Key sequence not working in InDesign CC 2017

[fqfon...@gmail.com]

Hello,

I have created a custom keyboard layout for Arabic language.

Which has a sequence of 3 letters assigned to Shift+C.

The sequence works perfectly in MS Word, but I am unable to type the sequence in InDesign CC 2017. Only the first letter gets typed.

Please suggest a solution.

Thanks and regards.

[Sorin Paliga]

InDesign does not seemingly support right-to-left scripts. What happens if you use the Arabic or Hebrew keylayouts installed with the system? This is the first test you should do. 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ukelele Users" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ukelele-user...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to ukelel...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/ukelele-users.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Gé van Gasteren]

Maybe the World-ready composer doesn’t support this keyboard-layout-feature of entering multiple letters? Just a guess.

See what happens when you switch to the "Adobe standard composer". That one doesn’t support Arabic script, I think, but it’s just to check what’s causing the problem. If it’s the composer, I think there’s nothing you can do except complain to Adobe…

You might be able to create a work-around using the Autocorrect feature (add an entry, or entries, for the language you’re using). I know, that’s not a real solution, but what to do.

On 9 October 2017 at 13:57, Sorin Paliga <sorin....@gmail.com> wrote:

InDesign does not seemingly support right-to-left scripts. What happens if you use the Arabic or Hebrew keylayouts installed with the system? This is the first test you should do. 

On 9 Oct 2017, at 12:29, fqfon...@gmail.com wrote:

Hello,

I have created a custom keyboard layout for Arabic language.

Which has a sequence of 3 letters assigned to Shift+C.

The sequence works perfectly in MS Word, but I am unable to type the sequence in InDesign CC 2017. Only the first letter gets typed.

Please suggest a solution.

Thanks and regards.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ukelele Users" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ukelele-users+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to ukelel...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/ukelele-users.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ukelele Users" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ukelele-users+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Tom Gewecke]

On Oct 9, 2017, at 2:29 AM, fqfon...@gmail.com wrote:

I have created a custom keyboard layout for Arabic language.

Which has a sequence of 3 letters assigned to Shift+C.

The sequence works perfectly in MS Word, but I am unable to type the sequence in InDesign CC 2017. Only the first letter gets typed.

What font are you using?  I think Adobe provides its own for best results with its apps.

[fqfon...@gmail.com]

Thanks for the reply.

I tried all the composers, same problem in all of them.

Many thanks for suggesting AutoCorrect workaround. It is hacky but gets the job done for now.

Thanks and regards.

On Monday, October 9, 2017 at 6:02:42 PM UTC+5:30, Geke wrote:

Maybe the World-ready composer doesn’t support this keyboard-layout-feature of entering multiple letters? Just a guess.

See what happens when you switch to the "Adobe standard composer". That one doesn’t support Arabic script, I think, but it’s just to check what’s causing the problem. If it’s the composer, I think there’s nothing you can do except complain to Adobe…

You might be able to create a work-around using the Autocorrect feature (add an entry, or entries, for the language you’re using). I know, that’s not a real solution, but what to do.

On 9 October 2017 at 13:57, Sorin Paliga <sorin....@gmail.com> wrote:

InDesign does not seemingly support right-to-left scripts. What happens if you use the Arabic or Hebrew keylayouts installed with the system? This is the first test you should do. 

On 9 Oct 2017, at 12:29, fqfon...@gmail.com wrote:

Hello,

I have created a custom keyboard layout for Arabic language.

Which has a sequence of 3 letters assigned to Shift+C.

The sequence works perfectly in MS Word, but I am unable to type the sequence in InDesign CC 2017. Only the first letter gets typed.

Please suggest a solution.

Thanks and regards.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ukelele Users" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ukelele-user...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to ukelel...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/ukelele-users.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ukelele Users" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ukelele-user...@googlegroups.com.

[Geke]

1. Can you upload the keyboard layout so I can try it in CS6?

2. Also please answer Tom’s question. I have no idea how a font could cause this problem, but he’s an expert and knows what he’s doing :)

[fqfon...@gmail.com]

Same problem with all the fonts.

[Sorin Paliga]

Have you tested the Apple keyboard layouts installed with the system? That is why I suggested several days ago. 

On 13 Oct 2017, at 09:08, fqfon...@gmail.com wrote:

Same problem with all the fonts.

What font are you using?  I think Adobe provides its own for best results with its apps.

[fqfon...@gmail.com]

Yes, i had tried the Apple keyboard layouts too.

[Sorin Paliga]

Yes, i had tried the Apple keyboard layouts too.

And? IYou make us/me guess, that it did not work either, right? If so, the problem is with the app., not the keylayout.

[Gé van Gasteren]

Sorin, or anyone, do you know of any Apple keyboard layouts which include at least one key that produces a character sequence? That means, one keypress produces two, three, or more characters?

