Similarities between Christianity and Islam

[Nobody]

Similarities between Christianity and Islam

God:

Despite the confusion of the trinity in essence both religions believe
in One God, the creator of worlds.
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one [Deuteronomy 6:4]

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel:
The Lord our God, the Lord is one. [Mark 12:29]

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He
begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him.
[Quran 112]

The ultimate sin according to both is ascribing partners to God.

“I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land
of slavery. “You shall have no other gods before me. “You shall not
make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or
on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to
them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God… [Exodus 20:2-5]

Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He
forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with
Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed. [Quran 4:48]

The concept of God creating the world in six periods is similar,
although having a rest in the seventh is not found in Islam but rather
Islam states God established himself over his throne.

In Islam God is called Allah.

In Aramaic the language of Jesus God is called Aalah


Mankind:

Islam and Christianity both believe that the first man and women on
earth were Adam and Eve (pbut), and Eve was created from the rib of
Adam. Islam adds to this by stating Eve was created from the most
curved part of Adam rib.

Prophets:

Islam and Christianity believe in the same prophets and prophets. The
only difference we Jesus (pbuh), and therefore Muhammad (pbuh).
Although both agree Jesus was born of a virgin (Mary (pbuh)), and will
return to earth.

Islam rejects the divine status of Jesus. This argument can also be
put forth through the Bible.

By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is
just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me [John 5:30]

My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can
snatch them out of my Father’s hand [John 10:29]

“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If
you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the
Father is greater than I.[John 14:28]

The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah, the Son of
God, as it is written in Isaiah the prophet: “I will send my messenger
ahead of you, who will prepare your way…” [Mark 1:1-2] In the,
earliest of the Christian Gospels, Jesus is just known as son of God
but not the begotten son of God.

They do blaspheme who say: "(Allah) is Christ the son of Mary." But
said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your
Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the
garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers
be no one to help [Quran 5:72]

“I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land
of slavery. “You shall have no other gods before me. “You shall not
make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or
on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to
them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God… [Exodus 20:2-5]

Muslims would also point that the coming of prophet Muhammad (pbuh)
could be seen through the modern day bible.

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto
thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them
all that I shall command him.[Deuteronomy 18:18] Brethren, many of the
Arabs being descendants of Ismael (pbuh) the brother of Isaac (pbuh)
are the brethren of the Jews.

And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read
this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. [Isaiah 29:12] When
the revelation was first given to Muhammad he was commanded to read,
he replied I am not learned. He was commanded again, until he
understood the read to mean recite (in Arabic Iqra: meaning read,
recite, repeat. The first verses of the Quran were revealed:
“Proclaim! (or read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who
created Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood:
Proclaim! And thy Lord is Most Bountiful, He Who taught (the use of)
the pen, Taught man that which he knew not…” [Quran 96:1-5]

I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them
now.Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you
into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he
shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it
unto you. [John 16:12-14]


Ant-Christ; Dajjal:

Islam and Christianity both accept the concept of the anti-Christ. An
imposter that on the face of it will serve the needs of the people but
take them away from the salvation of God, the correct and true path.
An imposter that will be defeated by Jesus on his return.


Charity:

The concept of giving Charity is similar in both religion. Islam goes
further in this by making it an article of faith to pay charity
[Zakaat: meaning increasing, purifying] at a rate of 2.5% of wealth.
And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for
charity shall cover the multitude of sins.[1 Peter 4:8]

They ask thee what they should spend (In charity). Say: Whatever ye
spend that is good, is for parents and kindred and orphans and those
in want and for wayfarers. And whatever ye do that is good, -(Allah)
knoweth it well.[Quran 2:215]

Alms are for the poor and the needy, and those employed to administer
the (funds); for those whose hearts have been (recently) reconciled
(to Truth); for those in bondage and in debt; in the cause of Allah.
and for the wayfarer: (thus is it) ordained by Allah, and Allah is
full of knowledge and wisdom [Quran 9:60]


Fasting:

Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting [Mathew
17:21]

And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by
prayer and fasting [Mark 9:29]

The disciples of John fast often and offer prayers, and so do the
disciples of the Pharisees, but yours eat and drink.” [Luke 5:33]

Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad
countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto
men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou,
when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face; That thou
appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret:
and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.
[Mathew 6:16-18]

Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted
of the devil. And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he
was afterward an hungred. [Mathew 4:1-2]

O ye who believe! Fasting is prescribed to you as it was prescribed to
those before you, that ye may (learn) self-restraint, [Quran 2:183] In
Islam fasting is part of the faith and is performed during daylight
hours in the month of Ramadhan.


Pilgrim:

Blessed are they that dwell in thy house: they will be still praising
thee. Selah. Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; in whose
heart are the ways of them. Who passing through the valley of Baca
[accepted as Makkah by some scholars] make it a well; the rain also
filleth the pools. They go from strength to strength, every one of
them in Zion appeareth before God. [Psalms 84:4-7]

Albeit Christianity does not say perform pilgrim to Makkah, but a
theory of pilgrimage for blessing is presents.


