Charles Hayes & Mena

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Charles Hayes & Mena Larry-Jennie 1/23/97 12:00 AM

Found at http://www.idmedia.com/menapage2.htm under "Request"

(From the Linda Ives/Jean Duffey Web site)
The following Charles Hayes Interview Notes is a document generated
by an Arkansas Committee investigator and is one of the documents made
available to U.S. Attorney J. Michael Fitzhugh during his so-called grand
jury investigation of Mena. State Police Investigator Russell Welch, IRS
Investigator Bill Duncan, and other competent investigators compiled a
20,000-page file on the Mena-Airport-based drug smuggling and money
laundering operation of Barry Seal. Neither Welch nor Duncan were ever
called to testify before the jurors, and most of their evidence was never
presented.

The Interview Notes have been transcribed and published on this site for
the purpose of generating as much information as possible on the persons
named. Some names have been deleted to protect their identity. If you
know anything about the present whereabouts of any of the persons
named or if you have information about anyone's involvement with Mena,
the CIA, ADFA, or any other connections involving drug smuggling and
money laundering, please e-mail your information to Jean Duffey. Be
aware that if you do not get a response within a day or two, your e-mail
was not received in which case we would be grateful if you would follow
up with a fax or phone call.

               Charles Hayes Interview Notes

Charles Hayes was contacted by telephone on 7-14-92 by (interviewer's
name deleted). The contact was made through (name deleted) in San
Francisco. Charles Hayes was of interest to the Mena case because
Michael Riconisuito had said that the two men in overall charge of the
operations were Clay Lacy and Charles Hayes. (Name deleted) had on
7-13-92 been given Hayes phone number and supplied the number to the
interviewer. Mr. Hayes had not been known to have had an involvement
with the Mena case previously, but was known to have been involved with
another case in Kentucky, known as the Bluegrass Conspiracy after the
book by that name, and the Inslaw case. He had been described as a
"very heavy hitter" by (name deleted). Gene Wheaton had told the
interviewer that Hayes had once been an owner of 4469P, the Australian
C-130 that had been at Mena. When Mr. Hayes was contacted by phone,
he initially confirmed that he knew Riconisuito and Lacy. After listening to
what the interviewer said was known and had been said about Hayes and
Mena, Hayes said that he would have to have the interviewer "checked
out" before continuing the conversation. The following day, at about 7:30
CST, Hayes was contacted again by phone . . . .

Hayes began by saying that he would not advance any information or
elaborate, but that he would answer questions.

     Q. Do you know Clay Lacey?
     A. Yes.
     Q. Was Lacy involved in the operations at Mena?
     A. Yes, since about 1984.
     Q. Do you know Glenn Conrad?
     A. Yes.
     Q. Do you know Peter Dickens?
     A. Yes.
     Q. Have you ever owned a C-130 from Australia number 4469P?
     A. No, but I know about that plane.
     Q. Was PM involved in the operations at Mena?
     A. Yes, but only a small involvement.
     Q. Was Planters Lumber Co. involved?
     A. Yes, the owners were involved.
     Q. Were Planters Lumber Co. trucks in Mena?
     A. Yes.
     Q. Would you be surprised if cocaine were moved out of the Mena
     area on Planter's trucks?
     A. I hate drug, have never had anything to do with drugs, but I
     would not be surprised. Drugs were imported into Mena, and
     officials were involved.
     Q. Were you in charge of operations at Mena?
     A. I am a contract agent for the CIA. I have been an agent since
     way before the Bay of Pigs invasion. In 1960, George Bush was a
     payroll man for the CIA.
     Q. Do you know Terry Reed?
     A. Yes.
     Q. Have you ever met Terry Reed?
     A. Yes.
     Q. What is your opinion of Terry Reed?
     A. What do you think about what you flush down the toilet?
     Q. Do you know Buddy Beam?
     A. Yes.
     Q. Was Bill Clinton aware of the operations at Mena?
     A. No, but his associates were involved.
     Q. Was there money laundering involved in the Mena operations?
     A. Yes, the main thing about Mena was the political power and
     money associated with it.
     Q. Was Stephens Inc. involved in the money laundering?
     A. Yes, and so was the Northrup Company, all the way up to
     Kenny Northrup.
     Q. Were Kenny Northrup and Robert Chasin involved in the
     money laundering?
     A. Yes.
     Q. Would it be correct to say that the Mena operations generated
     100,000,000 per week?
     A. No, that's too high.
     Q. Would it be correct to say that the Mena operations generated
     1,000 per week?
     A. No, that too low.
     Q. Would it be correct to say 10,000,000?
     A. That's about right.
     Q. Was there DOD involvement in the Mena operations?
     A. Yes, it could not have happened without DOD involvement.
     Q. Do you know Larry Nichols?
     A. Yes.
     Q. Larry Nichols denies that he has ever met you or Clay Lacy.
     A. Nichols and Lacy have had their pictures taken together. Larry
     certainly knows me. If you had robbed Fort Knox, and I knew that
     you had done it, would you admit to knowing me?
     Q. Do Lacy and ADFA have connections?
     A. Yes, Lacy is associated with ADFA.
     Q. Do you know Wooten Epps?
     A. Yes.
     Q. Do you now Bob Nash?
     A. Yes, I was personally present when Barry Seal gave Bob Nash
     a suitcase full of money. I don't take payoffs, and don't like those
     who do.
     Q. Did you know that Bob Nash is currently president of ADFA?
     A. You're kidding.
     Q. No, I have interviewed Bob Nash in his office at ADFA.
     A. I never thought he would get that far.
     Q. Do you know Don Worthy?
     A. Yes.
     Q. Is it correct to say that Don Worthy has an involvement in the
     Mena operations?
     A. Yes, a very important involvement. You are getting close to the
     head of the octopus with Don Worthy.
     Q. Do you know Bob Neal?
     A. Yes.
     Q. Is Bob Neal associated with an underground complex at the
     Hope, Arkansas Airport?
     A. I don't believe he owns it. You are getting into an area that I
     won't talk about. It's the subject of an investigation.
     Q. Do you mean the recently renewed FBI investigation?
     A. (Laugh) No, that's like putting the robbers in with the gold.
     There is another investigation that I'm talking about.
     Q. Is it correct to say that the Arkansas State Police are involved in
     distributing cocaine derived from the Mena Arkansas operations?
     A. Very definitely, and federal people as well.
     Q. Do you now Buddy Young?
     A. (Pause) I won't talk about Buddy Young?
     Q. Do you know Jerry Montgomery?
     A. I won't talk about Jerry Montgomery.
     Q. Do you know David Talachet?
     A. I believe I could pick him out of a crowd.
     Q. Is it correct to say that David Talachet has friends in high
     places?
     A. Sitting in the White House.
     Q. Is it correct to say that Talachet has friends in very high places?
     A. George Bush.
     Q. Do you know Mike Egelston?
     A. Yes.
     Q. Is it correct to say that Egelston worked for Multi-Trade
     International?
     A. I don't believe he gets his check there.
     Q. Do you know Bob Maddern?
     A. Yes.
     Q. Is it correct to say that Maddern worked for Multi-Trade
     International?
     A. I don't believe that he gets his check there. You're going down
     the ladder now.


Contact Jean Duffey

Phone: 1-800-558-4308
Fax: (501)568-1853

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$$                                                     $$
$$  The CIA cocaine smuggling on behalf of the Contras $$
$$  through Mena, Arkansas corrupted the Presidencies  $$
$$  of Bill Clinton, George Bush and Ronald Reagan.    $$
$$  For details, see:                                  $$
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Charles Hayes & Mena John Q. Public 1/24/97 12:00 AM

Larry-Jennie wrote:
>
> Found at http://www.idmedia.com/menapage2.htm under "Request"
>
> (From the Linda Ives/Jean Duffey Web site)
> The following Charles Hayes Interview Notes is a document generated
> by an Arkansas Committee investigator and is one of the documents made
> available to U.S. Attorney J. Michael Fitzhugh during his so-called grand
> jury investigation of Mena. State Police Investigator Russell Welch, IRS
> Investigator Bill Duncan, and other competent investigators compiled a
> 20,000-page file on the Mena-Airport-based drug smuggling and money
> laundering operation of Barry Seal. Neither Welch nor Duncan were ever
> called to testify before the jurors, and most of their evidence was never
> presented.
>
> The Interview Notes have been transcribed and published on this site for
> the purpose of generating as much information as possible on the persons
> named. Some names have been deleted to protect their identity. If you
> know anything about the present whereabouts of any of the persons
> named or if you have information about anyone's involvement with Mena,
> the CIA, ADFA, or any other connections involving drug smuggling and
> money laundering, please e-mail your information to Jean Duffey. Be
> aware that if you do not get a response within a day or two, your e-mail
> was not received in which case we would be grateful if you would follow
> up with a fax or phone call.
>


This is great stuff. How about describing "the Mena operation"
is terms of what it did, how it worked, and when it occurred?


