How about embracing PHP 5.4 for Propel2?

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How about embracing PHP 5.4 for Propel2? Francois Zaninotto 7/29/12 9:49 AM
Hi list,

I've always been reluctant to raise the version requirements for Propel. As of now, Propel2 requires PHP5.3.3, but I have good reasons to believe we should raise that to 5.4.

Propel2 is only embracing PHP5.3 only now, and two of is main features (Late Static Binding and Namespaces) have major implications on the entire architecture. Using traits for the core (not optionally) would transform the architecture even more dramatically, and would pave the path for extremely powerful features and extensivity.

Behaviors are the first to come to mind, but traits also allow true PoPo (Plain Old Php Objects) to become ActiveRecord objects without using inheritance. I'm not talking about abandoning code generation. Propel's use of code generation, both for speed and for IDE friendliness, is our signature. I'm talking about generated traits. Besides, there are numerous parts in Propel that could be refactored into traits, even be released as standalone libraries (think about the ConditionalProxy for ModelCriteria for instance). Lastly, traits will be used by the end users, for sure, to extend their model classes. How can they understand that Propel misses this opportunity?

There is a question of timing. Propel2 will hopefully be out in late 2012. At this time, leveraging the PHP 5.3 features will be a minimum. Not leveraging the PHP 5.4 features will probably be a mistake, since we can't wait for a new major refactoring (in three years?). Other ORMs, other libraries already make the jump, and we need Propel to be in the first league.

I think Propel2 should require PHP5.4. What's your opinion?

Cheers,

François


Re: [propel-dev] How about embracing PHP 5.4 for Propel2? William DURAND 7/29/12 11:47 PM
Heya,

I talked a lot with Jordi Boggiano (Composer, Monolog, ...) about that. In his opinion, Propel2 should use 5.4, it should be "the PHP 5.4 ORM".

Today, Propel 1.6 is able to scale from PHP 5.2.4 to 5.4 latest version. In one hand this is awesome because everybody can use Propel. In another hand it's a pain to maintain, and Propel2 is coming to ease our life as developers.

I'd love to say "let's use 5.4" but as far as I know, it's not widespread yet. But, there are already some discussions about 5.5 features, and I think being stuck in 5.3 now will require yet another hard and long work to leverage the 5.5 features.

Do you want, guys, bumping the minimum PHP version to 5.4 now?

I see two options:

- we use our current "refactoring timeframe" to break everything, before a first stable version;
- we release a first unstable version soon (before the end of August), and then we start a new iteration for Propel 2.1.

What do you think guys?

William


2012/7/29 Francois Zaninotto <fzani...@gmail.com>


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Re: [propel-dev] How about embracing PHP 5.4 for Propel2? Joss17 7/30/12 12:36 AM
I think it's the right move on the right time to use php 5.4 for
propel2 : Luckily propel1 is very strong and thus propel2 can be
delayed to meet nice technical requirements.
I think the idea of an unstable version without php5.4 requirements
and then a 2.1 version with php 5.4 is not much usefull and will be
confusing and hard to maintain.

Bye

2012/7/30, William Durand <william...@gmail.com>:
Re: [propel-dev] How about embracing PHP 5.4 for Propel2? Francois Zaninotto 7/30/12 12:39 AM
Like Josselin, I think we should go all in and raise the version requirement now.

2012/7/30 Josselin Jacquard <josselin...@gmail.com>

Re: [propel-dev] How about embracing PHP 5.4 for Propel2? Joss17 7/30/12 12:42 AM
PS : it's not directly linked, but an interested work could be to make
the units tests more easy to bootstrap, i find it actually hard to
make it work and this has prevented me for contributing to bugfixing.

Bye

2012/7/30, Josselin Jacquard <josselin...@gmail.com>:
Re: [propel-dev] How about embracing PHP 5.4 for Propel2? Francois Zaninotto 7/30/12 12:43 AM
What's hard? Just launch one command and it does the bootstrapping for you...

2012/7/30 Josselin Jacquard <josselin...@gmail.com>

Re: [propel-dev] How about embracing PHP 5.4 for Propel2? William DURAND 7/30/12 12:47 AM
Yes, it's easier in Propel2 than in Propel 1.6 (even if it's quite easy since we have a shell script to run everything). The only issue is that we need more than one database to run the complete test suite.

In Propel I reduced the number of databases, but it still needs one database and three schemas... I think we should group tests whether they rely on the database or not. But it's another discussion.

