you were to politely ask Tom to be a little more considerate, it
just might work.  You never know.

Joking aside, in your replies to me in this thread I can recall no instance
of your directly insulting me.  That standard surpasses mine, sorry to say.
I don't know if you are interested, but I offer you a sincere apology for
the "peacock" remark and other harsh words I've sent your way.  Those were
inexcusable.  My position should be strong enough to stand without dubious
underhanded props.  I weakened the case.  But personally, I'm sorry for
being both mean-spirited towards you and overly presumptuous.

A lot of people have weighed in on the "etiquette" subthread.  Doesn't seem
to be a huge majority of opinion either way.  It's interesting that the
range of sentiments is so broad.  I'd assumed that people would naturally be
hurt if their mother or sister or child had died, and someone popped up
first thing with a snappy little backhand remark.  If people's opinions can
be extrapolated into how they themselves would feel, then apparently a
substantial percentage really wouldn't be bothered in that situation by such
a remark.

Strange to say, in that position I wouldn't be bothered much either.
Inconsiderateness to me or verbal insults usually pretty much roll off.
Maybe I avoid people who are routinely insensitive, but it's not a hard
rule.  I still feel strongly about the joke, but apparently my outrage isn't
really on behalf of anyone in particular or even any distinct group of
people.  It's more like it's on behalf of some hypothetical individual, or a
tiny bit on behalf of some "everybody" in my head.  I trust the feeling,
even after considerable re-examination, but explaining it seems futile.
David, I believe your intent was what you say it was.  But don't you see
that the timing might have hurt someone, and don't you care about that?  If
not, I remain very far from understanding how can that be.

Anyway, if people think a behavior is poor, they should speak up!  Negative
norms get established by people who don't care or don't post.  Mr. Hurwitz,
you evidently enjoy this wrangling, don't you?  I appreciate your tacit
invitation, but to collaborate with you in meticulously judging each and
every post here for tastefullness or fairness or such, well, that's way
beyond me - I'd never hold up my end of the job for long.  More suitable
partners for you in such an endurance test abound.  Mr. Deacon comes
obviously to mind.

- Phil Caron

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/22/03 7:07 PM

But of course.

Gould was perhaps the first musician of our day who understood the
term Marketing. He was a tireless self-promoter.

So, I would not at all be surprised by the ratio you suggest, if a
trifle extreme, in my opinion.

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Serge 7/22/03 7:31 PM
"Steve Molino" <s_mo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3oWSa.51717$ye5.10435087@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
> "Serge" <ssch...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:744b0bf1.0307210810.680618bf@posting.google.com...
> >
> > The obscure Russian in question is following this thread with
> > considerable interest. :)
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Sergey Schepkin
>
> Hey, I was just reading this thread bemused by it all, and playing your
> Partita #2 recording when I ran across this.  Wonderful recording!

Many thanks, Steve. I am glad you like it.

Sergey

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/22/03 9:05 PM
>David, I believe your intent was what you say it was.  But don't you see
>that the timing might have hurt someone, and don't you care about that?  If
>not, I remain very far from understanding how can that be.

I understand that it might have, and I AM sorry if that is the case, but I also
believe that anyone's right to express their opinion or simply crack a joke in a
public forum takes precedence over another's right not to be offended. That is
where I stand on this issue. You can't know in advance what will or will not set
someone off, and that's why these forums exist--to allow people the freedom to
be themselves, express opinions informally, blow off steam, and NOT have to care
if someone somewhere takes offense at any remark directed at an artist or public
figure. I believe that very strongly.

You know perfectly well that there are degrees to everything; if I said that I
thought Tureck was a dreadful artist and her passing is a blessing to culture,
then I would understand someone being upset. But I said nothing perjorative
about her at all--nowhere in this thread do I mock or malign her either
personally or artistically, other than to say that she prefered slow tempos. I
didn't even say that I thought that was a bad thing. I own many of her
recordings; I enjoy them. We have reviewed the most recent ones at CT.com on the
whole positively, and at all events fairly.

My personal opinion of her in a "professional" capacity, and that of my writers,
is there for anyone interested in seeing it, and has been for years, which is
why I found Tom's ongoing blathering about my "motivation" so funny. And you
have to admit, it's not often that you have the benefit of access to someone's
opinion in advance of the discussion. There it was, but no one even bothered to
look because the issue was not really my "motivation" or "evil intent," but
rather that those who believed such things be confirmed in their belief. That's
usually the way of it in these circumstances.

I am continually struck by the evident need some people have to believe the
worst morally, spiritually, or at all events personally about anyone with whom
they disagree about something, or whose sense of priorities, humor, or tastes
they do not share. Really Phil, was that little joke THAT threatening? In
reality, it could only hurt those predisposed in that direction, because in
order to be hurt it would be necessary for the offended party to believe that
this was my intention, and how much consideration should anyone give such a
person? If it isn't Tureck, it will be something else, because such people are
looking for a focus for their anger and misery, or whatever other chip they have
on their shoulders. You can't plan your every remark around an intent simply to
offend no one (and I know you are not suggesting that), or you would never be
able to express opinions about anything. And of all places where we should be
comparatively free of such considerations, I suggest that this is one.

>
>Anyway, if people think a behavior is poor, they should speak up!  Negative
>norms get established by people who don't care or don't post.  Mr. Hurwitz,
>you evidently enjoy this wrangling, don't you?  

