What should be in the first build of the game.

[lonefool]

Mariodante and I, talked a while ago and we decided that it would probably be in our best interest to first make a simple version of the game, then after that we can make updates so that we can add content and complexity to the the game. That way we can reduce the stress on the the entire team.

Now we should talk about what we want in that first build and discuss what we think is possible. After we finish that we will need assign responsibilities and to try and set a dead line for different portions of the game.

[Mariodante]

Hey, I think that for the prototype of the game we should definitely keep it simple and then add plenty more from there, I just want to point out that we should make sure that in our prototype we set it up specifically so that it does have a lot of room for building upon and nothing hits any dead ends.  I presume we should probably have a knowledgeable programmer take a look at the overview of what we want (which I will post soon) and then give their input on what we should do for the prototype/base of the game.  Hopefully we can add more abilities to interact with the Yukkuri, items, options, areas to visit, etc. later in. 

[lonefool]

Yeah that is pretty solid plan. Also we should try and add a saving/loading system for the game since it is going to be longer then one of those quick abuse type games.

[Mielle]

You always build prototypes for games to see if they're any fun, what kind of design decisions need to be made in the future, if your current solution works... I'd love to see the overview so I can get a better idea of how to build things. Right now I'm looking at the following:

Yukkuri breeding, growth, interactions, items, and personalities; environments, world events, and unlockables; different environments with a shop and in-world avatar; currency; world persistence.

Out of all of that, I'd probably make 2-3 yukkuri for the first version, give them some basic personalities and interactions (Mishter Tweasure belongs to Weimu!), and make them have babies. Then save them for later.

[lonefool]

Great Mariodante and I had come up with a similar decision before we made the google group. Here are some things I thought of, I'd like to hear what you guys think about them. I know not all of them or even none of them may go into the first build but I am just trying to say my ideas for what Mielle said.

Type/Verity

Well for the first build I would go further and say that we should just have  the standard 2 types (Reimu & Marisa), and if we add a third type it should be Alice (to act as a raper and be the first possible type to be unlocked.) Any others should be added in later builds or patches.

Breeding/Pregnancy/Birth

I think that the Yukkuri in the game should use stalk pregnancy just so that the player knows what the babies are. Plus it is easier to tell that the Yukkuri is pregnant that way, yu lovers will think it is cute, and abusers will enjoy tormenting them. As for how they do it, I think that it should either be random depending on their parameters (obedience, like if you gave them permission to breed or not, and some other stats), you could possibly shake them since that turns them on apparently), or they could be raped by another yukkuri. I do however believe that we should follow the idea that refreshing has a 100% chance of pregnancy. We will need to decide upon how long it takes for the babies to be born, as well as the chances of what babies appear on the stalk. Then we must decide if the behavior and tolerances of the pregnant yukkuri change when it is pregnant (such as is it more likely to make demands, is it more happy, will it be unhappy if there are little or no babies that are of the same type as it, or will it need to eat more, or will it be more sensitive emotionally/physically? Plus we should decide how the father acts towards the pregnant yu and it's children. Will we have it so that there are ways to influence the pregnancy (make happen sooner or later)? How much will the parent's personality and attributes effect the babies, will its condition and the way it is treated while it is pregnant effect  how the babies turn out? After they are born how will there parent's treat them? How much will they care about them?

 Growth

For growth we should have  it so they start as koyukkuri normally (but can fall off early as premature yus, which are harder to take care of). Now the question is do we have it so that over time they get gradually larger or just after a certain amount of time the just a larger body type. What I mean to say is, how many different size transitions should we do? At the very least we should do three (koyukkuri to adolescent to Adult size. It would probably be better however if we did five or more, so that there will be stages between the three main stages (ko, adolescent, and adult).

Interactions

Standard Raising interactions
 As for the options for interactions with the yukkuri I would recommend that we start off with options like pet, pick up (so that you can move the yukkuri around which it will like unless you drop it from above a certain height, can also be used to pick up poo poo or an accessory and move it around, if you drop poo poo onto a yukkuri you will get it dirty, the same will happen if you drop a yukkuri or accessory into poo poo or pee pee, if you drop a yukkuri on top of another Yukkuri then depending on how smart the one that you dropped yu on it may either get made at the yu that fell on it or at the player), clean/wash (so that you take care of the yukkuri, and also for if the yukkuri falls in poo poo, or clean any poo poo, pee pee, or some other mess made by the yukkuri), talk (you pick from a from a list of nice or mean things to say), Food/Water (place food or water), pull checks (depending on how far you strech them will effect wether or not the yukkuri enjoys it or is hurt by it), hit (this can be used for discipline or abuse), take accessory (this can be used so that the accessory can be cleaned, or it can be used for abuse. I recommend that we have it so that the player can either dangle it over the yukkuri's head or double click it to make the accessory disappear, if you made an accessory disappear then you should be able to drag it back on stage or double click the yukkuri you took it from to give it back).