William

2012/7/30 Francois Zaninotto <fzani...@gmail.com>

Re: [propel-dev] How about embracing PHP 5.4 for Propel2? Joss17 7/30/12 12:51 AM
2012/7/30, William Durand <william...@gmail.com>:
> Yes, it's easier in Propel2 than in Propel 1.6 (even if it's quite easy
> since we have a shell script to run everything). The only issue is that we
> need more than one database to run the complete test suite.
>
> In Propel I reduced the number of databases, but it still needs one
> database and three schemas... I think we should group tests whether they
> rely on the database or not. But it's another discussion.
>
> William
>
> 2012/7/30 Francois Zaninotto <fzani...@gmail.com>
>
>> What's hard? Just launch one command and it does the bootstrapping for
>> you...

Ok, I will start another thread on this later on, maybe i didnt get it right.
Bye
Re: [propel-dev] How about embracing PHP 5.4 for Propel2? Marius Ghita 7/30/12 1:36 AM
+1 for 5.4

It would be nice to be able to make a trait out of the PropelCollection methods and that trait swapable at generation time via a custom trait.Google+: https://plus.google.com/111881868112036203454

Re: [propel-dev] How about embracing PHP 5.4 for Propel2? Francois Zaninotto 7/30/12 1:40 AM
Swapping traits at runtime is another question... Traits are compile-time features.

2012/7/30 Marius Ghita <mhi...@gmail.com>

Re: [propel-dev] How about embracing PHP 5.4 for Propel2? Marius Ghita 7/30/12 3:45 AM
Yes, I know; that's why I said generation time.

The more things swapable, the better in my opinion.
Re: How about embracing PHP 5.4 for Propel2? Ludo 7/30/12 5:41 AM
I'm expecting this from Propel 2. Next gen ORM should move right now, Trait are really relevant for this kind of tool.
Hope you guys will use all the goodness of 5.4
Re: How about embracing PHP 5.4 for Propel2? Toni Uebernickel 7/30/12 5:46 AM
+1 on 5.4
Re: How about embracing PHP 5.4 for Propel2? Jonathan Ingram 7/30/12 7:06 AM
I'd like to say, yes, raise the requirement to 5.4, but unfortunately, if that was done I doubt I'd be able to use Propel 2 since there is currently no (or little) adoption by the vendors (from what I can find). Thus, I'd never be able to use Propel2. On the other hand, if you think that Propel2 using 5.4 can advocate a bigger push to move for faster and more frequent PHP releases and upgrades (by the vendors), that would be amazing. Otherwise, I suspect there could never be a large adoption of Propel2 for a while.
Re: [propel-dev] Re: How about embracing PHP 5.4 for Propel2? Francois Zaninotto 7/30/12 7:58 AM
Which vendors are you referring to?

2012/7/30 Jonathan Ingram <jonathan...@gmail.com>
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Re: [propel-dev] Re: How about embracing PHP 5.4 for Propel2? Peter Dietrich 7/30/12 8:07 AM
Same though I had when talking about version requirements: "Cheap hosters" (thinking about 1&1 or Strato in Germany) did not even upgrade to 5.3 yet on their standard entry packages.
One can argue that those small packages are not meant to be used for real applications where Propel should be used, but it happens. (same issues I had with silex, e.g., as it requires 5.3 and really IS a good fit for creating small websites)

None the less, I really think a "future oriented project" like Propel2 is allowed to go that step since, as already said
- it has a solid predecessor with 1.6.x
- it can benefit from the new options available.

I would strongly object to branch off a 2.0 => 5.3 and have 2.1 => 5.4, to much hassle (docs, BC, parallel maintenance, ...)

+1 for 5.4, knowing that it might mean fallbacks to 1.6 are required in projects with limitations due to server hosting constraints

2012/7/30 Francois Zaninotto <fzani...@gmail.com>

Which vendors are you referring to?

Re: [propel-dev] How about embracing PHP 5.4 for Propel2? cristianoc72 7/30/12 9:39 AM
+1 for 5.4. About the roadmap, the question is: how long will it take
to implement the new 5.4-only features? If we estimate that it'll take
3 - 5 months, I think it's better to postpone Propel 2.0 alpha, to
release it with all new features. If we think it'll take more than 5
months, I'm agree with William: 2.0 with 5.3 features, then 2.1 with
5.4 ones.

