Not enough bandwidth on PSB multiplexes for BBC services -- the Scottish problem
J G Miller
interactive streams because of the loss of available bandwidth due
to the clearing of PSB-3 for HD, the BBC Trust has now suggested that
the method to be investigated for bringing BBC Alba on to the
terrestrial network would be to broadcast it during the evening on
bandwidth current dedicated to radio services.
From
<http://www.bbc.co.UK/bbctrust/news/press_releases/october/alba_review.shtml>
QUOTE
Part two will look at whether the channel should be made available on
Freeview. Due to cost and capacity restraints on DTT, the BBC Executive
have suggested finding room for BBC ALBA by removing the BBC's radio
stations from Freeview, in Scotland only, during BBC ALBA's broadcasting
hours. We will be considering this proposal and what option the public
would prefer.
The review will also consider whether the Gaelic zone on BBC Two Scotland
should remain.
UNQUOTE
Do the BBC radio services on PSB-1 actually use as much bandwidth as a
video stream, or would the quality of BBC Alba be strictly legovision?
The dog from that film you saw
"J G Miller" <mil...@yoyo.ORG> wrote in message news:125657...@vo.lu...
> Do the BBC radio services on PSB-1 actually use as much bandwidth as a
> video stream, or would the quality of BBC Alba be strictly legovision?
and how many scottish people actually want to watch gaelic language tv
anyway? - reminds me of when i was a kid in wales, at a young age a welsh
teacher turned up at our school - because apparently it was our culture.
i found it strange that if that was the case, how come this was the first
time i'd ever heard of it ?
--
Gareth.
that fly...... is your magic wand....
http://dsbdsb.mybrute.com
you fight better when you have a bear!
Mark Carver
> Do the BBC radio services on PSB-1 actually use as much bandwidth as a
> video stream, or would the quality of BBC Alba be strictly legovision?
BBC Radios 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1xtra, Asian, World Serv, Scotland, Nan G.
What are they each, 192k ish ? so 12 x 192 = 2.3 Mb/s, not really enough of
course, but enough for those beancounters and the incompetents at Ofcom.
--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.
Brian Gaff
radio via freeview is now quite widely used, so ditching it seems stupid in
Scotland or anywhere else.
Its the commercial crap on Freeview which needs pruning and one only needs
to look at the viewing figures, and maybe with fewer commercial stations,
the commercial area will once again have enough money from advertising to
support their output.
Brian
--
Brian Gaff - bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name may be lost.
Blind user, so no pictures please!
"J G Miller" <mil...@yoyo.ORG> wrote in message news:125657...@vo.lu...
fred
>Following the decision of BBC to remove two of the BBC Red Button
>interactive streams because of the loss of available bandwidth due
>to the clearing of PSB-3 for HD, the BBC Trust has now suggested that
>the method to be investigated for bringing BBC Alba on to the
>terrestrial network would be to broadcast it during the evening on
>bandwidth current dedicated to radio services.
>
>From
>
><http://www.bbc.co.UK/bbctrust/news/press_releases/october/alba_review.shtml>
>
>QUOTE
>
> Part two will look at whether the channel should be made available on
> Freeview. Due to cost and capacity restraints on DTT, the BBC Executive
> have suggested finding room for BBC ALBA by removing the BBC's radio
> stations from Freeview, in Scotland only, during BBC ALBA's broadcasting
> hours. We will be considering this proposal and what option the public
> would prefer.
>
> The review will also consider whether the Gaelic zone on BBC Two Scotland
> should remain.
>
>UNQUOTE
>
One of the benefits of DSO I was hoping for was that the minority
interest (Gaelic) programming would stop hijacking the mainstream
channels, apparently not.
Freeview is currently my only access to radio at home.
--
fred
BBC3, ITV2/3/4, channels going to the DOGs
Ian
<bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>Hoe lon before they lose the radio everywhere if they do this. I beelive
>radio via freeview is now quite widely used, so ditching it seems stupid in
>Scotland or anywhere else.
>Its the commercial crap on Freeview which needs pruning and one only needs
>to look at the viewing figures, and maybe with fewer commercial stations,
>the commercial area will once again have enough money from advertising to
>support their output.
>
>Brian
>
compensated by getting permission to advertise other vices, like
gambling and sexual services, and erm, lawyers.
Of course they would have to be on dedicated channels.
I think we should have channels dedicated to smoking.
Note, I would have put a smiley, but since I'm replying to Brian, I
wasn't sure that it wouldn't just be annoying.
--
Ian
Bill Wright
"Ian" <ne...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:eb40mNFR...@nospam.demon.co.uk...