Thus far, Larry has presented an interview from a man whose
credibility he has lambasted for a year. Here comes the piece
de resistance:

>      Q. Do you know Terry Reed?
>      A. Yes.
>      Q. Have you ever met Terry Reed?
>      A. Yes.
>      Q. What is your opinion of Terry Reed?
>      A. What do you think about what you flush down the toilet?

Now, Larry, I'd like you to answer this: do you believe Charles
Hayes? Do you believe that Charles Hayes' obvious distaste
for Terry Reed is justified? Do think it's somewhat hypocritical
for you to blast Bear Bottoms for his claims about Reed, but
present Hayes' negative opinion about Reed without comment?

>      Q. Do you know Buddy Beam?
>      A. Yes.
>      Q. Was Bill Clinton aware of the operations at Mena?
>      A. No, but his associates were involved.

Score another one for Bear Bottoms, I guess.

>      Q. Was there money laundering involved in the Mena operations?
>      A. Yes, the main thing about Mena was the political power and
>      money associated with it.
>      Q. Was Stephens Inc. involved in the money laundering?
>      A. Yes, and so was the Northrup Company, all the way up to
>      Kenny Northrup.
>      Q. Were Kenny Northrup and Robert Chasin involved in the
>      money laundering?
>      A. Yes.
>      Q. Would it be correct to say that the Mena operations generated
>      100,000,000 per week?
>      A. No, that's too high.
>      Q. Would it be correct to say that the Mena operations generated
>      1,000 per week?
>      A. No, that too low.
>      Q. Would it be correct to say 10,000,000?
>      A. That's about right.

Would it be asking too much to request that someone give us a hint
as to the time period involved here?


>      Q. Was there DOD involvement in the Mena operations?
>      A. Yes, it could not have happened without DOD involvement.
>      Q. Do you know Larry Nichols?
>      A. Yes.
>      Q. Larry Nichols denies that he has ever met you or Clay Lacy.
>      A. Nichols and Lacy have had their pictures taken together. Larry
>      certainly knows me. If you had robbed Fort Knox, and I knew that
>      you had done it, would you admit to knowing me?
>      Q. Do Lacy and ADFA have connections?
>      A. Yes, Lacy is associated with ADFA.
>      Q. Do you know Wooten Epps?
>      A. Yes.
>      Q. Do you now Bob Nash?
>      A. Yes, I was personally present when Barry Seal gave Bob Nash
>      a suitcase full of money. I don't take payoffs, and don't like those
>      who do.

I have difficulty believing that this interviewer failed to ask
the obvious followup questions to this response. Has this
transcription been edited, Larry?

Charles Hayes & Mena John Q. Public 1/24/97 12:00 AM

Larry-Jennie wrote:

>
> John Q. Public wrote:
> >This is great stuff. How about describing "the Mena operation"
> >is terms of what it did, how it worked, and when it occurred?
>
> Charles Hayes could describe the Mena operations much better than I.
> If the Department of Justice was on the legit, the US attorneys
> would be grilling Hayes on Mena, rather than pursuing the *too obvious*
> trumped up charge of trying to murder his son.

I think it's quite likely that the US attorneys know perfectly
well what did and did not happen at Mena.

>
> What is known is that Barry Seal worked for the CIA,

Now, the extent to which this is true has been in some dispute
for quite some time. Let's let this pass for right now.


> had his planes
> housed and maintained at Rich Mountain at Mena airport. At least
> some cocaine and money-laundering happened in Mena.  The bulk of
> cocaine was airdropped on several southern states.  

Getting fuzzy. We're no longer talking specifically about Barry Seal
(or are we?), and since that is the (you believe) link to the CIA,
the chain is broken.

> The money is not accounted for.

***What money***?  Whose money? When? From which operation? ?????

> The illegal
> operations continued after Barry Seal's murder.
>
> Investigations and prosecutions of the guilty were blocked by Federal
> and Arkansas state authorities.  George Bush, Edwin Meese, Bill Clinton
> all knew about Mena.

No, no, no!

Quit using "Mena" for shorthand. What *specifically* are you referring
to? A Seal operation? A CIA operation? Private ops? State government
ops? Meth? Cocaine? Heroin? Money laundering? What? When?


>
> >>                Charles Hayes Interview Notes

<intro snipped>

> John Q. Public wrote:
> >Thus far, Larry has presented an interview from a man whose
> >credibility he has lambasted for a year. Here comes the piece
> >de resistance:
>
> And this interview shows that Charles Hayes was involved up to his
> eyeballs in Mena.  

Larry -- he states *in this interview* that he dislikes drugs.
He states *in this interview* that he hates payoffs. You now
must define specifically what you mean here by the "Mena"
he was involved with "up to his eyeballs." No more fuzz.


> He also claims he was Clinton's CIA controller.

Long ago and far away, I believe. He also states that Clinton
himself wasn't aware of operations centered at Mena. It
seems to me that your willingness to believe Charles Hayes
depends entirely on how much you like what he said.

>
> Hayes interview:


> >>      Q. Do you know Terry Reed?
> >>      A. Yes.
> >>      Q. Have you ever met Terry Reed?
> >>      A. Yes.
> >>      Q. What is your opinion of Terry Reed?
> >>      A. What do you think about what you flush down the toilet?
>
> John Q. Public asked:

> >Now, Larry, I'd like you to answer this: do you believe Charles
> >Hayes?
>
> Which part?
>
> Some of what Hayes says is true.  Some is not.  Knowing which is which
> is difficult.  He throws more smoke than anything.

Then why assume that this interview proves that he is "up to
his eyeballs" in "Mena"?

>
> John Q. Public wrote:
> >Do you believe that Charles Hayes' obvious distaste
> >for Terry Reed is justified?
>
> Terry Reed wrote that CIA operatives involved with the cocaine
> were mad at him for removing a bag of cocaine from the shipping container
> in Mexico.  Reed asked his CIA handler to fix the situtation.  Instead,
> his manager came back and asked where the bag went.  Hayes could be
> mad about the missing cocaine as well.
>
> Hayes spokesperson, Orlin Grabbe, has ranted about how Clinton took
> more than his share of the cocaine profits.
>
> If you think Terry Reed taking the CIA's cocaine for proof and insurance
> was wrong, then I guess you think Hayes' distaste for Reed is justified.

I need to be convinced that it happened, before I worry about
whether or not I give it the jqp stamp of approval. I am an
agnostic.

>
> >Do think it's somewhat hypocritical
> >for you to blast Bear Bottoms for his claims about Reed, but
> >present Hayes' negative opinion about Reed without comment?
>
> John Q put words into my mouth.  I have never blasted Bottoms for his
> claims about Reed.

I hereby apologize, if I was mistaken. Perhaps you'd like to take
this perfect opportunity to state whether or not you believe that
Terry Reed ever met and flew with Barry Seal.


>
> I left this post without comment.  I believe it speaks for itself.
>
> Hayes was involved in Mena.  There are many more characters involved
> in this scandal.  There is much more investigating to be done.


A first step would be to delineate what happened, as far as
we think we know, as of now, as accurately as possible. That
requires a timeline. I believe that an accurate
timeline will demonstrate the high probability that there were
several "operations" that used Mena in different ways.

>
> Unfortunately, the Department of Justice, OIC Ken Starr and Congress
> have all dropped the ball.
>
> Hayes interview:


> >>      Q. Do you know Buddy Beam?
> >>      A. Yes.
> >>      Q. Was Bill Clinton aware of the operations at Mena?
> >>      A. No, but his associates were involved.
>
> John Q. Public wrote:
> >Score another one for Bear Bottoms, I guess.
>
> Why are you so enamored with Bear Bottoms?  

I am far from enamored with Bear Bottoms. I find his politics
to be *way* out there. I think that it is wholly ludicrous
to dismiss Bottoms' claims because out of hand, however,
even if his claims threaten some dearly held beliefs. Bottoms
has claimed that Clinton wasn't involved with Seal. Hayes'
statement corroborates it, to the extent that it is credible.


> His claims, beyond being
> a cocaine pilot, are not corroborated, and many sources, far
> more credible than he, contradict him.

I just disagree with this, Larry. I have stated on more than one
occasion that, within the limits of what he knows because of his
direct participation, Bottoms is *the* expert (and many of his claims
have been very well corroborated). Outside of those limits, I
don't really care.