On 14 October 2017 at 14:16, Sorin Paliga <sorin....@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes, i had tried the Apple keyboard layouts too.

And? IYou make us/me guess, that it did not work either, right? If so, the problem is with the app., not the keylayout.

On Friday, October 13, 2017 at 11:52:37 AM UTC+5:30, Cattus Thraex wrote:

Have you tested the Apple keyboard layouts installed with the system? That is why I suggested several days ago. 

On 13 Oct 2017, at 09:08, fqfon...@gmail.com wrote:

Same problem with all the fonts.

What font are you using?  I think Adobe provides its own for best results with its apps.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ukelele Users" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ukelele-user...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to ukelel...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/ukelele-users.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ukelele Users" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ukelele-users+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to ukelel...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/ukelele-users.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ukelele Users" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ukelele-users+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Sorin Paliga]

I have no idea, but if the issue is the same or similar with an Apple-blessed keylayout, the problem should be looked for in the app., not the keylayout. It is a guess, of course. 

As far as I know, some Apple keylayouts lead to complex ligatures. I am not conversant with RTL languages, but I once practised Korean, where certain sequences lead to specific character organisation within the text. 

[Kamal Abdali]

On Sat, Oct 14, 2017 at 9:21 AM, Gé van Gasteren <gevang...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sorin, or anyone, do you know of any Apple keyboard layouts which include at least one key that produces a character sequence? That means, one keypress produces two, three, or more characters?

…

​I've used this feature in several keyboard layouts. The Urdu-QWERTY keyboard layout ​assigns a two-character sequence (Unicode characters #x0627 #x064B) to the '=' keypress.  See https://github.com/KamalAbdali/UrduKeyboardMac. In this repository, the keylayout file (produced by Ukelele) is UrduQWERTY.keylayout, whose line 747 shows the assignment.

[Gé van Gasteren]

Thanks, Sorin, Kamal,

Sorin: Your sentence: "if the issue is the same or similar with an Apple-blessed keylayout"

To find out about that was exactly why I asked if someone knows of an Apple keyboard layout with multi-character output for at least one key – if there exist such Apple layouts, their behavior could be compared to that of the Ukelele-produced one. And if there is a difference, the problem could be with the XML layouts not being supported properly by InDesign, or something like that.

Kamal: Have you tried this your Urdu keyboard layout in InDesign, and if so, which version?

Because I’m pretty sure at this point that the problem is there.

[Kamal Abdali]

Gé, I just installed a trial version of InDesign and tried that key in a text box. InDesgn showed only the first character, not the whole character sequence. I also noticed that any diacritics that I typed showed up as a separate character rather than being placed on the previous letter. (The text I typed used the Arabic script.) 

The other word processors and graphic applications with text input that I've tried have behaved as expected. So, as you say, the problem might be InDesign's.

[Behnam]

Two points that may not be related to this problem at all but just to keep in mind:

• For InDesign (CC version) the work environment of the subscriber should be identified as Arabic environment to activate the InDesign RTL features and support. If the subscriber language environment is registered as LTR, those features won’t be activated.
• High Sierra has hardware bugs with the keyboards and input devices. The numbers keypad of my keyboard was not functioning in High Sierra and I had to return to Sierra to have it back to normal.

-behnam

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ukelele-user...@googlegroups.com.

[Sorin Paliga]

InDesign and QuarkXpress had (have?) cannot properly handle combined chars, e.g. combined diacritical marks, in general. This happened for years, I do not know whether the newer versions can handle this. 

This happens with other apps as well, e.g. the older versions of Pages, but solved in the new series, even if some other features were missing (but added in the last version). LibreOffice cannot handle combined chars either.

This is why, for me, such apps are not good, as they cannot handle texts usual in linguistics and dialectal studies. My suggestion is to test whether such word processors can handle what you need (Nisus and Mellel are a lot better at this point), and then see what can you do with these apps, as long as InD cannot solve your needs.

[Sorin Paliga]

In the previous message I deleted the initial text, and added some words in an incoherent way. Change:

InDesign and QuarkXpress had (have?) cannot properly handle combined char

to

InD and Q could not properly...

The basic idea is that one should test behaviour with several apps, so that the problem may be isolated and possibly solved. 

[Gé van Gasteren]

Thank you, Kamal, for going all the way!

Did you install the "Middle East version" of InDesign CC? (If there is such a thing – read below.) I have the feeling that might work better than the standard version. And does your Mac run on High Sierra?

Behnam: How does this "identifying the work environment as Arabic" work? I don’t use CC myself, but as I understood it, one would download a different version of InDesign CC – the "Middle East version" – to get better Arabic support.