Standard Abuse Interactions
 For the starting actions that are purely abusive we should have, flick (light hit can charge for more damage, can be used for discipline), smack (medium hit can charge for more damage, and may inflict light injury when fully charged), kick/punch (heavy hit, that can be charged for more damage, and can inflict injury such as tooth loss when fully charged), Stomp (very strong hit that will likely inflict injury even if not fully charged, but can inflict serious injury or kill when it is fully charged), Rip/Tare (for destroying accessories, it will tare it into pieces, Once it has been torn the player may either fix it (it will not look good and the yukkuri will be sad and made fun of, or thrown away. If it is thrown away it can't be brought back, however the player can buy replacement accessories which will be as good as new)

Standard Recovery/Medical Interactions
Naturally whether you are a lover or an abuser, your Yukkuri will get eventually get hurt or sick, so we will need medicine. The most obvious being orange juice or sugar water, which can be used for minor injuries or it could be used as a reward since they love it. It should be noted that too much can make them start melting, and if you give it too often for reason other then medicine then the yukkuri could become spoiled and eventually become a shithead. The other medicine will probably need to be unlocked.

Standard Training Interactions
This is for the basic training for yus such as training them to not go poo poo or pee pee anywhere other then the designated spot. I think that this should be done by first telling them to use there toilet, and then punishing or by scolding them when they don't do that, or by praising or rewarding them when they do. I think this would make more sense then a magic toilet train button. I mean for other training such as training for a badge test, we could have a button so that after you click the button and the desired yukkuri it will initiate the training, but for things like toilet training I don't think it would make much sense. We need to think of any thing else to train a yukkuri as well as how to perform the training. I can think of obedience and behavioral training but not of how we would do it in game.

Unlockable Interactions
For the other love/abuse/other interactions we should have it so that the player gets them by performing certain actions an unlocking them or by buying certain items. The player should have both an abuse and love stat which are to completely separate stats. The higher the love or abuse stat is the more options become available that way the yu lovers won't see the option to buy something like the yu-vicerator, or the same for the abusers, but the stats should be different because there are people who enjoy both yu love and abuse, or there are people who like to make the yus fall into a false sense of security and when the yus are at there happiest they abuse the hell out of them, messed up but you have to think of the people who will play this. For example if you buy a soft brush then you could brush your yukkuri's hair which could make it happier and improve its appearance, or it could make it spoiled and demand that the slave do it more often. A ball or some other toy could be purchased and the ability to play with the yukkuri using that toy can be opened, or you could just give it to the yukkuri and let it play with it by itself or with another, of course you would have the option to take it away as punishment, abuse, or when it is time to train, bath, or go to sleep, the abusers could also drop the toy from above a certain height and use it to hit the yukkuri, which, depending on the intelligence of the yukkuri, may cause it to think that the toy is attacking it, or it will figure out that the player did it and say "Why would you do THAT?" For the unlockable abuse interactions they will be unlocked the same way as the other interactions. The Player could buy tools and use them to build things such as a Yu house, or use them to repair damage from home invaders, we should probably have it so that the player's avatar's ability to build/repair things can be improved the more that they build/repair things, or the more lessons they take. We could have it so that the higher the building stat is the better the object they make is, in addition, the better the stat is the more that the player is able to make with less wasted material, and that the player will be able to sell what they make as a form of income. Or the player can use the tools to abuse the yukkuri. Other then that the player should be able to buy yu playset, training, or torture devices, so that they can use it to watch the yus use them. One such thing could be a yu treadmill, it could be used to give the yu exercise, increase its speed, or it could be suddenly set to the highest setting and send the yu flying back off the treadmill and hits something, or after that immediately turned off if it managed to stay on if it managed to stay on so that it goes flying forward and hits something. Other then that if the players building stat is high enough they could turn the treadmill into a yukkuri trap so that the yukkuri has to keep running unless they want to be sent into some kind of trap. For additional medical supplies, the player should be able to get ramune or ramune candy (sleeping agent for yus), flour (for mild injury), and wonton wrappers (for serious injuries).

Player Stats

Player Starting Stats
The player should have stats that can be improved upon which can unlock different objects, yukkuri, and actions. I already listed a few but I will try to flesh those out some more. I am writing this in the event that the whole stat idea might be accepted, I know very well that it is probably too difficult for the first build. The idea behind the stats is to make it so that players will feel like there is a reason to play the game longer or see what happens when they play the game in a different way. At the start of the game the player should have all their stats at zero, unless we want to have the player pick a character type like, abuser, lover, or neutral, this would effect whether they would start out with more points in the abuse or love stats, or whether they would be balanced. If we do this then we may want to have the player pick one ability that they wish to have a single small starting bonus in. Naturally the other stats would be at zero. Another thing we could to is give the player a certain amount of points and let them distribute the points where they want to put them. However since this the first build it may be wiser to just have everything be at zero to start with.

Love/Affection Stat
The love stat represents how much affection you have shown yukkuri, The higher it is the more positive actions will be unlocked. Plus a higher love stat will improve the positive effects of the love actions such as petting or playing with the yukkuri. A higher your love stat will increase the rate at which the yukkuri you raise will love and trust you, also it will be harder to make the yukkuri stop liking you if you have a higher love stat.

Abuse Stat
The Abuse stat represents how much you have messed with, abused, tortured, or killed yukkuri. Like the love stat, the higher the stat is the more options and actions become available. The higher the abuse stat is the more distress things like hitting or taking accessories will cause. A higher abuse rate will increase the rate that a yukkuri will become afraid of you as a result of abuse actions, plus it will allow you to abuse a yu more before it dies as a result of being too rough. When the player gets their abuse stat to a certain level, maybe they could get a mask or a hat that they could wear, since yukkuri normally recognize someone by their accessories, the player could treat a yukkuri with love, then when the yukkuri isn't looking don the mask/hat and start abusing it like in the "High Grade Pet Shop Reimu", that way the Abuse and Love stats would not interfere with one another.

