Descartes and vivisection

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Descartes and vivisection Daniele Procida 05/03/09 05:40
Does Descartes, in any of his own writings, describe his animal
vivisection experiments?

Thanks,

Daniele

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Re: Descartes and vivisection Peter King 06/03/09 15:37
On Thu, 5 Mar 2009, Daniele Procida wrote:

> Does Descartes, in any of his own writings, describe his animal
> vivisection experiments?

No, because (so far as I've been able to discover) he didn't perform any.
There's a peculiar and very widespread myth (which Googling shows to be
alive and well) that he did, but it seems to be a complete fabrication.
It even stretches to the claim that he essentially tortured his wife's dog
in public -- a claim which his bachelorhood and excessive fondness for his
own pet dog might be thought adequately to refute...

It may well be that people took his view of the probable nature of
non-human animals and used it to justify vivisection -- but that, of
course, is a very different matter.

It's of course *possible* that, in the course of his scientific work,
he performed vivisection (which was becoming a popular technique at the
time); does anyone on the list have any firm evidence for this?

Peter

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Re: Descartes and vivisection David Spurrett 07/03/09 00:01
If it is a fabrication, it seems to have fooled Rodis-Lewis, who refers to it, and to Descartes' related interest in dissection, in her 'Descartes, His Life and Times' (English translation, Cornell, 1995, page 85). She quotes from Descartes' correspondence, suggesting that Descartes too was taken in by the myth. One relevant letter is that to Plempius of 15 Feb 1638, to be found on pages 79-85 of Vol III of the Cambridge 'Philosophical Writings' (ed and transl Cottingham et al).
 
Excerpt:
 
"For this is disproved by an utterly decisive experiment, which I was interested to observe several times before, and which I performed today in the course of
writing this letter. First, I opened the chest of a live rabbit and removed the ribs to expose the heart and the trunk of the aorta. I then tied the aorta with a thread
a good distance from the heart..." (page 81).
DS

>>> Peter King <peter...@PMB.OX.AC.UK> 2009/03/07 01:36 AM >>>

Peter

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Re: Descartes and vivisection Hanoch Ben-Yami 07/03/09 01:46
Why do you think it's a fabrication?  And he repeats his description of
the operation on a rabbit's heart almost a decade later, in his
_Description_, AT XI 243. Besides, there's another passage in his
letters, containing a description of observations he made on a living
eel’s heart (to Plempius, 23 March 1638, AT II 66).

Hanoch

Hanoch Ben-Yami
Philosophy Department
Central European University
Budapest
http://web.ceu.hu/phil/benyami/index.htm

>>> David Spurrett <Spur...@UKZN.AC.ZA> 07/03/2009 08:59 >>>

Re: Descartes and vivisection Stephen Voss 09/03/09 03:17
Dear Hanoch Ben-Yami,

        The two best authorities on Descartes agree that he practiced
vivisection - Genevieve Rodis-Lewis and Rene Deacartes. The texts that David
Spurrett cites below look about as decisive as anyone could want, unless
someone has evidence that was unknown to Rodis-Lewis that Descartes was
lying. Descartes says at CSMK 81 that he has observed a certain vivisection
several times and that in the course of writing to Plemp is presently
carrying it out himself.
        Here is an excerpt from Marjorie Grene's article. Descartes is
defending his theory that the motion of the heart and the circulation of the
blood are caused by heat in the heart. At one point he offers a theoretical
reply to one of Galen's arguments. Grene: "But then, while he is at it, he
takes the opportunity to instruct Plemp further about his own experiments in
vivisection. (The history of biology is terrible to think about; even those
who did not accept the theory of the bete-machine happily practiced
vivisection.) This passage (if one can bear it) is worth quoting in full
..." ("The heart and blood: Descartes, Plemp, and Harvey," Essays on the
Philosophy and Science of Rene Descartes, p. 327.)
        Descartes talks out of both sides of his mouth on the question
whether non-human animals have feelings. But he did have a pet, even as he
maintained that such creatures are mere machines. Richard Watson has a very
interesting chapter, "Descartes's Dog," in which he speculates that it was a
good thing for "Monsieur Grat" that Descartes sent him to his friend Picot
in Paris in 1648, since Descartes practiced vivisection not only on rabbits
but also on dogs - there is a nice description of that at CSM I 317 = AT XI
241-2, just a page before the rabbit story that you cite), in which
Descartes implies but doesn't come out and say that he's carried it out
himself. (Watson, Cogito, ergo sum: The life of Rene Descartes.) Evidently
it was Malebranche (according to the common legend) and not Descartes who
extended the doctrine of bete-machine into outright viciousness.

Stephen Voss

*****

Re: Descartes and vivisection I R Ground 09/03/09 04:10
As noted, Descartes position was, at least sometimes, rather complex. An interesting irony in the following:

        "But though I regard it as established that we cannot prove there is any thought in animals, I do not think it is thereby proved that there is not, since the human mind does not reach into their hearts."
Descartes, Letter to H. More 1649 (Kenny 1970)

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-----Original Message-----
From: Philosophy in Europe [mailto:PHIL...@liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Hanoch Ben-Yami

Re: Descartes and vivisection Levent Kavas 09/03/09 10:26
"Does Descartes, in any of his own writings, describe his animal vivisection experiments?"
"No, because (.) he didn't perform any."
Yes and doch, because he did (if we are to believe his own words).
See his letter to Plempius on 15 February 1638. (AT I 526ff; The Philosophical Writings of Descartes, Cottingham et al. III 81ff)

Levent


E.M.U
Eastern Mediterranean University

Re: Descartes and vivisection JACKSON, Roy 09/03/09 10:44
Indeed, in AT, XI. he says, 'If you cut off the end of the heart of a
living dog and insert your finger through the incision into one of the
concavities, you will clearly feel that every time the heart shortens,
it presses your finger, and stops pressing it every time it lengthens.'
In AT I. he states that if you whip a dog repeatedly when a violin is
playing it will in time whimper when it hears a violin playing, which
suggests he didn't have a particularly high opinion of animals!

Roy


Dr. Roy Ahmad Jackson,

Senior Lecturer in Religion, Philosophy and Ethics,

University of Gloucestershire

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Hanoch

> Does Descartes, in any of his own writings, describe his animal
> vivisection experiments?

No, because (so far as I've been able to discover) he didn't perform
any.

Peter

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Re: Descartes and vivisection Greenwood, John 09/03/09 19:12
Which means that Descartes identified classical conditioning, whatever his opinion of animals.

John D Greenwood
Professor of Philosophy
City College & Graduate Center
City University of New York