Let it Go - In Lojban

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Let it Go - In Lojban Joshua Anon 6/6/14 2:16 PM
I decided to translate 'Let it Go' from 'Frozen' into Lojban; but given that I'm doing this as a convenient way to utilize Lojban as I'm learning it: I am sure I have made many mistakes. I have placed the Lojban translation on the left with the corresponding English version of what I think I said in Lojban on the right. If the two don't basically match up line for line, than I have made a mistake. I have not translated the attitudinals when they occur at the beginning of a bridi. At the end I have some specific questions about things I am unsure of or suspect are wrong.

This probably goes without saying, but I don't own any rights to Lojban nor to the movie 'Frozen' or it's song 'Let it Go'.


a1. .aunai snime cu carvi le cmana              Snow precipitates upon the mountain.
a2. .i vi claxu lo pluta                        Here there is no path.
a3. .i mi sepli fe loi remna                    I am apart from people.
a4. .i mi simlu lo turni                        I appear to relate in some way to the act of governing.

a5. .i tcima cu simsa le mi menli sevzi         The weather is similar in property to the mind of myself.
a6. .i .ii mi fliba lo sezyfanta                I fail at the control of myself.

a7. .i ko na curmi lo viska                     You! (talking to self) Don't allow observance/seeing.
a8. .i ko vrude lo do natmi marde               You! (talking to self) Act so that you can rightly be deemed virtuous by the moral standards of your people group.
a9. .i ko mipri fi le tcadu                     You! (talking to self) Keep a secret from the city.
a0. .i ri djuno                                 The city knows.

b1. .i zifcru .i zifcru                         Release; Release.
b2. .i do na jitro fe do                        It is not true that you (talking to self) control yourself.
b3. .i zifcru .i zifcru                         Release; Release.
b4. .i ko do'o se ganlo                         You! (talking to self) Make it so that access to you is denied to you and others.
b5. .i cusku na selxanka mi                     I do not worry about some unspecified someone expressing some unspecified something.
b6. .i ko curmi ti                              You! (talking to self) Allow this.
b7. .i .o'enai mi nelci lo lenku                .o'enai I am fond of cold.

b8. .i minli darno lo sevzi darno cu gasnu      The literal distance brings about self-distance.
b9. .i lono jitro terpa cu pagre fi mi .u'e     None of the controlling fears enter the wondrous {.u'e} me.
b0. .i mi facki lo kakne mi                     I discover the ability of myself.
c1. .i lo mi facki cu bancu                     My discovery exceeds a limit.
c2. .i .ia zi'o marde fi mi                     .ia non-existant are morals applying to me.
c3. .einai                                      Freedom.

c4. .i zifcru .i zifcru                         Release; Release.
c5. .i .uo mi brife joi tsani                   .uo I am the wind and the sky.
c6. .i zifcru .i zifcru                         Release; Release.
c7. .i mi na'e klaku                            I will not be crying.
c8. .i mi vi stali joi stodi                    I abide in one place and I am invariant.
c9. .i curmi snime                              The permitted snow.

c0. .i benji lo mi vlipa lo loldi fu ti         My power is transfered to the ground via this.
d1. .i mi cupra lo spisa bisli lo pruxi sevzi   I produce particulated crystal by means of my spiritual self.
d2. .i lo pa bisli spoja pensi cu dunja         One frozen exploding thought congeals.
d3. .i mi noroi xruti lo sevzi lo purci         I am never returning myself to a state from the past.

d4. .i zifcru .i zifcru                         Release; Release.
d5. .i pe'a mi vu cermurse                      Figuratively, I am the dawn there yonder.
d6. .i zifcru .i zifcru                         Release; Release.
d7. .i drani cu canci                           Perfection vanishes.
d8. .i mi vi sanli lo cerni                     I stand here upon the day.
d9. .i curmi snime                              The permitted snow.
d0. .i o'enai mi nelci lo lenku                 .o'enai I am fond of cold.


