|Minutes for 2010-11-09 Meeting||Timmy Shih Jun Yee||11/16/10 9:57 AM|
I finally got around to sending out the minutes for last week's meeting
I was only able to attend the first hour, so if anyone who was there last week
Everyone is more than welcome to ask or comment about the minutes.
|Re: Minutes for 2010-11-09 Meeting||Sunny Woo||11/16/10 2:04 PM|
Okay, there needs to be a some modifications to my description.
> * Sunny
I am not a programmer. Tried it in the past, but never could succeed. My code would never work. Decided to build a techie life without programming. I enjoy using Linux from a non-programming perspective. I have learned you do not have to be a programmer to enjoy and use the power of Linux. However at CCSF, there is no avenue for non-programming Linux users to walk on, at least not yet?
|Re: Minutes for 2010-11-09 Meeting||Will Eagleton||11/16/10 2:27 PM|
As an end user you can point and click, but to administer and customize you're going to know scripting, some interpreted/non compiled languages like python, php, and also some form of C (c, c++,c sharp, obj c) maybe some java too.
Ive toyed with Linux over the years, but just enough to get into xwin. If you dig for the definition of a hacker (post MIT lockpickers) you will find unix geeks.
Removing the end user from customization = Winders
|Re: Minutes for 2010-11-09 Meeting||Sunny Woo||11/16/10 3:49 PM|
I tried diving into Java two semesters ago. The logic and the built in ability never materialized. I just took the class for one day and when I look back on leaving, I don't regret it. The manner in which the class was structured, revolved around a switch between individual work and group work. I don't think I could have handled either. I would be too busy trying to hitch a free ride from group classmates.
> To: ccsf-linux...@googlegroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, November 16, 2010, 2:27 PM
|Re: Minutes for 2010-11-09 Meeting||Will Eagleton||11/16/10 5:10 PM|
I'm guessing that one of the toughest languages to learn must be
assembly. Then again Perl looks pretty bad to me too, but thats
actually fairly common.
|Re: Minutes for 2010-11-09 Meeting||Timmy Shih Jun Yee||11/22/10 9:24 PM|
On 11/16/2010 05:10 PM, Will Eagleton wrote:
It's rather subjective to say what the toughest languages are to learn. Though
I'm such a hardcore Python programmer that I make Perl code look pretty. ;)
If I had to say what the toughest language to learn is, it'd be Haskell. There
|Re: Minutes for 2010-11-09 Meeting||Timmy Shih Jun Yee||11/22/10 9:29 PM|
On 11/16/2010 02:04 PM, Sunny Woo wrote:
And you are not alone! Linux in the past 5 years has made great strides in
> I have learned you do not have
I think it is unfortunate that CCSF does not offer "introduction to computers"
|Re: Minutes for 2010-11-09 Meeting||Sunny Woo||11/22/10 10:44 PM|
> > I have learned you do not haveThat is one of the reasons why I wanted to join a Linux club at CCSF. The complexity of programming is not an activity to be discussed in a club setting. For me to hike up a programming hill is not an expedition I want to embark on again. There are other ways to use Linux and I want to explore these avenues.
Out of curiosity, does anyone pay for a shell account that they would recommend? Which ISP does it the best? I use several free ones right now.
