Ukelele 3.2.1 is out

[John Brownie]

I've solved (I believe) the issues with the warning about an insecure
update. Running Ukelele 3.2.0 and checking for updates will still say
that it is an insecure update, but this should then be fixed once you
install version 3.2.1. This is the only change from version 3.2.0.

As usual, available via Software Update or at
http://scripts.sil.org/ukelele.
--
John Brownie
In Finland on furlough from SIL Papua New Guinea

[Attila B]

Hi!

I'm Attila, I'm  Hungarian and bought a 2016 mac pro in the US and I have changed the keyboard layout with ukulele (copy to the right folder, restart...) but after that the command button with its functions doesn't work...

With the original hungarian and US keyboard it is working but with the modified ukulele keyboard not, but I have changed just one button?

Can you help me?

thx

[Sorin Paliga]

Could you please give some details? What have you changed? What key(s)?

Yes, as far as I am aware of, Hungarian misses one char on US physical keyboard, I guess you have problems with í and 0 [zero], right? The same if you choose Hungarian QWERTY. Are these the ones you have changed? If yes, how?

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[Sorin Paliga]

Put the keylayout here so we may have a look at it. Basically, if you make a copy of the original, make one or more changes, reinstall it (how did you reinstall it? did you change the initial name and id?), restart, it should work. I guess there is a conflict between the original and the new keylayout, if you missed something, e.g. changing the name and ID.

On 15 Jan 2017, at 13:24, Attila B <attila...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Attila B]

exactly, I have problem with í and 0 and I changed just this, 

deleted í and make its place the zero.

than I followed the instructions saved as "magyar.kedboardlayout" format to the documents folder 

than copied to the library/keyboard layout folder.

And that's all. open keyboard pref and added this new keyboard but there was 2 same hungarian keyboard without the name as I saved but choose one and restart.

and the command button does't work and the touchbar also doesn't work in safari :(

[Sorin Paliga]

I knew it, you have problems with í and 0 [zero]. My suggestion is:

- Delete your newly created keylayout from /Library/Keyboard Layouts

– Activate Hungarian, the one included in the system;

– Open it in UKELELE with ‘Open from current input source’.

– Save it under a different name, e.g. on the desktop

– Make the changes

– Modify its internal name under Keyboard/Set keyboard name and script, put, say, Magyar Attila, let Central European or put Unicode, it does not matter very much, when ready save

– Make a copy of it, and move it to /Library/Keyboard Layouts, and log out, and log in again (sometimes it does not work directly)

– go to System Preferences/Keyboard, and activate it, it should work now

[Attila B]

yes now it is working ;)

thx

[Sorin Paliga]

Ez az!

[Sorin Paliga]

macOS had problems with 2 keylayouts, when a US physical keyboard was used (the one lacking the key left to Y or Z): Hungarian and Romanian. I reported the issue to Apple and, after 2 years, they solved the issue for Romanian (Apple style), but not for Hungarian, even if this is very simple. The solution would be to insist on this issue, perhaps as a group of macusers in Hungary.

[Attila B]

hm it is, but just if the hungarians buy a US mac :)

[Gé van Gasteren]

Sorin, great that you recognized what was going on!

Do you know if there is a similar problem with Hungarian in Windows?

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[Tom Gewecke]

On Jan 15, 2017, at 8:45 AM, Gé van Gasteren <gevang...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sorin, great that you recognized what was going on!

Do you know if there is a similar problem with Hungarian in Windows?

I think Windows normally has a separate Hungarian layout available for 101 key (ansi) us keyboards, but have not been able to check it specifically.

[Sorin Paliga]

Yes, of course, but this is a quite frequent case. I do not know how frequent in Hungary, but it is frequent enough in Romania. In a given moment, I do not remember when, they finally put șȘ and î Î at one level, and the other char at option/alt level, but this took them years to discover.

It is true, Apple physical keyboards sold in Europe are ISO extended, i.e. with that extra key left to Z/Y, but people buying an Apple in US have problems. 

[Sorin Paliga]

I have no idea, because I am not a Windows user. I think it is not difficult to find a PC running Windows, at least from Vista onwards, and see how is Hungarian keylayout there. 

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[Gé van Gasteren]

OK, I’ll have a look.
The thought I had was that maybe, one could make a Mac layout "inspired by" the Windows layout for ANSI and make it available somewhere.

On 15 January 2017 at 21:19, Sorin Paliga <sorin....@gmail.com> wrote:

I have no idea, because I am not a Windows user. I think it is not difficult to find a PC running Windows, at least from Vista onwards, and see how is Hungarian keylayout there. 

On 15 Jan 2017, at 18:18, Tom Gewecke <thge...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Jan 15, 2017, at 8:45 AM, Gé van Gasteren <gevang...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sorin, great that you recognized what was going on!