>
> You asked earlier if I believe Hayes.  The claim by Hayes that Clinton
> did not know, but his associates did, is rather odd.  

It's the perfect dodge; it's used frequently. In fact, it is
entirely conceivable that Clinton is using this ploy now.
However, since we have no basis upon which to judge Hayes'
credence in this interview, it's hard to get worked up over.

> Did so many
> things go on behind the governor's back?  Could major league cocaine
> and money laundering go on among Clinton's associates, while he remained
> ignorant?  Or is Hayes' role as Clinton's CIA controller coming into
> play?
>
> Hayes interview:


> >>      Q. Was there money laundering involved in the Mena operations?
> >>      A. Yes, the main thing about Mena was the political power and
> >>      money associated with it.
> >>      Q. Was Stephens Inc. involved in the money laundering?
> >>      A. Yes, and so was the Northrup Company, all the way up to
> >>      Kenny Northrup.
> >>      Q. Were Kenny Northrup and Robert Chasin involved in the
> >>      money laundering?
> >>      A. Yes.
> >>      Q. Would it be correct to say that the Mena operations generated
> >>      100,000,000 per week?
> >>      A. No, that's too high.
> >>      Q. Would it be correct to say that the Mena operations generated
> >>      1,000 per week?
> >>      A. No, that too low.
> >>      Q. Would it be correct to say 10,000,000?
> >>      A. That's about right.
>
> John Q. Public wrote:
> >Would it be asking too much to request that someone give us a hint
> >as to the time period involved here?
>
> Again, Hayes would be the one to ask.

It is a crucial bit of information, isn't it? In fact, it's
so important that, without it, it is virtually impossible
to ascertain, e.g., if Barry Seal was involved in whatever
Hayes is referring to, or even if Clinton was governor.

>
> Hayes interview:


> >>      Q. Was there DOD involvement in the Mena operations?
> >>      A. Yes, it could not have happened without DOD involvement.
> >>      Q. Do you know Larry Nichols?
> >>      A. Yes.
> >>      Q. Larry Nichols denies that he has ever met you or Clay Lacy.
> >>      A. Nichols and Lacy have had their pictures taken together. Larry
> >>      certainly knows me. If you had robbed Fort Knox, and I knew that
> >>      you had done it, would you admit to knowing me?
> >>      Q. Do Lacy and ADFA have connections?
> >>      A. Yes, Lacy is associated with ADFA.
> >>      Q. Do you know Wooten Epps?
> >>      A. Yes.
> >>      Q. Do you now Bob Nash?
> >>      A. Yes, I was personally present when Barry Seal gave Bob Nash
> >>      a suitcase full of money. I don't take payoffs, and don't like those
> >>      who do.
>
> John Q. Public wrote:
> >I have difficulty believing that this interviewer failed to ask
> >the obvious followup questions to this response. Has this
> >transcription been edited, Larry?
>
> I don't know if the transcript has been edited.
>
> Why don't you visit the Ives/Henry web site at:
>    http://www.idmedia.com
>
> You can send comments and questions there.
>

Charles Hayes & Mena Larry-Jennie 1/24/97 12:00 AM

In article <32E854...@globaldialog.com> "John Q. Public" <j...@globaldialog.com>
writes:

>Larry-Jennie wrote:
>>
>> Found at http://www.idmedia.com/menapage2.htm under "Request"
>>
>> (From the Linda Ives/Jean Duffey Web site)
>> The following Charles Hayes Interview Notes is a document generated
>> by an Arkansas Committee investigator and is one of the documents made
>> available to U.S. Attorney J. Michael Fitzhugh during his so-called grand
>> jury investigation of Mena. State Police Investigator Russell Welch, IRS
>> Investigator Bill Duncan, and other competent investigators compiled a
>> 20,000-page file on the Mena-Airport-based drug smuggling and money
>> laundering operation of Barry Seal. Neither Welch nor Duncan were ever
>> called to testify before the jurors, and most of their evidence was never
>> presented.
>>
>> The Interview Notes have been transcribed and published on this site for
>> the purpose of generating as much information as possible on the persons
>> named. Some names have been deleted to protect their identity. If you
>> know anything about the present whereabouts of any of the persons
>> named or if you have information about anyone's involvement with Mena,
>> the CIA, ADFA, or any other connections involving drug smuggling and
>> money laundering, please e-mail your information to Jean Duffey. Be
>> aware that if you do not get a response within a day or two, your e-mail
>> was not received in which case we would be grateful if you would follow
>> up with a fax or phone call.
>>

Jaohn Q. Public wrote:
>This is great stuff. How about describing "the Mena operation"
>is terms of what it did, how it worked, and when it occurred?


Charles Hayes could describe the Mena operations much better than I.
If the Department of Justice was on the legit, the US attorneys
would be grilling Hayes on Mena, rather than pursuing the *too obvious*
trumped up charge of trying to murder his son.

What is known is that Barry Seal worked for the CIA, had his planes


housed and maintained at Rich Mountain at Mena airport. At least some cocaine
and money-laundering happened in Mena.  The bulk of cocaine was airdropped
on several southern states.  The money is not accounted for.  The illegal

operations continued after Barry Seal's murder.

Investigations and prosecutions of the guilty were blocked by Federal
and Arkansas state authorities.  George Bush, Edwin Meese, Bill Clinton
all knew about Mena.  



John Q. Public wrote:
>Thus far, Larry has presented an interview from a man whose
>credibility he has lambasted for a year. Here comes the piece
>de resistance:


And this interview shows that Charles Hayes was involved up to his eyeballs
in Mena.  He also claims he was Clinton's CIA controller.  

Remember when Hayes and his Fifth Column were going to save the country by
"retiring" all these corrupt politicians.  Last I looked, Clinton was
reelected and the corruption of Washington remains a disaster, with
no justice or reform in sight.  

The Fifth Column either totally failed or are not the good guys.  
Considering Hayes intimacy with Clinton and Mena, I just don't expect
him to come to any good.


Hayes interview:


>>      Q. Do you know Terry Reed?
>>      A. Yes.
>>      Q. Have you ever met Terry Reed?
>>      A. Yes.
>>      Q. What is your opinion of Terry Reed?
>>      A. What do you think about what you flush down the toilet?


John Q. Public asked:


>Now, Larry, I'd like you to answer this: do you believe Charles
>Hayes?


Which part?  

Some of what Hayes says is true.  Some is not.  Knowing which is which
is difficult.  He throws more smoke than anything.


John Q. Public wrote:
>Do you believe that Charles Hayes' obvious distaste
>for Terry Reed is justified?


Terry Reed wrote that CIA operatives involved with the cocaine
were mad at him for removing a bag of cocaine from the shipping container
in Mexico.  Reed asked his CIA handler to fix the situtation.  Instead,
his manager came back and asked where the bag went.  Hayes could be
mad about the missing cocaine as well.  

Hayes spokesperson, Orlin Grabbe, has ranted about how Clinton took
more than his share of the cocaine profits.

If you think Terry Reed taking the CIA's cocaine for proof and insurance
was wrong, then I guess you think Hayes' distaste for Reed is justified.


>Do think it's somewhat hypocritical
>for you to blast Bear Bottoms for his claims about Reed, but
>present Hayes' negative opinion about Reed without comment?


John Q put words into my mouth.  I have never blasted Bottoms for his
claims about Reed.

I left this post without comment.  I believe it speaks for itself.

Hayes was involved in Mena.  There are many more characters involved
in this scandal.  There is much more investigating to be done.

Unfortunately, the Department of Justice, OIC Ken Starr and Congress


have all dropped the ball.


Hayes interview:


>>      Q. Do you know Buddy Beam?
>>      A. Yes.
>>      Q. Was Bill Clinton aware of the operations at Mena?
>>      A. No, but his associates were involved.


John Q. Public wrote:
>Score another one for Bear Bottoms, I guess.


Why are you so enamored with Bear Bottoms?  His claims, beyond being


a cocaine pilot, are not corroborated, and many sources, far more credible
than he, contradict him.

You asked earlier if I believe Hayes.  The claim by Hayes that Clinton
did not know, but his associates did, is rather odd.  Did so many


things go on behind the governor's back?  Could major league cocaine
and money laundering go on among Clinton's associates, while he remained
ignorant?  Or is Hayes' role as Clinton's CIA controller coming into
play?