a1: Should I use {lo} in place of {le} here?
a3: Is {loi} correct here? or should it be {lo} or {lo'i}?
a4: I tried working around {nolraitru}, but the syllabry wouldn't come out, so {turni} it is.
a5: Is this even a valid grammatical construct? Can the words be used in this way?
a7: I am made to understand that it is ok to use {ko} to command oneself if the context makes this usage evident.
a8: Does this bridi communicate the correct general concept?
a0: Is {ri} used correctly here?
b1: Would {zifre} work better here? I'm on the fence about which to use.
b4: Did I get any sumti places mixed up here?
b5: Did I get any sumti places mixed up here?
b8: Can anyone think of a better way to phrase this? It needs to have 13 syllables and it would be prefferable if the syllabry was fixed. Try singing it; the stress is wrong.
b9: The {.u'e} is modifying {mi} to fix syllabry problems. Also, is {lono} used correctly here?
c2: Can {zi'o} be used in this way?
c3: The problem is that it technically modifies {mi}, but there is a pause in the song, so it should be ok, right?
c5: Not sure if this sentence means what I think it means.
c7: Is {na'e} the correct cmavo to use here?
c8: Again, not sure if this sentence means what I think it means.
c9: An observative.
d1: I'm not sure about {pruxi sevzi}. Is there a better pair of gismu that would communicate the concept of 'soul'?
d3: Is {noroi} used correctly here?
d5: Is {pe'a} used correctly? Is {vu} used correctly?


Thanks you for your time,

djac.
Re: Let it Go - In Lojban Joshua Anon 6/8/14 8:13 AM
c2: If I eliminated {.ia} and annexed a {vau} or {.i} to the end of this line, would that fix the problem of {.einai} modifying {mi}?
Re: [lojban] Re: Let it Go - In Lojban aionys 6/8/14 8:46 AM
{vau} would make {.einai} apply to the entire bridi. You may want to consider {nunzi'e} instead- {.einai} means "freedom" as in not feeling as though X is something you have to do, not "freedom" as in "freedom of speech".



On Sun, Jun 8, 2014 at 9:13 AM, Joshua Anon <jt...@mail.com> wrote:
c2: If I eliminated {.ia} and annexed a {vau} or {.i} to the end of this line, would that fix the problem of {.einai} modifying {mi}?

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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
Re: [lojban] Re: Let it Go - In Lojban Joshua Anon 6/8/14 2:38 PM
So how about:

c2. .i zi'o marde fi mi .i                     Non-existant are morals applying to me.
c3. nunzi'e                                    Freedom.


That solves both problems you mentioned, correct?
Re: [lojban] Re: Let it Go - In Lojban aionys 6/8/14 4:05 PM
Yes, but you don't need to get rid of {.ia} if you don't want to.
Re: [lojban] Re: Let it Go - In Lojban Joshua Anon 6/9/14 1:28 PM
To get the right number of syllables, I would have to remove {.ia} because I would be adding an {.i} to the end of c2.
Re: [lojban] Let it Go - In Lojban Wuzzy 6/10/14 12:49 PM
Good that you asked for help!

Okay, let’s start with the most serious mistakes: Grammatical mistakes.

First, missing articles:

> a1. .aunai snime cu carvi le cmana
Not grammatical. “snime” is probably missing a “lo” or “loi”.

> a5. .i tcima cu simsa le mi menli sevzi
“tcima” without article …

> b5. .i cusku na selxanka mi
again, no article for “cusku”


Remember: All sumti have to have an article. The reason for this:
Otherwise they would look like the brivla (the predicate word) and it
would not be possible to tell predicate word from sumti apart.

Different grammatical failures:
> a2. .i vi claxu lo pluta
> Here there is no path.
“vi” expects a sumti after it to indicate the location.
Without that, the sentence is not grammatically correct.
But you can “vi” also without sumti, if you use a “ku” after it.
(“vi ku”). This means something like “around here, you know what place
I am referring to” (I guess).

I am not sure with this one:
> c0. .i benji lo mi vlipa lo loldi fu ti
> My power is transfered to the ground via this.
Careful! “lo mi broda” is the same as “lo broda pe mi”.
And “pe” is only weak association. I am not sure if you wanted this.
A stronger association needs “po” (if you meant it that way) and can
not be shortened.
Additionally, “lo vlipa” already refers to the powerful one, so it
should be “lo se vlipa”. Since the powerful one is already part of the
“vlipa” predicate, you can, much more elegantly, use “be” instead to
refer to an argument of the sumti. So:

“lo se vlipa be mi” or, condensed “lo selvli be mi” (“The power of me”)

Poor tanru:


> c9. .i curmi snime
> The permitted snow.
Nope. “lo curmi” is the permitter. So this tanru would probably more
mean something like “the permitter snow”.
The permitted thing is “lo se curmi”. So:
“.i se curmi snime” or, condensed: “.i selcru snime” for
something like “permitted snow”.
But apart from that, as an observational it is perfectly OK.

