In case you missed it..

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Paul Griswold

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Sep 10, 2012, 10:08:12 AM9/10/12
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This is the kind of stuff that makes me really dislike Autodesk:  http://yfrog.com/h0t6exxtj

I'm glad to know Softimage is a particle system that has single-step interoperability with the apps in the "Areas of Excellence" (Max and Maya).



-Paul

Eric Thivierge

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Sep 10, 2012, 10:28:46 AM9/10/12
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wait, so you mean that AD marketing for Softimage sucks? First I heard about it.

PS - Maybe send this to the new PM if you intend to direct the displeasure to some potentially productive channel?

--------------------------------------------
Eric Thivierge
http://www.ethivierge.com

Ben Davis

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Sep 10, 2012, 10:30:24 AM9/10/12
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Well, on the bright side Softimage still has 3% in excellence range, Motionbuilder isn't even fully functional :)

Ben


--
Benjamin Clifford Davis

3D artist - Senior Modeler
Senior 3D Generalist

www.moondog-animation.com
 

office:   +33 9 50 04 76 15
mobile: +33 6 88 48 54 50

6 bis avenue des Iles
74000 Annecy
FRANCE

Eugen Sares

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Sep 10, 2012, 10:31:29 AM9/10/12
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Good one, very funny!
What did they pay for Softimage when they bought it from Avid? 25 mio., right?
Pretty expensive for a particle system.

Paul Griswold

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Sep 10, 2012, 10:31:46 AM9/10/12
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I posted that link to his "Introducing the new PM" page on the AD website.

-Paul

Graham Bell

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Sep 10, 2012, 10:36:05 AM9/10/12
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Perhaps worth pointing out that this is a Entertainment Creation 'Suites' magazine and of the course the two main flavours (Ultimate aside) for the Suites are Maya and Max. And therefore the three packages shown in the image are all including in the Maya/Max Suites, hence the reason for trying to show their value to those respective users.
winmail.dat

Eric Thivierge

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Sep 10, 2012, 10:42:35 AM9/10/12
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Even I don't buy that Graham. Only particles? Why not Nodal based systems for particles, topology, and animation? Sounds better to me than just particles. It can go even further than that but lets just stick with the selling point of ICE.

There use that and cut me a hefty check for helping out the marketing dept. :D

--------------------------------------------
Eric Thivierge
http://www.ethivierge.com


Paul Griswold

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Sep 10, 2012, 10:48:10 AM9/10/12
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Yeah I realize that.  It's just disappointing that it's the headline on the Media & Entertainment page.

I understand they want to sell the creation suites rather than individual packages, trying to emulate the Adobe model.  But the more I watch AD the more I think they're emulating DAZ, not Adobe.

Paul  

Graham Bell

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Sep 10, 2012, 10:59:05 AM9/10/12
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I never said I agreed with the wording. :)
I was merely pointing out what I think the rationale was behind it as it's really focused on stuff like interop workflows. It is somewhat high level though, and personally I'm not a fan of these 'magazines'


From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Eric Thivierge
Sent: 10 September 2012 15:43
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: In case you missed it..

Even I don't buy that Graham. Only particles? Why not Nodal based systems for particles, topology, and animation? Sounds better to me than just particles. It can go even further than that but lets just stick with the selling point of ICE.

There use that and cut me a hefty check for helping out the marketing dept. :D

--------------------------------------------
Eric Thivierge
http://www.ethivierge.com

On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 12:36 AM, Graham Bell <Graha...@autodesk.com<mailto:Graha...@autodesk.com>> wrote:
Perhaps worth pointing out that this is a Entertainment Creation 'Suites' magazine and of the course the two main flavours (Ultimate aside) for the Suites are Maya and Max. And therefore the three packages shown in the image are all including in the Maya/Max Suites, hence the reason for trying to show their value to those respective users.



winmail.dat

Graham Bell

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Sep 10, 2012, 11:03:59 AM9/10/12
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Actually I don't think it's a case of trying to sell Suites instead of the individual packages, but yeah there is a lot of focus on them and it's another way to purchase the products, and boost more awareness of packages like Softimage. That's of course if they apply to you. I take the stance I always have with Suites, they're not for everyone, but if they are, it is actually a better way to purchase.


From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Paul Griswold
Sent: 10 September 2012 15:48
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: In case you missed it..

Yeah I realize that. It's just disappointing that it's the headline on the Media & Entertainment page.

I understand they want to sell the creation suites rather than individual packages, trying to emulate the Adobe model. But the more I watch AD the more I think they're emulating DAZ, not Adobe.

Paul


On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 10:36 AM, Graham Bell <Graha...@autodesk.com<mailto:Graha...@autodesk.com>> wrote:
Perhaps worth pointing out that this is a Entertainment Creation 'Suites' magazine and of the course the two main flavours (Ultimate aside) for the Suites are Maya and Max. And therefore the three packages shown in the image are all including in the Maya/Max Suites, hence the reason for trying to show their value to those respective users.



winmail.dat

Luc-Eric Rousseau

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Sep 10, 2012, 11:05:31 AM9/10/12
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Making Charts: not in their Area of Excellence.

Paul Griswold

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Sep 10, 2012, 11:09:14 AM9/10/12
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Hahahaha!

Seriously.... I imagine the person responsible for that chart uses terms like "think outside the box", "synergy" and "paradigm shift" frequently.

Adam Seeley

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Sep 10, 2012, 11:15:16 AM9/10/12
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In case they need some help...

http://bullshitgenerator.blogspot.co.uk/2010/01/mba-jargon-exhaustive-list.html

But they seem to be doing fine.

Adam.





From: Paul Griswold <pgri...@fusiondigitalproductions.com>
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Sent: Monday, 10 September 2012, 16:09

Subject: Re: In case you missed it..

Matt Morris

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Sep 10, 2012, 12:57:14 PM9/10/12
to Adam Seeley, soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
That's a pretty ridiculous diagram. And not a little bit depressing that autodesk are going out of their way to encourage misconceptions about Softimage's capabilities.


Stefan Andersson

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Sep 10, 2012, 3:07:36 PM9/10/12
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Just to throw some more gasoline onto the fire.

So the value to a 3dsmax/Maya user would be to use Softimage as a particle plugin. Everything else their respective Software is good at.

I know you don't agree with them Graham, and it's not you who "wrote/made" this :) It's been said over and over again on this list, it doesn't seem that Autodesk cares about Softimage.

And it's for that reason alone that I don't recommend anyone (anymore) to buy or learn Softimage. Autodesk representatives on this list is trying to assure us, but apparently those people have absolutely NO contact with the Marketing/PR people. It's not that we have been asking for much, but the way they market Softimage and the way new users and studios look at Softimage... well... you get my point.

I don't want Softimage to be a good companion to Maya&3dsmax, I want Softimage to kick their ass and make all users leave their software and use Softimage instead!! But that is not in Autodesk view a good thing. And for this reason I think Autodesk is really bad for Softimage. 

Why is attitude and "kick butt" mentality a bad thing? it's what keeps a lot of us going and improving our-self. It's what makes us trying to reach for those extra 10% in a production.

Am I pissed at Autodesk? you bet you sweet ass I am. I spent years behind Softimage and got companies to buy the software that were Maya based, and really really tried to get it to work... 
With ICE I had big hopes. But... Autodesk had little incentive to kick Maya/3dsmax out the window. They made Softimage into a particle plugin.

So what happens now?

I know it's pointless rant, and it just adds fuel to the fire. But it's difficult to talk about something positive when it comes to Softimage. It's like having a Formula One car, but you live in the country side and no one understands why you have it.

Sorry for the rant everyone.

best regards
Stefan 
--
stefan andersson - digital janitor - http://sanders3d.wordpress.com

Craig Tozzi

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Sep 10, 2012, 3:29:56 PM9/10/12
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AD's marketing of Softimage feels _exactly_ the same as Avid's approach to Softimage DS after Avid acquired it.

I went through that nonsense once. I've no interest in repeating it.

Leoung O'Young

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Sep 10, 2012, 3:34:41 PM9/10/12
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Stefan, I totally agreed with you rant....hopefully we are wrong
We are sitting on the fence about upgrading our licenses, at this point we will have to take a hard long look.

We have been with Softimage/XSI since the early '90..

Leoung

Stefan Kubicek

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Sep 10, 2012, 3:43:21 PM9/10/12
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That diagram is so incredibly misleading that it's almost cool again.
It must have been made by more than one person, a single individual alone would hardly
be capable of cramming so much bs into so little space.
--
-------------------------------------------
Stefan Kubicek Co-founder
-------------------------------------------
keyvis digital imagery
Wehrgasse 9 - Grï¿œner Hof
1050 Vienna Austria
Phone: +43/699/12614231
--- www.keyvis.at ste...@keyvis.at ---
-- This email and its attachments are
--confidential and for the recipient only--

Graham Bell

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Sep 10, 2012, 3:55:18 PM9/10/12
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"I don't want Softimage to be a good companion to Maya&3dsmax, I want Softimage to kick their ass and make all users leave their software and use Softimage instead!!"

This is a perfectly valid point, however playing a neutral card for a moment and to just throw something out there....how do we do that?
There are plenty of Maya/Max based studios out there, skilled up, decent pipeline with some tech & tools, and producing very good and capable work for years, how would you get them to then rip all that up and go with Softimage?
I'm not sure it's that easy, expanding the capability of a pipeline by adding another solution/software is one thing, but a complete replacement/retool of your core 3D app? That's a whole bigger thing altogether.


G


From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Leoung O'Young
Sent: 10 September 2012 20:35
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: In case you missed it..

Stefan, I totally agreed with you rant....hopefully we are wrong
We are sitting on the fence about upgrading our licenses, at this point we will have to take a hard long look.

We have been with Softimage/XSI since the early '90..

Leoung

On 9/10/2012 3:07 PM, Stefan Andersson wrote:
Just to throw some more gasoline onto the fire.

So the value to a 3dsmax/Maya user would be to use Softimage as a particle plugin. Everything else their respective Software is good at.

I know you don't agree with them Graham, and it's not you who "wrote/made" this :) It's been said over and over again on this list, it doesn't seem that Autodesk cares about Softimage.

And it's for that reason alone that I don't recommend anyone (anymore) to buy or learn Softimage. Autodesk representatives on this list is trying to assure us, but apparently those people have absolutely NO contact with the Marketing/PR people. It's not that we have been asking for much, but the way they market Softimage and the way new users and studios look at Softimage... well... you get my point.

I don't want Softimage to be a good companion to Maya&3dsmax, I want Softimage to kick their ass and make all users leave their software and use Softimage instead!! But that is not in Autodesk view a good thing. And for this reason I think Autodesk is really bad for Softimage.

Why is attitude and "kick butt" mentality a bad thing? it's what keeps a lot of us going and improving our-self. It's what makes us trying to reach for those extra 10% in a production.

Am I pissed at Autodesk? you bet you sweet ass I am. I spent years behind Softimage and got companies to buy the software that were Maya based, and really really tried to get it to work...
With ICE I had big hopes. But... Autodesk had little incentive to kick Maya/3dsmax out the window. They made Softimage into a particle plugin.

So what happens now?

I know it's pointless rant, and it just adds fuel to the fire. But it's difficult to talk about something positive when it comes to Softimage. It's like having a Formula One car, but you live in the country side and no one understands why you have it.