Hayes interview:


>>      Q. Was there money laundering involved in the Mena operations?
>>      A. Yes, the main thing about Mena was the political power and
>>      money associated with it.
>>      Q. Was Stephens Inc. involved in the money laundering?
>>      A. Yes, and so was the Northrup Company, all the way up to
>>      Kenny Northrup.
>>      Q. Were Kenny Northrup and Robert Chasin involved in the
>>      money laundering?
>>      A. Yes.
>>      Q. Would it be correct to say that the Mena operations generated
>>      100,000,000 per week?
>>      A. No, that's too high.
>>      Q. Would it be correct to say that the Mena operations generated
>>      1,000 per week?
>>      A. No, that too low.
>>      Q. Would it be correct to say 10,000,000?
>>      A. That's about right.


John Q. Public wrote:
>Would it be asking too much to request that someone give us a hint
>as to the time period involved here?


Again, Hayes would be the one to ask.

Hayes interview:


>>      Q. Was there DOD involvement in the Mena operations?
>>      A. Yes, it could not have happened without DOD involvement.
>>      Q. Do you know Larry Nichols?
>>      A. Yes.
>>      Q. Larry Nichols denies that he has ever met you or Clay Lacy.
>>      A. Nichols and Lacy have had their pictures taken together. Larry
>>      certainly knows me. If you had robbed Fort Knox, and I knew that
>>      you had done it, would you admit to knowing me?
>>      Q. Do Lacy and ADFA have connections?
>>      A. Yes, Lacy is associated with ADFA.
>>      Q. Do you know Wooten Epps?
>>      A. Yes.
>>      Q. Do you now Bob Nash?
>>      A. Yes, I was personally present when Barry Seal gave Bob Nash
>>      a suitcase full of money. I don't take payoffs, and don't like those
>>      who do.


John Q. Public wrote:
>I have difficulty believing that this interviewer failed to ask
>the obvious followup questions to this response. Has this
>transcription been edited, Larry?


I don't know if the transcript has been edited.

Why don't you visit the Ives/Henry web site at:
   http://www.idmedia.com

You can send comments and questions there.

Larry

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$$                                                     $$
$$  The CIA cocaine smuggling on behalf of the Contras $$
$$  through Mena, Arkansas corrupted the Presidencies  $$
$$  of Bill Clinton, George Bush and Ronald Reagan.    $$
$$  For details, see:                                  $$
$$       ftp://pencil.cs.missouri.edu/pub/mena/        $$
$$                                                     $$
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Charles Hayes & Mena Larry-Jennie 1/25/97 12:00 AM

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 22:29:37 -0600
From: Jean <429...@wt.net>
To: Larry-Jennie <lar...@interaccess.com>
Subject: Re: Charles Hayes & Mena

Larry-Jennie wrote:
>
> Jean,
>
> Do you have any comments regarding John Q. Public's remarks about the
> Hayes interview on your web site?
>
> Thanks,
> Larry


Jean Duffey replied:
Hey,

Never a dull moment, huh?  This e-mail is going to be lengthy
with my comments attached, so if you want to post any or all of
it, please feel free.

Keep up the good work.  You guys are great!

Jean

 
> From: "John Q. Public" <j...@globaldialog.com>
> Newsgroups:
> alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.org.cia
> Subject: Re: Charles Hayes & Mena
> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 00:19:41 -0600


>
> Larry-Jennie wrote:
> >
> > Found at http://www.idmedia.com/menapage2.htm under "Request"
> >
> > (From the Linda Ives/Jean Duffey Web site)
> > The following Charles Hayes Interview Notes is a document generated
> > by an Arkansas Committee investigator and is one of the documents made
> > available to U.S. Attorney J. Michael Fitzhugh during his so-called grand
> > jury investigation of Mena. State Police Investigator Russell Welch, IRS
> > Investigator Bill Duncan, and other competent investigators compiled a
> > 20,000-page file on the Mena-Airport-based drug smuggling and money
> > laundering operation of Barry Seal. Neither Welch nor Duncan were ever
> > called to testify before the jurors, and most of their evidence was never
> > presented.
> >
> > The Interview Notes have been transcribed and published on this site for
> > the purpose of generating as much information as possible on the persons
> > named. Some names have been deleted to protect their identity. If you
> > know anything about the present whereabouts of any of the persons
> > named or if you have information about anyone's involvement with Mena,
> > the CIA, ADFA, or any other connections involving drug smuggling and
> > money laundering, please e-mail your information to Jean Duffey. Be
> > aware that if you do not get a response within a day or two, your e-mail
> > was not received in which case we would be grateful if you would follow
> > up with a fax or phone call.

John Q. Public wrote:
> This is great stuff. How about describing "the Mena operation"
> is terms of what it did, how it worked, and when it occurred?

Jean Duffey wrote:
I don't know what he means, "this is great stuff."  What's great
about it?  It's a request for information and is not intended to
disseminate information.  We ran across these interview notes
and didn't know some of the names mentioned.  We are simply
asking for help in identifying those individuals.  We do not
even suggest that the information in the interview is credible
or truthful or believable.  On the other hand, we don't suggest
it isn't.  We make absolutely no judgment calls about the
contents of the interview notes.  We simply ask for information
about the people mentioned.  How can anything else be read into
such a clear objective?


John Q. Public wrote:
> Thus far, Larry has presented an interview from a man whose
> credibility he has lambasted for a year.


Jean Duffey wrote:
So what?  My credibility was "lambasted" for longer that a year,
because I was a threat to some powerful public officials.  Although
I do not vouch for Hayes or anything he says, I do not dismiss
information offered by someone just because he was discredited by
the government and/or the media.  That is, in fact, a reason to
at least take note of what he has to say.  It is also interesting
to note that Hayes was arrested three weeks after we posted the
interview notes on our website.  We were somewhat concerned the
attention we brought to him may have prompted his arrest, but that
is apparently not the case.


John Q. Public wrote:
>Here comes the piece
> de resistance:

Hayes interview:

> >      Q. Do you know Terry Reed?
> >      A. Yes.
> >      Q. Have you ever met Terry Reed?
> >      A. Yes.
> >      Q. What is your opinion of Terry Reed?
> >      A. What do you think about what you flush down the toilet?


John Q. Public wrote:
> Now, Larry, I'd like you to answer this: do you believe Charles
> Hayes? Do you believe that Charles Hayes' obvious distaste
> for Terry Reed is justified? Do think it's somewhat hypocritical
> for you to blast Bear Bottoms for his claims about Reed, but
> present Hayes' negative opinion about Reed without comment?


Jean Duffey responded:
The only comment I have ever made about Terry Reed is that Russell
Welch says Terry is not what he claims to be.  Russell says he
knows much of the information in Reed's book is accurate, because
Russell is the one who developed it.  Reed then got that information
through Gene Wheaton and used it as his own.  J.Q.P. is suggesting
it is "hypocritical for you to blast Bear Bottoms for his claims about
Reed, but present Hayes' negative opinion about Reed."

It's incredible how J.P.Q. reads so much into something that just
isn't there.  In the first place, where does he get the tiniest
notion that we "present" an opinion about Reed by posting these
interview notes?  Again, the interview notes are for the expressed
and limited purpose of requesting information.  There is nothing to
indicate the we share any of the opinions given by Hayes in that
interview.  Where is J.Q.P. getting such a notion that we are?  In the
second place, Russell Welch certainly shares a "negative opinion" about
Terry Reed, and Russell is one of the very few people who's opinion I
trust completely and explicitly.  It just doesn't follow to argue that
we are hypocritical to "blast" Bottoms because he disputes information
given by Reed.  There's a big difference here.  Russell insists
Reed is a fraud, but his information is not necessarily inaccurate.  
Bottoms claims that everything Reed says about himself and the
information he gives is a lie.  I believe every word Russell says,
I believe very little of what Bottoms says.  Where's the hypocrisy
in that?
 
Hayes interview:

> >      Q. Do you know Buddy Beam?
> >      A. Yes.
> >      Q. Was Bill Clinton aware of the operations at Mena?
> >      A. No, but his associates were involved.


John Q. Public wrote:
> Score another one for Bear Bottoms, I guess.

Jean Duffey wrote:
Now I'm confused.  Is J.Q.P. saying Hayes' is telling the truth
about something?  Here's where his appraisal breaks down.  When
Hayes' makes a statement J.Q.P. agrees with, he claims a "score"
for his team, but everything that doesn't fit his agenda is a lie.  
That simply isn't the way to assess the credibility of information
(It's credible if it's what you want to hear.  It's not credible if
it's not what you want to hear.)  We make absolutely no judgments
about the credibility one way or the other of one word in the
interview notes.  Again, we posted it with a request for information.