> d2. .i lo pa bisli spoja pensi cu dunja
> One frozen exploding thought congeals.
“lo pensi” refers to the thinker, not the thought. The thought is “lo
se pensi”, or short: “lo selpei”. So I suggest:
“lo pa bislu spoja selpei cu dunja”

> b9. .i lono jitro terpa cu pagre fi mi .u'e
> None of the controlling fears enter the wondrous {.u'e} me.
“lo terpa” is the fearer, “lo se terpa” is the fear.
Use something like “jitro se terpa”


Semantical problems:
Missing NU cmavo:
> a4. .i mi simlu lo turni
x2 needs to be a property, sorry.

> a7. .i ko na curmi lo viska
x2 must be a event, therefore “lo nu”

Obviously misunderstood cmavo:
> c2. .i .ia zi'o marde fi mi
> .ia non-existant are morals applying to me.
This is not how “zi'o” works. This word is intended to remove a place
from a predicate. This does not mean the thing in question does *not
exist*. Removing a place from a predicate means you simply do not make
any assertion about it. In fact, you automatically create a new
predicate by using “zi'o”.

A probably more intuitive example may be “latna”. It’s defined as:
“x1 is a lotus, plant/flower/herb of species/strain x2 symbolizing x3
to culture/religion x4”.
While there are certainly lotus flowers which mean something to
someone, I don’t want always to imply that by using “latna”.
If you say “ti latna”, you say: “This is a lotus of some species, which
symbolizes something to some culture”. But what if I just don’t care
whether this flower does mean anything to some culture? Then I can use
“zi'o”.
“ti latna fi zi'o zi'o”
= “This is a lotus flower of some species.” (This carries no assertion
about culture whatsover)

Btw: I invented the word “atna” as a shorthand for “latna fe zi'o
zi'o” :)

If you want to express that something is absent, you probably want to
use “no da” (“nothing”).


Other semantical problems:

> b0. .i mi facki lo kakne mi
> I discover the ability of myself.
Nope. x2 must be a bridi. “lo kakne” means
What you probably want here is an indirect question (“ma kau”) word.
An indirect question is a way to specifiy something without mentioning
it explicitly, by using question words.

Here is what I suggest as alternative:
“.i mi facki lo du'u ma kau se kakne mi”
= “I discover WHAT is/are the ability/abilities of me.”
Note that the “WHAT” is the indirect question word in English here.



Careful here:
> b7. .i .o'enai mi nelci lo lenku
This means “o'enai I am fond of something which is cold.” (not the
cold-ness as an state!)

> c3. .einai                                    
> Freedom.
Please note that “.einai” is an attidudinal. This is more like
“Freedom!”, you are expressing that you feel free (or so I understood
this attituduinal). Note this means freedom FROM something.

> d5. .i pe'a mi vu cermurse
Quoted directly from the CLL:
“The cmavo ‘pe'a’ is the indicator of figurative speech, indicating
that the previous word should be taken figuratively rather than
literally:”
I don’t think you meant the sentence seperator figuritavely, implying
that you use Lojban’s grammar as a metaphor. XD
I *think* “pe'a” belongs after “cermurse”. But I really don’t know.
The CLL is not very clear on how to use “pe'a”.


Questoins:
> a1: Should I use {lo} in place of {le} here?
It depends. If you meant “cmana” literally, use “lo”. If you meant “the
thing which I describe as mountaion but is not neccessarily actually a
mountain”. The “le” is useful if you want to refer to something but
just quite don’t know which word.
Please note I am using an accepted proposal called “xorlo”
here. Please read up on it, it is NOT documented in the CLL!
> a3: Is {loi} correct here? or should it be {lo} or {lo'i}?
“loi” is correct, as you are obviously referring to the people as a
mass. You don’t care about the indivuduals here (“lo”)

> a7: I am made to understand that it is ok to use {ko} to command
>oneself if the context makes this usage evident.
This is okay. If everything fails, you can always use “doi” to
explicitly say to whom you are talking to. Although it sounds funny to
say “doi mi ko co'e” but it is certainly possible. (“O me, do this!”)

> a0: Is {ri} used correctly here?
Yes. “ri” refers to “le tcadu” here.