Sorry for the rant everyone.

best regards
Stefan
On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 4:36 PM, Graham Bell <Graha...@autodesk.com<mailto:Graha...@autodesk.com>> wrote:
Perhaps worth pointing out that this is a Entertainment Creation 'Suites' magazine and of the course the two main flavours (Ultimate aside) for the Suites are Maya and Max. And therefore the three packages shown in the image are all including in the Maya/Max Suites, hence the reason for trying to show their value to those respective users.



winmail.dat

Milan Vasek

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Sep 10, 2012, 4:09:43 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
> This is a perfectly valid point, however playing a neutral card for a moment and to just throw something out there....how do we do that?
> There are plenty of Maya/Max based studios out there, skilled up, decent pipeline with some tech & tools, and producing very good and capable work for years, how would you get them to then rip all that up and go with Softimage?
> I'm not sure it's that easy, expanding the capability of a pipeline by adding another solution/software is one thing, but a complete replacement/retool of your core 3D app? That's a whole bigger thing altogether. 
 
But there are also many students, beginners, freelancers, small studio etc. choosing Modo/Cinema4d or Max/Maya because 50% of them don't even know some Softimage exists and the rest thinks that it's just "that software Autodesk bought and is going to kill it soon". Maybe it would be good to start with these people... Show that Autodesk cares about Softimage, put on one the same level etc.... 




Milan Vasek
3d artist



Stefan Andersson

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Sep 10, 2012, 4:15:20 PM9/10/12
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I don't know, it used to be something those marketing/pr people stay up at night and come up with those nifty slogans.

I can just say that Softimage would probably replace 80% of the so called "pipeline tools" that are created to work around the software. Just put any Maya artist infront of a vanilla install of Maya and they will scream... :)
ICE would probably wipe out 90% of the in-house scripts that are created. And instead they would have a better modal/nodal system to work with.

But.... the main problem these days is probably not the technology, it's finding the people who can do it. Not a lot of Softimage artists that are highlevel TD's around. Most of them are on this list, and they already have a job :)

regards
stefan andersson

Alok

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Sep 10, 2012, 4:16:55 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
I agree with Graham, also please keep in mind that Soft is the not choice of software when it comes to fluids, volume rendering out of the box. We still need Mootz, Holger, Exocortex and other additional plugins to use soft for sfx. Especially in a feature film pipeline, the choice for visual effects DCC Apps lands on Maya and Houdini (and with the recent takeover of Naiad, thing are lined up interestingly for future). 3D Max still serves to a primarily gaming, architectural design, engineering solution and to some extent maybe medical animation. Also keep in mind that because of the prevalent large user/studio /schools base Maya still has more artists than softimage. It is hard for studios to find talents for softimage. If you want to hire for immediate project needs and throw up a job listing looking for both Softimage and Maya artists, chances are you will receive more Maya applicants then Soft, able to pull off the same stunts on the shots.

I love softimage for everything, but the truth is, it is becoming more and more of a niche tool with ICE offerings and having specialist for that. Outside the softimage universe, to the other planets we are known as an exotic alien species with some magical powers of ICE. We are not a part of the republic, and the battle to rule . . . . well that is another episode altogether.

My 2 paise !

Alok
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Peter Agg

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Sep 10, 2012, 4:29:37 PM9/10/12
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For what it's worth, although I find this obviously a bit silly, I can see something in what Graham says.

If Soft is going to get pushed, it really needs two things: 1) Bums in seats/licenses in houses - if these suite things mean there's a larger smattering of shops with the odd license kicking about then that can only be a good thing for me. Not only does it mean that there's somewhere else out there will to pay me money to do the non-boring parts of projects but it means that the software is potentially being used in production. If it works better, it'll creep along nicely slowly as Houdini is proving, to some extent.

However, to make it work in production there also needs to be 2) the resources to enable people in a Maya/Max house to get good stuff out of Soft (it's not like ICE is that straightforward), which is where the loss of Blair and the issues with xsiBase are so worrying. Will just have to hope that people can find this here list easily enough!


Pete

Craig Tozzi

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Sep 10, 2012, 4:30:50 PM9/10/12
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Of course that isn't going to happen, unless a studio/individual is forced to.  If you had a lot of seats of Shake some years back, it's likely you've moved onto Nuke etc. by now.

Softimage really feels that it's on the periphery of AD's marketing radar - that graphic literally (in the truest sense of the word) lays that out for all to see. Somehow a full featured program has been reduced to a particle generation system in the eyes of those who don't know any better. 

New studios and students have to make a choice at some point into what they're going to center a pipeline/skills/talent around. Honestly, considering this - what decision would you make? So you buy a suite…are you willing to build in and be responsible for a budget, pipeline and artists for three separate applications over a series of years? How deep are your pockets?

This is a very real concern. If there's no marketing to consider Soft as a standalone app, no sane startup or student would consider specializing in the product. Likewise, why would any existing studio consider integrating the app, as - over time - less and less resources are put to it, and less artists truly know the app?  It makes no sense.

Considering this, Softimage either gets sold or it dies on the vine. I'll put a crisp $2. bill on a 5 year lifespan as an existing product.  I hope AD proves me wrong.

David Barosin

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Sep 10, 2012, 4:44:36 PM9/10/12
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I don't think you really need to do much except allow Softimage a fighting chance.  The companies are able to make their own decisions.  Maybe I've heard too many rumors at this point but it seems like Autodesk is the first in line to talk companies out of moving forward with Softimage as a core app. 

To answer the neutral question.

Promote Softimage equally (There is a problem though - with all the negative rumors that have damaged any interest to date, maybe an extra scoop of marketing is in order to undo the damage)
Equally meaning on all fronts  - website, trade shows, the inside scoop conversations with clients, suites, body language ;)

Softimage is a fine piece of software.  Was it my imagination or was Softimage gaining popularity with ICE right before Autodesk purchased it.  I wonder where it would be if it if it didn't have such anemic marketing.

Btw that graph doesn't even include compositing ;)

Peter Agg

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Sep 10, 2012, 4:51:14 PM9/10/12
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It's not like companies were particularly forced into Nuke though (hell, some places are still to finish the transition!), people went because it was better and people learnt it because it was better. Whether Soft is as far ahead of Maya/Max as Nuke was to Shake is a bit more debatable. Still, the winds seem to be blowing in the direction of more diverse, specialist software so Soft could well find it's place in that yet.

Martin Belleau

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Sep 10, 2012, 5:04:35 PM9/10/12
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It's my understanding that 95% of 3D users in the movie industry uses Maya + Renderman. If this is indeed true, then it's logical for AD to put energy there instead of trying to get those users to use XSI, thus also forcing a change in pipelines.

 

 

 

 

From: Peter Agg [mailto:pete...@googlemail.com]
Sent: September-10-12 4:51 PM
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: In case you missed it..

 

It's not like companies were particularly forced into Nuke though (hell, some places are still to finish the transition!), people went because it was better and people learnt it because it was better. Whether Soft is as far ahead of Maya/Max as Nuke was to Shake is a bit more debatable. Still, the winds seem to be blowing in the direction of more diverse, specialist software so Soft could well find it's place in that yet.


Craig Tozzi

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Sep 10, 2012, 5:06:51 PM9/10/12
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When Apple killed Shake, they gave end users the option of buying the source code for $50K. so that studios could maintain pipelines they had spent serious $$ and man-hours on. If you weren't interested in that, the writing was on the wall.  Sure you could use it until whenever you liked…until OS upgrades etc. eventually degrade the product. An EOL notice from the developer?  That'll force your hand, eventually.

The thing is - Soft is a full featured app, getting relegated to some form of "specialized" status.  If you have time and $$ invested in that product, particularly if that's your primary app - it's not a good feeling.

Like I said earlier - I've been here before. Feels vaguely familiar.  I want to be optimistic about it, but AD isn't doing to much to convince me otherwise.

Graham Bell

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Sep 10, 2012, 5:08:30 PM9/10/12
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I'd happily use a silver bullet if I had one, but I do agree that it's the coverage that would no doubt raise awareness.
Though I must point out that while it appear that Softimage gets the short straw when it comes to marketing and events etc, it's not as bad as many might think. It's what we actually show, that I think we perhaps just fall short on. The demo content just lacks the punch that it used to have. We just need to make it more compelling (and we are trying).

As for inside scoop stuff, from an EMEA point of view we're currently in the process of planning our Q3/Q4 webinars and I would definitely like to get some Softimage studios and work highlighted.

G


From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of David Barosin
Sent: 10 September 2012 21:45
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: In case you missed it..

I don't think you really need to do much except allow Softimage a fighting chance. The companies are able to make their own decisions. Maybe I've heard too many rumors at this point but it seems like Autodesk is the first in line to talk companies out of moving forward with Softimage as a core app.

To answer the neutral question.

Promote Softimage equally (There is a problem though - with all the negative rumors that have damaged any interest to date, maybe an extra scoop of marketing is in order to undo the damage)
Equally meaning on all fronts - website, trade shows, the inside scoop conversations with clients, suites, body language ;)

Softimage is a fine piece of software. Was it my imagination or was Softimage gaining popularity with ICE right before Autodesk purchased it. I wonder where it would be if it if it didn't have such anemic marketing.

Btw that graph doesn't even include compositing ;)





On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 3:55 PM, Graham Bell <Graha...@autodesk.com<mailto:Graha...@autodesk.com>> wrote:
"I don't want Softimage to be a good companion to Maya&3dsmax, I want Softimage to kick their ass and make all users leave their software and use Softimage instead!!"
This is a perfectly valid point, however playing a neutral card for a moment and to just throw something out there....how do we do that?
There are plenty of Maya/Max based studios out there, skilled up, decent pipeline with some tech & tools, and producing very good and capable work for years, how would you get them to then rip all that up and go with Softimage?
I'm not sure it's that easy, expanding the capability of a pipeline by adding another solution/software is one thing, but a complete replacement/retool of your core 3D app? That's a whole bigger thing altogether.


G


From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com> [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com>] On Behalf Of Leoung O'Young
Sent: 10 September 2012 20:35
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:soft...@listproc.autodesk.com>
Subject: Re: In case you missed it..

Stefan, I totally agreed with you rant....hopefully we are wrong
We are sitting on the fence about upgrading our licenses, at this point we will have to take a hard long look.

We have been with Softimage/XSI since the early '90..

Leoung

On 9/10/2012 3:07 PM, Stefan Andersson wrote:
Just to throw some more gasoline onto the fire.

So the value to a 3dsmax/Maya user would be to use Softimage as a particle plugin. Everything else their respective Software is good at.

I know you don't agree with them Graham, and it's not you who "wrote/made" this :) It's been said over and over again on this list, it doesn't seem that Autodesk cares about Softimage.

And it's for that reason alone that I don't recommend anyone (anymore) to buy or learn Softimage. Autodesk representatives on this list is trying to assure us, but apparently those people have absolutely NO contact with the Marketing/PR people. It's not that we have been asking for much, but the way they market Softimage and the way new users and studios look at Softimage... well... you get my point.

I don't want Softimage to be a good companion to Maya&3dsmax, I want Softimage to kick their ass and make all users leave their software and use Softimage instead!! But that is not in Autodesk view a good thing. And for this reason I think Autodesk is really bad for Softimage.