Of course I do. But I like wrangling about music more. Frankly, I don't believe
that I deserve all of this attention, and it's a puzzling social phenomenon as
to why I get it no matter how innocuous my participation here is. There are
comments about Tureck in this thread far more vicious and personally damning
than anything that I have said, and they simply get ignored. I suppose in a way
it's a compliment, and that's actually how I see it.

I appreciate your tacit
>invitation, but to collaborate with you in meticulously judging each and
>every post here for tastefullness or fairness or such, well, that's way
>beyond me - I'd never hold up my end of the job for long.  

No, that is not my intention. My point is what it has always been: don't always
automatically assume evil intent, don't take yourself so seriously, don't assume
your definition of appropriate conduct is a universal standard, and most of all,
don't make yourself miserable agonizing over the fact that others may not see
this issue that way you do--that there's no virtue in the world or that
"standards" of conduct are in the toilet. We need to keep these things in
perspective: sure, tell me you object to something I say that offends you. You
have that right. What you don't have is the right to assume that having
announced yourself as the wounded party, you are entitled to sympathy or special
consideration from those who don't feel it was reasonable that you reacted that
way in the first place. My God, Phil, these are just words: no one is causing
you physical harm, or willfully inflicting emotional distress! If you
continually obsess over "how" something is said, as opposed to "what" is said,
you are going to make yourself crazy. I just don't see how that little joke I
made is worth ten seconds of your emotional energy. Either you laugh, or ignore
it!

And as I have said before, I don't take any of this personally. I think it was
very kind of you to say what you just have, and I respect your position. Now
that I know your position, I will do my best to respect your feelings when I am
addressing you directly, but you simply cannot expect me (or anyone else) to
respect YOUR feelings when addressing others or simply making a statement about
some subject, musical or no. That's not reasonable to my way of thinking. Still,
I sincerely hope from this point on that we can confine our discussions to
musical matters, whether we agree or disagree, and that neither of us comes to
say anything that we later regret.

Best regards,

Dave Hurwitz

Rosalyn Tureck Not Dead Raymond Hall 7/22/03 9:48 PM
<deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:tflrhvoi3ssv5chhdj770m221d78gm9s05@4ax.com...

What a humourless and utterly drab remark. Pathetic.

Regards,

  # http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html
   See You Tamara (Ozzy Osbourne)

Ray, Taree, NSW

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Serge 7/22/03 10:30 PM
deac...@yahoo.com wrote in message news:<oqqohvga4ossdg2mnbbi57bmcfo69j2gs1@4ax.com>...
> On 21 Jul 2003 09:10:03 -0700, ssch...@aol.com (Serge) wrote:
>
> >> On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 22:02:22 GMT, "Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >And to my ears, one can hear Gould's influence
> >> >very clearly in the playing of Vladimir Feltsman,
> >> >Sergei Schepkin, Evgeny Korolev, Andrei Gavrilov
> >> >and many others. Imitation? No. Influence? Yes!
>  
> >> >dk
> >
> >deac...@yahoo.com wrote in message news:<107mhv0vtbtg3t64kdi32pehc672jhp4oo@4ax.com>...
> >
> >> A nice distinction.
> >>
> >> However, I would be hard put to cite examples of such "influence" in
> >> the pianists you mention, with the exception of the obscure Russian
> >> whose work I do not know.
> >
> ><snip>
> >
> >> Tom Deacon
> >
> >
> >Dear Mr. Deacon:

> >
> >The obscure Russian in question is following this thread with
> >considerable interest. :)
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Sergey Schepkin
>
> Well, Sergei, that is wonderful.
>
> Now, perhaps you are planning to do something to make youserlf less
> obscure? We are always anxious to hear another pianist, specially one
> who plays Bach. But I am not sure I really want to hear one who claims
> to have been influenced by GG, a very dangerous influence in my
> opinion.
>
> Tom Deacon

This response may seem out of line, but the slightly condescending
tone of the previous message prompts me to make the following
observations.

By not wishing to listen to pianists who were and are influenced by
GG, Mr. Deacon may be missing out on some great playing, because GG
was and is a major catalyst for a heck of a lot of us out there, and
it does not just apply to performing Bach. As for the late Ms. Tureck,
I had the patience to sit through one of her many "Goldbergs" only
once. Ultimately, it was an educational experience, for I have never
thought one could play that work with less grace, charm, or
understanding of the spirit and letter of its style (for example, her
ornaments are often wrongly chosen or executed -- did she ever read
her CPE??). Her WTC, however, fares better and, on occasion, is even
inspired; nevertheless, her idea of bringing out the fugal subject at
the expense of the rest of the texture is rather odd, to say the least
(or is it the engineering?). IMHO, as a Bach performer she does not
really hold candle to GG, Feinberg, or Landowska, the Pleyel
notwithstanding. I will be interested, however, in familiarizing
myself with her non-Bach legacy.

As for "doing something to make myself less obscure," I think that not
being influenced by the late Ms. Tureck would certainly be a step in
the right direction, even if it might cost me the loss of Mr. Deacon
as a potential listener.

This thread is strangely reminiscent of "Eunice Norton's Goldbergs."
It seems that Mr. Deacon might have inherited the mantle of Edward
Jasiewicz. And -- slightly macabre and irreverent as it was -- I
thought that Mr. Hurwitz's joke hit the nail on the head.