> b4: Did I get any sumti places mixed up here?
No.

> c2: Can {zi'o} be used in this way?
No. I discussed the reason above.

> c3: The problem is that it technically modifies {mi}, but there is a
> pause in the song, so it should be ok, right?
No. It is still part of the same text, therefore part of the same song,
and therefore a seperation is required, otherwise, it sticks to “mi”.
It does not MODIFY “mi”, it just means that you have this particular
feeling of freedom towards “mi”.

> d3: Is {noroi} used correctly here?
> d3. .i mi noroi xruti lo sevzi lo purci
> I am never returning myself to a state from the past.
Yes. “roi” means “n times” and “noroi” literally means “zero times”.
Note this sentence is vague on the time here. I don’t know if
this is intentional.
Note there are also other ways to say “never” in Lojban.

But now I am to lazy to comment the rest of your text and answer the
rest of your questions. There are some other things in the text I didn’t
like, but I just skipped them. :P

I hope it helped anyways.



--
Wuzzy
XMPP: Wuz...@jabber.ccc.de
E-Mail: wuz...@mail.ru
Re: [lojban] Let it Go - In Lojban Ilmen 6/10/14 1:09 PM
On 10/06/2014, Wuzzy wrote:

>> a2. .i vi claxu lo pluta
>> Here there is no path.
> “vi” expects a sumti after it to indicate the location.
> Without that, the sentence is not grammatically correct.
> But you can “vi” also without sumti, if you use a “ku” after it.
> (“vi ku”). This means something like “around here, you know what place
> I am referring to” (I guess).

{vi claxu lo pluta} is perfectly fine. Here, {vi} acts as a selbritcita
(in other words, it is part of the selbri). The argument of "vi" is
implicitely «zo'e». The selbritcita construction allows you to say
things like {lo vi plise} (the apple nearby).

mu'o mi'e la .ilmen.


Re: [lojban] Let it Go - In Lojban djeikon 6/11/14 7:51 AM
Nice work! I could see a few syntax issues, but I think Wuzzy's addressed all of them.

As it happens, I'm also a huge fan of learning languages through translating song lyrics (trying to force a translation to fit the poetic constraints of a song is definitely a good way to develop flexibility in a new language), and I did my own Lojban translation of this song a few weeks ago at the height of its YouTube fame. I've posted my translation below, if you're interested in comparing notes — it's not necessarily better or worse, just very different (we managed not to have a single line in common!) I was a bit less picky about exactly matching the syllable count of the original (I noticed that in some of the official translations, the singers are packing in almost half as many syllables again as in the English version), but I did try quite hard to preserve the rhyme pattern of the original. Let me know what you think :)

lo snime vi lo cmana ca             The snow on the mountain
lovi nicte cu carmi                 tonight is intense.
.i ni'aku lo sepli gugde            Below, an isolated land
cu se turni .a'onai mi              is governed by [sigh] me.

.i le brife cu savru setai          The wind is a senseless clamour, like
lo se cinmo be mi                   the emotions that I feel.
.i mi na'epu'i vasru                I could not contain.
.i le lizycro ca bartu              Now the pain is out.

.i ko sezymipri .i ko se'itro       Hide yourself. Control yourself.
.i ko fanta lonu roda djuno         Prevent everyone from knowing.
.i ko nalfli .i mi flimulno         Do not fail. I've failed completely.
.i roda djuno                       Everyone knows.

.i ri'e mi zifre                    No holding back, I am free!
.i .e'ibu'onai na ba mipri          No more constraints, no more hiding!
.i ri'e mi zifre                    No holding back, I am free!
.i mi ze'eba na badri               I will never again be sad.

.i mi na selra'u                    I'm not bothered
makau poi se cusku                  by what is said.
.i .au vilti'a                      I want a storm!
.i mi ze'eca nelci loli'i lenku     I've always liked being cold.

.i mi se zdile lodu'u               I am amused by the fact
lo darno cu cmamlu                  that distant things seem small.
.ije lo se terpa poi vlipa          And the powerful fears
cu no'e vlipa caku                  aren't powerful now.

.i mi ca te cipra loka              I am now tested to see
ce'u makau kakne .e'inai.ua         what I can do. Whoa, what a challenge!
.i losi'o toldra .e losi'o drani    Wrong and right
na srana mi                         are not relevant to me.