Why is attitude and "kick butt" mentality a bad thing? it's what keeps a lot of us going and improving our-self. It's what makes us trying to reach for those extra 10% in a production.

Am I pissed at Autodesk? you bet you sweet ass I am. I spent years behind Softimage and got companies to buy the software that were Maya based, and really really tried to get it to work...
With ICE I had big hopes. But... Autodesk had little incentive to kick Maya/3dsmax out the window. They made Softimage into a particle plugin.

So what happens now?

I know it's pointless rant, and it just adds fuel to the fire. But it's difficult to talk about something positive when it comes to Softimage. It's like having a Formula One car, but you live in the country side and no one understands why you have it.

Sorry for the rant everyone.

best regards
Stefan
On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 4:36 PM, Graham Bell <Graha...@autodesk.com<mailto:Graha...@autodesk.com><mailto:Graha...@autodesk.com<mailto:Graha...@autodesk.com>>> wrote:
Perhaps worth pointing out that this is a Entertainment Creation 'Suites' magazine and of the course the two main flavours (Ultimate aside) for the Suites are Maya and Max. And therefore the three packages shown in the image are all including in the Maya/Max Suites, hence the reason for trying to show their value to those respective users.


winmail.dat

Serguei Kalentchouk

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Sep 10, 2012, 6:35:37 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
I feel a strong sense of deja vu...

I know we all like XSI on this list but I always feel in these
discussions that the the perceived benefit of XSI over Maya is greatly
exaggerated due to personal preference.
Yes, more marketing of the product is always great but the reality is
that the people who make decisions about pipelines are for the most
part already familiar with XSI, many have actually worked with it in
recent past.
It is simply not true to assume that the only reason that studios
don't switch is because they somehow are oblivious to its awesomeness.

Unfortunately as it stands XSI simply does not deliver any
overwhelming benefits in production over the existing tool set,
therefore on a cost/benefit analysis it simply isn't worth the switch.
The argument that simply by switching to XSI a studio can ditch
hundreds or proprietary tools that were written for Maya is bogus,
because most of those tools were written to extend the capabilities of
the application and would need to be written for XSI as well because
they surpass its capabilities too. Whether or not XSI could be
extended in the same way would be up for debate as well!

At the end of the day Autodesk needs to make decisions based on the
current situation and the foreseeable trends and wide adoption of XSI
by mid to large scale studios is just not in the cards.


(I'm using Maya as an example, in my current situation I could make
the same arguments against switching from proprietary software that
leaves a lot to be desired)

--
Technical Director @ DreamWorks Animation

Guy Rabiller

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Sep 10, 2012, 6:35:59 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com

And if you considere TV series as an industry, don't forget to mention
Lightwave wich covers most of the VFX produced in this area.

And in feature film pipelines, it even took over Maya for "Iron Sky".

Sometimes, 'simpler' tools (no disrespect) are more efficient for the job.

Cheers,
Guy.
--
guy rabiller | raa.tel | radfac founder/ceo
tel: 0977 195 006 | mob: 0675 183 146 | fax: 0972 288 293
>> stefan andersson - digital janitor -http://sanders3d.wordpress.com

Steven Caron

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Sep 10, 2012, 6:53:09 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
indeed, API wise i will always admit Maya's is more open and in that way better. i have no delusions about my choice being anything more than 'personal preference'.

s

Simon Reeves

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Sep 10, 2012, 7:25:26 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com

Pete's point about about having more licences knocking around because of the suite has already come to light in the small studio I'm working at... They Had a good offer to upgrade to the suites, useful to have a licence of maya and xsi for the odd thing ...and I think they're tired of max, some not so great experience with maya, and me in the corner yapping on about soft. They're used to vray so that's a bonus, interested in Arnold, and whatever ICE may be. 
That AD image is mostly funny because of how max hangs on in the middle, never mind where soft is.. And maybe it's good it has a separate role, not being one of the two apps that do the same job (according to the image)

Sam Cuttriss

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Sep 10, 2012, 8:03:43 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
If Softimage really is spearheading autodesk's particle initiative i would have expected to see significantly more investment in the features/ finesse and usability of ice.  
Im only vaguely disappointed in being labeled a particle plugin, but if that really is the case lets see you put your money where your mouth is.


David Barosin

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Sep 10, 2012, 8:13:18 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
I'm really not asking for a hard sell to big studios.  Just clear the road and not impede Softimage from becoming something if a big or small studio takes an interest.  Give it an honest equally marketed chance next to the other apps.



Kiril Aronofski

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Sep 10, 2012, 8:25:02 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
This discussion has been led repeatedly over the past several years and, frankly, nothing indicates it will ever change. The outlook of Softimage has even deteriorated quite a lot...

I am one of the students who made the leap of faith a few years ago and jumped into Softimage on account of being very impressed with its animation capabilities and general enthusiasm surrounding ICE. While the learning has been nothing but a pleasantry, I am sad to say, I can only see it as a huge mistake now. Prior to this, I have, rather unwisely, not contacted studios in my area - or tried in any other way - to find out which software they require the knowledge of. Now, getting closer to graduation, I have kept an eye out for the past few months and the situation is depressingly bleak. Job offerings that involve XSI in any way come so rarely, I have already started retraining myself for Maya (which I have some previous experience with).

Don't mean to come off as some kind of a whiner, but I'll make a point that saying AD is trying to get Softimage needed exposure by getting more studios on the suites is naive and fundamentally wrong because this is actually the ONLY way they are exposing it. While Max and Maya are getting into peoples hands left and right, Softimage is limited to an odd mention on the side and even than just to let you know you can fly some particles around in ICE.

I cannot possibly see how demoting a full-fledged package to a simple helper tool can encourage any one individual, let alone a studio, to base their long term plans on it.

...

I thought about what Serguei Kalentchouk said and I would trust someone from DreamWorks to know what he's talking about. My question is, is XSI now worse than Maya was 6, 8, 10 years ago when these studios started building their pipelines? I have no illusions soft will not be radically changing a decade old institution, but does it mean that can't stand on the same footing when offered fresh and off the shelf?


Kiril

Steven Caron

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Sep 10, 2012, 8:33:28 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
"I am sad to say, I can only see it as a huge mistake now."

dont look at it this way, you learned 3d, you enjoyed doing so. now get a job on your skills, knowledge, and likability... if you so happen to get to use softimage, great. otherwise you can annoy your co workers how you would do it 'this way' or 'that way' in softimage. :)

i too was a student once, and i too decided to use softimage instead, against all my teachers advice in fact. i have been able to find all my jobs that use some if not all softimage. i have had to use maya and max and have had no issue doing so.

sorry for the little derailment/pep talk for kiril.

s

Bradley Gabe

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Sep 10, 2012, 8:36:45 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
How many schools are training students using Houdini as the main application?

Eric Thivierge

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Sep 10, 2012, 8:44:47 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
You'll be a better more versatile 3D artist for knowing both. I've used both back and forth over the years, more Softimage than Maya but am coming to the realization its about doing 3D not applications. General knowledge of your profession executed with the tools each package offers. Though I'm never going to touch Max. Even with a 10 foot pole.

--------------------------------------------
Eric Thivierge
http://www.ethivierge.com

Eric Turman

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Sep 10, 2012, 8:48:04 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
The "its just a tool" argument. If that were true, we would still all be using sticks and rocks.
--




-=T=-

Bradley Gabe

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Sep 10, 2012, 8:51:02 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Please don't knock sticks and rocks. They are still some of the best tools for dealing with annoying clients.

Eric Thivierge

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Sep 10, 2012, 8:53:39 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Its OK, whenever you get a job offer that involves Maya that you have no idea how to do, pass it on my way so I can earn a living. :) Its silly to pigeon hole yourself into only knowing 1 app and never learning others.

Hypothetically if one app does get canned you're screwed and have to hustle to retrain very quickly and may end you up in the poor house instead of easily transitioning to another studio.

I love using Softimage don't get me wrong.


--------------------------------------------
Eric Thivierge
http://www.ethivierge.com


Rob Chapman

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Sep 10, 2012, 8:54:58 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
wonder whats the best tool to deal with annoying decisions made at Autodesk?

Halim Negadi

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Sep 10, 2012, 8:56:06 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Stefan, there's a lot of unemployed Soft guys down here in Paris, everybody has to move to London to be able to use a skillset that is over 10 years worth for most of them.

Most of Soft companies over here switched ( painfully for some of them ) to Maya because AD made Soft literally disappear from their catalog.
Financial people usually don't have a clue and don't really care of how advanced a software is compared to another.
What do you think they tend to decide when it comes to licensing and support renewal for an over 2k/seat software solution that is not even mentioned by the res-sellers because they are heavily advised not to ?

Over here we don't have much of a choice anymore, we have to go and find a job somewhere else or get used to workaround maya all day long.
Some of us can do it because it pays the bills, some others cannot. In any case, passion tends to vanish.

I've personally been around for way over a decade now and I can tell there's always been some competition and technological choice, except from the past 4 years.
We had Explore vs Soft|3D, Explore vs Power Animator, Soft vs Maya, Max vs Maya, XSI vs Maya, Maya&Max vs XSI.. and then the 2008 deal went down.
The mainstream CG world got paralyzed since then and reached a uniformity I still cannot imagine happening in the 2010's.

Even Maya people are not happy with this situation, more and more of them start thinking that ever since AD bought their main competitor, big DCCs have reached a huge stagnation that benefits to no one, not even AD.

Please AD, bring Soft back to a decent and fair exposure, at least closer to the one it deserves or sell it back if you're embarrassed.
I'm sure there's a lot of interested and rich people who would buy it, you'll make money out of your 2008 deal and you'll make anger go down.

Everybody knows ICE integration in Maya would have been done already if it was as easy as you guys thought when you closed the deal with Avid.
Just get inspired by the concept, help yourself with the code, hook it up to your weapon and get ours back to light. Just get the party started again, I'm sure you'll feel unexpected benefits.

Give back the choice of interaction model to people. This is more the center of the debate than the actual technological value.
Both packages have their strengths and weaknesses but please let people choose, a lot of them are artists, not only technicians.

Don't wait until someone comes up with a high performance DCC-like suite made with Fabric Engine or whatever, because a this point, more people than you expect will jump on it and the downhill might be steep.
Maya might end up just as a keyframing tool that allows a producer to line up 50 animators on the spot without any training costs. All the TDs that have been building it's worth for years deserves better.

Steven Caron

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Sep 10, 2012, 9:03:45 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
do you know about andy goldsworthy? http://www.ucblueash.edu/artcomm/web/w2005_2006/maria_Goldsworthy/TEST/index.html

i think your example doesn't hold up very, are you saying that if someone takes softimage away from you tomorrow you will cease to create?

s

Eric Turman

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Sep 10, 2012, 9:21:11 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
I never said I only know one app...I've used over a dozen of them over the last 20 years and I am very familiar with and know how to use Maya very well. Although there are some commonalities between all packages they are definitely not all the same. So I submit the argument that it *is* as much about the package as it is about general 3D knowledge. You pretty much state so yourself by excluding 3DS Max out of the equation.
--




-=T=-

Kiril Aronofski

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Sep 10, 2012, 9:24:51 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
>How many schools are training students using Houdini as the main application?