Cheers -

Sergey

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Serge 7/22/03 10:30 PM
Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Dan Koren 7/22/03 11:05 PM
"Serge" <ssch...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:744b0bf1.0307221910.4d518c89@posting.google.com...


Thanks, Sergey!

dk


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Dan Koren 7/22/03 11:07 PM
"Serge" <ssch...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:744b0bf1.0307221911.1467ca52@posting.google.com...


BTW, I'm afraid you may be putting in jeopardy
your ticket into the next great pianists box! ;-)

dk


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/23/03 5:37 AM

There is nothing "out of line" in your posting here, except that you
expose yourself to comments like my own, which are sometimes glarinly
frank.

It is nice to see a young musician with strong ideas. And I applaud
your not wishing to imitate Madame Tureck, whatever your reasons. And
I trust that you will also not want to be a watered down, updated GG,
or Feinberg,Landowska or whoever, but a rather strong interpreter on
your own count.

You are, of course, quite wrong about Tureck, both in detail and in
the broad picture, but we will leave that aside for the moment. As you
are a performer yourself, you really must put aside such invidious
comparisons and get on with your own interpretations, which should be
able to stand on their own without reference to those of others.

My suggestsion about making  yourself "lless obscure" were not in the
slightest intended to be condescending. We all are anxious to hear
young musicians. Specially myself. I travel long distances to do that,
for no other reason but sheer curiosity. And I buy CDs an an alarming
rate.

You will be delighted to know that I have ordered some of your
recordings, at least the ones which are still available (the last two
Partitas are unavailable, it would seem) and will report on my
thoughts when I have had a chance to listen for myself. Let us hope
that you will tolerate those comments as much as you seem to tolerate
the "joke" of Mr. Hurwitz. My own thoughts are that artists deserve
better than such nasty putdowns, particularly on the announcement of
their passing.. Perhaps you disagree. If so, fine. But we do not agree
on that point.

Making yourself less obscure also entails significant management (your
name is completely unknown to orchestra  managers and impresarios to
whom I put it; a bad sign for an artist who wishes to make a career, I
would suggest), significant appearances and reviews, A Carnegie Hall
debut, certainly, as well as Wigmore Hall in London,  wide
distribution of recordings, and so on. Big demands, but you are the
one wishing to be compared with the greats, I think. Perhaps less time
on newsgroups and more time with potential managers and presenters
would help, for a start.

As far as Enice Norton is concerned, I have managed to avoid her
recordings over the years. I think I will continue that path. Edward
Jasiewiecz is a name not known to me. Your reference is completely
lost. Sorry.

Tom Deacon


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Bob Lombard 7/23/03 6:23 AM
On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 08:37:03 -0400, deac...@yahoo.com wrote:

>Making yourself less obscure also entails significant management (your
>name is completely unknown to orchestra  managers and impresarios to
>whom I put it; a bad sign for an artist who wishes to make a career, I
>would suggest), significant appearances and reviews, A Carnegie Hall
>debut, certainly, as well as Wigmore Hall in London,  wide
>distribution of recordings, and so on. Big demands, but you are the
>one wishing to be compared with the greats, I think. Perhaps less time
>on newsgroups and more time with potential managers and presenters
>would help, for a start.
>
>As far as Enice Norton is concerned, I have managed to avoid her
>recordings over the years. I think I will continue that path. Edward
>Jasiewiecz is a name not known to me. Your reference is completely
>lost. Sorry.
>
>Tom Deacon
>
Excellent advice at least in part, Sergey. Next time you are offered a
Carnegie Hall recital, accept.

Doesn't Ed have recordings available? Perhaps, as a professional
courtesy, you could direct Tom to them. Seems to me that Dan Koren
offered his copy of Ms. Norton recordings 'free plus mailing costs'.
Such a bargain may overcome Tom's reluctance.

bl

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Dan Koren 7/23/03 8:20 AM
<deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:q8vshvcojbn4d3va3pj50vi6vtk3ro558h@4ax.com...

>
> As far as Enice Norton is concerned, I have managed to
> avoid her recordings over the years.


Your loss entirely. Otherwise you might have selected
her for the Great Gold and Brown Box ahead of other,
even less deserving pianists.

dk


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Dan Koren 7/23/03 8:21 AM
"Bob Lombard" <hill...@vermontel.net> wrote in message
news:hg2thvotsc8rfn6emjtm9gsp79rphl3b4e@4ax.com...

>
> Seems to me that Dan Koren offered his copy of
> Ms. Norton recordings 'free plus mailing costs'.
> Such a bargain may overcome Tom's reluctance.
>


I only export to Canada if paid in oil and gas.

dk


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/23/03 8:40 AM
On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 15:20:36 GMT, "Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

><deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:q8vshvcojbn4d3va3pj50vi6vtk3ro558h@4ax.com...

>Your loss entirely. Otherwise you might have selected


>her for the Great Gold and Brown Box ahead of other,
>even less deserving pianists.
>
>
>
>dk
>
Don't you think it is time you grew up and faced some of life's
disappointments, Dan?

It would be the first tiny step towards maturity on your part. I know
it would be difficult, daring even and perhaps frightening. But I do
think you should make an effort.

tom Deacon


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/23/03 8:41 AM
On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 15:21:45 GMT, "Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>"Bob Lombard" <hill...@vermontel.net> wrote in messageWell that's perfect. I don't receive exports from the USA unless paid
in French wine,and very good stuff, too. No Calfornia plonk, please.