Build/Repair Stat
I mentioned this stat before, but to reiterate, this stat effects how well the player can build/repair things.  The higher the stat, the more things you will be able to build/repair, in addition to it taking less time, material, and money to do it. In order to build or repair something you must have tools and materials. Once your build/repair stat is high enough you can get a job repairing it or you can sell things you build. The price of what you made is effected by your build/repair stat at the time you made it. The player can pay to have someone else build/repair something for them but that is much more expensive, and eventually the player can do a better job then the repair/building person.

Breeding/Raising/Training Stat
This stat is effected by the amount of normal, good, or nicehead yukkuri that you have raised, as well as the number of yukkuri you have raised to adulthood. This stat effects how easy it is for the player to raise a yukkuri, and it also effects the survivability of the yukkuri. The higher the stat the easier it is for a player to raise a nicehead, to improve a yu's behavior/attitude, or increase the effectiveness of training and passing badge tests. When this stat is high enough the player will be able to sell the yukkuri they raise without going to a shop, and will be able to sell them for more. This is different then the love stat, because the stat goes up for the longer the yukkuri has been alive as well as the amount of training you give it (gains more if training successful), not by how happy the yukkuri is. So even abusers will be able to raise this stat without having to change the way they want to play the game.

Care/Curing/Medical Stat
The care stat effects how good the player is at healing/curing yukkuri of injuries and ailments, as well as effect the chances of yukkuri surviving more serious injuries or illnesses when you are taking care of them. A higher care stat also allows the player to unlock different options and actions, and reduce the amount of what ever material you needed to perform the rescue action, and increase the actions success rate. A higher care stat allows players to work at a better paid position at a yukkuri vet, or at a higher position in the factory. In a later build we could also have it so that a high enough care stat will allow players to experiment on yukkuri, like making a spicy reimu or coffee alice, or possibly making hybrids through Frankenstein-ish methods. The player can have someone cure/heal/treat their yukkuri for them, but it is very expensive, and the player can eventually do it for less with a much higher rate of success.

Yukkuri Personalities

Naturally since this is a raising sim we need to give the yukkuri personalities that are more varied and distinct. Other then the different mannerisms of the different yukkuri types, I think that the yukkuri should have different personality stats that influence what they say. For example a nicehead/shithead stat would depict whether it was a nicehead or shithead, the lower the stat the more likelk the yukkuri was a shithead, while the higher the stat would mean it would more likely be a nicehead, while if it was in the middle it would be normal. A friendliness stat would effect how nice or rude the yukkuri is to others. The politeness stat would effect it's manners, as well as whether it would ask nicely or demand for something. Affection would be how much it liked you. Bravery/Fear would effect how much it fears the player. Stubbornness would effect how difficult it is to get it do do something it doesn't want. Obedience would effect how well it listened to the player. What the yukkuri would say would be effected by these stats. These stats can be changed, but the older the yukkuri is the harder it would be to change them.

Environments and the Events that can happen in them

Park
A place to either go alone or take your Yukkuri out for a walk, and meet other people and yukkuri. The park is usually safe, just make sure that if your yukkuri doesn't have a badge that you stay with it or keep it on a leash or else other people or yukkuri may think it is a wild or trash yukkuri and kill it. Pets are occasionally raped by wild/trash/abandoned yukkuri or just by yukkuri that are not well behaved. The player may run into wild koyukkuri or a family of wild yukkuri and they may ask/demand for sweet sweets or that the player takes them home. Wild Marisa's may try and show mister humans her unbeatable fighting moves if they don't give sweet sweets. Pet yukkuri occassionally fall for wild/trash/abandoned yukkuri and have children with them, sometime they expect their owners to take in this family. A mass extermination may also happen if there are too many wild/trash/abandoned yukkuri.

Mall
The player can explore here with or without their yukkuri. The mall is where the player can relax, take a walk, or buy what they need like food and supplies. Encounters with a wild/trash/abandoned yukkuri or yukkuri family may occur. Singing/performing wild/trash/abandoned yukkuri may appear. A wild/trash/abandoned raper yukkuri may appear.

Home
This is were the player lives and raises their yukkuri. Home invasions may occur, and your yukkuri may be killed or raped. Wild/trash/abandoned yukkuri may eat all your plants and mess up your yard. Yukkuri can be born here. Your yukkuri may fall for a wild/trash/abandoned yukkuri, and ask/demand that you accept its new family. The player can abandon or kick out yukkuri. This is were the player can build/repair things. This is also where the player can willingly breed yukkuri. This is the primary place that the player will interact with their yukkuri.

Your Neighborhood
This is the area around the player's house. The player can explore it with or without a yukkuri. Encounters with wild/trash/abandoned yukkuri may occur. Yukkuri may get raped or killed by wild/trash/abandoned yukkuri. Yukkuri may get run over by vehicles. Pet yukkuri may fall for or have children with wild/trash/abandoned yukkuri and expect their owners to except their new families.

