|Wireless Cameras for the Space||BlackTalon||10/4/12 9:15 AM|
If I purchase 4 IP Wireless cameras for the space, are we willing to put these in all areas of our space not just the dirty shop?
Here is what I am thinking of buying
These are WIFI enabled cameras with pan/tilt and 2 way audio (at least for windows). They have an integrated web interface and both an administration mode and a user mode. They can be programmed to run a pattern and only record when there is motion. The output can be directed to a server of your choosing or to the cloud.
I am thinking these could serve a dual purpose. The user mode could be used as Tele-presence devices. The device logs who connects to it and that can be sent to a server too. We can scan the logs for who is connected and put the name up on a display at the front of the room.
My next idea for added security? Dogs and Bazookas!
|Re: (Arch Reactor) Wireless Cameras for the Space||Pete||10/4/12 9:33 AM|
Personally, I'm not really a fan of IP cameras. They're pretty notorious for leaking their images to anyone with access to the network. So if they're running on our WiFi (which is only marginally secured), people may be able to swipe images from them without authorization.
I prefer good old fashioned CCTV-style cameras wired up to a DVR like what we have for the 3-4 cameras that are currently rigged up.
|Re: (Arch Reactor) Wireless Cameras for the Space||XSFX2000||10/4/12 9:36 AM|
Unless of course, we'd like some of these camera feeds to be web-views of the space.
"Hey! Look at us in the space- Live!"
Y'know, that kind of thing.
|Re: (Arch Reactor) Wireless Cameras for the Space||XSFX2000||10/4/12 9:37 AM|
Pulling, um, double duty.
|Re: (Arch Reactor) Wireless Cameras for the Space||Pete||10/4/12 9:45 AM|
I don't think we want cameras pulling "double duty."
I think if we want to have a live feed from the space, we should limit it to a designated area and make sure people know that activities in that area are being broadcast to the internet. Whereas, for security cameras, we want to have maximal coverage. It's not meant to be a "big brother is watching you" situation. I think it's reasonable to say that archival footage from the security cameras should be limited in availability to the executive board and should be used only for situations such as theft, misplacement, or destruction of tools/property; or investigating/documenting accidents.
Security cameras seem like a good idea when we have so many people around the space, some of which might not be known by everyone there. But we should also appreciate that people might not want everything they do at the space to be available for review by anyone with a web browser.
So, if we want to have an area dedicated to "Live from Arch Reactor" or something, that's fine with me, as long as it's appropriately designated (i.e. signs). But the addition of security cameras should be a separate project with different goals.
|Re: (Arch Reactor) Wireless Cameras for the Space||XSFX2000||10/4/12 10:33 AM|
It's cool, I throw out ideas, but I'm certain most of them are crap-
I picked up the gist of brainstorming when I was 10- which meant
I actively search for the most whacked out, insane, implausible- solutions
to any problem to see which ones might 'stick'.
Usually, rational thought pops up quickly afterwards and people whisper:
"Don't mind him, he's special." 8)
Which is why I only twitched a little (internally) and decided to make a complete
fool of myself at the 'Licence to Prom' event.
|Re: (Arch Reactor) Wireless Cameras for the Space||BlackTalon||10/4/12 10:34 AM|
I seriously doubt that anything we do in the space that would be something people would want to watch other than our projects, and if there is something going on in the space that shouldn't be broadcast on the web maybe we shouldn't be doing it in the space. I think more than anything this is an fear of loss of a freedom. The freedom to do what we want when we want without someone seeing us. I think that's an irrational fear.
The very first question the police asked when I told them my phone was stolen was "Are there any cameras that could have recorded the crime?".
And what if these cameras are hacked? I think the hacker would be sorely disappointed by the view of our lounge furniture and tables. Wouldn't we want to invite anyone that did hack the cameras to join our space? I think we post a message on the whiteboard, "Hey, you hacked the cameras, you passed the first test, come down on Tuesday nights and meet us ;-)"
|Re: (Arch Reactor) Wireless Cameras for the Space||kamikazejoe||10/4/12 11:47 AM|
I agree with Pete. It's not that the camera's are there, it's who
get's to watch. The point was made during the meeting that they would
be limited access. I don't have any particular problem with IP
cameras. I think a well tested or reviewed camera on a private
network would be fine. And most ip cams can be integrated into dvr
software by just feeding in the url of the mjpeg feed.
I'd prefer not to be on public view at the space at all times.
Calendared events, fine. I wouldn't mine being able to tune in when I
can't make a business meeting. When i'm just there to work on
something, not so much. Not because I am working on anything
nefarious, it's just because I am uncomfortable with it. I don't
think I am the only one who feels that way about it either.
And I can't say I disagree with you, George, that it may be an
irrational fear. But irrational or not, if it makes people
uncomfortable, then it's also an uncomfortable place to work. And I
think that may throw up another potential hurdle for Arch Reactor's
|Re: (Arch Reactor) Wireless Cameras for the Space||Andy Ricke||10/4/12 11:53 AM|
Yeah. I agree with George. 1) We're public so who cares if the camera's are exposed to wider internet 2). Whose hacking these cameras that doesn't belong with us anyway?