Hayes interview:


> >      Q. Was there money laundering involved in the Mena operations?
> >      A. Yes, the main thing about Mena was the political power and
> >      money associated with it.
> >      Q. Was Stephens Inc. involved in the money laundering?
> >      A. Yes, and so was the Northrup Company, all the way up to
> >      Kenny Northrup.
> >      Q. Were Kenny Northrup and Robert Chasin involved in the
> >      money laundering?
> >      A. Yes.
> >      Q. Would it be correct to say that the Mena operations generated
> >      100,000,000 per week?
> >      A. No, that's too high.
> >      Q. Would it be correct to say that the Mena operations generated
> >      1,000 per week?
> >      A. No, that too low.
> >      Q. Would it be correct to say 10,000,000?
> >      A. That's about right.


John Q.  Public wrote:
> Would it be asking too much to request that someone give us a hint
> as to the time period involved here?

Jean Duffey wrote:
Beats me.  That's one of the things we'd like to know.  One more
time, this interview was posted with a request for information.  If
anyone knows the time period or time sequence of what Hayes is
saying, we would like to be informed.


Hayes interview:


> >      Q. Was there DOD involvement in the Mena operations?
> >      A. Yes, it could not have happened without DOD involvement.
> >      Q. Do you know Larry Nichols?
> >      A. Yes.
> >      Q. Larry Nichols denies that he has ever met you or Clay Lacy.
> >      A. Nichols and Lacy have had their pictures taken together. Larry
> >      certainly knows me. If you had robbed Fort Knox, and I knew that
> >      you had done it, would you admit to knowing me?
> >      Q. Do Lacy and ADFA have connections?
> >      A. Yes, Lacy is associated with ADFA.
> >      Q. Do you know Wooten Epps?
> >      A. Yes.
> >      Q. Do you now Bob Nash?
> >      A. Yes, I was personally present when Barry Seal gave Bob Nash
> >      a suitcase full of money. I don't take payoffs, and don't like those
> >      who do.


John Q. Public wrote:
> I have difficulty believing that this interviewer failed to ask
> the obvious followup questions to this response. Has this
> transcription been edited, Larry?


Jean Duffey wrote:
The transcript was edited only in that some names were deleted.  We
are also frustrated that the interview was not thorough.  If it had
been conducted in the manner I would have conducted an interview,
we would not have had to post it requesting information.  We're
trying to fill in the blanks ourselves.  What does it take to get
this very simple point across to J.Q.P?  Is he always so lost?


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
$$                                                     $$
$$  The CIA cocaine smuggling on behalf of the Contras $$
$$  through Mena, Arkansas corrupted the Presidencies  $$
$$  of Bill Clinton, George Bush and Ronald Reagan.    $$
$$  For details, see:                                  $$
$$       ftp://pencil.cs.missouri.edu/pub/mena/        $$
$$                                                     $$
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Charles Hayes & Mena PsychoCop2 1/25/97 12:00 AM

Is Charles Hayes going to be interviewed in conjunction with the Senate
Intelligence Committee directed investigation of possible CIA involvement
in cocaine smuggling?

Charles Hayes & Mena John Q. Public 1/25/97 12:00 AM

I guess I'll quote Duffey:

>"What's great about it? ... We ran across these interview notes

>and didn't know some of the names mentioned."

New names and new threads to check out. That's what's great.

And if Jean Duffey or you were unsure about what "great stuff"
meant, you could have asked before posting something implying
that I've gone off the deep end. But then that wouldn't
advance your agenda of discrediting everyone who doesn't
blindly buy the sermon that you continue to preach.


<interview intro snipped (again)>

Nor do I. But Larry-Jennie has spent a year trying to discredit Hayes,
and that was my point.

Someone please tell Jean Duffey that I have not confused her with
Larry-Jennie. My comment was addressed to Larry-Jennie. Therefore,
Ms. Duffey's comment is interesting, but not too relevant to
the point I was trying to make about Larry-Jennie's presentation.

I can assure Ms. Duffey that, had I read the interview on her
website, I would have had very different comments about it to
address to her.


>Again, the interview notes are for the expressed
>and limited purpose of requesting information.  There is nothing to
>indicate the we share any of the opinions given by Hayes in that
>interview.  Where is J.Q.P. getting such a notion that we are?  

Again, the comment was addressed to Larry-Jennie, not to Duffey.
I have no such "notion" but I do have a sense of wonderment
that Larry-Jennie can spend a year blasting the credibility
of someone, and then use selected statements in this interview
to bolster his position regarding Mena, the CIA, etc.


>In the
>second place, Russell Welch certainly shares a "negative opinion" about
>Terry Reed, and Russell is one of the very few people who's opinion I
>trust completely and explicitly.  It just doesn't follow to argue that
>we are hypocritical

Enough!

Dear Jean Duffey:
If, in the future, you are curious about something I have written,
I would appreciate it if you'd ask for clarification before launching
into a defense that's unnecessary. MY COMMENTS WERE ADDRESSED TO
LARRY-JENNIE, and most assuredly NOT TO YOU.

I have never before even seen a single mention of Hayes by you, Ms.
Duffey. No; I was not addressing you, Ms. Duffey; I was addressing
someone who has made an effort to discredit Chuck Hayes.  

>
>Hayes interview:
>> >      Q. Do you know Buddy Beam?
>> >      A. Yes.
>> >      Q. Was Bill Clinton aware of the operations at Mena?
>> >      A. No, but his associates were involved.
>
>
>John Q. Public wrote:
>> Score another one for Bear Bottoms, I guess.
>
>
>Jean Duffey wrote:
>Now I'm confused.  Is J.Q.P. saying Hayes' is telling the truth
>about something?  Here's where his appraisal breaks down.  When
>Hayes' makes a statement J.Q.P. agrees with, he claims a "score"
>for his team, but everything that doesn't fit his agenda is a lie.  

You don't know me very well, Jean Duffey. In fact, you don't
know me *at all*. In the context of my comments, WHICH WERE
DIRECTED AT SOMEONE WHO HAS METHODICALLY TRIED TO RIP HAYES'
CREDIBILITY APART, the crack about scoring another one for Bear
Bottoms was a jibe.


>That simply isn't the way to assess the credibility of information
>(It's credible if it's what you want to hear.  It's not credible if
>it's not what you want to hear.)

Precisely the point I was making about Larry-Jennie. NOT you.

No comment.

Charles Hayes & Mena John Q. Public 1/26/97 12:00 AM

Larry-Jennie wrote:

>
> Think about it.  Hayes was Clinton's CIA controller.  Hayes was
> involved in Mena.  John Q. Public promotes Grabbe and Hayes.
> John Q. Public goes ballistic when information is spread connecting
> Hayes with Mena.  John Q. Public has been going ballistic whenever
> someone connects Mena with the CIA.  Do you see a pattern here?
>

Uh, not sure. Wait....

Nope. Sorry. I don't even see anything remotely true after
the fourth sentence, which is absurdly overblown. The second
and third sentences, who knows?

Pattern? I'd characterize it as "open choke."

Charles Hayes & Mena Larry-Jennie 1/26/97 12:00 AM

In article <32E992...@globaldialog.com> "John Q. Public" <j...@globaldialog.com>
writes:


Larry-Jennie wrote:
>> Charles Hayes could describe the Mena operations much better than I.
>> If the Department of Justice was on the legit, the US attorneys
>> would be grilling Hayes on Mena, rather than pursuing the *too obvious*
>> trumped up charge of trying to murder his son.

John Q. Public wrote:
>I think it's quite likely that the US attorneys know perfectly
>well what did and did not happen at Mena.


Really?  Would you please explain why you make that assumption?


Larry-Jennie wrote:
>> What is known is that Barry Seal worked for the CIA,


John Q. Public wrote:
>Now, the extent to which this is true has been in some dispute
>for quite some time. Let's let this pass for right now.


The stuff John Q. wants to pass on is usually worth examining.

Seal was involved with the CIA.

As reported by UPI on 11/10/96:

=   After his death Seal was described in a heavily censured
=document called a "Summary of Contra Participants, Confidential
=Witness List," and obtained from the FBI under the Freedom of
=Information Act as having "had deep and unknown ties" with CIA
=officials, The (DALLAS MORNING) News reported.
=   The C-123 registered to Seal and used in the DEA-CIA
=Sandanista sting was shot down seven months later over Nicaragua
=while flying supplies to the anti-Communist Contras.
=   At the controls was Eugene Hasenfus, who was the lone
=survivor.
=   His admissions in captivity cracked open the Iran-Contra
=scandal, which rocked the Reagan Administration.