Do you know if there is a similar problem with Hungarian in Windows?

I think Windows normally has a separate Hungarian layout available for 101 key (ansi) us keyboards, but have not been able to check it specifically.

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[Sorin Paliga]

Perhaps things are not identical. I do not know how PC physical keyboards are sold in Hungary, but in Romania most of them are U.S. physical keyboards, even if—theoretically—they should be ISO extended, with that key. These are rare, I guess. Apple is the only company, which regularly sells ISO extended physical keyboards all over Europe. 

This is why a good keyboard layouts should contain the chars on the key left to 1 duplicated somewhere. In my keylayouts, they are duplicated on option-Q for Romanian, because there are the quotation marks „...”, mnemotechnical opt-Q and opt-shift-Q. § is also duplicated under opt-P. 

In windows, the behaviour is yet different, so I guess this problem does not occur with either Romanian or Hungarian.

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[Tom Gewecke]

On Jan 15, 2017, at 1:59 PM, Gé van Gasteren <gevang...@gmail.com> wrote:

OK, I’ll have a look.
The thought I had was that maybe, one could make a Mac layout "inspired by" the Windows layout for ANSI and make it available somewhere.

You can see the Hungarian and Hungarian 101 layouts at

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/globalization/mt644793.aspx

[Sorin Paliga]

Windows style is to repeat í on the key left to Y/Z and left to 1. I do not see zero on that layout, I guess it is somewhere at the ctrl level.

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[Gé van Gasteren]

Thanks for the link, Tom, I had forgotten about that page.
So according to that Microsoft page, on the 101-key layout, Windows has copied the í to the top left key (as Sorin wrote) and put the zero on AltGr + that same key.

In all the hubbub we forgot to ask Attila what change he made...
Because on the Mac, this issue is actually addressed, just slightly differently than in Windows:
The zero is on Option + ö – on Hungarian keyboards – which for US-style hardware keyboards would be written Option + 0 (zero).
Both the QWERTY and QWERTZ layout have this.

Wait, stop. This is spooky. While I was writing the above, I just checked again, and now the Mac QWERTZ layout doesn’t have a key combination for the zero, and the Mac QWERTY layout has it on Option + ` which in other words is Option + the top left key, just like the Windows layout for 101-key keyboards.
Am I starting to see things???

I'm using a slightly quirky Windows ISO-keyboard – that may be a factor in this mystery.

When I bring up the Keyboard Viewer (in El Capitán) it always shows a map for an extended 101-key (sic!) keyboard, then switches to a laptop keyboard view (also 101-key) as soon as I type any key. The actual hardware keyboard is something between the two, with a number pad, but also a fn key (bottom left) and the arrow keys tucked underneath the right Shift key.

Anyway, maybe we should close this hijacked link or start a new one...

Is it possible for a moderator to copy all but the first post to a new topic "Hungarian 101-key troubles" ?

On 16 January 2017 at 08:32, Sorin Paliga <sorin....@gmail.com> wrote:

Windows style is to repeat í on the key left to Y/Z and left to 1. I do not see zero on that layout, I guess it is somewhere at the ctrl level.

On 16 Jan 2017, at 07:16, Tom Gewecke <thge...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Jan 15, 2017, at 1:59 PM, Gé van Gasteren <gevang...@gmail.com> wrote:

OK, I’ll have a look.
The thought I had was that maybe, one could make a Mac layout "inspired by" the Windows layout for ANSI and make it available somewhere.

You can see the Hungarian and Hungarian 101 layouts at

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/globalization/mt644793.aspx

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[Sorin Paliga]

What MS did is logical and compliant with their philosophy regarding the relation physical keyboard ~ keylayout. Apple did the same for Romanian, after I insisted on this several years ago, and also noted the similar inconsistency for Hungarian. They solved the issue for Romanian, but not for Hungarian, I cannot figure why. I do not remember when this change finally occurred, perhaps in Lion, I do not have time to check.

The problem with Romanian (Apple keylayout) referred to î (left to Z/Y) and ș (left to 1); on a US physical keyboard, ș vanished, as the philosophy is to move the key left to Z/Y to the one left to 1. If the char initially here is not duplicated somewhere, it simply vanished, as it did BEFORE the small change I insisted upon. 

As you see, the situation is similar with Hungarian (Apple): í is on the key left to Z/Y, and 0 [zero] on the key left to 1. If the key left to Z/Y is absent, í is moved to the key left to 1, and 0 [zero] vanishes. It should be duplicated at the level option-í, as Apple did with Romanian î and ș. I do not know whether this is the best solution, but this seems the one adopted by MS. The Hungarian users should have their word here, but perhaps it would be easier to follow MS style, and place zero at the level option í, i.e. the key left to 1 on the US physical keyboard, it will be at the level option ` = Hung. Í on the ISO keyboard, and again on the key left to 1, therefore duplicated. It does not matter very much, but this is the only solution to solve this simple issue. 