Is it relevant? I have not argued more schools should teach Softimage. I have argued its perceived value, encouraged by Autodesk, is lower than it should be (keep in mind I'm not putting it in comparative relation to any other application). Besides, Houdini is top of its niche and Sidefx didn't buy Softimage so it can quietly coexist under Houdini.


RE: learning more than one

This is a nice argument but, ideally, you'd prefer the software you put time into pay off in the end, right? Not fear for your chances because you're not nearly as prolific in a different one... Anyway, it was wrong of me to bring personal worries into discussion...

It is worth saying this cycle of studios avoiding soft because of a smaller talent pool, and the pool getting even smaller as a result, is going to have an effect eventually. If it didn't already.



Kiril

Matt Lind

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Sep 10, 2012, 9:31:58 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com

It’s not an issue about creating art, Steven.  The issue is about retaining the rank and standard of living in the work force.

 

There is a very real argument if somebody takes Softimage away our net worth goes down considerably because our skills are specialized that we can’t just plug into another work environment without considerable retraining.  It’s primarily the employer’s perception/opinion that knowledge is not fully portable, and therefore whatever applicable knowledge you have doesn’t compare with somebody who is already well versed in the applications they already use.  I don’t agree with it as I feel my 20 years of production knowledge and experience with Softimage is more valuable and applicable than some college kid who only took a few semesters of Maya, but that’s the way it is. 

 

Heck, even within my own studio walls I fight this perception as I’m labeled a Softimage expert, but if a topic of discussion comes up that is not directly softimage related, my opinions aren’t given the weight even when I know more about the subject than the other people in the room.  They don’t consider my computer science background or that I was formerly an animator (traditional cel and 3D).

 

Perception is a powerful force.

 

Matt

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Steven Caron
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 6:04 PM
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: In case you missed it..

 

Guy Rabiller

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Sep 10, 2012, 9:34:47 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com


> Please AD, bring Soft back to a decent and fair exposure, at least
> closer to the one it deserves or sell it back if you're embarrassed.
> I'm sure there's a lot of interested and rich people who would buy it,
> you'll make money out of your 2008 deal and you'll make anger go down.

That, I think, will never happen, because AD did not buy Softimage for
XSI but for the patents Softimage had over its technologies. Reselling
Softimage would mean reselling the patents as well, and that is
precisely what they want to avoid. Buying as much patents as possible is
the only way to really shadow competitors.


> Don't wait until someone comes up with a high performance DCC-like
suite made with ../..

That's why I keep on saying the 'true' solution will have to come up
from the Open Source community. This is the only valid path. But it will
take some time.


Cheers,
Guy.
--
guy rabiller | raa.tel | radfac founder/ceo
tel: 0977 195 006 | mob: 0675 183 146 | fax: 0972 288 293


> <mailto:Graha...@autodesk.com><mailto:Graha...@autodesk.com <mailto:Graha...@autodesk.com>>>
> wrote:
> Perhaps worth pointing out that this is a Entertainment Creation
> 'Suites' magazine and of the course the two main flavours
> (Ultimate aside) for the Suites are Maya and Max. And therefore
> the three packages shown in the image are all including in the
> Maya/Max Suites, hence the reason for trying to show their value
> to those respective users.
>
>
>
> From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com
> <mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com><mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com
> <mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com>>
> [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com
> <mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com><mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com
> <mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com>>] On Behalf Of
> Paul Griswold
> Sent: 10 September 2012 15:08
> To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
> <mailto:soft...@listproc.autodesk.com><mailto:soft...@listproc.autodesk.com

Eric Thivierge

unread,
Sep 10, 2012, 9:36:25 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Purely because I dislike the interaction model not the features / workflow.


--------------------------------------------
Eric Thivierge
http://www.ethivierge.com


Steven Caron

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Sep 10, 2012, 9:58:30 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
i get that, might have missed the context which eric was response was too, but i still think its possible to build knowledge in an app and translate it and at least return to your prior rank and earnings after a bit of time. but i think i am diverging from the points trying to be made here, if autodesk could better market softimage and actually vastly improve its market share (ignoring if thats even in their interest to do) you wouldn't have to learn a new package :)

perception is powerful, so if i were in the situation where i could no longer use softimage professionally i would change the way i market myself. from a purely survival perspective that is. that perspective allows me to look at the current situation and not be so upset about it.

hope i am making sense
s

Sylvain Lebeau

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Sep 10, 2012, 10:02:05 PM9/10/12
to guy.ra...@radfac.com, soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
i agree with you Guy,
Autodesk will keep the patents for sure to try to pimp up Maya.

But... Open source software has a so chaotic and stochastic developpement scheme. Check how blender evolves. Lotsa new features all the time, but all in separatly sparsed developpement cocoons. And it is always buggy and flaky... Just like being on Alpha or beta versions all the time.   And one day you even end up with a totally new interface. Surprise!

Of course, we can see very nice things like Alembic or OpenExr as file formats as open source efforts. But who will want to create pieces of softwares without earning from it with all the developpement involved for serious rock solid production proven packages? Wow that would be awesome in a perfect world.

I see a big difference between GIMP and a top of the line 3D app.   Or modules? ... that would be even worst for interop integrety i think.  I dont know.

you really think it will happen?  It would be cool for sure!

sly

Monday, September 10, 2012 9:34 PM


> Please AD, bring Soft back to a decent and fair exposure, at least
> closer to the one it deserves or sell it back if you're embarrassed.
> I'm sure there's a lot of interested and rich people who would buy it,
> you'll make money out of your 2008 deal and you'll make anger go down.

That, I think, will never happen, because AD did not buy Softimage for XSI but for the patents Softimage had over its technologies. Reselling Softimage would mean reselling the patents as well, and that is precisely what they want to avoid. Buying as much patents as possible is the only way to really shadow competitors.


> Don't wait until someone comes up with a high performance DCC-like suite made with ../..

That's why I keep on saying the 'true' solution will have to come up from the Open Source community. This is the only valid path. But it will take some time.


Cheers,
Guy.
--
guy rabiller | raa.tel | radfac founder/ceo
tel: 0977 195 006 | mob: 0675 183 146 | fax: 0972 288 293



Monday, September 10, 2012 8:56 PM
Stefan, there's a lot of unemployed Soft guys down here in Paris, everybody has to move to London to be able to use a skillset that is over 10 years worth for most of them.

Most of Soft companies over here switched ( painfully for some of them ) to Maya because AD made Soft literally disappear from their catalog.
Financial people usually don't have a clue and don't really care of how advanced a software is compared to another.
What do you think they tend to decide when it comes to licensing and support renewal for an over 2k/seat software solution that is not even mentioned by the res-sellers because they are heavily advised not to ?

Over here we don't have much of a choice anymore, we have to go and find a job somewhere else or get used to workaround maya all day long.
Some of us can do it because it pays the bills, some others cannot. In any case, passion tends to vanish.

I've personally been around for way over a decade now and I can tell there's always been some competition and technological choice, except from the past 4 years.
We had Explore vs Soft|3D, Explore vs Power Animator, Soft vs Maya, Max vs Maya, XSI vs Maya, Maya&Max vs XSI.. and then the 2008 deal went down.
The mainstream CG world got paralyzed since then and reached a uniformity I still cannot imagine happening in the 2010's.

Even Maya people are not happy with this situation, more and more of them start thinking that ever since AD bought their main competitor, big DCCs have reached a huge stagnation that benefits to no one, not even AD.

Please AD, bring Soft back to a decent and fair exposure, at least closer to the one it deserves or sell it back if you're embarrassed.
I'm sure there's a lot of interested and rich people who would buy it, you'll make money out of your 2008 deal and you'll make anger go down.

Everybody knows ICE integration in Maya would have been done already if it was as easy as you guys thought when you closed the deal with Avid.
Just get inspired by the concept, help yourself with the code, hook it up to your weapon and get ours back to light. Just get the party started again, I'm sure you'll feel unexpected benefits.

Give back the choice of interaction model to people. This is more the center of the debate than the actual technological value.
Both packages have their strengths and weaknesses but please let people choose, a lot of them are artists, not only technicians.

Don't wait until someone comes up with a high performance DCC-like suite made with Fabric Engine or whatever, because a this point, more people than you expect will jump on it and the downhill might be steep.
Maya might end up just as a keyframing tool that allows a producer to line up 50 animators on the spot without any training costs. All the TDs that have been building it's worth for years deserves better.


Monday, September 10, 2012 4:15 PM
I don't know, it used to be something those marketing/pr people stay up at night and come up with those nifty slogans.

I can just say that Softimage would probably replace 80% of the so called "pipeline tools" that are created to work around the software. Just put any Maya artist infront of a vanilla install of Maya and they will scream... :)
ICE would probably wipe out 90% of the in-house scripts that are created. And instead they would have a better modal/nodal system to work with.

But.... the main problem these days is probably not the technology, it's finding the people who can do it. Not a lot of Softimage artists that are highlevel TD's around. Most of them are on this list, and they already have a job :)

regards
stefan andersson

--
stefan andersson - digital janitor - http://sanders3d.wordpress.com
Monday, September 10, 2012 3:55 PM
"I don't want Softimage to be a good companion to Maya&3dsmax, I want Softimage to kick their ass and make all users leave their software and use Softimage instead!!"

This is a perfectly valid point, however playing a neutral card for a moment and to just throw something out there....how do we do that?
There are plenty of Maya/Max based studios out there, skilled up, decent pipeline with some tech & tools, and producing very good and capable work for years, how would you get them to then rip all that up and go with Softimage?
I'm not sure it's that easy, expanding the capability of a pipeline by adding another solution/software is one thing, but a complete replacement/retool of your core 3D app? That's a whole bigger thing altogether.


G


From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Leoung O'Young
Sent: 10 September 2012 20:35
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: In case you missed it..

Stefan, I totally agreed with you rant....hopefully we are wrong
We are sitting on the fence about upgrading our licenses, at this point we will have to take a hard long look.

We have been with Softimage/XSI since the early '90..

Leoung

On 9/10/2012 3:07 PM, Stefan Andersson wrote:
Just to throw some more gasoline onto the fire.

So the value to a 3dsmax/Maya user would be to use Softimage as a particle plugin. Everything else their respective Software is good at.

I know you don't agree with them Graham, and it's not you who "wrote/made" this :) It's been said over and over again on this list, it doesn't seem that Autodesk cares about Softimage.

And it's for that reason alone that I don't recommend anyone (anymore) to buy or learn Softimage. Autodesk representatives on this list is trying to assure us, but apparently those people have absolutely NO contact with the Marketing/PR people. It's not that we have been asking for much, but the way they market Softimage and the way new users and studios look at Softimage... well... you get my point.

I don't want Softimage to be a good companion to Maya&3dsmax, I want Softimage to kick their ass and make all users leave their software and use Softimage instead!! But that is not in Autodesk view a good thing. And for this reason I think Autodesk is really bad for Softimage.

Why is attitude and "kick butt" mentality a bad thing? it's what keeps a lot of us going and improving our-self. It's what makes us trying to reach for those extra 10% in a production.

Am I pissed at Autodesk? you bet you sweet ass I am. I spent years behind Softimage and got companies to buy the software that were Maya based, and really really tried to get it to work...
With ICE I had big hopes. But... Autodesk had little incentive to kick Maya/3dsmax out the window. They made Softimage into a particle plugin.

So what happens now?