.i ri'e mi zifre                    No holding back, I am free!
.i canaka'e sisti tu'a mi           It's impossible to stop me now.
.i ri'e mi zifre                    No holding back, I am free!
.i mi toltinbe loi javni            I defy the rules.

.i mi vi sanli                      I stand here.
.i mi vi stali                      I stay here.
.i .au vilti'a                      I want a storm!

.i mi dirce lomi makfa              I radiate my magic
tebe'i lo dujvanbi                  into the frozen environment.
.i lomi pruxi cu majbi'o            My soul takes form in
lo xrula bisli fraktali             in flowering ice fractals.
.i pa sidbo co'a menfau             One idea begins to form,
ja'e lo croru'i                     it pains the soul.
.i mi ze'eba na'e xrukla            I will never return.
.i na jurpei lo purci               No dwelling on the past.

.i ri'e mi zifre                    No holding back, I am free!
.i mi carmi setai lo tarci          I blaze like a star.
.i ri'e mi zifre                    No holding back, I am free!
.i co'u noltru co prane             The end of a perfect princess.

.i mi vi sanli                      I stand here
va'o lo cergu'i                     in the morning light.
.i .au vilti'a                      I want a storm!
.i mi ze'eca nelci loli'i lenku     I've always liked being cold.

mu'o mi'e .djeikon.
Re: [lojban] Let it Go - In Lojban gejyspa 9/1/14 11:13 AM
  A few places Wuzzy didn't address, djac:
d7. .i drani cu canci                           Perfection vanishes.

  Once again, missing a mandatory article 

c1. .i lo mi facki cu bancu                     My discovery exceeds a limit.

    That says your discoverer exceeds a limit.  Once again, you would need "se facki" instead of "facki"

Wuzzy:
> d5. .i pe'a mi vu cermurse
Quoted directly from the CLL:
“The cmavo ‘pe'a’ is the indicator of figurative speech, indicating
that the previous word should be taken figuratively rather than
literally:”
I don’t think you meant the sentence seperator figuritavely, implying
that you use Lojban’s grammar as a metaphor. XD
I *think* “pe'a” belongs after “cermurse”. But I really don’t know.
The CLL is not very clear on how to use “pe'a”.
   pe'a is a UI, and indeed, works just like other UI, in that it modifies the previous word, and if that word is a terminator word of a structure, or the start of a structure, it modifies that entire structure.  In other words, using pe'a at the beginning of a sentence is the same as using "a'o" at the beginning of a sentence.  It applies to the whole sentence.  The original line is fine as is.


  Stylisitically, I am wondering why both you, djac, and djeikon both chose to use "nelci" as a basis for "the cold never bothered me anyway", that is, reframing it from a non-dislike to a like, which is not equivalent.  Why not something in the nature "lo za'i lenku na'e selfanza mi"?

  And speaking of style, djac, actually syllable count is exactly the wrong thing to keep in mind when you are translating.  What you want is the same number of STRESSED syllables, and to have them appear in the right meter (but you can fudge unstressed syllables a bit).  So, for example, your line "i zifcru .i zifcru" doesn't work, because the original is "let it GO, let it GO", and your translation is ".i ZIF cru, i ZIF cru", amphibrachic instead of anapestic. So, if you want to be punctilious, you've failed. So you might as well be freer with your self-opposed syllable-count constraint, which is chimeric anyway.

   My two cents,
         --gejyspa


                          

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Re: [lojban] Let it Go - In Lojban djeikon 9/7/14 8:43 AM

  Stylisitically, I am wondering why both you, djac, and djeikon both chose to use "nelci" as a basis for "the cold never bothered me anyway", that is, reframing it from a non-dislike to a like, which is not equivalent.  Why not something in the nature "lo za'i lenku na'e selfanza mi"?

No good reason, I guess. I'd looked at quite a few of the official translations by that point, and was mostly aiming to convey a similar sentiment, rather than the exact English meaning. Incidentally, some of the official translations of that line are quite bizarre; in French, she sings, "Le froid est pour moi le prix de la liberté" (roughly, "The cold is the price of my freedom") — almost the exact opposite sentiment!

Your {fanza}-based version works really well though (perhaps with an added 'cu'). It would break the rhyme pattern in my version, and doesn't have the end-of-line alliteration that I liked about mine, but something similar could probably work.

mu'o mi'e .djeikon.