Alcohol:

Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived
thereby is not wise [Proverbs 20:1]

And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the
Spirit; [Ephesians 5:18]

O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones,
and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork:
eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper [Quran 5:90]


Abstaining from Forbidden foods:

Dead meat –

And every soul that eateth that which died of itself, or that which
was torn with beasts, whether it be one of your own country, or a
stranger, he shall both wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water,
and be unclean until the even: then shall he be clean. [Leviticus
17:15]

Ye shall not eat of anything that dieth of itself… [Deuteronomy 14:21]
Albeit Islam does not promote selling or giving away of such meat to
another person who may eat it.

Blood –

That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from BLOOD, and from
things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep
yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well [Acts 15:29]
But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye
not eat.[Genesis 9:4]
Only ye shall not eat the blood; ye shall pour it upon the earth as
water. [Deuteronomy 12:16]

Pork –

And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud,
it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch
their dead carcase [Deuteronomy 14:8]

And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he
cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.
Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch;
they are unclean to you. [Leviticus 11:7-8]

In Isaiah 65:2-5 the people eating the meat of swine are amongst the
rebellious.

Food which have been slaughtered on other name of God:

But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them
that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a
stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed
unto idols, and to commit fornication. [Revelations 2:14]

That ye abstain from MEATS offered to IDOLS, and from blood, and from
things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep
yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well [Acts 15:29]

Quran – on the subject matter of eating prohibited foods.

This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food
of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto
them [Quran 5:5]

He hath only forbidden you dead meat, and blood, and the flesh of
swine, and that on which any other name hath been invoked besides that
of Allah. But if one is forced by necessity, without wilful
disobedience, nor transgressing due limits,- then is he guiltless. For
Allah is Oft-forgiving Most Merciful.[Quran 2:173]

Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine,
and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah. that
which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a
headlong fall, or by being gored to death; that which hath been
(partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it
(in due form); that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden)
also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows: that is
impiety…[Quran 5:3]

He has only forbidden you dead meat, and blood, and the flesh of
swine, and any (food) over which the name of other than Allah has been
invoked. But if one is forced by necessity, without wilful
disobedience, nor transgressing due limits,- then Allah is Oft-
Forgiving, Most Merciful.[Quran 16:115]


Circumcision:

And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so Abraham begat
Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and
Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs.[Acts 7:8] Abraham himself was
circumcised at an elderly age.

And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the
child, his name was called JESUS, which
was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb. [Luke
2:21]

"The Prophet (Muhammad (peace be upon him)) performed the Aqiqah of al-
Hasan and al-Hussein (the prophets grandsons) and circumcised them on
the 7th. Day." [Related in al-Bayhaq & Tabarani]


Revelations:

We both believe God sent his messengers with revelation like the
Torah. Though we may differ within the scripture and in what scripture
we accept or how much of it we accept.


Call to Prayer:

Christianity and Islam have a system which calls its faithful to pray.
In Christianity the bell is used and rung a number of times to
announce the time of prayer. In Islam the call is by voice, by someone
given the title of
Muezzin. The caller to prayer recites the same call five times a day.
This is:

ALLAH-HU-AKBAR … this means: God is the greatest The muezin says this
4 times, why 4 times I don’t know. Then the muezin will say

ASHADU-ANLA-ILAHA-ILLALA…. This means: I bear witness there is no god
but Allah. The muezin says this 2 times. Then the muezin will say

ASHADU-ANA-MUHAMMAD-DAR-RASOOLALA… this means: I bear witness Muhammad
is the messenger of Allah. The muezin says this 2 times. This is said
so that the listener understands that Muhammad is only a messenger
nothing more. The warning being don’t make the mistake like others
have done by making their heroes, messengers into gods. Then the
muezin will say

HAYA-ALASALAAT…. This means: Come to prayer. The meuzin says this 2
times. Then the muezin will say

HAYA-ALAL-FALAA… this means: Come to success. The muezin says this 2
times. Worshipping God is real success as it is eternal. Then the
muezin will say

ALLAHU-AKBAR…. This means: God is the greatest. This time the muezin
says this 2 times. This is near the end of the Azhan. The muezin said
God is the greatest 4 times at the start you would have thought that
was enough. By saying God is the greatest near the end; the purpose is
to tell the people listening, whether you come or you or you don’t
Allah is the greatest. By not coming to prayer you won’t exalt god of
his might but only transgress against yourself. Then the meuzin will
say

LAILAHA-ILALAA… this means: There nothing worthy of worship but Allah.
The muezin says this once. To say that nothing is worthy of worship
but Allah, at the end, also serves the purpose to say to the
listening, so you could continue worshipping your money god, moon god,
sun god, cow god, woman god, man god, any god you want to, but non but
Allah is worthy of worship.


The Worship of God:

Places of Worship –

When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him
from within the bush, "Moses! Moses!" And Moses said, "Here I am." "Do
not come any closer," God said. "TAKE OFF YOUR SANDALS, for the place
WHERE you are STANDING is HOLY GROUND. [Exodus 3:4-5]

Muslims take off their shoes before entering the actual place of
worship. Many mosques will have a section within the building for
visitors to take off their shoes.