If someone can setup IP cameras easier/sooner/cheaper that CCTV, then I don't think we have a reason to object . Whatever tech gets the job done.
-Sent from my iPhone
|Re: Wireless Cameras for the Space||Gene J. (GeekTinker)||10/4/12 2:54 PM|
I've considered the project of setting up a webcam on a computer for the space that allows for connecting it to Google+ as an Arch Reactor Hangout for any member who wants to do so. We could also use that to broadcast our public events online as a Google Hangout. We could narrow access to members for any meetings that are not open to the public. I may have a computer with enough power for this purpose. Would anyone be opposed to that idea?
It would score "geek points" with me if somebody couldn't physically make it to the space for a meeting, but through a Google+ Hangout could present through the computer and the projector and receive feedback.
The same computer and camera could be used to record journal videos of what projects anybody is currently working on at our Makerspace, too.
Plus, it might allow more people to participate who can't always make it physically for a meeting.
|Re: (Arch Reactor) Re: Wireless Cameras for the Space||Pete||10/4/12 3:05 PM|
I like this idea a lot. I have a nice webcam that I would be open to donating for this purpose.
|Re: Wireless Cameras for the Space||Gene J. (GeekTinker)||10/4/12 4:35 PM|
I have split this idea out into it's own topic on the forum, please address any more responses for the webcam & pc to that thread and keep anything going about wireless security cameras in this thread.
|Re: (Arch Reactor) Wireless Cameras for the Space||Altered Ego||10/5/12 3:24 AM|
I am with Pete and Joe on this one. I don't want to have feeds
accessible to just anybody. I understand the benefit in terms of
security as a deterrent for theft. But, outside of that I would
prefer to be able to have reasonable privacy in my comings and goings.
I also think that it is a bad thing for things like 2600 meetings.
Some people do not want a public facing record of association with an
interest in the ins and outs of security vulnerabilities and how they
are exploited. These sorts of meetings carry with them the
expectation of being a protetected space. People aren't supposed to
hack each other and there really shouldn't be any documentation of the
participation that is undesired. It's a matter of respect and being a
The cameras are a necessary evil. We don't want unaccountability for
actions when it comes to things like theft. But, review of
surviellance should be limited to a need to know basis in terms of
viewing and by members of the board.
People should feel free to be themselves without the fear of their
actions popping up later on the internet to embarrass them.
Discretion and respect should be built into whatever system is
created. The feeds should be reasonable assured to not be publicly
It isn't only about what is easier. It is also about what is the
correct way to carry ourselves and treat people fairly.
|Re: (Arch Reactor) Wireless Cameras for the Space||BlackTalon||10/5/12 8:49 AM|
What if we have the cameras and have the option to turn them off? Meetings that require privacy can have it.
Its important to note if you use a cell phone you have no expectation of privacy. It a recent court case a drug dealer was using a burn phone and the police remotely enabled the gps tracking so they could find him. The drug dealer's lawyer objected to the use of cell phone data saying he had a reasonable expectation of privacy. The court allowed the evidence stating that the drug dealer chose to use the cell phone and as such waved his expectation of privacy. The fact that he did not know it had gps was irrelevant. This extends to the camera and microphone on the phone as well.
|Re: (Arch Reactor) Wireless Cameras for the Space||Altered Ego||10/5/12 8:54 AM|
I don't like that direction the law is taking. But, you still have choices. You can turn off the phone. You can wrap it in aluminum foil. Take out the battery. It is hard to evade a complex of cameras. The world of paranoid government might go that way, but we should know better....
I think the option to turn the cameras off makes sense.
|Re: (Arch Reactor) Wireless Cameras for the Space||baslisks||10/5/12 9:03 AM|
my 2 cents. I do not like having publicly accessible web cams and ideally would like to choose which content I share with the public though my phone or computer. I have no problem with private security cams accessible by Sargent of arms and higher on the board. If we are recording for security purposes I propose we make it evident with signage and such. A good sign does a good bit to deter problems too. Put an eye on that sign and it is even more effective according to Cracked's top fake psychologists.
|Re: (Arch Reactor) Wireless Cameras for the Space||Chris||10/5/12 9:05 AM|
I too don't agree with that ruling, and I suspect it'll be appealed
again and eventually overturned. Half their argument is that the cell
phone "ping" is a public broadcast that can be tracked, and it kind of
is, but the GPS data is not. it's protected under a service contract
with the cell provider, and the cops need to have a warrant to get it
turned on without the owners approval. If they had used some method,
say a physical sighting and a radio sniffer that could uniquely
signature the phone, then tracked it, that would be a different story
and would fully fit what they are arguing. But it's not.
