corporate funding for Shen

Showing 1-10 of 10 messages
corporate funding for Shen Mark Tarver 12/17/13 6:34 AM
Hello John,

Your post is important and got buried, so I've resurrected it under a new thread. 

I had decided to put the funding question on the backburner till after the completion of TBoS 2nd edition.  This is almost done and will go off to the printer about January 2nd 2014.   

I had made an analysis of the funding question and thoroughly agree with your general slant.  If you look at all the successful open source projects, at some point company money does have to get involved and I believe we are now at the point where this is the logical way forward.   Linux without corporate cash would be far less successful than it is.

I've begun exploring this opening already and the initial response was encouraging.   The video was described as 'very clever'.  The CEO was amazed that a group of programmers could cooperatively produce so many implementations without ever meeting.  'You guys never met!!?" was asked more than once.   He was clearly impressed with the collective achievements of this group.

As I've said, I've just begun this process and the Xmas season will mark a break.  I'll pick up in January and I'll mail now and again about this process, but like most business discussions, I have to conduct them in a degree of confidence. It is also likely to take some time, and the interaction of the participants will make the process more complex as we enlist more partners.   Eventually I hope we will have an equitable outcome which will benefit every person here who has made a contribution.

We have collectively developed something quite special and anybody who has worked with Shen is aware of the potential of this work .  Translating this technology into something that can positively change the world requires me to shift gear from scientist to business analyst.  I have a clear idea of the way forward here.  On the part of the Shenturions, this period will call for a little patience as the technical details are worked through.   

Mark


On Monday, 14 October 2013 21:21:32 UTC+1, John Bell wrote:
Hi Mark,

I've been lurking around here for quite some time, but this is my first post.  This Shen thread reminds me very much of this Clojure thread from 2010:

The end result of which was: http://clojure.org/funders

429 individuals (I was one of them) and 9 companies supporting Clojure development

I'm not sure how much that brought in but Rich suggested $100 for individuals.  So, I think it is possible for a group to band together to support something like language development.  I would recommend something like that Clojure funders page for Shen.  It is not so much about people getting recognition for contributing (although I don't think that is a bad thing) but about people feeling like they belong to a community.  I would go so far as to say that if someone doesn't want their name on the page that they be listed at the end as Anonymous just so people can see that the project is supported.

I think Shen (like Clojure) has to reach critical mass before you (and others) can make money off of it.  Rich ended up abandoning the funding by individuals because he thought their expectations concerning how much input they should have into the direction Clojure was heading was unrealistic, but I'm guessing he's doing just fine now anyway.

I would encourage you not to abandon the open source model.  I can't see any new language gaining widespread adoption otherwise--regardless of how innovative it is.

Also, you can still sell support contracts while keeping the code open (see SQLite).

Concerning the book, I suggest you to look into publishing with Pragmatic Programmers.  I can't imagine that you will make more by getting a larger slice of a much smaller pie.  I know I've bought books I wouldn't have discovered without their marketing.  And their Beta Book review process is awesome.

Anyway, best of luck and I look forward to the release of the book.

John

Re: corporate funding for Shen Jacob 12/17/13 8:43 AM
I really love Shen and I think you are a great guy Mark but(you knew there was an interjection with that type of butt kissing lead) this is a very vague post.  I have no idea what this post means...   Does it mean that if Shen receives funding that the direction of Shen will change?  What would that "change" be?  So far, I can only infer from the post that the Shen project needs money and that is about it.

"Translating this technology into something that can positively change the world requires me to shift gear from scientist to business analyst"

AGH, what does this mean? 

I am not trying to be a jerk btw, I just really get excited about Shen hitting "mainstream" and I want to know more!
Re: corporate funding for Shen Jacob 12/18/13 10:01 PM
Btw, I know we talked about primary platform before and all but I have since learned some things that might interest you...

http://www.rfk.id.au/blog/entry/pypy-js-poc-jit/

http://morepypy.blogspot.com/2013/10/update-on-stm.html

Also the cffi is really nice and there is a promised 0 overhead for c calls.  Since python is a good bit like LISP maybe python would be more enticing as a primary platform?