Larry-Jennie wrote:
>> had his planes
>> housed and maintained at Rich Mountain at Mena airport. At least
>> some cocaine and money-laundering happened in Mena.  The bulk of
>> cocaine was airdropped on several southern states.  

John Q. Public wrote:
>Getting fuzzy. We're no longer talking specifically about Barry Seal
>(or are we?), and since that is the (you believe) link to the CIA,
>the chain is broken.


CIA COCAINE OPERATIONS WERE NEVER LIMITED TO BARRY SEAL.
THEY WENT ON LONG AFTER SEAL WAS ASSASSINATED.
IS THAT CLEAR?

Among the links connecting cocaine traffickers and the CIA are:
  Manuel Noriega
  Oliver North
  John Hull
  Felix Rodriguez
  General Ramon Guillen Davila


>> >>                Charles Hayes Interview Notes

><intro snipped>

Larry-Jennie wrote:
>> And this interview shows that Charles Hayes was involved up to his
>> eyeballs in Mena.  

John Q. Public wrote:
>Larry -- he states *in this interview* that he dislikes drugs.
>He states *in this interview* that he hates payoffs. You now
>must define specifically what you mean here by the "Mena"
>he was involved with "up to his eyeballs." No more fuzz.


Because of CIA "need to know" rules, Hayes would not be so knowledgable
about these Mena figures unless he was involved.  


>> He also claims he was Clinton's CIA controller.


John Q. Public wrote:
>Long ago and far away, I believe. He also states that Clinton
>himself wasn't aware of operations centered at Mena. It
>seems to me that your willingness to believe Charles Hayes
>depends entirely on how much you like what he said.


Think about it.  Hayes was Clinton's CIA controller.  Hayes was

involved in Mena.  John Q. Public promotes Grabbe and Hayes.
John Q. Public goes ballistic when information is spread connecting
Hayes with Mena.  John Q. Public has been going ballistic whenever
someone connects Mena with the CIA.  Do you see a pattern here?  


Larry-Jennie wrote:
>> Why are you so enamored with Bear Bottoms?  


John Q. Public wrote:
>I am far from enamored with Bear Bottoms. I find his politics
>to be *way* out there. I think that it is wholly ludicrous
>to dismiss Bottoms' claims because out of hand, however,
>even if his claims threaten some dearly held beliefs. Bottoms
>has claimed that Clinton wasn't involved with Seal. Hayes'
>statement corroborates it, to the extent that it is credible.


Bottoms has made claims about Russell Welch and William Duncan
which have turned out to be false.  Why should we believe a
U.S. government-connected drug pilot?

Larry

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
$$                                                     $$
$$  The CIA cocaine smuggling on behalf of the Contras $$
$$  through Mena, Arkansas corrupted the Presidencies  $$
$$  of Bill Clinton, George Bush and Ronald Reagan.    $$
$$  For details, see:                                  $$
$$       ftp://pencil.cs.missouri.edu/pub/mena/        $$
$$                                                     $$
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Charles Hayes & Mena Larry-Jennie 1/26/97 12:00 AM

In article <32EBDB...@globaldialog.com> "John Q. Public" <j...@globaldialog.com> writes:

>Larry-Jennie wrote:
>>
>> In article <32E992...@globaldialog.com> "John Q. Public"
><j...@globaldialog.com>
>> writes:
>>
>> Larry-Jennie wrote:
>> >> Charles Hayes could describe the Mena operations much better than I.
>> >> If the Department of Justice was on the legit, the US attorneys
>> >> would be grilling Hayes on Mena, rather than pursuing the *too obvious*
>> >> trumped up charge of trying to murder his son.
>>
>> John Q. Public wrote:
>> >I think it's quite likely that the US attorneys know perfectly
>> >well what did and did not happen at Mena.


Larry-Jennie wrote

>> Really?  Would you please explain why you make that assumption?


John Q. Public wrote:
>Just deferring to your frequently voiced opinion that they
>all had material with which to pursue charges but were
>prohibited from or declined to prosecuting them.


Not *all* U.S. Attorneys have material to pursue charges against
CIA operatives and assets for cocaine trafficking.  Here is
another example of John Q's dishonest debating style.

The U.S. Attorneys who didn't present CIA cocaine evidence to
grand juries were Reagan/Bush appointees in Miami and Arkansas.

OTOH, the U.S. Attorney's office in Lexington, KY is not likely
to go after Hayes with a serious prosecution, either.  It was
that office which sold Hayes used computers, which just
*coincidentally*
had Inslaw PROMIS installed on them.  Funny how that worked out.
Especially since Hayes had worked with Inslaw PROMIS with the CIA.

Well then again, maybe John Q. is right about the U.S. Attorney
who is bringing charges against Hayes.  He may know plenty about
Mena.  And he is doing exactly what he is being told to do.

Consequently, he has not ventured down the Mena road with Hayes.

Larry

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
$$                                                     $$
$$  The CIA cocaine smuggling on behalf of the Contras $$
$$  through Mena, Arkansas corrupted the Presidencies  $$
$$  of Bill Clinton, George Bush and Ronald Reagan.    $$
$$  For details, see:                                  $$
$$       ftp://pencil.cs.missouri.edu/pub/mena/        $$
$$                                                     $$
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Charles Hayes & Mena Larry-Jennie 1/26/97 12:00 AM

In article <32EBDF...@globaldialog.com> "John Q. Public"
<j...@globaldialog.com> writes:


>Larry-Jennie wrote:
>>
>> Think about it.  Hayes was Clinton's CIA controller.  Hayes was
>> involved in Mena.  John Q. Public promotes Grabbe and Hayes.
>> John Q. Public goes ballistic when information is spread connecting
>> Hayes with Mena.  John Q. Public has been going ballistic whenever
>> someone connects Mena with the CIA.  Do you see a pattern here?

John Q. Public wrote:
>Uh, not sure. Wait....

>Nope. Sorry. I don't even see anything remotely true after
>the fourth sentence, which is absurdly overblown. The second
>and third sentences, who knows?


"Hayes was Clinton's CIA controller."

Excerpt from:
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 21:17:31 -0500 (EST)
From: KALL...@delphi.com
Subject: Chuck Hayes Versus Bill Clinton

           Chuck Hayes Versus Bill Clinton

                  by J. Orlin Grabbe

<snip>

        On Monday, August 5, shortly after the Strauss
visit, Chuck Hayes had a meeting with Bill Clinton.  
Clinton had requested the meeting to discuss the issues
Strauss had raised.  Clinton and Hayes had known each
other for years:  Chuck Hayes had been Bill Clinton's CIA
controller, after Clinton was recruited into the CIA by
Cord Meyer of the London CIA station.  Hayes had
supervised Clinton's forays into the Soviet Union, and it
was Hayes who had gotten Clinton out of not-so-
infrequent trouble while Clinton served the agency.


"Hayes was involved in Mena."

Hayes interview 7/14/92
(Hayes began the interview by saying that he would not advance any
information or elaborate, but that he would answer questions.)


     Q. Do you know Clay Lacey?
     A. Yes.
     Q. Was Lacy involved in the operations at Mena?
     A. Yes, since about 1984.
     Q. Do you know Glenn Conrad?
     A. Yes.
     Q. Do you know Peter Dickens?
     A. Yes.
     Q. Have you ever owned a C-130 from Australia number 4469P?
     A. No, but I know about that plane.
     Q. Was PM involved in the operations at Mena?
     A. Yes, but only a small involvement.
     Q. Was Planters Lumber Co. involved?
     A. Yes, the owners were involved.
     Q. Were Planters Lumber Co. trucks in Mena?
     A. Yes.


"John Q. Public promotes Grabbe and Hayes."

Excerpt from:


From: "John Q. Public" <j...@globaldialog.com>
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
Subject: Re: Will Filegate Bring Down the FBI?
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 19:44:04 -0500

=>Lucile V. Wilson wrote:
=>>
=>> In <3218B8...@aci.net> "J. Orlin Grabbe" <kall...@aci.net>
writes:
=>>
=>> >
=>> >                Will Filegate Bring Down the FBI?
=>> >
=>> >                        by J. Orlin Grabbe
=>> >
=>
<snip>
=>
=>> J. Orlin Grabbe is full of crap.  What magazine or newspaper does he
=>> write for?  The FBI will not come down, you can bet on that and
anyone
=>> that believes that is stupid...stupid.  Letting Starr in on all this
=>> information could do damage to society as a whole. Who is this man to
=>> be able to go through all of the files?  The FBI is doing Starrs work
=>> for him.  He is doing far little...he does his job after the agents
=>> find something he can possibly go after.
=>>
=>> Lu (Lucile)
=>
=>(John Q. Public wrote)
=>Lu:
=>
=>Here's a tip from someone who tries to not go after you.
=>Orlin is right, and you are wrong, and the FBI files-WHODB
=>scandal is going to blast the Clinton administration out of
=>the White House, or the U.S. will settle into a KGB style
=>nightmare.
=>
=>Believe me, Lu. Filegate's going to make Watergate look like
=>kid stuff.