Ablution –

Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a bronze basin, with its bronze
stand, for WASHING. Place it between the Tent of Meeting and the
altar, and put water in it. Aaron and his sons are to WASH their HANDS
and FEET with water from it. Whenever they enter the Tent of Meeting,
they shall wash with water so that they will not die. Also, when they
approach the altar to minister by presenting an offering made to the
LORD by fire, they shall wash their hands and feet so that they will
not die. This is to be a lasting ordinance for Aaron and his
descendants for the generations to come." [Exodus 30:17-21]

Performance of the Worship of God:

So Ahab went off to eat and drink, but Elijah climbed to the top of
Carmel, BENT DOWN TO THE GROUND and PUT HIS FACE BETWEEN HIS KNEES. [1
Kings 18:42]

What Elijah (pbuh) is supposed to have done performed in 1 Kings is a
key action in the Muslim worship of God.
I will confirm my covenant between me and you and will greatly
increase your numbers." Abram FELL FACEDOWN, and God said to him, "As
for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many
nations. [Genesis 17:2-4]

Moses and Aaron went from the assembly to the entrance to the Tent of
Meeting and FELL FACEDOWN, and the glory of the LORD appeared to them.
[Numbers 20:6]

& Jesus… Going a little farther, he FELL WITH HIS FACE TO THE GORUND
AND PRAYED, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from
me. Yet not as I will, but as you will” [Mathew 26:39]
The Christian Worship:

This is done by various means, generally by singing hymns, listening
to sermon. Islam does not promote singing in the Mosque but promotes
the reading of the Quran in a rhythmic way. In Islam acts of sermons,
and general raising of hands and asking God for help and forgiveness
is described as prayer but certain scholars distinguish this from the
5 daily prayer as calling the daily prayers as worship.

The Islamic worship:

Starts by the person standing with the words God is the greatest. The
person raises their hands straight up to the chest or head, as a
gesture of surrender and then recites: O’ Allah! All glory is due to
You, I praise You, Your name is the Most Blessed, Your Majesty is
highly exalted and there is none worthy of worship You. (this is only
read in the first cycle of the worship) then recites: “In the name of
Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher
and Sustainer of the worlds; Most Gracious, Most Merciful; Master of
the Day of Judgment. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek. Show
us the straight way, The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy
Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.
[Quran 1: 1-7] then say “Ameen” recite a section from the Quran other
then chapter 1, then go into the posture as mentioned in 1 Kings 18:42
by Elijah and recite: “Glory be to my Nourisher, the Most Great”.
While standing up straight from this posture recite: “Allah listens to
him who praises Him”. Then standing straight say: “O’ our Sustainer!
All praise is due to You alone”. Then the person goes into the
prostration position posture as mentioned in Number 20:6 and Mathew
26:39 and recites: “Glory be to my Nourisher, the Most High”. This
completes one cycle within the prayer. When performed in congregation
people are required to stand shoulder to shoulder in unity.

[celia]

Call me a nasty suspicious person but the English in the above is so
good that I checked out if it had been borrowed. It has been posted
elsewhere before but the places that I looked were all by 'nobody'
over a period of several years.
The article is well worth considering but please remember 'nobody'
that plagiarism is not allowed in this group and that means that if
you use someone else's words they should be acknowledged and longer
pieces such as the above should only be linked to or fully attributed
and copied with the writers permission.

Celia

[celia]

On 10 Mar, 06:34, celia <c_a_b...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Apologies I should have cut the original post as it was long.

[- .. -- Tim .-.]

On 09/03/2012 21:46, Nobody wrote:

<I have snipped this, as Celia has questioned the copyright situation>.

One thing I noticed was the passage on circumcision. This is NOT a
requirement of Christianity, and therefore is a difference and not a
similarity!

The key point, though, is that Islam, like Judaism, is a religion of the
Law, rather than of Grace. Whereas Christianity does not claim that the
Law was abolished, it claims that Christians are no longer bound by it
as it was fulfilled in Christ. Hence we are not required to be
circumscised (the mark of the Old Covenant) but instead are to be
baptised into Christ, the mark of the New Covenant of Grace through
Faith in Christ. Likewise, the other ceremonial and sacrificial Law no
longer has to be kept.

However, Christians are required to submit to Christ, and reject sin,
the 'World' and the devil. We are required to repent of and confess our
sins in genuine penitance and faith, resolving not to sin again. Rather
than a specific set of rules, we are given the general instructions to
'Love God, and love our neighbour as ourselves'. Jesus says if we love
Him we will keep His commands, so our obedience to God is out of love
rather than fear. To 'Fear' God, then, is to repect God, but at the
same time trusting Him in faith to keep His promises to us who are in
Christ.

Basically, Salvation is by Grace through Faith in Christ, rather than by
keeping the Law or by our own efforts. We MUST produce 'Good Works',
BUT those works are a *consequence* of our relationship with God and our
love for Him that brings our will closer and closer to His. The works
are the *evidence* of the love for God we are commanded to have, rather
than something we do in order to try and buy favour in God's eyes. By
serving one-another and our neighbour, we are also serving God.

Christianity also teaches that God's Spirit dwells *within* us (hence
there is no need under the New Covenant for a Temple). Our bodies are
temples in which the Spirit dwells, and thus we can each encounter God
within ourselves and in each other. God is not distant, but is right
here with us, among us and IN us.

