|Translation help for a theatre project?||Jyrki Pylväs||10/31/12 1:58 AM|
I'm preparing a play called The Human Condition, which will have its premiere early December in Helsinki, Finland.
The play is kind of a high tech phantasmagoria set in a distant future. It's a collection of stories about alienation which are presented as a technological ritual. The storylines are told as a traditional dialogue and monologue but also as audiovisual illusions, data visualization and a datastream which the audience can browse with their personal phones or tablets. I believe that this is the first time that anyone is trying something like this in a live performance. At least in these parts of the world.
The reason I'm approaching the international Lojban community is that I'd like one of the characters on stage to speak only Lojban. The character's name is Godot and he/it should speak a language which is not recognizable to the general public. Encrypted information, if you will. We could of course just make up some kind of jibberish ourselves, but somehow that doesn't feel right. It has to be a real language to give the audience the chance to recognize repetitious words or sentences as he/it speaks.
Lojban is the perfect language for this. Not just because of history of the language, or because it's designed for possible future human-computer interaction, but also because I like the sound of the language. It has character!
I would very much like to write Godot's lines in lojban myself, but since I'm writing the pllay in Finnish and English, directing, designing, producing, coding, building & painting the set, sowing the costumes etc. I have to admit that I just don't have time to learn enough Lojban in one month that I could do it all by myself. So I'm asking the help of the Lojban community. Would anybody (or a group of people) be interested in helping me out? The original is written in English, it's five pages (about 1000 words) with lots of repetition.
Some information about the play here: http://www.korjaamo.fi/en/event/jyrki-pylvas-ihmisen-tila-%E2%80%93-human-condition
and here (in Finnish): http://www.circusmaximus.fi/arkisto/ajankohtaista.html
but mostly here: (in Finnish with lots of photos & videos): http://ihmisentila.tumblr.com/
Hope to hear from you!
|Re: [lojban] Translation help for a theatre project?||selpa'i||10/31/12 10:04 AM|
Am 31.10.2012 09:58, schrieb jpy...@gmail.com:
> Hello everybody!
> premiere early December in Helsinki, Finland. [...]
> The reason I'm approaching the international Lojban community is thatCool, sounds interesting. Surely it would be great to have Lojban
featured in a real play.
I might be interested in helping with the translation. Where can we find
the text that needs to translated?
mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo
doị mèlbi mlenì'u
.i do càtlu ki'u
ma fe la xàmpre ŭu
.i do tìnsa càrmi
gi'e sìrji se tàrmi
.i taị bo pu cìtka lo gràna ku
|Re: [lojban] Translation help for a theatre project?||Jyrki Pylväs||11/1/12 1:37 AM|
And nice to hear that my idea sparks interest! Where are you from, by the way? Do you have a chance to see the actual performance when it's ready?
I uploaded the text as .rtf here: koti.phnet.fi/jpylvas/humancondition/godot/
Check it out and tell me what you think!
Since most of the audience will not recognize the language, the translation doesn't have to be perfect. Even literal would do fine (although my translator spouse would kill me for saying this out loud)... But still one question: the text has a distinct semi-religious/ceremonial style and I wonder how would that translate in Lojban? How does lojban "work" with different styles?
And do you think you could make us also an audio file to help with pronounciation? I know all of this is a lot to ask, but since I think the idea is so good we better execute it as well as possible.
keskiviikko, 31. lokakuuta 2012 19.04.00 UTC+2 selpa'i kirjoitti:
|Re: [lojban] Translation help for a theatre project?||selpa'i||11/1/12 4:37 AM|
Am 01.11.2012 09:37, schrieb Jyrki Pylväs:
> Hello!I probably won't be able to see the play, unless someone does us the
favour of filming it.
> Check it out and tell me what you think!Seems challenging, but possible.
No need to make a bad translation in my opinion.
Lojban is quite flexible and allows for a vast range of expressive styles.