I can compose Arabic correctly in my standard version of CS6 by using the "world-ready composer" but I’ve read that in the Middle East version, there are many more controls, like for Kashida, and more composers.

Sorin: could you give me some specific experiment with which I can test how InDesign behaves currently with "combined characters" and if there’s a difference with TextEdit?

InDesign (standard version, not Middle East version) has two "composers" built into the standard version, so I will try it with both.

[Sorin Paliga]

could you give me some specific experiment with which I can test how InDesign behaves currently with "combined characters" and if there’s a difference with TextEdit?

Yes, of course, use my ‘Academic’ keylayout, CDM’s are at the level option-D (below) and option-shift-D (above) and see what you get. 

http://www.unibuc.ro/e/prof/paliga_v_s/soft-reso/

In a good word processor, you may combine as many chars are you wish, e.g. o

Oops, I find that this works badly in High Sierra, two should be below and two above, the guys with Apple have turned it worse, as I can see! So, if you are not in High Sierra, you should see them below and above. Apple has made it bag again.

There is a newer version of this keylayout, not yet uploaded, but there are no essential changes, just some details. 

[Behnam Rassi]

On Oct 15, 2017, at 4:27 AM, Gé van Gasteren <gevang...@gmail.com> wrote:

Behnam: How does this "identifying the work environment as Arabic" work? I don’t use CC myself, but as I understood it, one would download a different version of InDesign CC – the "Middle East version" – to get better Arabic support.

I can compose Arabic correctly in my standard version of CS6 by using the "world-ready composer" but I’ve read that in the Middle East version, there are many more controls, like for Kashida, and more composers.

Umm I can’t find the interface anymore! I recall it was confusing from the beginning and not easy to access but now I don’t even find it! They may have changed the interface or I may have completely forgotten how I did it !

I’m not sure but I don’t think there is a separate ‘middle eastern’ version anymore. Those features are simply added to the existing InDesign (as a module in downloading the software or as an activation of the already dowloaded module. I don’t know). You then have an icon in the tools bar called ME Type Tool. This tool gives you RTL setup and Kashida control etc.

My understanding is that if you subscribe to CC from Israel or Egypt for example, the RTL features are activated from the beginning, based on your location. The complication is particularly for those who register from Western countries and want to have them. I have a feeling that this complication is intentional. For some reasons that only Adobe knows!

I rented InDesign for a project that I haven’t even started yet! I’m afraid I don’t have any experience with InDesign to provide you with more information.

-behnam

[Kamal Abdali]

On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 2:26 AM, Sorin Paliga <sorin....@gmail.com> wrote:

InDesign and QuarkXpress had (have?) cannot properly handle combined chars, e.g. combined diacritical marks, in general.

​

​…  ​

LibreOffice cannot handle combined chars either.

​ ​

…​

 

​

Sorin, for me LibreOffice handles combined diacritical marks very well, in fact for more fonts than does MS Word. I use my own "US Polymath" keyboards (e.g., https://github.com/KamalAbdali/PolymathKeyboardMac) but that should be immaterial to LibreOffice. Similarly LibreOffice also correctly handles ​the Arabic script diacritics which are typed after the letters that they decorate.

[Kamal Abdali]

On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 4:27 AM, Gé van Gasteren <gevang...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thank you, Kamal, for going all the way!

Did you install the "Middle East version" of InDesign CC? (If there is such a thing – read below.) I have the feeling that might work better than the standard version. And does your Mac run on High Sierra?

​…​

​Gé, the highest my old Macbook can climb is the El Capitan peak​. In  experimenting with the now uninstalled trial version of InDesign, I did choose Arabic script and tried quite a few different fonts. But I didn't even notice the choice of a "Middle Eastern" version of InDesign.

[Geke]

Hi Behnam,
I just started a separate thread on InDesign matters. Please see my post there for an Adobe page with instructions how to install full Arabic support.

[Behnam Rassi]

Thanks Geke. It is a useful information to have even for Ukelele group. I had it installed I just couldn’t remember how I did it!

-b

On Oct 15, 2017, at 11:50 AM, Geke <gevang...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Behnam,
I just started a separate thread on InDesign matters. Please see my post there for an Adobe page with instructions how to install full Arabic support.

[Sorin Paliga]

You are right, but not in High Sierra! Have you tested in H.S. too? I have the feeling Apple has worsened the text engine in H.S.

[fqfon...@gmail.com]

Thanks everyone for the active participation in this thread.

@behman: https://forums.adobe.com/external-link.jspa?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhelpx.adobe.com%2Findesign%2Fkb%2Faccess-install-hebrew-arabic-indesign-illustrator-CC.html

for a complete guide on Arabic support in CC. There is no separate ME version in CC.

And it is very clear that the problem is with InDesign CC 2017 and not with Ukelele and any keyboard layout generated by it.

Thanks again to all of you for the answers.