I think they only reason they are upholding it is that they only used
it to find him and he happened to be with the goods. They seemed to
have enough evidence on him already, a proper warrant should not have
been an issue.
I'm not against wireless cams, but I don't see any benefit to public
broadcast except at events. thre are certainly other security/safety
issue with it, like having the whole world know you are alone at the
|Re: (Arch Reactor) Wireless Cameras for the Space||Amberly||10/5/12 9:49 AM|
Personally I would we stay with CCTV. If its not on the wifi to begin with it can't be hacked into/posted on internet from the wifi.
From: Chris Weiss <cwe...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, October 5, 2012 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: (Arch Reactor) Wireless Cameras for the Space
--To unsubscribe from this group, send email to arch-reactor+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
|Re: (Arch Reactor) Wireless Cameras for the Space||Altered Ego||10/5/12 9:54 AM|
You also have the possibility of anybody in a reasonable range intercepting the stream. Paul has demonstrated that one effectively. Wireless ip cams are often insecure...might as well be public....
Another problem is that it shows a potential attacker what we have and where it is....of course this could be had by coming to a meeting. But, they would have to be seen...
|Re: (Arch Reactor) Wireless Cameras for the Space||Ben West||10/5/12 9:57 AM|
FWIW, I think I can add another, encrypted SSID to the existing WasabiNet gateway router, using the same radio, but routed independently of the other SSIDs (encrypted or otherwise). This could isolate wireless traffic from any potential IP cams to a PSK2-encrypted SSID with its own very long, very random password. Likewise, hanging a dedicated wireless bridge off the wired LAN would accomplish the same.--
|Re: (Arch Reactor) Wireless Cameras for the Space||Chris||10/5/12 10:03 AM|
the router we have can do this too.
|Re: (Arch Reactor) Wireless Cameras for the Space||Don Ellis||10/5/12 10:08 AM|
I'm having a fantasy of a procedure where, when you enter the space, you turn off the internal cameras, then turn them on when you leave. Record all events while no authorized personnel are present, record nothing while they are present.
This would still record all entry/departure of authorized personnel, but that is probably a good idea anyway (and could also be recovered from alarm logs). Video record of these events would just confirm that the person logging in is the person claimed.
One other item (I haven't been following this closely and it may have already been said) - any recorder needs to be hardened and maybe kept or mirrored in a separate location.
On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 11:54 AM, John Reskusich <john.re...@gmail.com> wrote:
|Re: (Arch Reactor) Wireless Cameras for the Space||BlackTalon||10/5/12 12:42 PM|
I agree with Don about the recorder. We should record to the cloud. If you keep them online its much harder to remove the recorder and tape when you leave. We can always write to more than one location too. We could also use video from the cameras on our website to promote our activities.
I don't think the cameras would be open to the public there is admin and user level access that are password protected. We can create accounts by user and its supports WPA2 Encryption.
User level access is by named user, we can create accounts by user so we know who is accessing it and at what time. We can poll the log files and display the person currently logged in.
The cameras also support recording when there is motion so if nothing is happening then nothing is recorded.
If we make it easy to turn off the cameras and turn them back on it would give people the privacy they want and give us protection at the same time.
|Re: (Arch Reactor) Wireless Cameras for the Space||nfolken||10/5/12 1:34 PM|
I don't like the idea of turning the cameras off when a member is present; such a setup wouldn't help with thefts like that of George's iPhone (lots of members were present). I think there has been talk about setting up some kind of security system with a keypad, which might be a better solution for dealing with break-ins than a remotely monitored security camera.
Personally I think security cameras shouldn't be open to the public. Either CCTV or IP, I think they should be in a closed loop or a private network, and for extra security, maybe with the recorder in a locked and secured box.
|Re: (Arch Reactor) Wireless Cameras for the Space||Ben West||10/5/12 3:37 PM|
Ok, glad the Linksys E1000 can do this as well. Multiple wireless SSIDs (aka Virtual Access Points) are possible on the Buffalo unit, but I'm not 100% certain multiple, independently encrypted SSIDs are possible, especially since I will be soon be adding an adhoc VAP to that gateway router.
On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 7:03 PM, Chris Weiss <cwe...@gmail.com> wrote:
the router we have can do this too.
|Re: Wireless Cameras for the Space||EschewObfuscation||10/5/12 4:29 PM|
I don't mind wired, recording cams, just so long as they include image analysis firmware so that fully paid members are recognized, and any time they're working alone and pick nose or scratch in a crude way, the recording is deleted +/- 10 seconds. Easy peasy, right? :)
|Re: (Arch Reactor) Wireless Cameras for the Space||Chris||10/5/12 9:48 PM|
it's running ddwrt, so all things are possible... with various level
|Re: (Arch Reactor) Re: Wireless Cameras for the Space||Chris||10/5/12 9:50 PM|
sure, I'll implement that right after I finish my dishwasher that loads it self
|EschewObfuscation||10/6/12 10:17 AM||<This message has been deleted.>|