Hope that shows some of the *differences* between the religions of the
Law, and the religion of Grace.

Tim.

[John]

Nicely put Tim.

[Nobody]

The original document did contain literature within it, which I had
posted in this forum and others before. Where words are borrowed, they
are directly from the Bible, Quran or Hadith, and are cited as such.
This article contains sections of previous posts which relate to this
post. I can assure you other than the citations the article is my own
work. I would have added other similarities such as 10 commandments,
life after death etc, but the article was already a lengthy read.

[Nobody]

On Mar 10, 8:21 am, "- .. -- Tim .-." <timrea...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> On 09/03/2012 21:46, Nobody wrote:
>
> <I have snipped this, as Celia has questioned the copyright situation>.
>
> One thing I noticed was the passage on circumcision. This is NOT a
> requirement of Christianity, and therefore is a difference and not a
> similarity!
>

Jesus was circumcised and as far as I know his disciples would have
been also. Certain orthodox Christians and Coptic still practice
circumcision.
The matter that circumcision is not required arose ~50AD and it was
agreed gentile Christians need not be circumcised. This is a decision
made by people after Jesus left earth.

> Whereas Christianity does not claim that the
> Law was abolished, it claims that Christians are no longer bound by it
> as it was fulfilled in Christ.

This is a theological point of view that is later developed and
through the letters of Paul which has become part of Biblical
scripture. The actual scripture which is supposed to outweigh any of
Paul's writings most notably the Gospels and within that the words
attributed to Jesus contradict that point of view.

In Matthew 5:17-19 Jesus is supposed to have said:

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am
not come to destroy, but to fulfill”

The word fulfill does not mean abolish or to save you from the law God
as if the law of God was imposed as a curse upon humankind. True we
humans due to our nature find it difficult to adhere to everything God
wants us to, This life is a test, how we try to follow God and when we
fall under sin, do we return back to God and repent.

“For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one
tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be
fulfilled.Whosoever therefore shall break one of these LEAST
commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the LEAST in
the kingdom of heaven”

Now this verse makes it clear that “fulfill” & “fulfilled” meant the
law of God has to applied, it is something given for implementation
and not to be seen as a matter of history; hence whosoever breaks the
least of the law, even if you consider it to be an insignificant
command by God you will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. If
that is the case for breaking the least of the commandments, then what
is the case for people holding to concocted beliefs of non requirement
of the law.

“ but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called
great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your
righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and
Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven".

>
> However, Christians are required to submit to Christ, and reject sin,
> the 'World' and the devil. We are required to repent of and confess our
> sins in genuine penitance and faith, resolving not to sin again. Rather
> than a specific set of rules, we are given the general instructions to
> 'Love God, and love our neighbour as ourselves'.

What you have stated above is very similar to Islam. In Islam
submission and worship is to God not the messengers of God.

>Jesus says if we love
> Him we will keep His commands, so our obedience to God is out of love
> rather than fear. To 'Fear' God, then, is to repect God, but at the
> same time trusting Him in faith to keep His promises to us who are in
> Christ.
>

Islam teaches to have a balance between fear and love/admiration, or
belief of forgiveness from God. It is ideal if one does not outweigh
the other.

[celia]

Thanks for the clarification. You obviously put a lot of work into it.

celia

[- .. -- Tim .-.]

On 10/03/2012 13:51, Nobody wrote:
> In Islam
> submission and worship is to God not the messengers of God.
>

The messengers of God are the Angels. Christians do not worship Angels,
or prophets.

Jesus is the Word made flesh, not just a prophet, not just a messenger.

Tim.

[Gareth McCaughan]

"Nobody" wrote:

[Tim:]

>> One thing I noticed was the passage on circumcision. This is NOT a
>> requirement of Christianity, and therefore is a difference and not a
>> similarity!

["Nobody":]

> Jesus was circumcised and as far as I know his disciples would have
> been also. Certain orthodox Christians and Coptic still practice
> circumcision.
> The matter that circumcision is not required arose ~50AD and it was
> agreed gentile Christians need not be circumcised. This is a decision
> made by people after Jesus left earth.

None the less, circumcision is not a requirement of Christianity.
Maybe it was for a decade or two, but so what?

> This is a theological point of view that is later developed and
> through the letters of Paul which has become part of Biblical
> scripture. The actual scripture which is supposed to outweigh any of
> Paul's writings most notably the Gospels and within that the words
> attributed to Jesus contradict that point of view.

You surely can't be unaware that Christians consider the writings
canonically attributed to Paul to be "actual scripture"?

--
Gareth McCaughan
sig under construc

[Alwyn]

On 10/03/2012 13:51, Nobody wrote:
>

> Jesus was circumcised and as far as I know his disciples would have
> been also.

Jesus and his disciples were all Jewish. It goes without saying that
they were circumcised on the eighth day.

> Certain orthodox Christians and Coptic still practice
> circumcision.

Copts only adopted circumcision after Egypt was Islamized. The practice
is also common among Ethiopian Christians, but it is not required.

> The matter that circumcision is not required arose ~50AD and it was
> agreed gentile Christians need not be circumcised. This is a decision
> made by people after Jesus left earth.