I know it's pointless rant, and it just adds fuel to the fire. But it's difficult to talk about something positive when it comes to Softimage. It's like having a Formula One car, but you live in the country side and no one understands why you have it.

Sorry for the rant everyone.

best regards
Stefan
On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 4:36 PM, Graham Bell <Graha...@autodesk.com<mailto:Graha...@autodesk.com>> wrote:
Perhaps worth pointing out that this is a Entertainment Creation 'Suites' magazine and of the course the two main flavours (Ultimate aside) for the Suites are Maya and Max. And therefore the three packages shown in the image are all including in the Maya/Max Suites, hence the reason for trying to show their value to those respective users.



From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com> [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com>] On Behalf Of Paul Griswold
Sent: 10 September 2012 15:08
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:soft...@listproc.autodesk.com>
Subject: In case you missed it..

This is the kind of stuff that makes me really dislike Autodesk: http://yfrog.com/h0t6exxtj

I'm glad to know Softimage is a particle system that has single-step interoperability with the apps in the "Areas of Excellence" (Max and Maya).



-Paul



--
stefan andersson - digital janitor - http://sanders3d.wordpress.com

Monday, September 10, 2012 3:34 PM

Matt Lind

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Sep 10, 2012, 10:09:28 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com

Depending on your job that can be doable or not.

 

There are many more factors at stake other than what software you use.  You have to factor in age, family situation, and so on.  The older you get, the more difficult it is to get another job because your salary requirements are higher.  If your expertise is obsoleted, not too many companies are going to take on an expensive veteran with less applied knowledge than a youngster at half the cost who is fresh legs in the subject.

 

In my case I’ll probably have to go into some other discipline to abstract myself away from the problem.  Not unheard of, but it’s not trivial to start a new career either.

 

Matt

 

 

 

 

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Steven Caron
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 6:59 PM
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: In case you missed it..

 

i get that, might have missed the context which eric was response was too, but i still think its possible to build knowledge in an app and translate it and at least return to your prior rank and earnings after a bit of time. but i think i am diverging from the points trying to be made here, if autodesk could better market softimage and actually vastly improve its market share (ignoring if thats even in their interest to do) you wouldn't have to learn a new package :)

Steven Caron

unread,
Sep 10, 2012, 10:40:40 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
right, talking about survival here, i recognize the difficulty.

Guy Rabiller

unread,
Sep 10, 2012, 10:57:34 PM9/10/12
to Sylvain Lebeau, soft...@listproc.autodesk.com

Well, I'm not sure it will happen but what I'm sure though, is that:


1) OpenSource softwares/communities depend on how they are managed,
what's the goal behind, the spirit, the motivations. It's not because
Blender is what it is that another project should be and behave the same
way.

There are big 'industrial' open source softwares supported by
communities of companies. After all, are not almost all of the big 3D
CGI companies working on Linux ?


2) Developping open source and free softwares does not always mean not
beeing paid for it. Developpers can be supported by companies,
communities, individuals, etc.. How do you think Firefox, Thunderbird
and a multitude of other opensource softwares developpers are eating ?
They are paid for it, yet the softwares are free and opensources. Who
developped OpenEXR, PTex, Alembic, etc.. ? All companies employees.

And there are zillions of other opensource softwares like this in other
industries and areas that are in the same situation and have the same
business model.

Plus this is the ultimate solution against piracy. Peoples paid to
create free products.

This is a working business model but strangely it seems very few peoples
are really aware of it.


3) If nobody does nothing, nothing will never happen.


4) Fortunately, some peoples are already working on it.


Cheers,
Guy.
--
guy rabiller | raa.tel | radfac founder/ceo
tel: 0977 195 006 | mob: 0675 183 146 | fax: 0972 288 293



Le 11/09/2012 04:02, Sylvain Lebeau a écrit :
> i agree with you Guy,
> Autodesk will keep the patents for sure to try to pimp up Maya.
>
> But... Open source software has a so chaotic and stochastic
> developpement scheme. Check how blender evolves. Lotsa new features all
> the time, but all in separatly sparsed developpement cocoons. And it is
> always buggy and flaky... Just like being on Alpha or beta versions all
> the time. And one day you even end up with a totally new interface.
> Surprise!
>
> Of course, we can see very nice things like Alembic or OpenExr as file
> formats as open source efforts. But who will want to create pieces of
> softwares without earning from it with all the developpement involved
> for serious rock solid production proven packages? Wow that would be
> awesome in a perfect world.
>
> I see a big difference between GIMP and a top of the line 3D app. Or
> modules? ... that would be even worst for interop integrety i think. I
> dont know.
>
> you really think it will happen? It would be cool for sure!
>
> sly
>
>> Guy Rabiller <mailto:guy.ra...@radfac.com>
>> Monday, September 10, 2012 9:34 PM
>>
>>
>> > Please AD, bring Soft back to a decent and fair exposure, at least
>> > closer to the one it deserves or sell it back if you're embarrassed.
>> > I'm sure there's a lot of interested and rich people who would buy it,
>> > you'll make money out of your 2008 deal and you'll make anger go down.
>>
>> That, I think, will never happen, because AD did not buy Softimage for
>> XSI but for the patents Softimage had over its technologies. Reselling
>> Softimage would mean reselling the patents as well, and that is
>> precisely what they want to avoid. Buying as much patents as possible
>> is the only way to really shadow competitors.
>>
>>
>> > Don't wait until someone comes up with a high performance DCC-like
>> suite made with ../..
>>
>> That's why I keep on saying the 'true' solution will have to come up
>> from the Open Source community. This is the only valid path. But it
>> will take some time.
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Guy.
>> --
>> guy rabiller | raa.tel | radfac founder/ceo
>> tel: 0977 195 006 | mob: 0675 183 146 | fax: 0972 288 293
>>
>>
>>
>> Halim Negadi <mailto:hne...@gmail.com>
>> Stefan Andersson <mailto:sand...@gmail.com>
>> Monday, September 10, 2012 4:15 PM
>> I don't know, it used to be something those marketing/pr people stay
>> up at night and come up with those nifty slogans.
>>
>> I can just say that Softimage would probably replace 80% of the so
>> called "pipeline tools" that are created to work around the software.
>> Just put any Maya artist infront of a vanilla install of Maya and they
>> will scream... :)
>> ICE would probably wipe out 90% of the in-house scripts that are
>> created. And instead they would have a better modal/nodal system to
>> work with.
>>
>> But.... the main problem these days is probably not the technology,
>> it's finding the people who can do it. Not a lot of Softimage artists
>> that are highlevel TD's around. Most of them are on this list, and
>> they already have a job :)
>>
>> regards
>> stefan andersson
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> stefan andersson - digital janitor - http://sanders3d.wordpress.com
>> Graham Bell <mailto:Graha...@autodesk.com>
>> Leoung O'Young <mailto:digi...@digimata.com>

Halim Negadi

unread,
Sep 11, 2012, 2:26:14 AM9/11/12
to guy.ra...@radfac.com, soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
> Please AD, bring Soft back to a decent and fair exposure, at least
> closer to the one it deserves or sell it back if you're embarrassed.
> I'm sure there's a lot of interested and rich people who would buy it,
> you'll make money out of your 2008 deal and you'll make anger go down.
 
 
That, I think, will never happen, because AD did not buy Softimage for XSI but for the patents Softimage had over its technologies. Reselling Softimage would mean reselling the patents as well, and that is precisely what they want to avoid. Buying as much patents as possible is the only way to really shadow competitors.

I know Guy, I was trying to make some humor out of a dramatic situation that's been going on for four years now. I remember you were saying that the minute after the deal went down.

> Don't wait until someone comes up with a high performance DCC-like suite made with ../..

That's why I keep on saying the 'true' solution will have to come up from the Open Source community. This is the only valid path. But it will take some time.

Once Blender will get rid of it's Z up and get it's interface a little civilized, it's already mature enough to strike pretty hard. Performance wise, it's already far ahead of any other DCC on the market. Unfortunately, the foundation leadership hast it's obsessions and I think they stick on some non-standard choices to kind of maintain the software a side of the industry.

Eugen Sares

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Sep 11, 2012, 4:41:17 AM9/11/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
One, I don't buy the "selling more suites can only be good for SI"
argument. Ok, better than nothing, but selling suites AND promoting SI
as a reasonable standalone app would be fairer, eye height with the
other packages.

But, behold, maybe AD sees things clearer than we could possibly like...
Because, personal preference and bad marketing aside, in truth, SI is
simply not the shining redeemer. Thought it was (stupid), but had to
learn better...

- It's modelling tools might be good, but there's too much missing
(curve based modelling, data and asset import, rendering) to make it a
reasonable choice for the visualization folks. VRay, the de facto
rendering standard in that (quite big) market, is just available for a
few months now.

- It's not long ago that SI got the rendering options it was in dire
need of. (I tried to use mental ray for a big visualization, and it was
a pretty horrible experience...)
One USP for Softimage now is still Arnold, but the Maya version is
making progress. Cool to have VRay, too, maybe even Maxwell, but all of
them need to mature a bit more.

- ICE might be a TDs wet dream, but what does an animator, modeller,
texturer, etc. get out of it on a daily basis? Depends on your job
situation - freelancers/people in small studios need to approach job
tasks more versatile and will profit from it one way or the other. In
bigger companies, specialization is stronger, and some folks will
probably never need (or be allowed) to touch it.

- SDK is always somewhat lagging behind... it's still not open enough
compared to Maya's, which does NOT help when a choice has to be made for
which app to use for the pipeline backbone.
Still, no official PyQt support. It's good to have a clean UI, but
customizability counts these days.
How come it is still difficult to create on-the-fly UVs in a custom topo
Operator, or there are selection problems with the created geometry, or
Clusters (a pretty central concept) are still not fully exposed?
For 3rd-party devs, it's not only the small market share but also things
like this that make it a lesser choice. Don't tell me it's because SI is
so feature complete that there are so litte commercial plugins around.
Praise Mootz, Mathee, Sch�nberger for holding up the flag. Without them,
there would be nothing. Where are the americans/canadians in this?
ICE topo still has a bit of a workaround feel to it... Operators also
seem to be somewhat slow, compared to C++ (but I haven't taken the time
to dig deep).

- Particle rendering is still not where it should be, which makes you
shake your head since it is officially sold as a particle system...

- Ran into a bug with bullet rigid bodies recently, which was a pretty
nasty show-stopper almost... or think of that horrible disconnected
shader bug a while ago... Things like this REALLY do not any good.

And this list does not claim to be complete...
So, bottom line, Softimage stand out (far) in terms of
workflow/usability, versatility out-of-the-box, and ICE, but it still
needs some serious dedicated development efforts in many other places,
to justify stepping before the crowd and promote it as the oh-so-cool app.
Still, it is cool... don't ask me why.

0.01
Eugen

Michal Doniec

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Sep 11, 2012, 5:36:11 AM9/11/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 9:15 PM, Stefan Andersson <sand...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't know, it used to be something those marketing/pr people stay up at
> night and come up with those nifty slogans.

No, they just use this http://bullshitgenerator.blogspot.co.uk/

As far as discussion goes, it's very harmful marketing.
----------
Michal
http://uk.linkedin.com/in/mdoniec

Rob Chapman

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Sep 11, 2012, 6:15:53 AM9/11/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
If there is more profit to be made from Softimage from hiding it as a general, competing against Max / Maya application and selling it as a particle plugin why wouldnt they do it? this is what they have done since the Suites brainiac idea, there is not a shred of evidence anywhere that they tried to sell Softimage any other way. The same guys who came up with that pie chart used similar bullshit logic to rationalise the position of where Softimage should sit in the market.