I could do that. But I won't be singing the singing parts :)
It is a lot to do for just a month, especially since I'm quite packed
with projects and it's already hard enough to keep up with them. I'll
have to see if I can manage this on my own. Others are welcome to join in!
|Re: [lojban] Translation help for a theatre project?||Jyrki Pylväs||11/1/12 5:39 AM|
Sure thing! Filming the performance is standard procedure. I don't know if we have the chance this time, but we'll see if it's also possible to stream the performance live.
Seems challenging, but possible.
Good to hear! What do you think is the most challenging part? Any other ideas about the text? Anything close to understandable there...?
No need to make a bad translation in my opinion.
I agree. Although I'm also thinking about that the actor needs some time to rehearse the lines etc. At this point even kind of a raw edit would be most useful for us so the actor can start working on intonation etc. We can do without the finest nuances first, although they're always a bonus. Most of the text will come through a speaker as playback, so we can always make corrections up to the last rehearsal week.
I'd like to hear more about this.
> And do you think you could make us also an audio file to help with
I appreciate that. And don't worry :D
Yes, and we actually have less than a month, it's more like 2-3 weeks...! We have a two week pause in rehearsals before the premiere on December 10th. I think this would be ideal as a group effort, if there's enough people interested. That way the burden wouldn't be too much for anyone. So anyone who's interested: please welcome!
We can also prioritize the parts of the text: some lines and sentences are more important to the storyline and the rhythm of the performance than others. The long story in the middle ("Allegory") is something we can rehearse in English as well and convert it to Lojban later.
Thank you for your help!
|Re: [lojban] Translation help for a theatre project?||selpa'i||11/1/12 5:53 AM|
Am 01.11.2012 13:39, schrieb Jyrki Pylväs:
Well the hardest part will be to correctly convey the style as well as
some specific words that will need to be made up for this text.
I will let you know of specific parts I don't really what the meaning of
later when I have more time. It's just small parts that I need some
The long text in the middle ("Allegory") seems the hardest part, but I
think it will also be the most fun to translate.
Ah, good to know.
When I have more time.
I think even two weeks are enough. It's just 1000 words, I've had some
days where I'd translate more than that in a day, so it's possible at
least in theory! Still, help would be appreciated, even though I
wouldn't mind doing this alone and having it be all in my style as a
|Re: [lojban] Translation help for a theatre project?||Jyrki Pylväs||11/1/12 1:13 PM|
Don't hesitate to ask me. And the process of making up words sounds also interesting if you have the chance of explaining that to me.
Looking forward to it!
Sounds excellent! Let's stay in touch!
|Re: [lojban] Translation help for a theatre project?||selpa'i||11/1/12 2:05 PM|
Am 01.11.2012 21:13, schrieb Jyrki Pylväs:
>The first part is not clear to me.
> Rukous / The Prayer:
I'm not sure what word to use for "prayer" here, since the speaker
(Godot) doesn't seem to be begging or asking anything. I'm currently
using "nu pikci", but this implies that something is being asked for.
> From the ones before us,
> complete and unchanged.
What does this mean? Is it merely a clarification that the following
prayer is unchanged from the way it was? It's not part of the prayer
> Everything as pure as in the beginning.
> In descendant: ancestral similarity, valued.
> Devoid of mutation.
"In descendant" confuses me. Does it mean "there is some quality in
decendants, namely they are similar to their ancestors? Please clarify.
> This I will guard.
> This is my promise.
> This is my destiny.
> The level of my purity, determined.
What is "this" ?
|Re: [lojban] Translation help for a theatre project?||selpa'i||11/1/12 4:49 PM|
I've completed the entire text.
Where should I post it?
|Re: [lojban] Translation help for a theatre project?||selpa'i||11/1/12 6:03 PM|
You're probably asleep already. Well I hope it will be a nice surprise
when you check your mail tomorrow.
I've uploaded the text to my website. Note that even though complete,
it's still a draft, and I would be happy if at least one other person
could read over it once. I have not finalized the layout of this text,
but that isn't central to your project anyway, so here it goes:
|Re: [lojban] Translation help for a theatre project?||Jyrki Pylväs||11/1/12 9:33 PM|
Well, this is a pleasant surprise! Incredible...