Before then, Christianity was a messianic Jewish sect, so of course
circumcision was a requirement. Christianity as we know it starts with
Paul, not Jesus.


Alwyn

[Nobody]

On Mar 10, 4:40 pm, Gareth McCaughan <Gareth.McCaug...@pobox.com>
wrote:

> "Nobody" wrote:
>
> [Tim:]
>
> >> One thing I noticed was the passage on circumcision.  This is NOT a
> >> requirement of Christianity, and therefore is a difference and not a
> >> similarity!
>
> ["Nobody":]
>
> > Jesus was circumcised and as far as I know his disciples would have
> > been also. Certain orthodox Christians and Coptic still practice
> > circumcision.
> > The matter that circumcision is not required arose ~50AD and it was
> > agreed gentile Christians need not be circumcised. This is a decision
> > made by people after Jesus left earth.
>
> None the less, circumcision is not a requirement of Christianity.
> Maybe it was for a decade or two, but so what?

As I said before this decision was made later after Jesus (pbuh). The
fact that the Christians knew the act as a part of the religious faith
original shows we have a common ground.

>
> > This is a theological point of view that is later developed and
> > through the letters of Paul which has become part of Biblical
> > scripture. The actual scripture which is supposed to outweigh any of
> > Paul's writings most notably the Gospels and within that the words
> > attributed to Jesus contradict that point of view.
>
> You surely can't be unaware that Christians consider the writings
> canonically attributed to Paul to be "actual scripture"?
>

I know, they are considered actual scripture. Although scholars would
admit Paul did not write them with the intention of them being
scripture but as letters to his churches in attempt to solve faith
issues which had arisen when he was undertaking missionary works in
other regions.

[Robert Marshall]

On Fri, 9 Mar 2012, 'Nobody' tos...@gmail.com wrote:

> Alcohol:
>
> Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived
> thereby is not wise [Proverbs 20:1]
>
> And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the
> Spirit; [Ephesians 5:18]
>
> O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones,
> and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork:
> eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper [Quran 5:90]
>

Elsewhere in the discussion you say that Jesus was the basis for
circumcision but here you're ignoring the very abundant evidence that
Jesus drank wine ('a wine bibber') and by the miracle at Cana encouraged
others to do so!

Also Judaism never seems (I think!) to have had any issues with the
moderate drinking of alcohol.

Robert
--
Conformity means death for any community. A loyal opposition is a
necessity in any community. Karol Wojtyla (1969)

[Gareth McCaughan]

"Nobody" wrote:

> As I said before this decision was made later after Jesus (pbuh). The
> fact that the Christians knew the act as a part of the religious faith
> original shows we have a common ground.

If that's your point, surely it suffices to say that both
Christianity and Islam are descended from Judaism, a religion
in which circumcision is important.

>> You surely can't be unaware that Christians consider the writings
>> canonically attributed to Paul to be "actual scripture"?
>
> I know, they are considered actual scripture. Although scholars would
> admit Paul did not write them with the intention of them being
> scripture but as letters to his churches in attempt to solve faith
> issues which had arisen when he was undertaking missionary works in
> other regions.

I think it's generally reckoned that none of the documents that
now make up the "New Testament" were written with the intention
that they would be considered scripture. (Though I wonder a bit
about the ones that are widely thought to have been written quite
late and falsely attributed to eminent people -- e.g., the "Pastoral
Letters" purportedly by Paul to Timothy and Titus.)

[Nobody]

On Mar 10, 9:13 pm, Gareth McCaughan <Gareth.McCaug...@pobox.com>
wrote:

> "Nobody" wrote:
> > As I said before this decision was made later after Jesus (pbuh). The
> > fact that the Christians knew the act as a part of the religious faith
> > original shows we have a common ground.
>
> If that's your point, surely it suffices to say that both
> Christianity and Islam are descended from Judaism, a religion
> in which circumcision is important.

It could be. Although it would show an element of dishonesty as
Abraham was not a Jew.

[Nobody]

On Mar 10, 8:43 pm, Robert Marshall <s...@capuchin.co.uk> wrote:

> On Fri, 9 Mar 2012, 'Nobody' tose...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Alcohol:
>
> > Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived
> > thereby is not wise [Proverbs 20:1]
>
> > And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the
> > Spirit; [Ephesians 5:18]
>
> > O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones,
> > and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork:
> > eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper [Quran 5:90]
>
> Elsewhere in the discussion you say that Jesus was the basis for
> circumcision

I think you are confusing the issue. Abraham was the first to receive
the command to be circumcised as far as I know according to
Christianity and Islam. Abraham was not a Jew, negates the idea that
it is something specific for the Jews.

> but here you're ignoring the very abundant evidence that
> Jesus drank wine ('a wine bibber') and by the miracle at Cana encouraged
> others to do so!
>

We do not know whether the wine drank by Jesus was alcoholic or not.
The scripture only speaks of alcoholic drinks.