And over the last 4 years Ive come to realise there is f*ck all we can do about it apart from move on, continue the bitter taste with choices of future applications that will no longer be Autodesk controlled.  next software I try to learn/master is going to be either open source like Guy says or will have some kind of contract or Acknowledgement that it will *never* sell out to the likes of AD.  

Software Tools for the users not for shareholder profits, this is the only light at the end of this tunnel  - if such a thing can exist, am sure Autodesk representatives will say otherwise.

Paul Griswold

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Sep 11, 2012, 7:27:24 AM9/11/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Wow this thread exploded in 24 hours.  Some really great ideas, and thoughts have been shared.  I have to say, Matt Lind I'm right there with you.  By demoting Softimage's perceived value it devalues anyone who uses it as their main app.  Perception is reality - especially when you're dealing with upper management, advertising people, etc.  

If any of you work in advertising, how often do clients demand a Smoke or Flame suite without even knowing what it is or why they need it?  I've seen it happen frequently.  The brand recognition and perception that it is the must-have package drives the market, whether it's the right tool or not.

I've had clients who are 3D savvy ask about my software.  When I told them Softimage, they responded "oh I remember that from the old days... it's still around?".  Ouch!

So in my view, graphs like that continue to push the perception into the marketplace.  It doesn't matter if Softimage is the most complete, "studio in a box" 3D app Autodesk has available when they continually tell the general public it's an accessory to their "real" 3D apps.

Why is it so damaging to Autodesk to continue with the existing marketing plan AND promote Softimage on equal footing to Max and Maya?  

The only rational explanation I can come up with is, if potential new customers (non Max, Maya users) are exposed to Softimage on an equal level to Max and Maya, they will quickly realize it offers significantly more tools than Max and Maya, such as the FXTree, Face Robot, ICE, etc., and it will cut down on sales of the suites.

Big studios are never going to change their pipeline based on some marketing materials.  But there are thousands of new businesses and new freelancers each year who look to start their career using a particular 3D app.  The suites offer a larger source of income than selling individual packages.  But for the small company or freelancer, Softimage alone offers nearly everything they'd need at a lower cost, so the answer is to hide it away and push the more expensive solution.

That's what happens when competition leave the marketplace.

-Paul

Maurice Patel

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Sep 11, 2012, 7:07:32 PM9/11/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Rolling up my sleeves :)
If you don't know me, I (still) head Product/Industry Marketing for M&E and have posted a couple of times on the forum about our strategy.
First. I'd like to respond to the link to the campaign item that started this thread http://yfrog.com/h0t6exxtj:
Although I can't say I am particularly fond of that diagram myself (it's rather ugly), it actually came out of a study commissioned from a third party research company that hired 3ds Max and Maya animators to evaluate what (if any) value Softimage, MotionBuilder and Mudbox offered to Maya and 3ds Max users as a means of determining the value of Suites - so we used it in the Suites Campaign.
The specific purpose of the campaign is to encourage 3ds max and Maya users to buy Suites; so yes it focuses only on the areas of these applications that offer significant value above and beyond what Maya and 3ds max can already do. It is not meant to be an exhaustive description of those applications capabilities.
I know Autodesk Marketing is often hard to fathom - heck it is for us too, but if we want Softimage to survive we (the marketing team) need to work with the system not against it. We are not going run a campaign to switch Maya or 3ds max users to Softimage - that would kill our business and create a massive customer outcry for no real gain. Any expectation that we would do that is unrealistic. So, if we are not going to do that, then we need to find a better way to get people to adopt Softimage and, while not perfect, Suites has been our best bet yet.
Given that, take a pause and ask objectively "where is Autodesk's real opportunity here?" Is it to run a campaign encouraging Softimage users to add Maya (or 3ds max) to their toolset? Or vice versa? Which would (1) be the better business decision and (2) get Softimage in the hands of more users?
You will probably reach the same conclusion we did.
In terms of overall exposure, I am not going to deny that Softimage is less visible than when it was part of Avid. Then Softimage was run as its own entity and there was 100% focus on one(ish) product (ish because there was actually a few more than one). That is not the case now. Autodesk runs its business pretty much as one centralized operation for the sale of efficiency and scale and so M&E competes with hundreds of other Autodesk products for mind share when it comes to marketing investment and visibility - and M&E is not the largest part of Autodesk's business. This dictates exactly how much coverage M&E gets and how many and what products we can feature on things like the home page. Oddly enough though, the bulk of our web traffic actually goes directly to the product pages so it can be argued that this specific point is moot anyway. But yes, visibility is reduced and suffers as a function of a given product's ranking in the Autodesk product stack.
Believe me, I have similar discussions with Flame users who also believe we have abandoned marketing Flame. Deep down most of this is related to our centralized marketing processes discussed above and not to any individual. This is not going to change nor is it clear that any alternative could be successful and/or profitable. Or at least not in the sense one might expect. In the long run Suites and Cloud Services are changing the way Autodesk views products but not in the traditional sense. My team's constant challenge is therefore to figure out how to increase visibility within the systems we have - be it through more aggressive social media strategies (why we launched the Softimage Facebook page) or other methods. While the good old days have nostalgic value (and yes we remember when Discreet Logic had its own website, as did Alias and Softimage, with their own dedicated Marketing resources), we have long realized we can never go back to those days. The battles have moved on to new battlefields - but it does continue!
Maurice

Maurice Patel
Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134


winmail.dat

Raffaele Fragapane

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Sep 11, 2012, 7:31:17 PM9/11/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
While appreciated, that's not terribly encouraging, Maurice.

And I don't know where the idea that marketing should sample the userbase and then promote whatever perception is found came from, but wherever it came from, a link to Phil Knight, Young and Rubican, Armando Testa, and other founders of modern marketing should be sent for their benefit.
It's supposed to alter and guide public perception into profit and want, not to consolidate it (especially when it's clearly flawed) in the hope the receiving end doesn't get mildly offended :p

If a client perceives something he hasn't bought yet a certain way (see diagram), and you literally confirm that and nod vigorously, their incentive to buy that thing will be exactly 0. He will do what he was thinking to do before you reached him.
Since the price is already fixed anyway, you might as well make things a bit more encouraging than "you have to learn an entire new app, as complex as any you already rely on and own and took you years to master, to move a pointcloud around".

But mind, this is unfathomable, not sure it's good to hear that is for you guys as well though ;)

Maurice Patel

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Sep 11, 2012, 8:29:55 PM9/11/12
to <softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>, soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
I don't disagree at all. But dealing with the realities of how things actually work versus how they should work is part of our day to day. We play the cards we are dealt and push for change in ways we feel can succeed. However, there is that saying from Bacon. If the mountain....
But to be clear, we did not sample the user base to get the diagram. The consulting company paid professionals to execute a productivity study that was published separately last year. The diagram is from that.
Whether what we are doing is being elegantly done or not, Autodesk, across its industries,is trying to alter public perception: to move away from the notion of hero products that do everything to a suite of products that provide a best-in-class workflow to (eventually) a set of cloud services that offer you exactly what you need when and where you need it and for as long as you need it. This is a bit simplistic and Utopian but i am typing on a mobile device now. it is however at the heart of Autodesk's strategy. Where each product and industry is in relation to this strategy, as well as its velocity in terms of getting there, is highly variable and it is certainly not going to happen overnight. Dealing with the reality of what we have today in relation to this and in relation to what customers need to do to run their businesses now brings me back to the start of my response :)
winmail.dat

Paul Griswold

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Sep 11, 2012, 8:39:27 PM9/11/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
How about simply the idea of marketing Softimage? Not marketing it to
Max or Maya users to get them to switch, or as a way to get them to
buy suites. Just market it to anyone looking to purchase a 3d app
period. Basic equal marketing for an equal app.

Simply adding the Softimage suite from Japan to the rest of the world
would be a big step forward.

-PG


Phalangically transmitted through an iPad to your cerebral cortex.
> Believe me, I have similar discussions with Flame users who also believe we have abandoned marketing Flame. Deep down most of this is related to our centralized marketing processes discussed above and not to any individual. This is not going to change nor is it clear that any alternative could be successful and/or profitable. Or at least not in the sense one might expect. In the long run Suites and Cloud Services are changing the way Autodesk views products but not in the traditional sense. My team's constant challenge is therefore to figure out how to increase visibility within the systems we have - be it through more aggressive social media strategies (why we launched the Softimage Facebook page) or other methods. While the good old days have nostalgic value (and yes we remember when Discreet Logic had its own website, as did Alias and Softimage, with their own dedicated Marketing resources), we have long realized we can never go back to those days. The battles have move!
d on to new battlefields - but it does continue!
> Maurice
>
> Maurice Patel
> Autodesk : T�l: 514 954-7134
>
>
> <winmail.dat>

Raffaele Fragapane

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Sep 11, 2012, 8:39:45 PM9/11/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Fire the company that did that study then ;) because every other person in the middle end of competence that's never used XSI seems at least curious about facerobot, and not so much about "particles", although ICE these days is of course one of the most positively linked thoughs when Soft is mentioned.

While FR isn't quite as polished and complete as it should be, there's a big chunk of A market that would see value in it, especially since there's no alternative to it and it's less complicated than briding FX pipelines.

It seemed for a while that was being pushed, but I imagine that, like in most other regards it seems, the character and animation markets are already fully cornered anyway, so AD probably doesn't see much benefit in rippling the waters in that pond.

Again, this is my perception of things, I'm sure everything looks differently internally. Maybe there is a big plan internally, but from where I sit my arse, it looks like everything is turned on its head every few months.

Again, you pitching in candidly is sincerely appreciated, at least by me.
--
Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!

Ahmidou Lyazidi

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Sep 11, 2012, 9:23:15 PM9/11/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Hi Maurice,
Here's my two cents:

For the suites, I think softimage people are not that much interested to have a Softimage suite that include Maya or 3dsmax, but rather Mudbox and Motion builder.

About the marketing, I see the point of trying to make softimage enter the studios by the small door, but it's been some years now and can you tell us how successful it is?
I don't think the point is to run a switch campaign, but more giving real exposure to Softimage, present it as a frontline product at least as equal than the 2 others,
and I'd say more as it is in the challenger position.
The facebook page is a good initiative, but it seems quite tied up to the existing users.
You just confirmed with this http://yfrog.com/h0t6exxtj that in people minds softimage as been reduced to a particles software, well it's all because AD marketed it like this!
Even if you reduce Softimage to ICE, then it's all about procedural Geometry, Deformers, Rigging, crowed, and particles.
But it's also the better and faster solution you have for non linear workflow (I've work with both maya and Soft in animated movies production..)

Anyway thanks for clarifying things.
A.


2012/9/12 Maurice Patel <mauric...@autodesk.com>



--
Ahmidou Lyazidi
Director | TD | CG artist
http://vimeo.com/ahmidou/videos

Alok Gandhi

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Sep 12, 2012, 12:04:14 AM9/12/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
In my humble opinion, the simple point here is whether or not Autodesk sees softimage as a full-fledged DCC App or not. The aforementioned campaign item shows it does not, but actually it is.