Cristiano
Re: [propel-dev] How about embracing PHP 5.4 for Propel2? Grzegorz Godlewski 7/30/12 10:08 AM
IMHO 2.0 should use 5.4 from the very beginning. The architectural and
performance differences between PHP 5.3 and 5.4 are huge, and suggesting
(by version transition from 2.0 to 2.1) a minor update can be harmful
for those who don't read the changelogs. As Josselin pointed out (BTW,
+1 on that one Josselin!):

 > Luckily propel1 is very strong and thus propel2 can be delayed to
meet nice technical requirements.

I'm not a part of the propel-dev team, but as a user I would wait those
few months more just to get a library that's getting 100% of
architectural and performance capabilities given by the language itself.
In fact I think that if Propel2 would be based on PHP 5.4 it would
encourage upgrading server software to reach the community requirements.
And still be more ahead of Doctrine ;)

Greg

W dniu 2012-07-30 18:39, Cristiano Cinotti pisze:
Re: [propel-dev] How about embracing PHP 5.4 for Propel2? Tomasz Budzyński 7/30/12 12:09 PM
+1 for 5.4
I'm using Propel, don't have to much time to help to develop this
great project, but i think that 5.4 should be the requirement. This
version is from 1 march, so it is almost 5 months. I don't think that
something will change at hosting servers in next half year. But back
to the Propel. If You want to use traits then use them from the
beginning, You will save time and then only optimize. If someone don't
have PHP5.4 then he has Propel1.6


--
Tomasz 'Sh4dow' Budzyński
Re: [propel-dev] Re: How about embracing PHP 5.4 for Propel2? Jonathan Ingram 7/30/12 3:07 PM
I'm talking about a RHEL-based distro from AWS EC2 which is the default distro I believe for new EC2 instances (which is what we use in our company). I've found a few articles examining how 5.4 cod be setup on these, but my point is that it's not as simple as I'd like it to be.  FYI I am also not a Propel dev. I am a Doctrine user and I keep in touch with Propel2 deb because I see it potentially replacing Doctrine (for my work).
Re: [propel-dev] Re: How about embracing PHP 5.4 for Propel2? Milan Brezovsky 8/2/12 12:24 AM
I'm all for PHP5.4, as traits are a perfect match for Propel and can move it forward - more code reuse in generated classes.

For those waiting to get started with PHP5.4 on Ubuntu, here's a helpful link: https://launchpad.net/~lauris-nix/+archive/dev

For those looking for affordable hosting, Dreamhost always offered shell access and the ability to compile your own PHP there. I'm quite happy with them.
Re: [propel-dev] Re: How about embracing PHP 5.4 for Propel2? Francois Zaninotto 8/2/12 1:49 AM
Ok, lots of positive feedback. William, what's your final call?

François

2012/8/2 Milan Brezovsky <anal...@gmail.com>
I'm all for PHP5.4, as traits are a perfect match for Propel and can move it forward - more code reuse in generated classes.

For those waiting to get started with PHP5.4 on Ubuntu, here's a helpful link: https://launchpad.net/~lauris-nix/+archive/dev

For those looking for affordable hosting, Dreamhost always offered shell access and the ability to compile your own PHP there. I'm quite happy with them.

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Re: [propel-dev] Re: How about embracing PHP 5.4 for Propel2? William DURAND 8/2/12 1:53 AM
I keep this thread opened until next Monday where I will make the final decision.

William

2012/8/2 Francois Zaninotto <fzani...@gmail.com>

Re: [propel-dev] How about embracing PHP 5.4 for Propel2? Youx 8/12/12 2:03 AM
+1 for 5.4, use of traits in the core will be a strong evolution making
Propel2 a major improvement on Propel1.6 than it was firstly decided.
Lo�c

Le 29/07/2012 18:49, Francois Zaninotto a �crit :
> Fran�ois
Re: [propel-dev] Re: How about embracing PHP 5.4 for Propel2? Youx 8/12/12 2:09 AM
I don't think a project like Propel has to wait for wide adoption of a
version of PHP by hosters : most of us expect Propel2 to be a stable and
smart project for years and the use of last PHP features are really what
will make it worth to use.
Morevoer I do believe that PHP new versions adoption by hosters in the
future is also related to our needs, we have our (small) word to say
about it. Finally, I imagine that many of us use Propel on dedicated
servers, isn't it ?
Lo�c

Le 02/08/2012 09:24, Milan Brezovsky a �crit :
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