> Also Judaism never seems (I think!) to have had any issues with the
> moderate drinking of alcohol.
>

As far as I know it is not recommended but a casual drink up to the
amount which supposedly keeps the individual within their own senses
is acceptable. That is seen as staying within scope of the text.
Christianity and Judaism as far as I know have not made it as part of
faith for one not to be drunk, but rather it is recommended as unwise
actions within the scripture.

[Alwyn]

On 10/03/2012 21:36, Nobody wrote:
> On Mar 10, 9:13 pm, Gareth McCaughan<Gareth.McCaug...@pobox.com>
>

> Abraham was not a Jew.

On the contrary, Jews consider Avraham avinu (Abraham our father) to be
the first Jew.


Alwyn

[Robert Marshall]

On Sat, 10 Mar 2012, tos...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Mar 10, 8:43 pm, Robert Marshall <s...@capuchin.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Fri, 9 Mar 2012, 'Nobody' tose...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > Alcohol:
>>
>> > Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived
>> > thereby is not wise [Proverbs 20:1]
>>
>> > And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with
>> > the Spirit; [Ephesians 5:18]
>>
>> > O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones,
>> > and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's
>> > handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper [Quran
>> > 5:90]
>>
>> Elsewhere in the discussion you say that Jesus was the basis for
>> circumcision
>
> I think you are confusing the issue. Abraham was the first to receive
> the command to be circumcised as far as I know according to
> Christianity and Islam. Abraham was not a Jew, negates the idea that
> it is something specific for the Jews.
>

I meant Jesus as a basis for your circumcision point within Christianity

>> but here you're ignoring the very abundant evidence that Jesus drank
>> wine ('a wine bibber') and by the miracle at Cana encouraged others
>> to do so!
>>
>
> We do not know whether the wine drank by Jesus was alcoholic or not.
> The scripture only speaks of alcoholic drinks.
>

You're meaning that the condemnation is of alcoholic drinks? With
natural fermentation I think it very unlikely that the wine that Jesus
consumed didn't contain alcohol and the criticism of him for drinking
(by the Pharisees) rather assumes an alcoholic content

>> Also Judaism never seems (I think!) to have had any issues with the
>> moderate drinking of alcohol.
>>
>
> As far as I know it is not recommended but a casual drink up to the
> amount which supposedly keeps the individual within their own senses
> is acceptable. That is seen as staying within scope of the text.
> Christianity and Judaism as far as I know have not made it as part of
> faith for one not to be drunk, but rather it is recommended as unwise
> actions within the scripture.

I wouldn't disagree!

[Nobody]

Jews may consider that, if they didn't it creates a logical fallacy
for them. The scripture we have to date negates the opinion that
Abraham (pbuh) was a Jew or Arab. It was his descendant that became
Jews or Arabs. Jews came through Isaac, and some of the Arabs through
Ismail (pbut). According to the Bible the Jews themselves are from the
tribe of Judah, Judah being the great-grandson of Abraham. Abraham is
two generations before the coming of the Jews. The logical fallacy is
the Jews claiming that they are God's chosen people. The rest of us
are at most are regarded as gentiles. In this scenario the great man
Abraham the man accepted as the father of the three faith (Judaism,
Christianity & Islam) is a gentile. So to include him amongst God
chosen people the grand father must be seen as the chosen one, a Jew
is logical for them despite this not being supported by scripture.

[Gareth McCaughan]

I never mentioned Abraham. (By "Islam is descended from Judaism"
I did *not* mean "Ishmael was the son of Abraham".) If you think it
dishonest to say that Islam is descended from Judaism, do please
feel free to explain why.

[Alwyn]

On 10/03/2012 22:11, Robert Marshall wrote:
>
> With
> natural fermentation I think it very unlikely that the wine that Jesus
> consumed didn't contain alcohol and the criticism of him for drinking
> (by the Pharisees) rather assumes an alcoholic content

Surely the clincher is;

And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the new wine
will burst the skins; the wine will run out and the wineskins will be
ruined. No, new wine must be poured into new wineskins. And no one after
drinking old wine wants the new, for they say, ‘The old is better’
(Luke 5:37-39)

As new wine ferments, it generates gas, which can burst the skins, so if
you are going to reuse wineskins, it is better to put old wine, which
has finished fermenting, into them. Jesus also says that the quality of
wine improves with age, which is something you would hardly expect
somebody who only drank unfermented wine to say.

The Wedding at Cana, where Jesus turns water into wine is also a good
piece of evidence. The chief steward is congratulated for leaving the
best wine till last, which is contrary to the usual custom: if you have
poor wine, do not serve it until your guests are too intoxicated to notice.


Alwyn

[Alwyn]

On 10/03/2012 22:19, Nobody wrote:
>
> In this scenario the great man
> Abraham the man accepted as the father of the three faith (Judaism,

> Christianity& Islam) is a gentile. So to include him amongst God

> chosen people the grand father must be seen as the chosen one, a Jew
> is logical for them despite this not being supported by scripture.

But they are Jewish scriptures, written by Jews for Jews. As I
understand it, it was circumcision that made Abraham Jewish. Needless to
say, it would be many centuries before Christianity and Islam appeared
on the scene. Paul goes to some length to make the point that gentile
Christians are the children of Abraham by Sarah (i.e. chosen people) in
spite of net being circumcised.