> In message <PbmFm.1872$5w5...@text.news.virginmedia.com>, Brian Gaff
> <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
> sure that it wouldn't just be annoying.
I don't use smileys.
Bill
Stephen
news:PbmFm.1872$5w5...@text.news.virginmedia.com...
> Hoe lon before they lose the radio everywhere if they do this. I beelive
> radio via freeview is now quite widely used, so ditching it seems stupid
> in Scotland or anywhere else.
> Its the commercial crap on Freeview which needs pruning and one only needs
> to look at the viewing figures, and maybe with fewer commercial stations,
> the commercial area will once again have enough money from advertising to
> support their output.
What they need is more multiplexes and there should be plenty of space: on
channels 35 and 37 at every transmitter after five analogue switch off, and
many more uhf channels after they re-engineer the COM multiplexes as single
frequency networks.
It's only the three regional PSB multiplexes that need to follow anything
like the original UHF channel plan. There should be about a dozen COM
multiplexes in the other half of the available spectrum, not to mention Band
III VHF as used extensively in the US and Europe, or the stupidity of
abandoning Band I VHF: there's room for 3 more national multiplexes there.
Harry
<d...@removethisbitbtinternet.com> wrote:
>
>"J G Miller" <mil...@yoyo.ORG> wrote in message news:125657...@vo.lu...
>
>
>> Do the BBC radio services on PSB-1 actually use as much bandwidth as a
>> video stream, or would the quality of BBC Alba be strictly legovision?
>
>
>
>
>and how many scottish people actually want to watch gaelic language tv
>anyway? - reminds me of when i was a kid in wales, at a young age a welsh
>teacher turned up at our school - because apparently it was our culture.
>i found it strange that if that was the case, how come this was the first
>time i'd ever heard of it ?
>
Something I've often wondered, what power does the Welsh language
bunch hold over government? 20% ish - or less - can actually struggle
through the stuff yet they have a dedicated tv channel, radio station,
bi lingual everything on paper and those wonderful road signs. Tail
wagging the dog or what?
Brian Gaff
all sorts of things, but never for whatthe public wants from entertainment
broadcasting in any joined up way. I feel that at present its driven by who
will pay what for which, rather than what is actually wanted.
Brian
--
Brian Gaff - bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name may be lost.
Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Ian" <ne...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:eb40mNFR...@nospam.demon.co.uk...
Petert
wrote:
So what channels does Scotland have that Wales doesn't? Wales has S4C
in addition to Channel 4. If there isn't sufficient soace on the mux
for Alba it would suggest there is cannel available to Scots, but not
to the Welsh.+
--
Cheers
Peter
Owain
> So what channels does Scotland have that Wales doesn't? Wales has S4C
> in addition to Channel 4. If there isn't sufficient soace on the mux
> for Alba it would suggest there is cannel available to Scots, but not
> to the Welsh.+
We have TeleG (only broadcasts for about an hour a day) but also we
get QVC which I think they don't (or didn't) get in Wales.
Owain
Peter
I've never checked before, but the Welsh are graced with QVC on
channel 16 - so that's not it
Mark Carver
>>> We have TeleG (only broadcasts for about an hour a day) but also we
>>> get QVC which I think they don't (or didn't) get in Wales.
>>>
>>> Owain
>> I've never checked before, but the Welsh are graced with QVC on
>> channel 16 - so that's not it
No, Wales have to miss out on CITV, Ch 72.
> Scotland:
> http://www.unsatisfactorysoftware.co.uk/dtt/dtt.cgi?reg=UK.S.SCO.BHILL&by=lcn&mux=12AbCD&col=LNTMHC&type=VRDIPTSAGNE&disp=2&oair=1&prt=1
>
> "Scottish Gold" is "TBC" on Mux 2. But the mystery for me is Mux B. It
> contains the core radio stations 1-5, but in Scotland they are on Mux 2
> and so under threat from Alba. They could easily be on Mux B in Scotland
> too, from what I can see, and this problem wouldn't exist!?
I don't understand ? BBC R1-5 are on Mux B in Scotland on pre DSO'd sites, and
on Mux 1 (PSB1) on post DSO sites (namely Caldbeck, Selkirk, and their relays).
Mux B has to be cleared in post DSO areas to make way for DVB-T2/HD, so the
only space available for Alba will be on Mux/PSB 1, hence the plan to ditch
R1-5.
Dave Plowman (News)
Brian Gaff <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> Its the commercial crap on Freeview which needs pruning and one only
> needs to look at the viewing figures, and maybe with fewer commercial
> stations, the commercial area will once again have enough money from
> advertising to support their output.
You think the radio stations *on FreeView* get bigger audiences than the
'commercial' crap?