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Serge 7/23/03 8:56 AM
"Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<3f1e2632$1...@news.meer.net>...

> BTW, I'm afraid you may be putting in jeopardy
> your ticket into the next great pianists box! ;-)
>
> dk

Oh, well. :)

Sergey

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported David Hurwitz 7/23/03 9:20 AM
>
>You will be delighted to know that I have ordered some of your
>recordings, at least the ones which are still available (the last two
>Partitas are unavailable, it would seem) and will report on my
>thoughts when I have had a chance to listen for myself.

They are all available: http://www.ongaku-records.com/

Dave Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Dan Koren 7/23/03 9:39 AM
"Serge" <ssch...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:744b0bf1.0307230756.40da2237@posting.google.com...


OK with me BTW -- I will still buy your recordings! ;-)

dk


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported XYZ XYZ 7/23/03 9:58 AM
The issue of whether this is tasteless aside, when I sent this to a friend,
she complained that she didn't get it.  When I read it again, I've to admit
that this is a little illogical.

Why would the average tempo increase because she died?  The average tempo
of what?  Recordings?  That stays the same.  Past performances?  That stays
the same.  The average of things that've already taken place doesn't
change.  You could argue that the average of future performances could
change -- but then, she was close to 90.  Could she have made another
recording or given another performance?

Maybe I'm doing too logical -- no wonder I don't get jokes.  :-)

David Hurwitz <David_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message news:<68546968.0...@drn.newsguy.com>...

> ...and the average worldwide tempo of Bach keyboard performances just increased
> by at least 10%.
>
> Dave Hurwitz

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/23/03 10:50 AM
On 23 Jul 2003 08:57:03 -0700, David Hurwitz
<David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:

Unfortunately this site is not of much use to me, or to anyone who
lives outside of the USA.  It requires checks or money orders drawn on
a US bank. Very restrictive. With such a policy it is no wonder  that
Mr. Schepkin and his Bach are not better known? It is easier to get a
recording of Trevor Barnard playing Australian music!!!

The second volume of the Partitas was NOT available from Amazon.com
and the others I purchased from Wherehouse Records as used goods
through Amazon. They do take CCs of course. Very sensible and
convenient for the cusomer.

Tom Deacon.


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/23/03 10:52 AM
No problem There was no joke. Just a tasteless remark.

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Ian Bell 7/23/03 12:01 PM

<deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:eeithvos707n8g635sgro631o5c8ctvm7b@4ax.com...

> Unfortunately this site is not of much use to me, or to anyone who
> lives outside of the USA.  It requires checks or money orders drawn on
> a US bank.

This is not hard in Canada... USD money orders from major Canadian banks are
drawn on US banks... this is the case with TD Canada Trust at least and I
would guess with all the others too.

IB

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/23/03 12:16 PM

Excuse me?

I should travel 30 kilometers to get a US money order drawn on a US
bank ( plus bank charges and mailing, of course) so as to by a $15.00
CD?

Are we in the 21st century, Ian?

Please! You ask too much.

I might go out of my way for, say, Ingrid Haebler, but I would not do
that as a normal course of business.

If one cannot get delievery to the door at the push of a button in
this day and age, there is something seriously wrong. Perhaps Ongaku
is a "cottage operation"? I have no idea. I will continue to hunt for
some company which has a more modern sense of "service".

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged) 7/23/03 1:05 PM
deac...@yahoo.com appears to have caused the following letters to be
typed in news:n3bthv4e18mmeja811p4fil1phbt8tsvca@4ax.com:

> Well that's perfect. I don't receive exports from the USA unless paid
> in French wine,and very good stuff, too. No Calfornia plonk, please.

And just whose loss is that?

--
Matthew B. Tepper:  WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Mark Coy tossed off eBay?  http://makeashorterlink.com/?M2B734C02
RMCR's most pointless, dumb and laughable chowderhead:  Mark Coy.

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/23/03 3:34 PM
On 23 Jul 2003 08:57:03 -0700, David Hurwitz
<David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:

>>
>>You will be delighted to know that I have ordered some of your
>>recordings, at least the ones which are still available (the last two
>>Partitas are unavailable, it would seem) and will report on my
>>thoughts when I have had a chance to listen for myself.
>
>They are all available: http://www.ongaku-records.com/
>
>Dave Hurwitz

Amazing what a complaint will do. A note to Ongaku elicited a reply
from Jonathan Cohler, who informs me that all the titles on his label
will be available for purchse through PayPal in the next few days.

Progress.

So, no more mailing cheques, etc.

Tom Deacon


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/23/03 3:35 PM
On 23 Jul 2003 19:41:51 GMT, "Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net
are forged)" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:

>deac...@yahoo.com appears to have caused the following letters to be
>typed in news:n3bthv4e18mmeja811p4fil1phbt8tsvca@4ax.com:
>
>> Well that's perfect. I don't receive exports from the USA unless paid
>> in French wine,and very good stuff, too. No Calfornia plonk, please.
>
>And just whose loss is that?

Well, it is certainly not mine. I never wanted the CDs mentioned by
Mr. Koren in the first place.

And certainly don't want any California wine.

Vive la France!

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported REG 7/23/03 5:08 PM
Only when others fight for her.

<deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9b3uhv41ek8i7i2arfonvohtj2uock5rh6@4ax.com...