Alwyn

[Curlytop]

Alwyn set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time continuum:

> Before then, Christianity was a messianic Jewish sect, so of course
> circumcision was a requirement. Christianity as we know it starts with
> Paul, not Jesus.

The release of Christians from the ceremonial details of the Jewish Law goes
back to the Council of Jerusalem, chaired by St. James, which was prompted
by some Jewish Christians who tried to enforce circumcision on all
non-Jewish Christian converts. It seems this Council got a bit heated,
until Peter pointed out regarding the non-Jewish converts, that the Holy
Spirit had "put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts
by faith." After receiving the reports from Paul and Barnabas of the
progress of Christianity, and nobody had anything further to say, St. James
pronounced the judgement that is still valid among non-Jewish Christians:

"Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the
Gentiles are turned to God."

And so there would be no mistake, no repeat of the strife, and no schism on
this point, this was written up and copies despatched by trusted messengers
to the infant churches.

(Acts 15 passim)
--
ξ: ) Proud to be curly

Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

"Alwyn" <al...@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:jjg3sg$p9d$1...@news.albasani.net...

And Saint Paul being chosen by God and personally ordained by Christ who
thereafter watched over and guided him for the rest of his preaching
life....summed it up brilliantly...[as usual].
"19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing; but the keeping
of the commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19 (ASV)

Jeff...

[Nobody]

If it was circumcision that made Abraham Jewish I would absolutely
love to see scripture supporting this. That would make all Muslims and
Christians that are circumcised Jewish and give them just right to
claim back their land in Palestine.

[Nobody]

On Mar 10, 10:52 pm, Gareth McCaughan <Gareth.McCaug...@pobox.com>

If you look back at your original statement which you feel was a
suffice explanation. It alludes to the idea that Christianity and
Islam adhered to the notion of circumcision through Judaism. Meaning
the Jews were first to be circumcised as part of faith. It would be
dishonest, as according to all three faiths Abraham (PBUH) was the
first to be circumcised who was neither Jew, Christian, or Arab.

[Alwyn]

On 11/03/2012 16:43, Nobody wrote:
>
> If it was circumcision that made Abraham Jewish I would absolutely
> love to see scripture supporting this. That would make all Muslims and
> Christians that are circumcised Jewish and give them just right to
> claim back their land in Palestine.

Perhaps I should have been more precise and specified the Covenant of
Circumcision (brith mihal) between God and Abraham as described in
Genesis 17:10-14:

'This is My covenant, which ye shall keep, between Me and you and thy
seed after thee: every male among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall
be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of
a covenant betwixt Me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be
circumcised among you, every male throughout your generations, he that
is born in the house, or bought with money of any foreigner, that is not
of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with
thy money, must needs be circumcised; and My covenant shall be in your
flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised male who is not
circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that soul shall be cut off
from his people; he hath broken My covenant.'

I have no idea whether circumcision among Muslims is the result of that
covenant (there is no mention of circumcision in the Koran), but if any
uncircumcised males wish to convert to Judaism, they can be reassured
that they need not be circumcised a second time!


Alwyn

[Alwyn]

On 11/03/2012 18:16, Alwyn wrote:
>
> if any
> uncircumcised males wish to convert to Judaism, they can be reassured
> that they need not be circumcised a second time!

uncircumcised -> circumcised


Alwyn

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

"Nobody" <tos...@gmail.com> wrote in message

> That would make all Muslims and
> Christians that are circumcised Jewish and give them just right to
> claim back their land in Palestine.

Almighty God says it belongs to the Jews alright, from the River of Egypt
to the Great River Euphrates.
"Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the
great river, the river Euphrates" Gen 15:18 (ASV)

Jeff...

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

"Nobody" <tos...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:d6c591e8-1ff8-4ae3...@z31g2000vbt.googlegroups.com...

On Mar 10, 4:40 pm, Gareth McCaughan <Gareth.McCaug...@pobox.com>
wrote:

>> You surely can't be unaware that Christians consider the writings
>> canonically attributed to Paul to be "actual scripture"?

That's what Saint Peter called them..."Even as our beloved brother Paul also
according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in
all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things
hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as
they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." 2 Peter
3:15-16 (KJV)

Yes! those who wrest Paul's teachings to mean the opposite of what he
plainly taught are not only Biblically "Unstable" but are foolishly doing
it to "Unto their OWN DESTRUCTION".
Take note all uncovered women speakers, preachers, foolish aspiring to
become 'bishops' and all those who refuse to remain silent as the Lord
Christ has commanded them. Please repent!

> I know, they are considered actual scripture.

Because they are, as the Lord Christ himself was guiding Saint Paul and so
approved of all that he wrote to teach the Gentile churches.
"11 Dear brothers and sisters, I want you to understand that the gospel
message I preach is not based on mere human reasoning.12 I received my
message from no human source, and no one taught me. Instead, I received it
by direct revelation from Jesus Christ." Gal 1:11-12 (NLT)

Jeff...

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

"- .. -- Tim .-." <timr...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:IK2dnQuYX6Tj7sbS...@bt.com...