Forrest/Mountains
This is where the majority of the wild yukkuri live. It is not recommended that the player bring their pet yukkuri here. Encounters with one or more wild/trash/abandoned yukkuri. May run into a herd of wild yukkuri. May find a dosu. Yukkuri may get raped or killed by other yukkuri. My come across a yukkuri nest (family may or may not be present). May come across an unattended curious wild/stray koyukkuri. Extermination may occur if too many wild/trash/abandoned yukkuri are present or misbehaving.

Downtown/Urban Area
This is where a lot of the businesses are located. The player can find a job here. Encounters with wild/trash/abandoned yukkuri may occur. Yukkuri may be run over by vehicles. Performing yukkuri may appear. Yukkuri without badges may be killed becuase people believe they are wild/trash/abandoned yukkuri. Yukkuri my be raped/killed by wild/trash/abandoned yukkuri. Extermination may occur if too many wild/trash/abandoned yukkuri are present and/or misbehaving.

Yukkuri Pet Shop, and the Yukkuri Shelter
This is where the player can buy or possibly sell yukkuri. The player can also get wild/trash/abandoned yukkuri from one of the other areas for free, but the yukkuri at the pet shops tend to be better behaved, healthier, smarter, and better trained on average, so the player may end up paying for more with all the training and medical attention that the wild/trash/abandoned yukkuri they picked up would cost. The Yukkuri Shelter is where the player can buy cheaper yukkuri that have been rescued from abusers or from poor living conditions. The yukkuri you can buy from the shelter are much cheaper then the ones that you can buy at the pet shop, but they tend to be scared, slow to trust, hard to train, and have weak minds and/or constitutions. The yukkuri from the shelter tend to be healthier and better behaved then the wild/trash/abandoned yukkuri, but they still require more training, health care, and suffer from more behavioral problems then the yukkuri from the pet shop.

Yukkuri Fan Clubs
There are to clubs, the first is a yukkuri lovers club, where the player can pay to interact with friendly, well behaved, happy, and healthy  nicehead yukkuri and koyukkuri, and do things like play with them and dress them in pet clothes that are already at the club. If the player has a high enough care and  raising stats then the player can sell the niceheads they raise to the lovers club for a lot more then they would get anywhere else. At the yukkuri lovers club, harassing, hurting, killing, traumatizing, or mistreating any of the yukkuri is met with a very large fine. The yukkuri abuser's club is where the player may pay to abuse, harass, torment, and/or kill yukkuri and koyukkuri, the majority of which are shithead or those with serious behavioral and personality issues. This is the only place that player can sell shithead yukkuri. The yukkuri abuser's club will buy yukkuri with any type of personallity but they pay more for nicehead yukkuri and yukkuri with bad attitudes and behavior, they especially pay well for shitheads, They are however interested in how much abuse the yukkuri they buy can take so they won't buy yukkuri with weak constitutions, and they will pay more for yukkuri with high constitutions. They will also buy pregnant yukkuri.

The Factory (Do we need it or should we have it in this build)
A place were yukkuri experiments, research, merchandise, and breeding all happen (ok I know that sounded lame). A place were the player can sell almost any yukkuri they have regardless of type or temperament for cheap even if you aren't a great breeder or caretaker. However they won't change their prices even when you do become a great breeder and caretaker. They are however very interested in rare types, hybrids, and mutant yukkuri.

I already know that some of these ideas are too ambitious for the first build, but we can take what we like and use it or we could use none of this at all, but I mainly did this as a starting point.

[Mielle]

Let's back up a bit. I think you're confusing "build" with "release" or "finished game" lonefool. A build is simply a version of a program, while a release is something to be shared. The first build will probably be something like "Marisa's on the screen, yeah!" while the first release will be what we've discussed already. There's already a complete game with all that information. All that remains is actually making it. (Much harder than it sounds)

Stats are easy to make and keep track of. Have you ever pulled out an RPG from the early 1980s with multiple characters and saw that they had 50 stats each? Yeah... It's a lot easier to keep track of some stats than to try writing a cpu-sucking genetic algorithm. The player stats here look reasonsable enough; I find it interesting that love and abuse are two different stats, but it makes sense. Yukkuri are going to need their own stats beyond personalities as well as their programmed behavior.

Yukkuri will probably be easiest to add two at a time, at first. Marisa/Reimu are the basic types, Alice/Remilia are predators, Youmu/Sakuya are fighters, Nitori/Iku are water types... this is leaving out the more common types like Patchouli so I'll leave it at that.

The factory would be a good baseline for cheap yukkuri and would probably be the only way to get rid of the freshly caught ones. Since it's the factory, if you want to buy yukkuri from them it'll be 10 at a time... unless they're rare, of course.

I'd love to get started on actually making the game. All I need right off is a sprite for each yukkuri and another for the stalk. The more sprites, the better.

[lonefool]

Yeah I kind of used it in the wrong way...

What I am worried about with the stats is that it may be hard to manage all of them if we put too many in. Plus we don't want to put too many or too few in the game either. Plus we do have to figure out the non-personality related stats for the yukkuri. The stats I can think of are constitution (which would effect the yukkuri's endurance such as how much damage it would take from different sources), Health (would represent what condition the yukkuri is in, 100 being at full health, and 0 being dead), Mental condition (would represent how strong its mind is, 0 would mean that it is essentially a mindless shell, while 100 would bestrong willed, though I guess that would effect personality as well), Strength (how strong it is, the higher strength is the more likely it will be able to repel, and survive against home invaders or rapers, if it is high enough they may be able to kill the rapers/invaders), Happiness (how happy the yukkuri is on average), Easiness (how much it can take it easy, I think this one needs to be fleshed out more), and we should probably try to think of a few more then decide which we are going to use.