Can you provide some figures, please?
--
*Many hamsters only blink one eye at a time *
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Bill Wright
"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:7kstedF...@mid.individual.net...
> Mike Henry wrote:
> I don't understand ? BBC R1-5 are on Mux B in Scotland on pre DSO'd sites,
> and on Mux 1 (PSB1) on post DSO sites (namely Caldbeck, Selkirk, and their
> relays).
>
> Mux B has to be cleared in post DSO areas to make way for DVB-T2/HD, so
> the only space available for Alba will be on Mux/PSB 1, hence the plan to
> ditch R1-5.
To be honest Mark, I think you are probably the only person in the world who
understands all these complications. One of these days your phone will ring
and a slightly embarrassed voice will whisper, "Err, is that Mr Carver? From
uk.tech.digital-tv? I'm from OFCOM Mr Carver. Look, I hope you don't mind me
ringing you, but well, we need a bit of help if you could spare a moment.
The fact is we've kept altering things about with the transmitters and
everything, you know, just generally changing things around . . . it always
seems like a good idea at the time, but, well, the fact is, we can't quite
seem to figure out just what's what any more. We've sort of lost track, and
it's all got out of hand, quite frankly. We took on some new whizkids,
straight from university, hoping they'd be able to figure it all out, but
they just seemed to make things worse! I don't suppose you could, well, sort
things out a bit for us, could you? Get it all back to how it should be.
Then we can start to muddle it up again." (feeble laugh).
Bill
Petert
I'm going to apply for a job at Ofcom, because I cannot work out why
we can have S4C on channel 8 and all the BBC radio channels, while in
"see you jimmy" land Alba will require some or all of the BBC radio
channels to be dumped. Scotland appears to have the same number of
channels as Wales (with the exception of one that appears to broadcast
for about an hour a day) so what exactly is the problem?
I feel I undestand it all so badly I think I will apply for the CEO
post at Ofcom
--
Cheers
Peter
Mark Carver
>
> I'm going to apply for a job at Ofcom, because I cannot work out why
> we can have S4C on channel 8 and all the BBC radio channels, while in
> "see you jimmy" land Alba will require some or all of the BBC radio
> channels to be dumped. Scotland appears to have the same number of
> channels as Wales (with the exception of one that appears to broadcast
> for about an hour a day) so what exactly is the problem?
In Wales, CITV seems to have been ditched to make room for S4C on Mux 2.
There's no technical reason why that can't happen in Scotland to make
room for Alba. In fact as Alba is an evening only service (?), and CITV
is a daytime service (I think ?) why not timeshare, unless CITV on Mux 2
is already timesharing with someone else ?
Anyway, Ofcom had made such a hash of things, coupled with the timebomb
of overlapping transmitter coverage after DSO in some areas, boxes not
conforming to specs, and soring channels in the wrong place, or hiding
them away on 800+, people having ITV 3 and 4 snatched away, not enough
bandwidth to provide decent SD pictures, etc, etc, the whole platform is
doomed IMHO.
Ray Pearce
news:f_uFm.125951$ly7....@newsfe14.ams2...
>
> What they need is more multiplexes and there should be plenty of space: on
> channels 35 and 37 at every transmitter after five analogue switch off,
> and many more uhf channels after they re-engineer the COM multiplexes as
> single frequency networks.
Five analogue switch off won't free any space from several of the large
transmitters down here in the south east. Channel five never quite made it
to such far flung transmitters as Dover, Rowridge and Hethfield.
Bill Wright
"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> Petert wrote:
> Anyway, Ofcom had made such a hash of things, coupled with the timebomb of
> overlapping transmitter coverage after DSO in some areas, boxes not
> conforming to specs, and soring channels in the wrong place, or hiding
> them away on 800+, people having ITV 3 and 4 snatched away, not enough
> bandwidth to provide decent SD pictures, etc, etc, the whole platform is
> doomed IMHO.
>
Bill
Stephen
news:cvhGm.2$d2...@newreader.ukcore.bt.net...
Could be a problem on the South coast. All the more reason to start using
VHF. Don't forget there's also Channel 36 which can be used at every
transmitter (possibly including those 3) after analogue switch off because
the requirement to keep it clear for analogue VHS machines and first
generation gaming consoles has ceased.
Bill Wright
> "Ray Pearce" <ray.p...@nospam.com> wrote in message Could be a problem
> there's also Channel 36 which can be used at every transmitter (possibly
> including those 3) after analogue switch off because the requirement to
> keep it clear for analogue VHS machines and first generation gaming
> consoles has ceased.
>
do.