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported basnperson 7/23/03 5:10 PM
gradually diminishing cult of fans. We shall see. The gods survive. It's the
> >high priests and priestesses that come and go, Few remember their passing, which
> >of course is only just. Composers matter; works matter; performers are
> >ephemeral. That's essential to what classical music is.
> >
> >Dave Hurwitz
>
>
> Perfectly true.
>
> A worse fate awaits those who write about music, however. Their words
> die almost as soon as they are written. One has to ask why they even
> bother, given the ephemeral nature of their work.
>
> Tom Deacon

very well said, Tom. I too, often wonder about "those who write about music"

AB

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported REG 7/23/03 5:11 PM
This lamentable piece of crap pretends to be concerned about artists, but he
is putting down an excellent pianist who reads this group, and participates,
for the soporific Haebler. Tom, if you'd really been so important you
wouldn't be having so many problems now.

<deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ccnthv0novpm2u1oqd98eb0vfvt6rlhnra@4ax.com...


> On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 14:51:11 -0400, "Ian Bell"
>> I might go out of my way for, say, Ingrid Haebler, but I would not do
> that as a normal course of business.
> Tom Deacon


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Marc Perman 7/23/03 6:08 PM

<deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1drrhv04sijg4ve02nholfedm0utrscn8v@4ax.com...

> Gould was perhaps the first musician of our day who understood
the
> term Marketing. He was a tireless self-promoter.

What about Rubinstein, Heifetz, Duke Ellington....

Marc Perman


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/23/03 6:22 PM
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:11:31 GMT, "REG" <Rich...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>This lamentable piece of crap pretends to be concerned about artists, but he
>is putting down an excellent pianist who reads this group, and participates,
>for the soporific Haebler. Tom, if you'd really been so important you
>wouldn't be having so many problems now.
>
><deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

>news:ccnthv0novpm2u1oqd98eb0vfvt6rlhnra@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 14:51:11 -0400, "Ian Bell"
>>> I might go out of my way for, say, Ingrid Haebler, but I would not do
>> that as a normal course of business.
>> Tom Deacon
>
Excuse me?

Problems? Do you know something I don't, REG?

Haebler is a distinguished artist with a long career behind her. I
take your comments for the kind of ignorant slur they are.

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/23/03 6:25 PM
On 23 Jul 2003 17:10:26 -0700, abac...@att.net (arri bachrach)
wrote:

We have to remember that we, too, write about music, Arri. But only in
a casual fashion. We may be among the only ones here who realize  that
this is NOT the Supreme Court of Music. Mr. Koren. REG, Mr. Tepper (on
occasion) and others seem to feel differently, however. Silly. This is
just a chat-room, surely.

Tom Deacon


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/23/03 6:42 PM
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 01:02:42 GMT, "Marc Perman" <mper...@nyc.rr.com>
wrote:

>
><deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message


>news:1drrhv04sijg4ve02nholfedm0utrscn8v@4ax.com...
>
>> Gould was perhaps the first musician of our day who understood
>the
>> term Marketing. He was a tireless self-promoter.
>
>What about Rubinstein, Heifetz, Duke Ellington....
>
>Marc Perman
>
In my opinion they were not in the same league as Gould.

When you think that his performing career barely lasted 15 years, all
told, it is quite amazing that he managed to gain headlines every time
he did anything.

Perhaps we are more sensitive to this effect in Canada. But he even
wrote articles - and music - for Stereo Review, for heaven's sake.
Anything to keep his name before the public.

I won't comment on Duke Ellington, as that is not in my sphere of
knowledge. Heifetz? Well, I am not sure how much he promoted himself
through his career.

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Simon Roberts 7/23/03 6:50 PM
In article <q8vshvcojbn4d3va3pj50vi6vtk3ro558h@4ax.com>, deac...@yahoo.com
says...

>
>On 22 Jul 2003 22:30:08 -0700, ssch...@aol.com (Serge) wrote:

>>This response may seem out of line, but the slightly condescending
>>tone of the previous message

[snip]

How delightful that the above comment should result in Deacon's reply below.
Especially since Mr. Schepkin has recorded what some of us consider to be
perhaps the finest piano recording of the Goldbergs to date.  His recordings
have even, somehow, managed to find their way into the Penguin Guide!

Simon

>
>There is nothing "out of line" in your posting here, except that you
>expose yourself to comments like my own, which are sometimes glarinly
>frank.
>
>It is nice to see a young musician with strong ideas. And I applaud
>your not wishing to imitate Madame Tureck, whatever your reasons. And
>I trust that you will also not want to be a watered down, updated GG,
>or Feinberg,Landowska or whoever, but a rather strong interpreter on
>your own count.
>
>You are, of course, quite wrong about Tureck, both in detail and in
>the broad picture, but we will leave that aside for the moment. As you
>are a performer yourself, you really must put aside such invidious
>comparisons and get on with your own interpretations, which should be
>able to stand on their own without reference to those of others.
>
>My suggestsion about making  yourself "lless obscure" were not in the
>slightest intended to be condescending. We all are anxious to hear
>young musicians. Specially myself. I travel long distances to do that,
>for no other reason but sheer curiosity. And I buy CDs an an alarming
>rate.
>
>You will be delighted to know that I have ordered some of your
>recordings, at least the ones which are still available (the last two
>Partitas are unavailable, it would seem) and will report on my
>thoughts when I have had a chance to listen for myself. Let us hope
>that you will tolerate those comments as much as you seem to tolerate
>the "joke" of Mr. Hurwitz. My own thoughts are that artists deserve
>better than such nasty putdowns, particularly on the announcement of
>their passing.. Perhaps you disagree. If so, fine. But we do not agree
>on that point.
>
>Making yourself less obscure also entails significant management (your
>name is completely unknown to orchestra  managers and impresarios to
>whom I put it; a bad sign for an artist who wishes to make a career, I
>would suggest), significant appearances and reviews, A Carnegie Hall
>debut, certainly, as well as Wigmore Hall in London,  wide
>distribution of recordings, and so on. Big demands, but you are the
>one wishing to be compared with the greats, I think. Perhaps less time
>on newsgroups and more time with potential managers and presenters
>would help, for a start.
>
>As far as Enice Norton is concerned, I have managed to avoid her
>recordings over the years. I think I will continue that path. Edward
>Jasiewiecz is a name not known to me. Your reference is completely
>lost. Sorry.
>
>Tom Deacon
>
>