Yes, so for this build and the first release we should probably stick to just using Marisa/Reimu types. However we should probably place something in the code so that it will be easier to add the yukkuri and other updates. After that we should probably vote to see what yukkuri or features will go in next. Also we need to discuss what the limit for the number of yukkuri that the player can own is, and if it can or should be upgraded as the game progresses.

Yes but since rare types won't be in this game would adding it right now be a good idea? I can already foresee people trying to take advantage of the fact that the factory would buy even wild/stray/trash yukkuri. They would simply just pick up wild or stray yukkuri whenever they got the chance, and immediately go to the factory, so we need to come up with some sort of safeguard or balance, because once people find a short cut they usually don't like to do things the normal way, but we have to make sure that it doesn't it doesn't effect the people who aren't trying that.

I really would like to start as well but, I think that there are still things we need to flesh out and agree upon. We can always add more later but I feel as though the core of the game still hasn't been defined enough.

[lonefool]

Plus, our artist still hasn't contacted us...

[Mielle]

Not having an artist is troubling. I suggest you go find one or two more artists. It's kind of hard to have a Yukkuri game without, well, Yukkuri.

It's more important for the game to track all of the stats than the player. Not all of the stats need to be visible, but they all do need to be relevant. Health could be a combination of toughness, constitution, age, and damage. Personality would be friendliness, politeness, mental state, bravery, % of good/bad paste, any genetic factors... or any number of other things. On that note, easyness as a stat is going to be even more complex. I'd save these two for later.

Good code is built in layers. Imagine a cake made out of code, with the lowest level being as basic as you can get (bready) and the highest level as specific as you need (frosting with writing or roses or another cake). For Yukkuri alone there should be base > general type > specific type > world growth.

Base: All Yukkuri need to eat, sleep, poo poo, rub rub, and give birth. They need to grow and react to the world around them, and a few abstractions can be made about that. Most of the stats will go here.
Generic Type: Most Yukkuri will be the Normal type, but we'll see Flyers and Water types too.
Specific Type: This is where we define Marisa as "Marisa". We give her a hat, blond hair, anything she gained from the original Marisa, and any genetic memories she gained from her parents.
World Growth: Anything Marisa experiences will be kept here. Scars from Mister pointy pointy, falling in love with Reimu, or having easy little ones from the uneasy raper Alice.

The nice thing about keeping things broken up like this is if we need to add something complex later, like mutations, another layer can be added. Depending on how things turn out, mutations might end up as an extension of the base, another layer after specific type, or elsewhere. This is a lot easier to manage than trying to bake everything into a single Yukkuri type, like Marisa, then trying to do it again for Reimu, Remilia, Patchouli, Chen, Alice, Ran, Yukari, Youmu... it's also easier to debug and change things later.

The factory shouldn't be the best way to get money. Heck, it shouldn't even be an option for making money beyond the early game. I'd imagine that the Reimu you spent a couple hours raising and training would sell for $100, while the Factory would buy both the trained one and the random stray you found on the street for 5¢. Regardless, the environment in the first build will likely be "House" or "Undefined Yukkuri Living Space".

We're going to need another thread about development soon.

[lonefool]

If we could use something as a place holder for the images then that may be helpful. At least until the artist, or artists, that Mariodante said that he got for us get in contact with the rest of the group., or until we find new artists willing to join. But I think we just need more members in general... But EndEarth has posted himself as  an additional programer which should help reduce the workload that you have to do. He said that he could also be a support artist, but he thinks that doing both programing and art would be too much, and I am pretty sure he would prefer to help with the programing rather then art.

I do understand what you are saying about coding and programing, but I don't think that I would be much help with that since coding and programing are my two weakest areas. I was listing some suggestions and wanted to see if you and the other group members like them. Also we should probably specify which program we will be usng to make the game with, EndEarth asked if we were using flash since it is going to be a 2D game.

I like how you have separated this into several categories it should make things so much easier in the long run. But I am not sure about the scar mechanics, I mean they sound good and detailed but it can be sometimes hard to pull off, Assuming what you are talking about is that you will be able to see scars from previous injuries on the yukkuri, and I am not just mixing things up.  Of course if we do something like a scaring mechanic not all players will want to have a yukkuri that is covered in scars, and since they may receive some even if their players aren't abusers, because of events like home invasions, we will need to think of a possible method of removing scars.

I like your idea of breaking things up into different categories a lot.

I think you are spot on with what the factory should be like.

By starting a new thread do you mean on this google group or do you mean on OYP?

[Mariodante]

Hey guys, sorry I took so long.  I'm back at my University and I'm taking 6 courses so my free time's been murdered haha.  I supposed I won't be the biggest help in the world these days since I'm so busy but I'm gonna start a new thread specifically for the specifics of the game and I'm going to post up everything I have and you all can work from there, looking for a common consensus. 