I'm traveling most of today, so I'll have to get back to you in the evening when I get back home. But quick answers to your questions are here:
Now I see that the use of word "prayer" is probably a finnism. "Chant" would be more like it.
Excactly. Just a very complicated way of saying that what is about to be said has not changed at all, ever.
And that similarity is valued. Since the ancestors were perfect. Correct.
It refers to the ideology behind the chant (the pursuit of changelessness), the physical space where the action takes place (it will be something out of Mad Max) and quite possibly some small object the character will hold.
perjantai, 2. marraskuuta 2012 3.03.06 UTC+2 selpa'i kirjoitti:
You're probably asleep already. Well I hope it will be a nice surprise
Once again: wow!
Will get back to you in the evening.
|Re: [lojban] Translation help for a theatre project?||selpa'i||11/5/12 5:36 AM|
Am 02.11.2012 05:33, schrieb Jyrki Pylväs:
> Goodness!I'm still waiting for a response with feedback.
mu'o mi'e selpa'i
|Re: [lojban] Translation help for a theatre project?||Jyrki Pylväs||11/5/12 9:14 AM|
And sorry about the delay: I've been either very busy or very tired the past couple of days. I've just now had the chance to sit down in peace to look more closely to the text. And it sure looks impressive!
I don't have the ability to tell anything about the quality of the translation, so I better leave that to someone who can. But even as a first draft it's more than I could ever hope for! If I'd live in your town I'd bring you now loads and loads of alcoholic beverages to thank you.
For us the next step would be to learn how to pronounce the words (and sentences) as close to fluent and natural as possible. I found a basic pronounciation guide, but in order to help the actor recite the text well, we should "decipher" it first. For example, to emphasize certain lines it's good to know at least generally what the meaning of individual words are ("This I will guard" vs. "This I will guard" vs. "This I will guard" vs. "This I will guard" in English, probably works a bit different in Lojban? Or does it?). Do you think you could help us out also with that?
We're making first attempts on recording parts of the text ("The Chant") Wednesday afternoon. I'll upload the clip to our website, so you can comment on how it went.
maanantai, 5. marraskuuta 2012 15.36.35 UTC+2 selpa'i kirjoitti:
|Re: [lojban] Translation help for a theatre project?||selpa'i||11/5/12 10:49 AM|
Am 05.11.2012 18:14, schrieb Jyrki Pylväs:
> Hello!Thanks, though I'd prefer non-alcoholic beverages. :)
> pronounciation guide <http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LojbanPronunciation>, but
> in order to help the actor recite the text well, we should "decipher" it> least generally what the meaning of individual words are ("*This* I will
> guard" vs. "This *I* will guard" vs. "This I *will* guard" vs. "This I
> will *guard*" in English, probably works a bit different in Lojban? Or
> does it?).
Yes, I know what you mean, and this is of course important. Even though
such intonation doesn't technically carry any value in Lojban (it's
instead conveyed via words where the specific stress lies), it would
probably still feel out of place during a play, if the lines got
emphasized too strangely.
I can easily record everything, but there is one part in particular that
I'm not happy with yet, and I need some ideas on how to better translate
it. I don't want to have to record the text multiple times.
Which part is the Chant? If it's the part after the Allegory, then I
could probably record that by wednesday.
mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
|Re: [lojban] Translation help for a theatre project?||Jyrki Pylväs||11/5/12 11:32 AM|
This is very valuable information! Of course, on stage actor' s intonation and gestures are a big part of the message. We are actually moving towards radio drama-type of expression, since the text will be a playback (through a speaker on actor's body, but still). And also: stressing some key words we could give the audience the chance to start recognizing them.
I can easily record everything, but there is one part in particular that
Which part would that be? If I can help, don't hesitate to ask.
The Chant is the first part ( I called it The Prayer first, but you were right: it's not a prayer at all!):
We'll probably try the Warnings as well, if we have the time but let's see. It's going to be a very busy day...