Softimage is a complete 3D Application and not just a specialized particle package. There are numerous examples out there where full projects are completely done on Softimage alone from start to end. I can vouch for it myself. We are soon ending work on a full cg feature film (not released yet) with 3D stereo completely done on softimage, barring a few fluids and particles (Maya and Houdini) on some shots. And I am talking from modelling, texturing, surfacing, layout, rigging, animation, lighting and rendering. All on Softimage for some 900 shots and some change to spare. I myself have written numerous plugins/tools/scripts/feature addition (both in c++ and python) for endowing/extending it for pipeline and otherwise including complete Layout, Modelling, Animation and Lighting plugins/tools etc. I never said no to any feature extension for pipeline asked of me because everything was doable ! Is it not enough to show that Softimage is a full application. It even has a decent compositor in Fx Tree, if need be. 

Speaking from morality of situation (although business, for most, is everything but morality), Autodesk as a responsible company should give well-informed and undeniably true information about it's products to it's customers. It is a matter of providing true information. 

Since it is a full app, it should be marketed as such. Any alteration to this and we moving away from truth, providing incomplete information to the user.

It may be that for Autodesk, Softimage may not be earning as much revenues as Maya or Max, but it can. Give it the right place it deserves in the campaigns. 

If you really want to undertake a good research exercise (although not very practical maybe), here's what I suggest, take a few users, a completely random sample, who do not know  anything of Maya or Max or Softimage. Ask them to use each one for all kinds of 3D tasks for some time. Then take a vote. I will not be surprised they will value Softimage to be par with Max or Maya, if not more.

Alok.

David Gallagher

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Sep 12, 2012, 12:18:15 AM9/12/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com, Alok Gandhi

Alok what is that project and the studio where you work?

Thanks,
Dave G

Alok Gandhi

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Sep 12, 2012, 12:25:50 AM9/12/12
to David Gallagher, soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
David I work as the Lead Technical Director at Modusfx, Montreal. the project is a CG Feature Film called 'Sarila'. 
--

Kiril Aronofski

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Sep 12, 2012, 12:31:21 AM9/12/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Hello Mr. Patel,

Let me get this straight. Maya and 3dsMax professionals - presumably long time users - have been hired to evaluate in which areas these other applications add value to their main packages? Aside from the unlikely scenario of Autodesk themselves not knowing their own texture painting/sculpting application would excel in exactly this particular area, virtual production software would have great animation/rigging capabilities, and ICE would be more appreciative than what is natively found in max/maya... you have also used their completely unbiased perspective on what qualifies for the "area of excellence" and made a chart with this "data" for a marketing campaign? The same campaign that has been going on for several years and clearly represents companies official stance.

I wouldn't say Softimage is being kept alive. At best, a "particle plugin" has been put on life support.

Discouraging.

Eric Thivierge

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Sep 12, 2012, 2:38:58 AM9/12/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Maurice,

What was the reason AD purchased Softimage if they didn't think they could market it as a full fledged 3D app? Was it to grab most of the market and stifle the competition?

If you really wanted to get a good handle one what benefits Softimage has for users of other packages it would have been better for AD and that screwy research agency to sit a user from Max down with a user familiar with Softimage AND Max then compare notes and show the wide range of benefits and use that in the marketing Same applies to Maya. A one sided view from someone not familiar with using the package being pretty useless should have been obvious I would think for anyone from a marketing background. Its obvious to me someone with no marketing experience.

I'd love to have it all laid out for me though on how the evaluation was done.

Christoph Muetze

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Sep 12, 2012, 3:23:11 AM9/12/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
i don't buy the research-story - instead i believe softimage ended up in
the particles corner because they had to visually balance the
"bonus"-tools of the suites in a chart with a given set of buzzwords.

chris

--
---
Christoph M�tze
http://www.glarestudios.de
http://www.twitter.com/chris_muetze
c...@glarestudios.de

Steven Caron

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Sep 12, 2012, 3:25:36 AM9/12/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
get the talent and patents.

Eric Thivierge

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Sep 12, 2012, 3:53:08 AM9/12/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
What patents?


--------------------------------------------
Eric Thivierge
http://www.ethivierge.com


Steven Caron

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Sep 12, 2012, 3:58:46 AM9/12/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
talent mostly but there are patents some which you might not think are important. type in 'avid technologies render' in google patents search and see for yourself.

halfdan posted this a long time ago i think, but the first comes to mind for me is the render region...
http://www.google.com/patents?id=1k8EAAAAEBAJ&zoom=4&dq=avid%20technology%20render&pg=PA12#v=onepage&q&f=false

s

Eric Thivierge

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Sep 12, 2012, 4:04:40 AM9/12/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Are they worth anything? Anyone else licensing the tech?


--------------------------------------------
Eric Thivierge
http://www.ethivierge.com


Steven Caron

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Sep 12, 2012, 4:05:31 AM9/12/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
oh i should add, i have not clue which patents avid let go if any at all.

Steven Caron

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Sep 12, 2012, 4:07:52 AM9/12/12
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well, since avid was competition at one point. having these patents means they dont have to license it or be brought to court to use the license or avoid the better solution to the problem.

btw, i am purely speculating, as i said i have no idea which patents avid let go if any at all.

s

Stefan Andersson

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Sep 12, 2012, 4:19:38 AM9/12/12
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On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 1:07 AM, Maurice Patel
<mauric...@autodesk.com> wrote:
> this thread http://yfrog.com/h0t6exxtj:
> Although I can't say I am particularly fond of that diagram myself (it's
> rather ugly), it actually came out of a study commissioned from a third

Funny how everyone from Autodesk tells us they "dont agree" or "think
it's ugly". But still they decide to use it.

I remember when Discreet Logic was bought. Funny thing happened... the
Logic went away.

But Autodesk is not the only one to blame. It's the people who ran the
Softimage company back in the late 90's. The battle was actually lost
the year 2000 with the release of Softimage|XSI. Maya had gained so
much popularity, and when Sumatra was finally released we were given a
software that could only do Nurbs and only render with Mental Ray. It
was totally useless and closed. Maya was the total opposite, useful
and open.

What we are seeing now is actually something that happened 12 years
ago. The battle was lost already back then. My regret is only that I
don't jump onto the Maya wagon back then, but stayed in Softimage|3D.
I should have switched and learned MEL.

Anyhow.

As you were...

/stefan

Andreas Bystrom

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Sep 12, 2012, 4:30:25 AM9/12/12
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"My regret is only that I
don't jump onto the Maya wagon back then, but stayed in Softimage|3D.
I should have switched and learned MEL."

Not I,  having to learn something as filthy as maya as my first app most likely would have caused me to give up and try something else..

in fact I started out in both max and maya but never got anywhere til I tried softimage...

long live the good old days!
--
Andreas Byström
Lighting TD - Weta Digital

Stefan Andersson

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Sep 12, 2012, 4:41:04 AM9/12/12
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My first 3D application was 3d studio r4, couldn't get anywhere. Then
I learned Amapi and Electric Image and came a bit further :)

However.... Maya isn't that bad. Gotten used to it over the years and
I'm quite bilingual these days.

People who started with Prism deserve a price though.

regards
stefan andersson
> Andreas Bystr�m
> Lighting TD - Weta Digital
>



Szabolcs Matefy

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Sep 12, 2012, 4:49:50 AM9/12/12
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Hehe, I started with 3D Studio r4 (Vesa drivers?:) ), then jumpen on Max, and was a fanatic max user until I met Lightwave...then I was a fanatic LW user until I met Softimage. Now I use mostly Softimage, a bit of Max, and I am quite familiar with Maya...but...my favourite is ZBrush...:D

Rob Chapman

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Sep 12, 2012, 5:29:06 AM9/12/12
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wait, Maurice,  

you hired a company that used Max & Maya animators to evaluate Softimage for its benefits to them? then based your entire strategy on this? what about benefits to the existing Softimage user basel! this is the problem we have you fool don't you see it?! 

pardon the french, calling the head of AD marketing for M & E a fool is considerably politer than the choice of words I would like to use.

even more incensed now.






> Andreas Byström

Stefan Andersson

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Sep 12, 2012, 5:46:46 AM9/12/12
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Rob, I'll quote myself and you'll see the connection

"" I remember when Discreet Logic was bought. Funny thing happened...
the Logic went away. """

And that affected all departments I guess :)

-stefan
>> > Andreas Bystr�m
>> > Lighting TD - Weta Digital
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> stefan andersson - digital janitor - http://sanders3d.wordpress.com
>>
>



Rob Chapman

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Sep 12, 2012, 5:54:47 AM9/12/12
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this is not humour its a tragedy

>> > Andreas Byström

olivier jeannel

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Sep 12, 2012, 6:59:16 AM9/12/12
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Hello Maurice,

"I know Autodesk Marketing is often hard to fathom" Then you (AD) have a serious comunication problem.
The way AD advertise on SI just creates a panic climate. I'm not sure this will increase the sells.
All your ways of communicating on SI looks like you're going to interrupt it (Less visibility, minimizing it's capabilities, proposing it as a third party software, firing off some of its "iconic" developers).

SI is not half package. It's complete. It's scalable and self sufficient.

My 2 euro cents

Sebastian Kowalski

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Sep 12, 2012, 7:30:13 AM9/12/12
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+1
thats exactly how i feel right now, having a serious look into Houdini.

best
sebastian

Sajjad Amjad

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Sep 12, 2012, 7:46:38 AM9/12/12
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Hi Maurice,

"I know Autodesk Marketing is often hard to fathom - heck it is for us too..."

You mentioned that M&E isn't ADs biggest market, which is fine. However, it's troubling to hear that the head of marketing for M&E finds it hard to understand what the general AD marketing trend is. If the vision isn't crisp at the top, the confusion in the user-base should come as no surprise. It's fine to hear something like this from product specialists or developers but to hear it from a guy at the top says a lot.

I've invested more than a decade in Softimage (in production + SDK development). No matter how noble ADs decisions may be, my perception of recent events has drained all confidence in AD and in expecting Softimage to be a future 3D tour de force. I have been learning Houdini for some time now; dropped my Softimage subscription this year. For me, when looking at out-of-the-box functionality, Houdini ticks more boxes than any comparable AD product.

Regards,
Sajjad

Graham Bell

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Sep 12, 2012, 8:08:32 AM9/12/12
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I think what Maurice was saying was that, we wanted to know what Max & Maya people thought or perceived the value was of having Mobu, Mudbox and Softimage in their studio/pipeline, in the context of buying and using Suites. The company (to the best of my knowledge) is an independent research company, which means the data is fair and unbiased.

Now the thing is, Softimage isn’t just a particles package, we know it’s a full 3D app, it can match Maya and Max on an equal footing, you know it, I know, we know it. But to a fully established Maya/Max studio, strange as it might seem, they perhaps don’t know that, or maybe not full story. Some people have already mentioned about some people’s perception of Softimage(XSI) and wondering if it was still going. And again as people have mentioned, it’s about the perception and showing its worth. They need to see the value, and from the data/survey Maurice mentions (whether you like it or not) seems to suggest that those Maya/Max users thought particles was benefit of having Softimage.

Stepping back for a moment, suppose we spin this around, as someone mentioned about the Softimage Suite. Suppose we commissioned the same survey but instead canvassed Softimage users on the benefit of having Mobu, Mudbox, but more importantly Maya and/or Max in their studio/pipeline. What would the perceived value be, I wonder?