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Bob Lombard 7/23/03 6:54 PM
On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 21:24:58 -0400, deac...@yahoo.com wrote:

>We have to remember that we, too, write about music, Arri. But only in
>a casual fashion. We may be among the only ones here who realize  that
>this is NOT the Supreme Court of Music. Mr. Koren. REG, Mr. Tepper (on
>occasion) and others seem to feel differently, however. Silly. This is
>just a chat-room, surely.
>
>Tom Deacon
>
Whatever other differences, if any, there are between rmcr and a
'chat-room', one possibly significant one is that your intellectual
gems are recorded in Google for a while. Bite your tongue Tom.

bl

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged) 7/23/03 7:35 PM
deac...@yahoo.com appears to have caused the following letters to be
typed in news:d6duhvo9i2g1ue8mahk1in0c4p9e7m2vdl@4ax.com:

> On 23 Jul 2003 17:10:26 -0700, abac...@att.net (arri bachrach)
> wrote:
>
>>> > gradually diminishing cult of fans. We shall see. The gods survive.
>>> > It's the high priests and priestesses that come and go, Few remember
>>> > their passing, which of course is only just. Composers matter; works
>>> > matter; performers are ephemeral. That's essential to what classical
>>> > music is.
>>> >
>>> >Dave Hurwitz
>>>
>>>
>>> Perfectly true.
>>>
>>> A worse fate awaits those who write about music, however. Their words
>>> die almost as soon as they are written. One has to ask why they even
>>> bother, given the ephemeral nature of their work.
>>>
>>> Tom Deacon
>>
>>very well said, Tom. I too, often wonder about "those who write about
>>music"
>>
>>AB
>
> We have to remember that we, too, write about music, Arri. But only in
> a casual fashion. We may be among the only ones here who realize  that
> this is NOT the Supreme Court of Music. Mr. Koren. REG, Mr. Tepper (on
> occasion) and others seem to feel differently, however. Silly. This is
> just a chat-room, surely.

Supreme Court?  Of course not.  Les francs-juges, perhaps.  ;--)

Chat room?  Essentially, yes.  But keep in mind that there are some music
industry journalists who read what is posted here.

--
Matthew B. Tepper:  WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Mark Coy tossed off eBay?  http://makeashorterlink.com/?M2B734C02
RMCR's most pointless, dumb and laughable chowderhead:  Mark Coy.

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported REG 7/23/03 7:51 PM
Quite a bit, Tom. And so do the rest of us. And much of it is about you.

<deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:92duhv8cqrahhe0k83vgfelkq0t35f8kvd@4ax.com...


> >
> Problems? Do you know something I don't, REG?
>
>
> Tom Deacon


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Richard Schultz 7/23/03 9:31 PM
In article <9b3uhv41ek8i7i2arfonvohtj2uock5rh6@4ax.com>, deac...@yahoo.com wrote:

: And certainly don't want any California wine.
:
: Vive la France!

You do know the origin of the grapes grown in the wine-producing regions
of France, don't you?

-----
Richard Schultz                              sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing."

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Wayne Reimer 7/23/03 10:41 PM
> In article <aqPSa.10957$852....@twister.nyc.rr.com>, Rich...@hotmail.com says...
> Well, you go from Miss Manners to gauliter rather quickly, don't you. It's
> not appropriate for the press to make a disparaging comment about a
> world-figure who was in fact a bad man, after his death - that kind of
> approach would have pleased Fluffy, I'm sure. Your response, even tongue in
> cheek (or amputated) is far worse.
>
 
Why far worse?  Was this post the first you heard of Karajan's passing?  Was I
not clear that I was not actually recommending the de-tonguing of the bad-
mouther?  It would have left him still able to type up his kind obits, after
all.

wr

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Wayne Reimer 7/24/03 12:33 AM
> In article <68791415.0...@drn.newsguy.com>, David_...@newsguy.com says...
> >
> >You are right in one way, though: my concern with civility was misplaced, and
> >it always would be so, in the context of a thread in which you were a major
> >participant.  They never seem to stay civil for long.  Odd...
> >
> >wr
>
> You talk "civility" out of one side of your mouth, while indulging yourself as
> you please otherwise, by your own admission (and example). The fundamental
> hypocrisy at the root of your argument is that fact that you take a wholly
> relativistic notion of the term ("civility" = not posting a joke, however mildly
> framed, on the occasion of someone's death as the first reply in the thread
> announcing that death--now there's an interesting definition of the term!) and
> use it as an excuse to launch your own attack the 'civility' of which strikes me
> as far more questionable than my original posting--as these things always are.
> Because like it or not, my remark was a legitimate response to the reporting of
> an event (and at least topical with respect to the subject of the thread in
> question) while yours is simply the usual unprovoked personal attack on someone
> whose opinion you happen to dislike for reasons of your own invention.
>
Doesn't work.  You can't claim I'm being hypocritical when I myself didn't
indicate that I was trying to make a case for generally civil behaviour in this
group.  I'm talking about one special circumstance.  It should not be
difficult, even if you don't agree with how it's seen, to figure out that the
first post announcing a musician's recent death in a group devoted to music is
a unique kind of post and that there might be an unusual sensitivity
surrounding it.

