Mapping conflict for "place"

[Frank Bennett]

The script that generated the field mapping tables extracted at
http://gsl-nagoya-u.net/http/pub/csl-fields/ kicked up a warning that
Zotero "place" is mapped to both "publisher-place" and to "event-
place". At first I thought this must mean that only one of "event-
place" or "publisher-place" can be assigned to a given CSL item.

The problem turns out to be a little more subtle, and in its way a
little more serious. Zotero is shipping the content of its "place"
field to _both_ of these CSL fields, in all item types.

This seems to work fine in current use cases. But it creates some
nasty traps for the unwary that could be very frustrating for style
authors, and cause styles originally written in other environments
[1]_ to break in Zotero:

(1) Contrary to the ordinary expectation, it is not possible to use
both fields in the same record (at least not meaningfully);

(2) It is not possible to make conditional formatting turn on
whether there is a value in one of the fields rather than the other;

(3) Styles that use both of these fields _must_ test for item type
whenever they are used, to assure that they are never rendered
together in the same cite.

I'd like to request that a ticket be opened for this, to be resolved
the next time there is an opening to reshuffle Zotero's data
structures.


.. [1] Of which there are currently none, I guess, but you know,
eventually.

Frank

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[Frank Bennett]

On May 6, 12:46 pm, Frank Bennett <biercena...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The script that generated the field mapping tables extracted  athttp://gsl-nagoya-u.net/http/pub/csl-fields/kicked up a warning that

> Zotero "place" is mapped to both "publisher-place" and to "event-
> place".  At first I thought this must mean that only one of "event-
> place" or "publisher-place" can be assigned to a given CSL item.
>
> The problem turns out to be a little more subtle, and in its way a
> little more serious.  Zotero is shipping the content of its "place"
> field to _both_ of these CSL fields, in all item types.
>
> This seems to work fine in current use cases.  But it creates some
> nasty traps for the unwary that could be very frustrating for style
> authors, and cause styles originally written in other environments
> [1]_ to break in Zotero:
>
>   (1) Contrary to the ordinary expectation, it is not possible to use
> both fields in the same record (at least not meaningfully);
>
>   (2) It is not possible to make conditional formatting turn on
> whether there is a value in one of the fields rather than the other;
>
>   (3) Styles that use both of these fields _must_ test for item type
> whenever they are used, to assure that they are never rendered
> together in the same cite.
>
> I'd like to request that a ticket be opened for this, to be resolved
> the next time there is an opening to reshuffle Zotero's data
> structures.

Bumping this item, with a note that it's important because it affects
the integrity of CSL as a language. There's no immediate urgency, but
if a ticket can be opened for it, that would be great.

Frank

[ma...@tillheilmann.info]

Following up on Frank here, almost seven years later. I am in the (seemingly unending) process of writing a CSL style (for use with Zotero, mostly) that supports all types and fields in a meaningful way. It is MUCH harder than I had assumed and I am still not finished. Anyway: As far as I can tell, it is still (i.e. with Zotero 4.0.29.x) not possible to use both publisher-place and event-place in one record, right? My "complete" style would need this for artworks and conference papers at least, maybe also for interviews. Any chance on getting this functionality in one of the next releases? Thanks for all the hard work! –Till

[Sebastian Karcher]

We'll do field updates as part of version 5.1 and I'd hope we include
this. Until then, I think you should be able to do this by adding
event-place: Basel into Zotero's Extra field, but I haven't tested it.

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[ma...@tillheilmann.info]

Yep, that's right. But when you want to use *both* fields in a record with Zotero then you have to give *both* values in the Extra field and leave Zotero's "official" publisher place field empty. Thanks! –Till

(Nice touch with "Basel", btw, but I live in Bochum now :-)

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[ma...@tillheilmann.info]

Quick addition: As Frank originally said, the problem is subtle. For

now, I think, there can be no support in CSL styles for records that

have both a publisher-place and (optionally) an event-place. (And

this, I guess, would be the norm for conference papers and artworks.)

The reason being, of course, that when a record has a publisher-place

but no event-place (as most, but not all, records will), any value put

into Zotero’s "official" publisher place field shows up twice in the

cite. And in these, much more common, cases it would too much of a

hassle to have users ignore the "official" Zotero field for

publisher-place and use the Extra field. I guess it’ll have to wait

for the 5.1 release. –Till

[Sebastian Karcher]

We should just get rid of the double-mapping, though -- that's just
annoying, as Till explains.
I thought we did that already, but maybe it turned out more complicated
than I thought?

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[Rintze Zelle]

See https://github.com/citation-style-language/zotero-bits/issues/6.

We still need to create a full proposal for this. Zotero needs to replace its "place" field by two new ones (to map to CSL's "event-place" and "publisher-place"). We need to come up with names for these new Zotero fields and their label. Then we also need to discuss how to migrate existing data, and decide which items need which fields.

Rintze

[ma...@tillheilmann.info]

I have tried to compile a complete list of suggested changes to the mapping of place fields in https://github.com/citation-style-language/zotero-bits/issues/6. Maybe you find it useful.