I supposed I should point out that our game should really stress raising Yukkuri better than all of these other games out there.  They're all so simplistic; you get a handful of completely mundane abilities, the Yukkuri respond with almost no dialogue variation, and the game has no real point.  Our game definitely should have abilities with great variety, lots of dialogue to keep everyone interested in getting a rise out of the Yukkuri, as well as we want a serious point to the game; things can be unlocked and etc.  I sent a link of this page to my two artists, so hopefully one of them is game to jump in. 

[lonefool]

That is understandable, but regrettable since we will obviously not be able to talk as much as we would like to because of that. Oh and thank you for sending them the link we could seriously use them now. I have a lot of time since I graduated and I am applying and waiting for responses from several possible employers.

Also plenty of games emphasize abuse, but I haven't seen a single one that focuses on the actual taking good care of them. And I do agree that they don't show enough differences in behavior it is like one second they are happily jumping and poo pooing everywhere and the next second they are saying, "wanted to take it more easy" because they died of starvation! I saw in one game you could either give them regular food or sweets to eat, but it didn't make any difference which you gave then they didn't act any differently, or respond to getting sweets. I also don't like it how you can kill another yukkuri in front a different one and they won't care, even if they were parent and child, that seems messed up, there should be some sort of reaction or at the very least the other yukkuri should be worried about what you will do to it.

[Mielle]

We haven't had any good Yukkuri raising games yet, that's for sure. The Yukkurarium game and YukkuriSim were a taste, but the Yukkurarium game was horribly slow and felt like an abyuse simulator and YukkuriSim seems to produce scum like it's normal. I want to make a Yukkuri raising game that's good enough that I won't have to look for other games of the same kind.

The placeholders I ended up drawing were Sakuya, Marisa, and Patchouli. Unless someone wants to provide others (Reimu?) that's what the first build will have. I've been burying myself in research and life has kept me busy the past few days, so I haven't gotten much done. I spent a lot of time looking at languages, platforms, and tools, and I've been mucking around with Unity the past few days. Sorry EndEarth; Flash is a cpu sucking platform meant for web content, not complex games. Raw HTML5 or C++ would be a better alternative.

The game so far has one Yukkuri with some basic movement, one sprite, and it's all in 2D. I'm currently working on pathfinding, then speech, and once I get a couple basic interactions done I can post the first decent build. It does need music, sound effects, graphics, and I would love to talk to someone who likes making items or GUIs. EndEarth I need to talk to as well - my email address is Mielle...@gmail.com

The game needs a name. Any suggestions?

[EndEarth]

You can Contract me auto..@hotmail.com or facebook, Napat Somvadee. I have zero knowlenge of HTML 5 RAW and interesting in research it. Where is a best resource please suggest for me. C++ is good. I can also change my class to artist if you really want one but I prefer not. http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t57/EndEarth2/CHARACTOR.jpg 

[lonefool]

Yeah I wanted to make this game because I was tired of those other games that didn't really let you do what you wanted to with the yukkuri. In some of them you could get a whole bunch of them together, but they didn't really do anything so it may as well have been a screen saver.  Lets all make sure that we do our best to make this game satisfy what we want for a yukkuri game.

I would offer to draw some stuff,  but I don't have a scanner or a good art program on my computer, so I have to first draw it on paper, then take it's picture, and then post it online. If you want to see what I have done, I have my own tag on OYP "lonefool". I am relatively free, so if you want me to try drawing some things I wouldn't mind, just remember that it would not look too great, but I think that it should suffice as a placeholder, just telll me what you want, and where I should post them.

I can't wait to see it Mielle, I may post on the forums at OYP that you are actually getting started on it, if I do say that though, I would not give a specific date or time as to when you would have a working version ready to test/use since I don't know how long it will take you to finish, and I know that things can take longer then we think they will especially when and if glitches appear. I will wait until you say I should mention this on  OYP though. I want to mention this because I thought if we said that we are getting started on this but we still don't have a designated artist then we may have a few people volunteer to help us.

I have been trying to think of a name but I have had no luck so far. I think that we should all try to agree upon a name, that portrays this as a game for both yukkuri love and abuse.

I have no knowledge of how to use either of those computer languages. I don't have a facebook account but I think that the member who do should try and friend each other so that we can try and more easily stay in touch.

I would like to know if there is some way I can help, I am useless at programing, but I still want to do something, I don't want to be dead weight.

[Mielle]

Unity's scripts runs on C#, Javascript, and Boo. I wouldn't worry too much about programming though; if you do want to mess with the source later Unity has a big focus on content/assets, not scripts. Do also keep in mind that while I've done other projects, all the concepts and tools and languages are new to me so it's going to be slow right off. EndEarth is off doing research on Unity and the languages right now. I wouild guess 3-4 days for the first build, but don't hold me to that. Plus it will look ugly, play like crud, and not do much. :D

You can post if you like. It would be nice to get a few more people in on this project. Drumming up support is a job in and of itself, and organizing information into something readable is invaluable for keeping a project together. I'd say you're anything but dead weight lonefool.

One thing I've been wondering: Should we open source the game or keep it to ourselves?