(BTW, when are the WHODB files going to blast the Clinton
adminstration?)


"John Q. Public goes ballistic when information is spread connecting
Hayes with Mena."  

Go back to the first post in this thread.  Instead of discussing the
merits of the evidence, John Q. immediately broke out into demonizing me.
He would not debate the merits on the Clinton Scandals email list
where flaming is not tolerated.

John Q. Public has ***NEVER*** allowed an honest discussion of Mena
and the CIA without him opening up a flame war.


"John Q. Public has been going ballistic whenever
someone connects Mena with the CIA."


No.

He only forms tag teams with drug pilots like Billy Bob Bottoms.

Larry

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
$$                                                     $$
$$  The CIA cocaine smuggling on behalf of the Contras $$
$$  through Mena, Arkansas corrupted the Presidencies  $$
$$  of Bill Clinton, George Bush and Ronald Reagan.    $$
$$  For details, see:                                  $$
$$       ftp://pencil.cs.missouri.edu/pub/mena/        $$
$$                                                     $$
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Charles Hayes & Mena Larry-Jennie 1/26/97 12:00 AM

In article <32ec582f...@news.wco.com> tpd@tcsn.netNOSPAM (Wayne
Mann) writes:
>>Larry-Jennie wrote:
>>>
>>> Found at http://www.idmedia.com/menapage2.htm under "Request"
>>>
>>> (From the Linda Ives/Jean Duffey Web site)
>>> The following Charles Hayes Interview Notes is a document generated
>>> by an Arkansas Committee investigator


Wayne Mann wrote:
>        I have been told that THIS CHuck HAYES and the Kentucky
>Hayes are two different people.  I do NOT know this for a
>fact, but I was told this by a reliable source, however the
>source could be wrong, but it might be worth checking out.
>Thank you.


How could anyone check out a source you do not name?

The Charles Hayes in questions was involved in the Contra resupply
operation and Mena.

From
The INSALW Rebuttal to the Bua Report

     "Hayes had previously told Mr. and Ms. Hamilton that he met
with Earl Brian, Richard Secord and Oliver North in Sao Paulo,
Brazil, in the mid-1980's while those three individuals were
purchasing weapons for the Contras in Nicaragua, and Brian was
marketing INSLAW's PROMIS software to the Government of Brazil."


Here is an Orlin Grabbe post excerpt showing this is the same
"Chuck Hayes" whom he is using as his primary source:

Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 19:14:51 -0500 (EST)
From: KALL...@delphi.com
Subject: Earl Brian Convicted in California

                Earl Brian Convicted in California

                    by J. Orlin Grabbe

<snip>

        He also made a sale of PROMIS to the government
of Brazil.  In the deposition of Charles Hayes, (*Inslaw and
Hamilton versus the United States of America*, United
States Court of Federal Claims, Congressional Reference
No. 95-338X) is the following exchange:

Q.  Do you have any documents in your possession that
pertain to computer software called FOIMS? . . .

A. . . . What you call FOIMS is PROMIS Enhanced
software, whether you like it or not. . . . Now, whether it's
called FOIMS, TECS or whatever it's called, to me it--you
can take a Chevrolet emblem off of a Chevrolet car,
ma'am, and you can put Ford on it, but its still Chevrolet.
. . .

Q.  Do you know Doctor Earl Brian?

A.  I met Earl Brian, yes, ma'am.

Q.  When did you meet him?

A.  In Brazil.

Q.  When?

A.  In the '80's.

Q.  What did Doctor Brian look like?

A.  Big tall fellow.  Got a big foot on him too.

Q.  How did you meet him?

A.  He was selling some software.

Q.  In Brazil?

A.  Yes, ma'am.

Q.  And what type of software was that?

A.  PROMIS.

Q.  So Doctor Brian was selling PROMIS in Brazil?

A.  Uh huh (affirmative response).

Q.  Who was he trying to sell it to?

A.  Brazilian government.  . . .

Q.  So you--the reason you know it was PROMIS was
because Doctor Brian said it was PROMIS?

A.  In front of everybody there, yes, ma'am.

Q.  Did he say it was INSLAW's PROMIS?

A.  No.

Q.  Are you aware of any other companies that developed
a product called PROMIS?

A.  For reasons of national security right now, I will not
answer that.

Q.  I am not talking about government programs.

A.  What did I just say, ma'am?

Q.  I'm talking about private companies.

A.  Well, sometimes private companies, you might not
believe this, Ms. Cook, that you think are private is owned
by the United States government.  Either that or my daddy
or somebody told me awful wrong.

Q.  So did you sign an agreement with Doctor Brian not to
disclose anything about this?

A.  No, ma'am, I signed no agreements at any time.  Didn't
ever, and never will as long as the day I live, sign a
contract or anything else with Mr. Earl Brian.

Q.  Which Brailian government agencies did he try to sell
PROMIS to?

A.  Well, you don't sell it to agencies.  They are not like
over here, ma'am, they don't have agencies over there.  
Brazil and the United States is totally different.  And in
Brazil you sell to the government, and they figure out
which agencies get it.

And now we know from the Arkansas Committee interview that
Chuck Hayes was deeply involved in Mena.  Obviously Clinton's
CIA controller, as Hayes described himself, would be in the
thick of the Mena crimes.

Larry

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
$$                                                     $$
$$  The CIA cocaine smuggling on behalf of the Contras $$
$$  through Mena, Arkansas corrupted the Presidencies  $$
$$  of Bill Clinton, George Bush and Ronald Reagan.    $$
$$  For details, see:                                  $$
$$       ftp://pencil.cs.missouri.edu/pub/mena/        $$
$$                                                     $$
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Charles Hayes & Mena John Q. Public 1/26/97 12:00 AM

Larry-Jennie wrote:
>
> In article <32E992...@globaldialog.com> "John Q. Public" <j...@globaldialog.com>
> writes:
>
> Larry-Jennie wrote:
> >> Charles Hayes could describe the Mena operations much better than I.
> >> If the Department of Justice was on the legit, the US attorneys
> >> would be grilling Hayes on Mena, rather than pursuing the *too obvious*
> >> trumped up charge of trying to murder his son.
>
> John Q. Public wrote:
> >I think it's quite likely that the US attorneys know perfectly
> >well what did and did not happen at Mena.
>
> Really?  Would you please explain why you make that assumption?


Just deferring to your frequently voiced opinion that they
all had material with which to pursue charges but were
prohibited from or declined to prosecuting them.

Charles Hayes & Mena John Q. Public 1/26/97 12:00 AM

Larry-Jennie wrote:
>

Why are you spreading rumors, Larry?

Charles Hayes & Mena John Q. Public 1/26/97 12:00 AM

Larry-Jennie wrote:

> He only forms tag teams with drug pilots like Billy Bob Bottoms.
>

Are you going to attend the big polygraph shootout, Larry?
Or are you planning on being sick that day?

Charles Hayes & Mena John Q. Public 1/26/97 12:00 AM

Larry-Jennie wrote:

"Larry promotes Grabbe."

>
> "Hayes was Clinton's CIA controller."
>
> Excerpt from:
> Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 21:17:31 -0500 (EST)
> From: KALL...@delphi.com
> Subject: Chuck Hayes Versus Bill Clinton
>
>            Chuck Hayes Versus Bill Clinton
>
>                   by J. Orlin Grabbe
>
> <snip>
>
>         On Monday, August 5, shortly after the Strauss
> visit, Chuck Hayes had a meeting with Bill Clinton.
> Clinton had requested the meeting to discuss the issues
> Strauss had raised.  Clinton and Hayes had known each
> other for years:  Chuck Hayes had been Bill Clinton's CIA
> controller, after Clinton was recruited into the CIA by
> Cord Meyer of the London CIA station.  Hayes had
> supervised Clinton's forays into the Soviet Union, and it
> was Hayes who had gotten Clinton out of not-so-
> infrequent trouble while Clinton served the agency.
>


"After ripping Hayes' credibility for a year, Larry
suddenly finds that Hayes is telling the truth without having
any corroboration whatsoever."