|Re: Minutes for 2010-11-09 Meeting||Timmy Shih Jun Yee||11/22/10 10:57 PM|
On 11/22/2010 10:44 PM, Sunny Woo wrote:
This is probably the CS major speaking through me, but I think programming can
I do understand that the CCSF programming courses are not the easiest to go
If you do want to go back to programming, try out Python. Its syntax is clean
Programming does not have to be hard. I once thought that I would never touch a
But anyhow, Linux is not all about programming (despite popular belief!) and I
> Out of curiosity, does anyone pay for a shell account that they would
Oh wow! Shell accounts? I haven't heard about those things since I was in high
I wonder why you're asking about them. I thought they're obsolete now since
|Re: Minutes for 2010-11-09 Meeting||bazmonkey||11/23/10 10:05 AM|
> That is one of the reasons why I wanted to join a Linux club at CCSF. The complexity of programming is not anAgreed. A proper course that taught, for lack of a better word,
"Linux exploration" would be a very floofy course if it didn't at
least delve into a bit of shell scripting, which depending on your
definition is programming. I suspect the kind of people who would be
interested in Linux enough to take a course on it would find it either
lacking or a waste of time (something that could be learned faster on
Shell account... por que? Just to have a place to explore? If that's
it, there are easier ways to go about it. As Timmy pointed out,
LiveCD's are great for that. A persistent USB stick or a virtual
machine running Linux would give you even more flexibility. Is it to
have a place to explore that has a webserver or some network service
running that you want to play with? You could set up local ones. As
far as actually recommending one, I have no idea.
|Re: Minutes for 2010-11-09 Meeting||Sunny Woo||11/23/10 2:04 PM|
Thanks for opening my eyes to another reality on the other side of the coin. However I do not want to overload myself. Pressure from everywhere else and my disabilities are forcing me to find a paying job first. I will give Python a try when I start to get the time, unfortunately that is not going to happen anytime soon.
> > Out of curiosity, does anyone pay for a shell account
> Oh wow! Shell accounts? I haven't heard about those thingsHmmm...After my car accident, that forced me to pull myself out of the world of Linux. I went through an easier time relearning how to use Microsoft Windows again. Now I want to dive back into Linux, but I can only have fun with it for now. The concept of a shell account appears to be outdated now. As I faintly recall, it was popular back in the old days when I was consumed with always using Linux.
> I wonder why you're asking about them. I thought they'reI thought the concept of a true hacker, is a shell user? I never worked my way up to becoming a skilled hacker, because you need to learn programming and be fast at it.
|Re: Minutes for 2010-11-09 Meeting||Will Eagleton||11/23/10 2:12 PM|
The concept of 'hacking' was first mentioned by MIT people who were
into lock-picking, so similarly in computing terms, you might say its
a person who meets a challenge and figures a way through it by
experience and skill set. Usually this is going to involve programming
aka customization (kernel, whatever).
White-hat (hacking for the enjoyment of exploration) "The good guy"
Black-hat (hacking to find exploits and system weaknesses, see
and Grey-hat (someone who is a little of both) Usually when society is
|Re: Minutes for 2010-11-09 Meeting||bazmonkey||11/23/10 2:13 PM|
I suppose it could be the concept of a true hacker, but all Timmy and
|Re: Minutes for 2010-11-09 Meeting||Chris Bolton||2/28/11 6:33 PM|
As someone who is actively learning haskell, it's definitely is the most *different* language out there, and even out of the functional languages it is the only pure one, so it really does force you to think about things differently. I 'spose this pretty biased, but I still love it =P. The type checking catches so many more little errors during compile time, that by the time you run your program, it's much more likely to work as intended, as opposed to imperative languages where you have to run through a phase of heavy bug testing, and I think it just makes you a better programmer in general, even if you aren't planning on using it heavily. I also think the code itself is much cleaner and concise... just look at this comparison of quicksort (an extremely widely-used sorting algorithm) in haskell vs. c =P (http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Introduction#Quicksort_in_Haskell). That page explains alot of things in more depth, as well.
|Re: Minutes for 2010-11-09 Meeting||Timmy Shih Jun Yee||3/1/11 3:38 PM|
On 02/28/2011 06:33 PM, Chris Bolton wrote:
I like the language too. I can't say too much about the syntax though.
> The type
What really sets Haskell (and some other FP languages) apart from the usual
> I also think the code itself is
Well, one thing about Haskell is that it has immutable variables (which is
Anyway, that example does show the conciseness of Haskell. Though it's not the
If only CCSF taught something else than C++ and Java for their intro courses...