Bill
Mark Carver
> In <7kstedF...@mid.individual.net>, Mark Carver
>> Mux B has to be cleared in post DSO areas to make way for DVB-T2/HD, so the
>> only space available for Alba will be on Mux/PSB 1, hence the plan to ditch
>> R1-5.
>
> Yes but for this Scottish link, it's a pre-DSO area with apparently a
> post-DSO configuration of where the radio stations are?!
> http://www.unsatisfactorysoftware.co.uk/dtt/dtt.cgi?reg=UK.S.SCO.BHILL&by=mux&mux=12AbCD&col=LNTMHC&grp=tl&type=VRDIPTSAGNE&disp=2&oair=1
So it does ! That must be speculative info on there, AFAIK the BBC have not
farmed out their radio stations to D3&4 anywhere, I'm seeing a man from Arqiva
today, I'll confirm that with him. They used to be carried on Mux A many years
ago, but other than that they've always been 'in house' on Mux B or post DSO
Mux 1.
Jim Lesurf
<mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Petert wrote:
> >
> > I'm going to apply for a job at Ofcom, because I cannot work out why
> > we can have S4C on channel 8 and all the BBC radio channels, while in
> > "see you jimmy" land Alba will require some or all of the BBC radio
> > channels to be dumped. Scotland appears to have the same number of
> > channels as Wales (with the exception of one that appears to broadcast
> > for about an hour a day) so what exactly is the problem?
> In Wales, CITV seems to have been ditched to make room for S4C on Mux 2.
> There's no technical reason why that can't happen in Scotland to make
> room for Alba. In fact as Alba is an evening only service (?), and CITV
> is a daytime service (I think ?) why not timeshare, unless CITV on Mux 2
> is already timesharing with someone else ?
I presume it is in effect already being shared with some other ITV station.
Within the remit of the BBC the equivalent would be to remove BBC3 or BBC4
as they nominally 'share' with the BBC yoof/kiddies channels. However
despite personally thinking BBC3 is a waste of space and should be dumped,
I still think such a 'solution' would be wrong in principle as well as
practice as it means denying access to an otherwise UK-wide channel for
those in Scotland for the (nominal) sake of a tiny minority mainly in a
part of the country. Might be easier to argue this than dumping all the UK
radio channels, but that doesn't mean it would be acceptable!
TBH I could see this making a bit more (political and social) sense if the
change were limited to the north-west corner of Scotland where the Gael
speaking percentage of the population is more than tiny. Such areas already
have their own Gael radio provisions IIUC.
Although I still think it would be a bad decision for many reasons. The
problem in social and political terms is that it ends up being either a
'ghetto' channel or a bit of political point scoring by someone to do this!
So far as I can tell, the vast bulk of the population of Scotland do not
want the proposed change, and many radio listeners would find it a PITA as
well as think it inherently unjust and unfair.
The bottom line may be that the BBC have to face up to having too many
stations, and remove some of the newer ones if they don't have the space.
But IMHO that would then need to be done on a UK-wide basis, and the
arguments would be in terms of factors like audience size, and the extent
to which much the same content would be supplied by commercial
broadcasters.
Slainte,
Jim
--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html
Owain
> ... Don't forget there's also Channel 36 which can be used at every
> transmitter (possibly including those 3) after analogue switch off because
> the requirement to keep it clear for analogue VHS machines and first
> generation gaming consoles has ceased.
It has?
I think the people with analogue video (not necessarily VHS) machines
and games consoles might disagree.
Owain
Glyn Morgan
"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> So it does ! That must be speculative info on there, AFAIK the BBC have
> not farmed out their radio stations to D3&4 anywhere, I'm seeing a man
> from Arqiva today, I'll confirm that with him. They used to be carried on
> Mux A many years ago, but other than that they've always been 'in house'
> on Mux B or post DSO Mux 1.
You are making me feel old. I'm sure it was only two years ago than we moved
Radios1-4 from MuxA to MuxB. My notes suggest it was on 3rd October 2007. I
remember writing a discussion note on the proceedure which ended "Hide from
the fallout" as a final action :)
Glyn
Mark Carver
Ha ! It seems longer than 2 years ago. Still that's good news I
suppose, perhaps time does slow down as you get older after all (he says
hopefully !) ;-)
Roger R
"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> Ha ! It seems longer than 2 years ago. Still that's good news I suppose,
> perhaps time does slow down as you get older after all (he says hopefully
> !) ;-)
I wouldn't be too hopeful.
It is a common experience that time goes faster as you get older.
When I was a child...
The six weeks summer holiday seemed without end.
Now six weeks goes by in a flash.
But don't give up all hope because he who is without hope is dead !
;-)
Roger R