Learning the text in Lojban is a very interesting task for the actor who will recite it, too. He's very enthusiastic about this, like the rest of us! Something completely different.
Have to start packing my things and go home. If you have any comments or questions I might be online later in the evening, but don't know for sure yet. Tomorrow afternoon for certain.
|Re: [lojban] Translation help for a theatre project?||selpa'i||11/6/12 5:12 PM|
Am 05.11.2012 20:32, schrieb Jyrki Pylväs:
>Glad to hear everyone is behind the idea.
Alright, I recorded the Chant as well as the Warnings in case you'll try
those as well tomorrow. I recorded the Warnings twice, once in
normal/fast speech and once slow. Clearly, I'm not an actor, so I'm not
getting into it as much as you would, but it's demonstrating the
pronunciation so you have something to model yours on.
You can find the recordings at www.selpahi.de/godot.html and then
clicking the respective headline for the part you want to listen to.
Let me know what you think.
|Re: [lojban] Translation help for a theatre project?||Jyrki Pylväs||11/7/12 10:11 AM|
The recordings you made were excellent!
Without them I don't know how we would've managed...
Here's some takes of today: http://ihmisentila.tumblr.com/
Lojban pronunciation is quite tricky for native Finnish speakers, especially the different "s" consonants since we don't have much variation there.
I'm quite happy about the results of today, but does it sound anything like Lojban? Is it understandable?
keskiviikko, 7. marraskuuta 2012 3.12.49 UTC+2 selpa'i kirjoitti:
|Re: [lojban] Translation help for a theatre project?||selpa'i||11/7/12 11:05 AM|
Am 07.11.2012 19:11, schrieb Jyrki Pylväs:
> The recordings you made were excellent!Now I wished I understood Finnish! The pictures are very impressive,
makes me very eager to see the final play.
Yes, that's a very common problem for speakers from Scandinavia. Are
there other things that are particularly difficult for Finnish speakers?
Wow that is amazing! What good acting can achieve! I love the way
Finnish people sound when speaking other languages, we have a Finnish
lojbanist, and I could listen to him all day :) It's such a likable sound.
That being said, the recording is easy to understand for the most part.
As you said yourself, the s sounds are difficult, so "simsa" was
pronounced "zimza", and "dzena" sounded like "djena".
The j in Lojban is pronounced like ž in Finnish I think. Also, wikipedia
says that the lojban s is part of Finnish (which is what I thought to
begin with), so that shouldn't cause problems in "simsa".
Overall, it's a very nice recording, in my opinion. :)
I'm not sure I can comment much on the acting, since you know much
better than me what kind of performance you are going for. I would never
have guessed from just reading the text that Godot would get so into it.
|Re: [lojban] Translation help for a theatre project?||Jyrki Pylväs||11/9/12 3:29 AM|
Now I wished I understood Finnish! The pictures are very impressive,
We have a seat reserved for you if happen to find your to Helsinki!
I think just the "s" sounds, especially when there's two different ones in the same word. Since the everyday spoken Finnish has only s (s) and ts (z), it's very hard for a Finnish speaker to make distinction between ž (ʒ) and š (ʃ) - and to compare those to s. That's the only problem in my opinion, and also the reason why different s's vary in our recording.
Here's a good, short guide to Finnish pronunciation, if you're interested: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/suomi/fon.html
Thanks a lot! I also think that the recording was succesful. It was also great fun to play with the sound and rhythm of Lojban. It has a very unique sound as a language, I think. And I'm also glad that it's mostly understandable!
We're continuing with the recordings on Tuesday and we hope to record the rest of the text then. I wonder if you have the chance to make us another audio before that? Your example tape was really helpful in finding the right tone. I'm also writing a phonetic guide for Lorenz for the recording, since we now know a bit more about how Lojban is pronunced.