Also there is this...

http://docs.hylang.org/en/latest/index.html

It is exciting but it is not Shen(therefore it is inferior)






On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 9:34:45 AM UTC-5, Mark Tarver wrote:
Re: corporate funding for Shen Mark Tarver 12/24/13 7:03 AM
Right now it's too early to give out more - things will become clearer in time.

Mark
Re: corporate funding for Shen jgrant27 12/26/13 2:10 PM
I'm ecstatic to hear that you're already working on this Mark. I haven't been here for a while but I decide to come back and then get to hear this great news !
I'm really short on programming time these days but if there's any other way that I can contribute, please let me know. 
You should also know that I've bought every edition of every book you print just on principle alone :-)
Of course I've also read every one of them for their ground-breaking content. Phenomenal work on all fronts !
Re: corporate funding for Shen Mark Tarver 1/8/14 7:33 AM
Thanks; we're at the beginning of a difficult and complex process.  Not only have we got ground-breaking technology, we also have to create a ground-breaking model of corporate cooperation that benefits all parties.  

Mark
Re: corporate funding for Shen Mark Tarver 2/2/14 11:04 AM


On Tuesday, 17 December 2013 16:43:53 UTC, Jacob wrote:
I really love Shen and I think you are a great guy Mark but(you knew there was an interjection with that type of butt kissing lead) this is a very vague post.  I have no idea what this post means...   Does it mean that if Shen receives funding that the direction of Shen will change?  What would that "change" be?  So far, I can only infer from the post that the Shen project needs money and that is about it.

Absolutely; we're not going anywhere w.o. sorting the money issue out.   Dull, yes, necessary, absolutely.

 

"Translating this technology into something that can positively change the world requires me to shift gear from scientist to business analyst"

AGH, what does this mean? 

I am not trying to be a jerk btw, I just really get excited about Shen hitting "mainstream" and I want to know more!

The economic model I am aiming at is a hybrid model; this was the original conception that I had for Babel.  The code divides into

Shen kernel code ......  Shen license (i.e. $free, hackable but must work)
Editor code      ......  BSD (do as thou wilt)
Extensions for editing VHDL, C etc.  ......  free choice

The editor is therefore available $free to all with readable sources.  There is no GPL because I want people (not just me) to be capable of placing proprietary extensions to Babel.  Par excellence it is intended to be programmable.   Originally I intended that Shen under Java was going to be used, but too much FUD was generated around that port for me to go with that.  We lost some time over that port, but never mind.

But I can certainly build a Shen/CL-TCL/tk version which will work well.  If needed, the work could be ported to other platforms.  Ramil and I have both, independently, created interfaces from CL to TCL/tk and I need to test them.

But in order for group members to program Babel they need a layer of theoretical knowledge about the use of Shen-YACC, Shen and verification technology.  In theory one could arrive at this from first principles by reading TBoS, but actually the journey is not an easy one and requires some deep knowledge not covered even in TBoS.  So I would have to sit down and write a book explaining how those things can be done.  Once people have grasped the approach, they can use the techniques to write their own Babel extensions. So you will be able to program Babel to help your work in VHDL, Java etc and hopefully sell your skills or work.   The Ring itself would be embedded inside Babel.
 
This book already exists in part and it shows how to construct such a technology for a subset of the C programming language.  This is the text The Specification of Programming Languages, referred to near the end of TBoS.  I have about 100 pages written.

However the economics needed to sustain all this is still not fixed and this is what I'm struggling to correct.  'Shut up and code' will not hack it.  In 2011, money had to come in to make Shen happen.  In 2014 we are in the same situation.  This time I am looking for a definitive solution.   Once I find it, you will be surprised at how fast things will move.

Mark




On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 9:34:45 AM UTC-5, Mark Tarver wrote:
Hello John,

Your post is important and got buried, so I've resurrected it under a new thread. 

I had decided to put the funding question on the backburner till after the completion of TBoS 2nd edition.  This is almost done and will go off to the printer about January 2nd 2014.   

I had made an analysis of the funding question and thoroughly agree with your general slant.  If you look at all the successful open source projects, at some point company money does have to get involved and I believe we are now at the point where this is the logical way forward.   Linux without corporate cash would be far less successful than it is.

I've begun exploring this opening already and the initial response was encouraging.   The video was described as 'very clever'.  The CEO was amazed that a group of programmers could cooperatively produce so many implementations without ever meeting.  'You guys never met!!?" was asked more than once.   He was clearly impressed with the collective achievements of this group.