There are other inconsistent solution offered by Apple by other key layouts, U.S. included, e.g. chars repeating quite chaotically at option level in non-mnemotechnical positions: Ω = opt-Z, ∫ = opt-b etc. 

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[Geke]

Hi Sorin,

I’m not sure what you mean here: "They (Apple) solved the issue for Romanian, but not for Hungarian, I cannot figure why."
As I wrote, both MacOS layouts, qwerty and qwertz, have copied the í to the key left of the 1 and moved the zero that was there before to that same key’s Option level.
At least, that’s the situation in El Capitán.

Maybe the logic for using Option-Z for the Ω was that Z is the last letter in the Latin alphabet. At least that’s how I remember its place.

[Sorin Paliga]

Hm... Let’s put it otherwise: where is zero in the case of the Hungarian (Apple) keylayout, if a US physical keyboard is used? I do not see it. 

[Gé van Gasteren]

It’s on Option ` which is the top left key on the keyboard.
This is the case in both the QWERTY and QWERTZ layouts, which is different from Windows, which has a "traditional" layout with zero top left and QWERTZ layout and a "101-key" layout with í top left, zero on AltGr-top left and QWERTY layout – according to that MS page all the time. I still feel I should check on an actual PC.

On 16 January 2017 at 16:21, Sorin Paliga <sorin....@gmail.com> wrote:

Hm... Let’s put it otherwise: where is zero in the case of the Hungarian (Apple) keylayout, if a US physical keyboard is used? I do not see it. 

On 16 Jan 2017, at 16:57, Geke <gevang...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Sorin,

I’m not sure what you mean here: "They (Apple) solved the issue for Romanian, but not for Hungarian, I cannot figure why."
As I wrote, both MacOS layouts, qwerty and qwertz, have copied the í to the key left of the 1 and moved the zero that was there before to that same key’s Option level.
At least, that’s the situation in El Capitán.

Maybe the logic for using Option-Z for the Ω was that Z is the last letter in the Latin alphabet. At least that’s how I remember its place.

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[Sorin Paliga]

Yes, of course, I will do that too, just for the sake of curiosity. I think MS solved this issue from the beginning. 

It is true that Apple sells ISO extended physical keyboards all over Europe, but they should also consider the quite frequent case when some people purchase their macs in U.S., they lack one key,  nevertheless all the chars of the keylayouts in the system should be available.

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[Tom Gewecke]

On Jan 16, 2017, at 9:07 AM, Gé van Gasteren <gevang...@gmail.com> wrote:

It’s on Option ` which is the top left key on the keyboard.
This is the case in both the QWERTY and QWERTZ layouts

On my el capitan, that only works on the qwerty layout, the qwertz layout has |.  Perhaps this was fixed in Sierra...

[Sorin Paliga]

O, yes, the Hungarian QWERTY version has solved the issue! The Apple guys forgot to change it for QWERTZ! Or just assumed that they should not modify it??!! 

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[Gé van Gasteren]

Another weird "event". I’m starting to doubt my perception, but I really had both the qwerty and qwertz layouts produce zero by typing Option-`

Anyway: now, with the standard Hungarian layout in El Capitán, I get a zero by pressing the key to the right of the left Shift key. It is a known phenomenon that sometimes that key and the key top left on the keyboard swap places...

Assuming that this is now the established behavior, my guess at the logic behind this is that both Microsoft and Apple wanted to offer one more traditional layout (qwertz) and one more suited for internationally influenced use, including catering for 101-key keyboards (qwerty).

On 16 January 2017 at 20:04, Sorin Paliga <sorin....@gmail.com> wrote:

O, yes, the Hungarian QWERTY version has solved the issue! The Apple guys forgot to change it for QWERTZ! Or just assumed that they should not modify it??!! 

On 16 Jan 2017, at 20:50, Tom Gewecke <thge...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Jan 16, 2017, at 9:07 AM, Gé van Gasteren <gevang...@gmail.com> wrote:

It’s on Option ` which is the top left key on the keyboard.
This is the case in both the QWERTY and QWERTZ layouts

On my el capitan, that only works on the qwerty layout, the qwertz layout has |.  Perhaps this was fixed in Sierra...

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[Cole Orton]

Can the "fn" key on an Apple Magic Keyboard be remapped? If so, how? Thanks! 

[Geke]

Hi Cole,

I’m starting a new thread for you about this topic.
I hope you get the message from that new post.