We opened the official website for the project yesterday: http://ihmisentila.fi/
There's not much stuff there yet, but it's growing...
|Re: [lojban] Translation help for a theatre project?||vitci'i||11/9/12 11:07 AM|
On 11/09/2012 05:29 AM, Jyrki Pylväs wrote:ʒ and ʃ are respectively the lojban j and c, right?
|Re: [lojban] Translation help for a theatre project?||selpa'i||11/9/12 11:15 AM|
Am 09.11.2012 20:07, schrieb vitci'i:
|Re: [lojban] Translation help for a theatre project?||selpa'i||11/12/12 3:01 PM|
Am 09.11.2012 12:29, schrieb Jyrki Pylväs:
> We're continuing with the recordings on Tuesday and we hope to recordI have now recorded the rest of the text. The sound files can again be
accessed by clicking the headline of each respective part. I didn't have
much time to record this (I had to spend the last ~two hours doing all
of it at once), so I couldn't do tons of re-records. I hope it's still
of good use to you guys.
Good luck tomorrow!
|Re: [lojban] Translation help for a theatre project?||Jyrki Pylväs||11/15/12 5:34 AM|
Thanks a lot once again!
I've been super busy with everything, so I haven't had a chance to reply earlier. Sorry about that.
The example audio you made was really helpful again, and I think we made the best recording yet!
I'll upload it online once I get the mp3 file from our sound designer. He has buried himself incommunicado in his studio, so I don't know yet when the file is available.
The Allegory is unbelievably good.
Will notify you once I get my hands (ears) on the file.
By the way, about the program leaflet (or "leaflet", since we'll put everything online): do you want your real or nick name there?
tiistai, 13. marraskuuta 2012 1.01.19 UTC+2 selpa'i kirjoitti:
|Re: [lojban] Translation help for a theatre project?||selpa'i||11/15/12 5:53 AM|
Am 15.11.2012 14:34, schrieb Jyrki Pylväs:
> Thanks a lot once again!That's no problem at all, I know how busy life can get sometimes.
Great to hear that!
I'm looking forward to hearing it. :)
I think my real name would be nice: Miles Forster.
|Re: [lojban] Translation help for a theatre project?||Jyrki Pylväs||11/16/12 11:32 PM|
Ok, here it is (in four parts):
torstai, 15. marraskuuta 2012 15.53.50 UTC+2 selpa'i kirjoitti:
|Re: [lojban] Translation help for a theatre project?||Jyrki Pylväs||12/9/12 10:41 PM|
Our premiere is tonight!
You'll find some photos from rehearsals here: http://ihmisentila.tumblr.com/ and some press photos here: ihmisentila.fi (click "pressikuvat").
selpa'i: send me your mail address so I can send you a DVD of the performance. You'll find my e-mail address here: http://koti.phnet.fi/jpylvas/contact.html
There's less lojban on stage than I originally planned, but the whole "Allegory" part is inside the datastream (smartphone content) part of the show. Most of the stuff there is in Finnish, but some parts are in English and lojban. I'll send you the username and password to the datastream with the DVD.
Since we are a very small theatre group we usually don't get much attention from the press, but this time we had a quite nice story about us in Helsingin Sanomat Friday supplement. The reporter made the use of lojban on stage one of the key points in her story, which I thought was quite nice!
And once again: thank you very much!
lauantai, 17. marraskuuta 2012 9.32.39 UTC+2 Jyrki Pylväs kirjoitti:
|Re: [lojban] Translation help for a theatre project?||selpa'i||12/10/12 6:08 AM|
la Jyrki Pylväs cu cusku di'e
> Our premiere is tonight!
Nice! Good luck!
I really like the visuals, I'm eager to see all of it in motion :)
Oh cool, a DVD, thank you! I sent you a private email.
Awesome, do you have a link to that article?
Glad to help!
gi je sìrji se tàrmi
.i taị bo da'i pu cìtka lo gràna ku
|Re: [lojban] Translation help for a theatre project?||shanoxilt||12/10/12 9:47 AM|
I would love to have a copy of the performance! Could you send me one too?