[lonefool]

So we are using Unity to make the game? We can always improve it later, so long as we get it to do what we want successfully it is fine, after all this is only the first build. Even if you aren't happy with the way it is you still made it so be proud of it. For all that we said that we were going to put into the first build I am surprised that you say that you will be able to finish it in a few days, happily of course. Especially since you said you are still learning how to use it, normally takes me a lot longer to learn a program before I can even start using it. I am looking forward to seeing the build, but don't push yourself too hard trying to get it done quickly, it is fine to take your time.

I think it would draw more people if we said that we are actually making progress, since I haven't mentioned anything on OYP for a while they may have thought that we stop or put the game on hold. What roles should I be asking for? Thanks for saying that, still I will try to think of any ways that I can help, or anything I can do for the team.

I am not sure, we should probably vote to see what we should do. I personally think we should keep it to ourselves for a while, make a few updates and make some improvements, and then we could make it open source. But seeing as you and EndEarth are the programers, I feel as though the two of you should have more influence as to whether or not we make it open source or not.

[Mielle]

Looking through the member list, we have:
Producer: lonefool
Writers: Mariodante, YukkurisMustDie
Programmers: Mielle, EndEarth
Artists:
Sound:
Testers:

I don't expect sound or testing to be a big problem, if at all, but we're definitely going to need artists. With this many people I'd suggest a couple.

Yes, Unity. Power and cross-platform releases, asset-driven development... it should be fun once we figure out how it works. On that note, my vote is on open source. I'm honestly not comfortable with sharing it until the first decent build, but the last project I worked on was more successful because others could look at how it worked.

[lonefool]

I haven't heard anything from YukkurisMustDie, is he actually helping us? I haven't seen him post anything since he asked to be a writer. I would love to have him if he is still willing to help us, and if he has been helping you guys then I want to apologize for not realizing sooner. I am flattered that you consider me a producer.

  So I will say that we are looking for testers, people to handle sound, and artists. I will try and put an emphasis on artists though.

Same here I would rather that people see it after we first make it decent, but there is definitely a benefit to having other people, especially people who are more familiar with Unity, giving us some tips/help/advice. It is matter of  being able to swallow your personal pride, and getting some potentially great help, or being stubborn and potentially spending a lot more time stuck on problems what a program that we are not all that familiar with. When you put it that way I guess I will also vote for open source, since it will hopefully reduce the amount of time spent trying to solve problems with the game.

[Bystander]

Open source sounds good if nothing else it makes it easier for folks to make mods or content for it later down the road, not to mention translations. As such will we be looking at an SVN then? How should distribution of builds be handled?

[poweryoga]

Here's some thoughts:

Open source is good, some sort of version control is better.  Opening up a code project allows people to check out the code, and by that I mean $ svn checkout URL DESTINATION, not "oh this looks cool".  Seems like this is getting to be a relatively big project with some associated complexities, so setting up either a google code or sourceforge project to keep track of this is recommended so that the master copy doesn't get screwed up, and you can revert to previous versions if something turns out to be not really applicable.

Not to mention if people decide to quit, someone else can pick up the game, which is something that hasn't been happening before.

For project management pieces: You to clearly define clear milestones, and like Mielle said before, a clear definition of what to include in certain builds.  This does not include all the end-all features either.  KISS: Keep it Simple, Stupid!

Based on my previous experience, you NEED to start simple and have a good code base before building complexities.  It's very easy to get away with the feature creeping and I'm seeing that already, so I just want to warn you guys.  If you can't get the very basic stuff down, there's no point in talking about complex stuff like AI.


Some random pieces of information: 

A build is akin to a patch:  Think of it this way:

Build 1
- Game window created
- Can exit game
- Added yukkuri base function for future method overloading/polymorphism.

Build 2
- Added background
- Added dialogue
- Added test call for dialogues

Build 3
- Added test yukkuri

etc etc.  It's best to create either a project plan or at the very minimal: a checklist of stuff you can work on.  (If you don't want to worry about critical paths and dependencies or whatnot).

[Mielle]

Definitely poweryoga. I made it a point to gather every piece of information and break it into manageable pieces. It was more important to know most of where the game should be at the end. I'll probably be creating some kind of project outline soon. EndEarth and I are still discussing what kind of version control system we should use; this project is going to grow very large, like you said, and we're going to need some way to keep track of things in case everything breaks at once.

 I'm not really fond of sharing early boring things, but I suppose it's more interesting to see what's been going on instead of keeping everyone in the dark... here's build 0.0.2: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/42769935/YuWorld-0-0-2.zip Build 1 was "Woo, yukkuri on the screen!", while build 2 is pathfinding, yukkuri base, etc. This is not the version I intended to release at first (0.1), but meh. The "first" build took all of 10 minutes to make and this one's a couple days old.

A couple notes: The game itself is 614kb in size. The standalone player for Unity takes up a massive 22mb on its own, and I'm not sure how to embed it in a web page. The smaller yukkuri will move with both the arrow keys and click/drag, while the larger one will follow. I was looking for a way to get an object from point A to point B, and that's what came out.

[poweryoga]

I was wondering more about the source code than the actual compiled program.  It doesn't look like there's much in terms of readable code in there, mostly config files.

PS: you don't have an upper bound or a lower bound on the movable yukkuri.  You can drive the yukkuri straight out of the screen. 

[Mielle]

https://sourceforge.net/p/yukkuriraising/

Behold my nefarious use of tutorial scripts and free tools in all its glory. Somehow the project is even larger than the standalone game, and the tutorial scripts were even worse than what you see there, plus I have close to no experience with Unity or any of its scripting languages and that's where it's at. I'm kind of making it up as I go along.