<snip>

> =>
> =>Here's a tip from someone who tries to not go after you.
> =>Orlin is right, and you are wrong, and the FBI files-WHODB
> =>scandal is going to blast the Clinton administration out of
> =>the White House, or the U.S. will settle into a KGB style
> =>nightmare.
> =>
> =>Believe me, Lu. Filegate's going to make Watergate look like
> =>kid stuff.
>
> (BTW, when are the WHODB files going to blast the Clinton
> adminstration?)


Probably starting next week, Larry. Unless our dear POTUS
manages to take advantage of a war, a disaster, a diversion.
Soon, Larry. It's big, and it's bad, and it's scary. Nixonesque,
you might say, except you'd be grossly understating the scale
of it.

You've been patient, Larry, and I appreciate it. WHODB, Larry.
Remember who told ya, bay-bee. Me and Orlin. Orlin and me.
Oh, yeah, and Garry Ray. And George Archibald. and lots
more people. But you did hear it from me first, Larry.
I normally don't care who gets credit for what, but in this
case, I'll make an exception, for you.


>
> "John Q. Public goes ballistic when information is spread connecting
> Hayes with Mena."

You know I can't allow a discussion about Hayes and Mena, Larry.
You know where that will lead. No sir, can't allow it. In fact,
if you know a way I can remove my post about it from the DejaNews
archives, I'd appreciate some help. Otherwise, anyone will be
able to read my blistering attack on your unfettered hypocrisy.

Nope. Can't allow it.

<snip>


>
> John Q. Public has ***NEVER*** allowed an honest discussion of Mena
> and the CIA without him opening up a flame war.

Larry -- an "honest" discussion doesn't mean an ideologically
driven discussion. I tried to have honest discussions on ciadrugs.
Bottoms is telling the truth, as far as I can tell. You don't
want to hear it. There's not much else to say, is there?


>
> "John Q. Public has been going ballistic whenever
> someone connects Mena with the CIA."

Please, connect it. After I figured out that there really
isn't much to go on, I've been waiting for someone to produce
the corroboration that was lacking. Still waiting.
Maybe some polygraph tests all around will convince me.
Set it up, will ya?

Charles Hayes & Mena John Q. Public 1/27/97 12:00 AM

Oh, yeah. Ed Immler. Ed Immler did the major share of the
grunt work, developing the WHODB background. He gets credit,
Larry, lots of it.


>
> >
> > "John Q. Public goes ballistic when information is spread connecting
> > Hayes with Mena."
>
> You know I can't allow a discussion about Hayes and Mena, Larry.
> You know where that will lead. No sir, can't allow it. In fact,
> if you know a way I can remove my post about it from the DejaNews
> archives, I'd appreciate some help. Otherwise, anyone will be
> able to read my blistering attack on your unfettered hypocrisy.
>
> Nope. Can't allow it.
>
> <snip>
>
> >
> > John Q. Public has ***NEVER*** allowed an honest discussion of Mena
> > and the CIA without him opening up a flame war.
>
> Larry -- an "honest" discussion doesn't mean an ideologically
> driven discussion. I tried to have honest discussions on ciadrugs.
> Bottoms is telling the truth, as far as I can tell. You don't
> want to hear it. There's not much else to say, is there?
>
> >
> > "John Q. Public has been going ballistic whenever
> > someone connects Mena with the CIA."
>
> Please, connect it. After I figured out that there really
> isn't much to go on, I've been waiting for someone to produce
> the corroboration that was lacking. Still waiting.
> Maybe some polygraph tests all around will convince me.
> Set it up, will ya?


Bye bye, Larry.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Prediction of the decade:  "The public will never believe the
innocence of the Clintons & their loyal staff."  -- author unknown

Charles Hayes & Mena CNS 1/30/97 12:00 AM

In article <lar-jen.32...@interaccess.com>,
lar...@interaccess.com (Larry-Jennie) wrote:

> Found at http://www.idmedia.com/menapage2.htm under "Request"
>
> (From the Linda Ives/Jean Duffey Web site)
> The following ... is one of the documents made available

> to U.S. Attorney J. Michael Fitzhugh during his so-called
> grand jury investigation of Mena....

What is a "so-called grand jury?"  Grand jury is a technical legal term.
Either it is a grand jury or it is not.  The writer's opinion of its
process and/or findings is not relevant to its status.  Such things are
red flags signaling that there is nothing to be gained from reading this
writer any further.

J. Ransom Clark
Political Science Department
Muskingum College

Charles Hayes & Mena Larry-Jennie 1/31/97 12:00 AM

In article <rclark-3001...@clark.cam.muskingum.edu> rcl...@muskingum.edu (CNS) writes:

>In article <lar-jen.32...@interaccess.com>,
>lar...@interaccess.com (Larry-Jennie) wrote:

>> Found at http://www.idmedia.com/menapage2.htm under "Request"
>>
>> (From the Linda Ives/Jean Duffey Web site)
>> The following ... is one of the documents made available
>> to U.S. Attorney J. Michael Fitzhugh during his so-called
>> grand jury investigation of Mena....


J. Ransom Clark wrote:
>What is a "so-called grand jury?"  Grand jury is a technical legal term.
>Either it is a grand jury or it is not.  The writer's opinion of its
>process and/or findings is not relevant to its status.  Such things are
>red flags signaling that there is nothing to be gained from reading this
>writer any further.


It means that there were several grand juries charged to hear evidence
about CIA narcotics and money-laundering activities in Arkansas, but
which lacked the U.S. attorney presenting available evidence or to issue
subpoenas to the proper witnesess, as well as ask them questions leading to
developing indictments.


Excerpt from:
THE CRIMES OF MENA
Article by Sally Denton and Roger Morris
Penthouse
July, 1995


    By 1992, to Duncan's and Welch's mounting dismay, several
other official inquiries into the alleged Mena connection were
similarly ineffectual or were stifled altogether, furthering their
suspicions of government collusion and cover-up. In his
testimony before Congress, Duncan said the IRS "withdrew
support for the operations" and further directed him to "withhold
information from Congress and perjure myself."
     Duncan later testified that he had never before experienced
"anything remotely akin to this type of interference.... Alarms
were going off," he continued, "and as soon as (U.S. Attorney)
Mr. Fitzhugh got involved, he was more aggressive in not allowing the
subpoenas and in interfering in the investigative process."
     State policeman Russell Welch felt he was "probably the most
knowledgeable person" regarding the activities at Mena, yet he
was not initially subpoenaed to testify before the grand jury.
     Welch testified later that the only reason he was ultimately
subpoenaed at all was because one of the grand jurors was from
Mena and "told the others that if they wanted to know something
about the Mena airport, they ought to ask that guy [Welch] out
there in the hall."
     State Attorney General Bryant, in a 1991 letter to the office of
Lawrence Walsh, the independent counsel in the Iran-Contra
investigation, wondered "why no one was prosecuted in Arkansas
despite a mountain of evidence that Seal was using Arkansas as
his principle staging area during the years 1982 through 1985."

Larry

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
$$                                                     $$
$$  The CIA cocaine smuggling on behalf of the Contras $$
$$  through Mena, Arkansas corrupted the Presidencies  $$
$$  of Bill Clinton, George Bush and Ronald Reagan.    $$
$$  For details, see:                                  $$
$$       ftp://pencil.cs.missouri.edu/pub/mena/        $$
$$                                                     $$
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


Charles Hayes & Mena Michael Rivero 2/8/97 12:00 AM

In article <32EBFE...@interaccess.com>,

Larry-Jennie  <lar...@interaccess.com> wrote:
>In article <32E992...@globaldialog.com> "John Q. Public" <j...@globaldialog.com>
>writes:
>
>
>Larry-Jennie wrote:
>>> Charles Hayes could describe the Mena operations much better than I.
>>> If the Department of Justice was on the legit, the US attorneys
>>> would be grilling Hayes on Mena, rather than pursuing the *too obvious*
>>> trumped up charge of trying to murder his son.
>
>John Q. Public wrote:
>>I think it's quite likely that the US attorneys know perfectly
>>well what did and did not happen at Mena.
>
>
>Really?  Would you please explain why you make that assumption?

  Yes, I'm also interested in this statement. It's somewhat reckless
given the fact that Clinton, upon first entering office fired ALL the
U.S. Attorneys and replaced them with cronies.  No U.S. Attorney presently
in office was in that office during Mena's heyday. Hencew, whatever they
may think about Mena is second hand info, provided by the government
(which has a vested interest in keeping certain operations secret).

  Contraryt to the above statemnt, no existing U.S. Attorney is in a position
to have any first-hand knowledge of Mena.

--
RANCHO RUNNAMUKKA | Special Effects / Documentary Films
Mike & Claire - The Rancho Runnamukka http://www.accessone.com/~rivero/