And of course civility is a relativistic term - what is fine in one situation
is not acceptable in another.  That is ancient knowledge.  It's not as if I
made that up; it's just the way things are.

> At worst you are simply a hypocrite, at best two wrongs don't make a right.
> Moreover, given that more than a few people here understood the joke perfectly
> well and took no offense at all, the "civil" thing to do, in the truest sense of
> the word, would have been to note that it obviously was not inherently
> offensive, and so despite the fact that some will invariably interpret it that
> way, the best course would be simply to give the poster the benefit of the doubt
> and not assume any malicious intent even though you might find the remark in
> questionable taste. THAT, my friend, is "civility." Now go practice what you
> pretend to preach.
>

So your joke is offensive only if it offends 100% of responders?  That's a new
yardstick that hasn't been proposed before.  I don't think it will work for
100% of rmcrers.  

Anyhow, if you knew that some people would, to use your word, invariably take
your joke as offensive, then you are clearly demonstrating civility only
towards those you think won't be offended.  Seems a little circular, but jeez,
what a great argument!  Let me rephrase how it goes - if you aren't offended,
then I'm being civil, and you are being civil; but if you are offended, I'm
still being civil, but you're not.  Wow!  I really must remember how that neat
flip-flop of reality works, for those times when I'm wrong but really would
rather have others take the blame.

At any rate, keeping quiet when witnessing incivility is hardly a basic tenet
of civility, even though that seems to be your recipe.  And, since I don't
append jokes about them to the death notices of musicians when they appear
here, I am practising what I preach.

wr

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Richard Schultz 7/24/03 1:30 AM
In article <MPG.19892b3c5...@news.sf.sbcglobal.net>, Wayne Reimer <wr...@pacbell.net> wrote:

: And of course civility is a relativistic term -

It only becomes important when you're moving near the speed of light?

-----
Richard Schultz                              sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."

unk...@googlegroups.com 7/24/03 1:54 AM <This message has been deleted.>
Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Bob Lombard 7/24/03 5:25 AM
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 08:24:15 +0000 (UTC), sch...@mail.biu.ack.il
(Richard Schultz) wrote:

>In article <MPG.19892b3c5...@news.sf.sbcglobal.net>, Wayne Reimer <wr...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>: And of course civility is a relativistic term -
>
>It only becomes important when you're moving near the speed of light?
>
It becomes particularly important then, because of the increased mass.

bl

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/24/03 7:02 AM
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 04:30:38 +0000 (UTC), sch...@mail.biu.ack.il
(Richard Schultz) wrote:

>In article <9b3uhv41ek8i7i2arfonvohtj2uock5rh6@4ax.com>, deac...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>: And certainly don't want any California wine.
>:
>: Vive la France!
>
>You do know the origin of the grapes grown in the wine-producing regions
>of France, don't you?
."

The origina of the grape variety has little to do with the soil and
climate in which they are grown. The Shiraz grape produces one thing
in Australia and quite anotehr in Hermitage.

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/24/03 7:03 AM
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 02:51:33 GMT, "REG" <Rich...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Quite a bit, Tom. And so do the rest of us. And much of it is about you.

Oh, good.

Then I need not worry much.

About you I only  know your initials. That is perhaps all I want to
know.

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported deac...@yahoo.com 7/24/03 7:07 AM
On 23 Jul 2003 18:30:29 -0700, Simon Roberts <sd...@comcast.net> wrote:

>
>How delightful that the above comment should result in Deacon's reply below.
>Especially since Mr. Schepkin has recorded what some of us consider to be
>perhaps the finest piano recording of the Goldbergs to date.  His recordings
>have even, somehow, managed to find their way into the Penguin Guide!
>
>Simon

I would not put a great deal of stock in such matters, Simon. I am
sure that you have many opinions on the recommendations of the authors
of that tome and disagree with the majority of them. All of which
makes for lively debate, of course. One man's meat is another man's
poison.

Tom Deacon

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Alain Dagher 7/24/03 2:19 PM
Richard Schultz wrote:
> In article <9b3uhv41ek8i7i2arfonvohtj2uock5rh6@4ax.com>, deac...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> : And certainly don't want any California wine.
> :
> : Vive la France!
>
> You do know the origin of the grapes grown in the wine-producing regions
> of France, don't you?
>


Oh I know: France.

(There was an article in Science about it a couple of years ago I think.)

ad


Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Andrys Basten 7/25/03 2:44 AM
In article <68931837.0...@drn.newsguy.com>,
David Hurwitz  <David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>>David, I believe your intent was what you say it was.  But don't you see
>>that the timing might have hurt someone, and don't you care about that?  If
>>not, I remain very far from understanding how can that be.
>
>I understand that it might have, and I AM sorry if that is the case, but I also
>believe that anyone's right to express their opinion or simply crack a joke in a
>public forum takes precedence over another's right not to be offended.