As I've said, I've just begun this process and the Xmas season will mark a break.  I'll pick up in January and I'll mail now and again about this process, but like most business discussions, I have to conduct them in a degree of confidence. It is also likely to take some time, and the interaction of the participants will make the process more complex as we enlist more partners.   Eventually I hope we will have an equitable outcome which will benefit every person here who has made a contribution.

We have collectively developed something quite special and anybody who has worked with Shen is aware of the potential of this work .  Translating this technology into something that can positively change the world requires me to shift gear from scientist to business analyst.  I have a clear idea of the way forward here.  On the part of the Shenturions, this period will call for a little patience as the technical details are worked through.   

Mark


On Monday, 14 October 2013 21:21:32 UTC+1, John Bell wrote:
Hi Mark,

I've been lurking around here for quite some time, but this is my first post.  This Shen thread reminds me very much of this Clojure thread from 2010:

The end result of which was: http://clojure.org/funders

429 individuals (I was one of them) and 9 companies supporting Clojure development

I'm not sure how much that brought in but Rich suggested $100 for individuals.  So, I think it is possible for a group to band together to support something like language development.  I would recommend something like that Clojure funders page for Shen.  It is not so much about people getting recognition for contributing (although I don't think that is a bad thing) but about people feeling like they belong to a community.  I would go so far as to say that if someone doesn't want their name on the page that they be listed at the end as Anonymous just so people can see that the project is supported.

I think Shen (like Clojure) has to reach critical mass before you (and others) can make money off of it.  Rich ended up abandoning the funding by individuals because he thought their expectations concerning how much input they should have into the direction Clojure was heading was unrealistic, but I'm guessing he's doing just fine now anyway.

I would encourage you not to abandon the open source model.  I can't see any new language gaining widespread adoption otherwise--regardless of how innovative it is.

Also, you can still sell support contracts while keeping the code open (see SQLite).

Concerning the book, I suggest you to look into publishing with Pragmatic Programmers.  I can't imagine that you will make more by getting a larger slice of a much smaller pie.  I know I've bought books I wouldn't have discovered without their marketing.  And their Beta Book review process is awesome.

Anyway, best of luck and I look forward to the release of the book.

John

Re: corporate funding for Shen Jacob 2/4/14 8:56 PM
I know I have spammed this forum with many targets... so in keeping with tradition; asm.js, through emscripten, might be another nice target.  For example, if one was to get Shen to spit out c code it could then be ran through emscripten and run on the web.  Kill two birds with "one" stone, runs on the web and runs on the metal.  Just some more random target ideas for anyone perusing the forums.
Re: corporate funding for Shen Marko Kocić 2/5/14 2:06 AM
Why go through C and Emscripten then? If you want to target Asm.js, why not just generate it directly as a target? I bet that generating ams.js code directly, would be simpler and more performant then going the C route. And you could even re-use lots of code from JS port, since Asm.js code is in its core just a regular javscript that browser developers decided to specifically optimize for.

Cheers,
Marko


On Wednesday, February 5, 2014 5:56:45 AM UTC+1, Jacob wrote:
I know I have spammed this forum with many targets... so in keeping with tradition; asm.js, through emscripten, might be another nice target.  For example, if one was to get Shen to spit out c code it could then be ran through emscripten and run on the web.  Kill two birds with "one" stone, runs on the web and runs on the metal.  Just some more random target ideas for anyone perusing the forums.
Re: corporate funding for Shen Ramil Farkhshatov 2/5/14 12:00 AM
Jacob <submissio...@gmx.com> wrote:

> I know I have spammed this forum with many targets... so in keeping with
> tradition; asm.js, through emscripten, might be another nice target.  For
> example, if one was to get Shen to spit out c code it could then be ran
> through emscripten and run on the web.  Kill two birds with "one" stone,
> runs on the web and runs on the metal.  Just some more random target ideas
> for anyone perusing the forums.

Shen can already run on the web[1]. I thought about asm.js but haven't
got a clue about how it can be employed in case of Shen.

1. https://github.com/gravicappa/shen-js
> > technology for a subset of the C programming language.  This is the text T*he
> > Specification of Programming Languages*, referred to near the end of
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