I’m not saying I completely agree with our marketing strategy or the survey, but on balance I can see the reasoning and a method to the madness. From my view, all I know is that, I need to do all I can to show Softimage in the light it deserves.


G

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Rob Chapman
Sent: 12 September 2012 10:29
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
> On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 8:19 PM, Stefan Andersson <sand...@gmail.com<mailto:sand...@gmail.com>>
winmail.dat

Graham Bell

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Sep 12, 2012, 8:15:48 AM9/12/12
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Another reply, but more about FR....

Raffaele, I totally agree about Face Robot and I don't know why we appeared to ease off pushing it. But I would like to step it up going forward.
Pre-Autodesk, Face Robot always appeared to be out best kept secret and now at Autodesk, it many ways, it still is. I still come across people, even now, who think that until last year it cost 100k!

I believe though, that there is still value in FR, more than people might think, and literally every person I have ever showed it too, liked it and got it.

G


From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Raffaele Fragapane
Sent: 12 September 2012 01:40
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: In case you missed it..

Fire the company that did that study then ;) because every other person in the middle end of competence that's never used XSI seems at least curious about facerobot, and not so much about "particles", although ICE these days is of course one of the most positively linked thoughs when Soft is mentioned.

While FR isn't quite as polished and complete as it should be, there's a big chunk of A market that would see value in it, especially since there's no alternative to it and it's less complicated than briding FX pipelines.

It seemed for a while that was being pushed, but I imagine that, like in most other regards it seems, the character and animation markets are already fully cornered anyway, so AD probably doesn't see much benefit in rippling the waters in that pond.

Again, this is my perception of things, I'm sure everything looks differently internally. Maybe there is a big plan internally, but from where I sit my arse, it looks like everything is turned on its head every few months.

Again, you pitching in candidly is sincerely appreciated, at least by me.
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:29 AM, Maurice Patel <mauric...@autodesk.com<mailto:mauric...@autodesk.com>> wrote:
I don't disagree at all. But dealing with the realities of how things actually work versus how they should work is part of our day to day. We play the cards we are dealt and push for change in ways we feel can succeed. However, there is that saying from Bacon. If the mountain....
But to be clear, we did not sample the user base to get the diagram. The consulting company paid professionals to execute a productivity study that was published separately last year. The diagram is from that.
Whether what we are doing is being elegantly done or not, Autodesk, across its industries,is trying to alter public perception: to move away from the notion of hero products that do everything to a suite of products that provide a best-in-class workflow to (eventually) a set of cloud services that offer you exactly what you need when and where you need it and for as long as you need it. This is a bit simplistic and Utopian but i am typing on a mobile device now. it is however at the heart of Autodesk's strategy. Where each product and industry is in relation to this strategy, as well as its velocity in terms of getting there, is highly variable and it is certainly not going to happen overnight. Dealing with the reality of what we have today in relation to this and in relation to what customers need to do to run their businesses now brings me back to the start of my response :)



winmail.dat

Rob Chapman

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Sep 12, 2012, 8:17:29 AM9/12/12
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so basically, the existing Softimage user base can jsut sod off!

Stefan Kubicek

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Sep 12, 2012, 8:22:10 AM9/12/12
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I can't regret having learned Softimage by any means. I've been using Maya for years, and Softimage a lot shorter, but I can say I'm a lot more productive in Soft than I ever was in Maya. As long as it stays that way I'm going to use it, and given the speed at which Maya is being developed and improved with features here and there that Max and Soft had since version 1.0 (I'm talking about usability improvements) or issues solved that Soft never had, it's probably going to take another three to five years until it reaches the same level of usability and ease of use, let alone surpassing it, and even that only if Softimage's development goes down to zero. In other words: I can't regret transitioning from Max/Maya to Softimage, it's been the most rewarding and fun experience in my career (and the most frustrating whenever it comes to discussions with people who know shit about it and don't even want to know more than that), and I'm not going to adopt or revert to an inferior p!
roduct
just because lot's of other people have, or don't even know they have.

Should Softimage ever be discontinued or fall behind the others it might be time to move on to whatever better product the market offers at that time, whether that will be Maya 2018, Blender 4.5, Modo 901, Houdini 17 or Cinema4D 2020 I don't care, there will be enough time to adopt it gradually.

Stefan

PS: And Stefan, you don't want to learn MEL, seriously!
-------------------------------------------
Stefan Kubicek Co-founder
-------------------------------------------
keyvis digital imagery
Wehrgasse 9 - Grï¿œner Hof
1050 Vienna Austria
Phone: +43/699/12614231
--- www.keyvis.at ste...@keyvis.at ---
-- This email and its attachments are
--confidential and for the recipient only--

Graham Bell

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Sep 12, 2012, 8:39:35 AM9/12/12
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No, I never said that and I don’t see what I said even remotely suggested that.
It’s the context, as Maurice put it – “The specific purpose of the campaign is to encourage 3ds max and Maya users to buy Suites”


From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Rob Chapman
Sent: 12 September 2012 13:17
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: In case you missed it..

so basically, the existing Softimage user base can jsut sod off!
On 12 September 2012 13:08, Graham Bell <Graha...@autodesk.com<mailto:Graha...@autodesk.com>> wrote:
I think what Maurice was saying was that, we wanted to know what Max & Maya people thought or perceived the value was of having Mobu, Mudbox and Softimage in their studio/pipeline, in the context of buying and using Suites. The company (to the best of my knowledge) is an independent research company, which means the data is fair and unbiased.

Now the thing is, Softimage isn’t just a particles package, we know it’s a full 3D app, it can match Maya and Max on an equal footing, you know it, I know, we know it. But to a fully established Maya/Max studio, strange as it might seem, they perhaps don’t know that, or maybe not full story. Some people have already mentioned about some people’s perception of Softimage(XSI) and wondering if it was still going. And again as people have mentioned, it’s about the perception and showing its worth. They need to see the value, and from the data/survey Maurice mentions (whether you like it or not) seems to suggest that those Maya/Max users thought particles was benefit of having Softimage.

Stepping back for a moment, suppose we spin this around, as someone mentioned about the Softimage Suite. Suppose we commissioned the same survey but instead canvassed Softimage users on the benefit of having Mobu, Mudbox, but more importantly Maya and/or Max in their studio/pipeline. What would the perceived value be, I wonder?

I’m not saying I completely agree with our marketing strategy or the survey, but on balance I can see the reasoning and a method to the madness. From my view, all I know is that, I need to do all I can to show Softimage in the light it deserves.


G

> On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 8:19 PM, Stefan Andersson <sand...@gmail.com<mailto:sand...@gmail.com><mailto:sand...@gmail.com<mailto:sand...@gmail.com>>>
winmail.dat

Eugen Sares

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Sep 12, 2012, 8:43:01 AM9/12/12
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Mr. Patel,
what I do not understand: how could it hurt sales when Softimage is sold
eye height with max and Maya?
Pricewise, Softimage has been put on the same level with max and Maya...
I bet suddenly the same marketing people were clever enough to see a
cheap Softimage as a potential threat to the other packages.
You own all three. Loose one seat of Maya or max, and most probably gain
one for Softimage. That's all that can happen.
Aks people who know all three packages which one is, all in all, most
artist-friendly and productive (if that counts anything anymore).
The thought of having to use max or Maya again gives me this ugly gut
feeling... before that, I'd opt for Houdini, Modo, or maybe some open
source alternative.

There may be a selling point in max/Maya bundled with Softimage, I don't
doubt that. Continue with it, it's better than nothing.
But what's so bloody embarrassing is that AD omits to properly put
Softimage out on in the stage light, side by side with the other
packages, to give it a fair chance to get chosen among the three,
especially by newcomers.

Bit of a Cinderella story, where she is mistreated in favor of her ugly
nasty siblings...

Eric Thivierge

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Sep 12, 2012, 8:44:23 AM9/12/12
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I think what Maurice was saying was that, we wanted to know what Max & Maya people thought or perceived the value was of having Mobu, Mudbox and Softimage in their studio/pipeline, in the context of buying and using Suites. The company (to the best of my knowledge) is an independent research company, which means the data is fair and unbiased.

What does the perception give you? Are you hoping they buy products on what they perceive to be good at something or something the know definitively will help them. Its like the littlest effort to get them interested instead of barraging them with all of the cool features. Honestly, take a Mark Schoennagel approach to marketing. Why wouldn't a studio want to know about all of the killer advantages of having both apps than just 1? They don't know what they are looking at when looking around themselves.
 
... it’s about the perception and showing its worth. They need to see the value, and from the data/survey Maurice mentions (whether you like it or not) seems to suggest that those Maya/Max users thought particles was benefit of having Softimage.

Again unless we saw how this whole survey thing was orchestrated, I'm assuming that they plopped a few Max users in front of Softimage and said, "Hey, click a few buttons and see what you can do." Was there any consultation with anyone from the Softimage product specialists, evangelists, devs, or users? Were they shown videos / demos of the whole product or just some of the other stock stuff that comes with the install?
 
Stepping back for a moment, suppose we spin this around, as someone mentioned about the Softimage Suite. Suppose we commissioned the same survey but instead canvassed Softimage users on the benefit of having Mobu, Mudbox, but more importantly Maya and/or Max in their studio/pipeline. What would the perceived value be, I wonder?

I don't know could you send some people over who have used both in production to give me and educated demo / overview of the areas each are weak and where the other may excel to help fill the gaps in my pipeline?

Graham I hope you know I'm not trying to pick on you or pick your statements apart. I'm just trying to illustrate the arguments one may have of this whole thing...

- Eric T.


Eric Thivierge

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Sep 12, 2012, 8:49:13 AM9/12/12
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Last thought on this whole thing and then I'm grabbing some pop corn to see how the rest rolls out.

Maurice, it seems that the marketing is only worried about new customers and existing Max and Maya customers. Isn't it also important to market to your current customers as well?

Rob Chapman

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Sep 12, 2012, 8:52:41 AM9/12/12
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never mind Bellsey, you couldn't appreciate the irony of Mr Mayalicious being the Softimage PM either.  Its pretty damn obvious that AD sees Softimage as something for its Maya & Max users and not something for the Softimage users.

Graham Bell

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Sep 12, 2012, 9:08:30 AM9/12/12
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Eric, I agree and I'm also with Mark in that it's better to show as much as possible. Often though particles (ICE) is the hook, but I'm not a 'spray & pray' man when it comes to demos and features, I prefer to deal with specific problems and pipeline requirements. Incidentally no one has ever told/ordered me to only show particles in a Softimage context.

G

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Eric Thivierge
Sent: 12 September 2012 13:44
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: In case you missed it..

winmail.dat

olivier jeannel

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Sep 12, 2012, 9:17:30 AM9/12/12
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I was about to say the same thing.


Le 12/09/2012 14:49, Eric Thivierge a �crit :

Kiril Aronofski

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Sep 12, 2012, 9:18:30 AM9/12/12
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The mentioned (eventual) move to the cloud leads me to believe this max/maya suite push is intended to, among other things, transition Softimage users over to those packages, which is pretty distasteful considering Autodesk representatives have repeated the reversed case would be offensive to the users and outright wrong!

Count me into the group looking desperately for something non-Autodesk with a specific clause it will never be sold to them.
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