  Happens every second in zillions of places.  But sometimes the
actual dynamics are more out of the ordinary and complex.


> That is where I stand on this issue. You can't know in advance what will
>or will not set someone off, and that's why these forums exist--to allow
>people the freedom to be themselves, express opinions informally, blow off
>steam, and NOT have to care if someone somewhere takes offense at any
>remark directed at an artist or public figure. I believe that very
>strongly.

  Then try to -not- care that Phil and others were offended or found
it unfunny for the time the joke was made.  

  What you've shown is that you do care that someone *expressed*
their own strong and real reaction to what was said at a
particularly sensitive moment for many, and then you care enough to
insist that what you did should in in no way bother anyone with a
sense of humor.

  So, while -your- expression seems paramount in these places where
 "people are free to be themselves, express opinions informally,
 blow off steam" ...  you are offended because that person or those
persons used their freedom and reacted naturally.

  We then get a humongous thread that denies others' reactions
their validity entirely while speaking for 'freedom' only for
opinions of one's own kind.

  You know I enjoy your opinion-making, so maybe you'll consider
that some of us chose to say nothing rather than join in, but our
point of view isn't displayed.  In other words, some of us didn't
feel free to express our own views because it would just make
things worse.

  But then things got worse anyway.  What got to me was that a
person's death was announced, on the night that there was an
announcement she wouldn't make a musical event after all due to
illness.  That announcement had already been discussed on a couple
of piano forums because her name has years of history behind it,
having to do with music.  That she died -that- night drove it home
more.  

 This is really sad stuff to a number of us.  Like you, I was not
at one with her choice of tempos for Bach, but that's really beside
the point.  It's a joke that COULD have been made later about the
first thought that sprang to your mind.  Most of us have written
posts that are pretty blase and callous, but I think the time of
death is a strong one for many.

 Maybe some have known too many people who died and have
experienced the sudden loss of persons felt very important to them.
It will bring feelings back.  
 

>they do not share. Really Phil, was that little joke THAT threatening?

  Not at all.  It just was jolting because it seemed so insensitive.
The 'joke' was evident and it's not that people don't "get" it or
don't enjoy humor.  


>person? If it isn't Tureck, it will be something else, because
>such people are looking for a focus for their anger and misery, or
>whatever other chip they have on their shoulders.

That's convenient to believe.  But not so in a case like this one.
Some won't be bothered.  But some definitely genuinely will be.
Most of us would say nothing except that this thread keeps growing
and the same things are being said and others' own reactions to
what was said are still being discounted.  To the extent you write
it off as personality flaws that they feel this way.

  Mainly, say what you feel when you want, but don't expect that
others won't say what they feel and also have that 'freedom' to
express.  It's not a matter of silencing your thoughts, but your
responses against others' own responses are getting stronger in
assigning constant states of anger as the only cause of an almost
certainly genuine reaction to something that left many wide-eyed.

  - Andrys

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Bob Lombard 7/25/03 5:47 AM
On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 09:44:22 +0000 (UTC), and...@panix.com (Andrys
Basten) wrote:

[long conciliatory message clipped


>  Mainly, say what you feel when you want, but don't expect that
>others won't say what they feel and also have that 'freedom' to
>express.  It's not a matter of silencing your thoughts, but your
>responses against others' own responses are getting stronger in
>assigning constant states of anger as the only cause of an almost
>certainly genuine reaction to something that left many wide-eyed.
>
>  - Andrys

If you and Phil are done patting Dave on the shoulder, I'll pass on a
bit of philosophy I learned from a rather world-weary acquaintance.

"All of us take the opportunity to be an asshole at one time and
another. There seems to be no avoiding it. The best we can do is admit
the lapse, express regrets, and get on with it."

The viability of this mantra as well as its relevance to the current
brouhaha? YMMV

bl

Death of Pianist Rosalyn Tureck Reported Jan Winter 7/29/03 12:50 PM
On 22 Jul 2003 17:17:15 -0700, dag...@comcast.net (John Gavin) wrote:

>deac...@yahoo.com wrote in message news:<9rrqhvk5fn353vufp2m93srgmha7sl29ti@4ax.com>...
>> On 22 Jul 2003 09:40:31 -0700, dag...@comcast.net (John Gavin) wrote:
>>
>> Incidentally, this makes the 200th post on the subject of Rosalyn
>> Tureck. If she had been what Hurwitz and others claimed, nobody would
>> have bothered to write so much about her.
>
>Well, actually it's the 200th post mostly on the subject of Tureck &
>Gould to be realistic.  Along the same lines, do a Google search some
>day, just on rmcr, to see how many times since it's inception the
>names Glenn Gould and Rosalyn Tureck come up in discussions.  I'll bet
>you, without any exageration that the ratio is about 100:1.

The ratio is more like 8:1. Glenn Gould = 4990 (+ 201 for Glen Gould);
Rosalyn Tureck = 639 (+ 1 for Rosalyn Turek).

But are these numbers in any way indicative for the quality of the
artist, as Mr Deacon seems to imply? The name of Charlotte Church came
up 57,400 times in r.m.c.r.

--
Jan Winter, Amsterdam
< j.wi...@xs4all.nl >
< www.catcharabbit.com >

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