What I'm currently looking at for a timeline/milestone/checklist is this:

[x] Sprite on screen
[x] Basic pathfinding
[ ] Beginning AI
- [ ] Speech
- [ ] Movement
[ ] Multiple Yukkuri
[ ] In-world items
- [ ] Bathroom
- [ ] Food
- [ ] Treasure
[ ] Dynamic interactions
- [ ] Breeding
- [ ] Friendship

I think we're a little past the first build now. Do we need a new topic, or is this one fine?

[poweryoga]

Having problems getting the source code for some reason.  Git Clone is throwing errors for the command:

git clone git://git.code.sf.net/p/yukkuriraising/code yukkuriraising-code

git.exe clone   --progress -v  "git://git.code.sf.net/p/yukkuriraising/code yukkuriraising-code" "C:\Source Code\Yukkuri Sim"

Cloning into 'C:\Source Code\Yukkuri Sim'...
fatal: The remote end hung up unexpectedly


Any thoughts?

[Mielle]

The bit of code Sourceforge showed me for cloning the repository was:
git clone ssh://<name>@git.code.sf.net/p/yukkuriraising/code yukkuriraising-code

Perhaps you need ssh instead of a direct copy?

[poweryoga]

Seems like the bit I got from sourceforge is for read-only access: This is what I get

git clone git://git.code.sf.net/p/yukkuriraising/code yukkuriraising-code

Tried what you gave me but I'm getting a PW prompt, and my account password isn't working.  Is the project public?

[Mielle]

I thought it was public... if it's not, it is now. I changed all of the settings on everything to public or read/write. Try it again?

[poweryoga]

Got it.  Had to use a different client, think it was just tortisegit that was acting up.   I'll take a look at this tomorrow when I get home from work. :)

[Mielle]

Good good. I'm having troubles getting a sprite to wander around, and I think I've been looking at the whole thing wrong. Coming from an almost pure programming project in Java is rubbing me in the wrong way perhaps. On a different note, I don't think EndEarth is going to be any help on the programming end. The little we've talked they were going on about art, didn't seem interested in learning or making code, and were adamant about using zipped copies on local hard drives as backups.

[lonefool]

...This is unfortunate, I hope that we can resolve this issue with EndEarth, I wish I had some skill with programing so that I could help reduce your workload...

 In other news Sugra said that they would like to join, and that they have some experience with AI work. I also plan to ask Danogoat if they would like to do the art for our game, any objections?

[poweryoga]

I can do any rough sketches you need for the art.  Until the base game is done I don't think there's a need to get a dedicated artist on board. 

[lonefool]

Alright I'll wait before I ask danogoat.

[poweryoga]

Ran into a little snag: thought I had visual studio installed on my computer but... apparently not.  Need to find my copy lying around somewhere so I won't get to the code review till sunday. :(

[Mariodante]

Hey guys.  Sorry it's been so long.  How's everything been coming along?  Need my help or input on anything?  Also, I asked my hopeful artist to do some sketches for me sometime ago, but I'm afraid I haven't heard from her much recently.  I'll bug her tomorrow about how things are coming; I gave her the overview about our operations.  

[Mielle]

Things are going slow, but progressing. It's hard to find time between everything else and the game's in such an early (read: boring) state that it's hard for anyone not building it to do anything. I'd be interested on your thoughts about the game in general, the voices, the movement, things like that.

Technically, the Yukkuri can be made into any other Yukkuri easy enough. There's a decent base for talking, pathfinding, and they're capable of performing specific tasks. The current tasks are sit, wander, sleep, and eat, and I'm working on the toilet now. They do not learn or grow, and can only do basic things, but they do get hungrier and sleepier over time. Also, I keep getting distracted by drawing more Yukkuri pictures; there's a Reimu sitting on my hard drive that I didn't even bother with the bad art. An artist would be most helpful... it would keep me focused at least.

[Mariodante]

I hear you, mielle.  Yeah, the base seems good, as long as we have room to expand I think that's great.  No doubt we'd need a HUD and objects and such.  Is there room for a physics engine?  And my artist is still taking it easy.

[Mielle]

If there wasn't room for a physics engine then the game would already be a failure. The base is supposed to be something to build on... that said, Unity already has a physics engine, but since it's a 3D program in general it may need a bit of futzing to work properly. A HUD wouldn't go awry. I'll be doing more mockups as the game progresses or as needed.

0.1.8 is what I want to call the real first build. It's everything a Yukkuri must do regardless of context or circumstance. It's not the best baseline, but we do have to start somewhere. Next up: learning and relationships. I have less of an idea for how to do this than tasks, so it could be a little while before I have the framework ready.

[Mariodante]

Hey, that's great to hear :D.  I suppose I was unsure of how much potential we had since the game looked pretty simplistic, but if you say there's room I'll believe it.  

[Mielle]

It's simple and boring because none of the interesting stuff has been added yet. Trying to make the Yukkuri talk to each other, for example, is a whole level of complexity as advanced as everything already in the game. The save system is quite a bit less complex, but there wasn't much to save yet.

Is it possible to close a thread? Talking about future development in a "first build" thread is kind of odd...