Indeed!
Almighty God says Jesus is His "Beloved Son in whom I am well pleased"

Jeff...
Some very interesting articles !
http://www.arkdiscovery.com/noah's_ark.htm

[Gareth McCaughan]

"Nobody" wrote:

>>> It could be. Although it would show an element of dishonesty as
>>> Abraham was not a Jew.
>>
>> I never mentioned Abraham. (By "Islam is descended from Judaism"
>> I did *not* mean "Ishmael was the son of Abraham".) If you think it
>> dishonest to say that Islam is descended from Judaism, do please
>> feel free to explain why.
>
> If you look back at your original statement which you feel was a
> suffice explanation. It alludes to the idea that Christianity and
> Islam adhered to the notion of circumcision through Judaism. Meaning
> the Jews were first to be circumcised as part of faith. It would be
> dishonest, as according to all three faiths Abraham (PBUH) was the
> first to be circumcised who was neither Jew, Christian, or Arab.

You are still reading into my comment things that are simply not
there.

I think Islam got the idea of circumcision from Judaism. I don't
think the way in which Islam got the idea of circumcision from Judaism
has anything much to do with Abraham (other than the fact that one
of the things Islam and Judaism have in common is that both say that
circumcision began with Abraham).

It sounds as if you believe that Judaism and Islam independently
got the idea of circumcision from a common "Abrahamic" predecessor
from which both separately flowed. You're welcome to believe this,
and I agree that if it were true it would be wrong to say that
Islam got the idea of circumcision from Judaism. But it isn't what
I was saying, and I don't believe it's true.

[Nobody]

On Mar 12, 12:35 am, Gareth McCaughan <Gareth.McCaug...@pobox.com>
wrote:

Of all the Muslims classes I have attended or the lectures I have
listened to or the books I have read, when the issue of circumcision
according to the Islamic perspective it is part of the faith because
Abraham was circumcised. In Islam it does not matter if the Jews
circumcise or not it is seen as a practice started by Abraham
therefore it should be continued.

[Nobody]

On Mar 11, 6:16 pm, Alwyn <al...@dircon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 11/03/2012 16:43, Nobody wrote:
>
>
>
> > If it was circumcision that made Abraham Jewish I would absolutely
> > love to see scripture supporting this. That would make all Muslims and
> > Christians that are circumcised Jewish and give them just right to
> > claim back their land in Palestine.
>
> Perhaps I should have been more precise and specified the Covenant of
> Circumcision (brith mihal) between God and Abraham as described in
> Genesis 17:10-14:
>
> 'This is My covenant, which ye shall keep, between Me and you and thy
> seed after thee: every male among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall
> be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of
> a covenant betwixt Me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be
> circumcised among you, every male throughout your generations, he that
> is born in the house, or bought with money of any foreigner, that is not
> of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with
> thy money, must needs be circumcised; and My covenant shall be in your
> flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised male who is not
> circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that soul shall be cut off
> from his people; he hath broken My covenant.'

So does that make a Non-Jew, a Jew after circumcision. If no, then

Abraham was not a Jew.

>

> I have no idea whether circumcision among Muslims is the result of that
> covenant (there is no mention of circumcision in the Koran), but if any
> uncircumcised males wish to convert to Judaism, they can be reassured
> that they need not be circumcised a second time!
>

The circumcision of Abraham is found in hadith.

[Nobody]

On Mar 11, 7:51 pm, "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
<jnhickling[remove]@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> "Nobody" <tose...@gmail.com> wrote in message

Is Ismail not the seed of Abraham.

[Nobody]

On Mar 10, 3:30 pm, "- .. -- Tim .-." <timrea...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> On 10/03/2012 13:51, Nobody wrote:
>
> >  In Islam
> > submission and worship is to God not the messengers of God.
>
> The messengers of God are the Angels.  Christians do not worship Angels,
> or prophets.
>
> Jesus is the Word made flesh, not just a prophet, not just a messenger.
>

This is Eternal Life: to know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ
whom you have sent (John 17:3)

I can of my own self do nothing, as I hear I judge and my judgement is
just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which
has sent me (John 5:30)

And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me.
Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. (John
5:37)

Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then
shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my
Father hath taught me, I speak these things, The one who sent me is
with me. He has not left me alone, because I always do what is
pleasing to him." (John 8:28-29)

Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I HAVE NOT YET RETURNED TO THE
FATHER. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my
Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' " (John 20:17)

Does God have a God

[Nobody]

On Mar 11, 8:11 pm, "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"

<jnhickling[remove]@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> "Nobody" <tose...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
>

> > I know, they are considered actual scripture.
>
> Because they are, as the Lord Christ himself was guiding Saint Paul and so
> approved of all that he wrote to teach the Gentile churches.
> "11 Dear brothers and sisters, I want you to understand that the gospel
> message I preach is not based on mere human reasoning.12 I received my
> message from no human source, and no one taught me. Instead, I received it
> by direct revelation from Jesus Christ."  Gal 1:11-12 (NLT)
>

“By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that
had received the promises offered up his only begotten son” (Hebrews
11:17)

But in Genesis the Bible makes it clear Ismael was born before Isaac,
so how Paul recognises Isaac as the only begotten son of Abraham is
only known to him.

So Hagar bore Abram a son, and Abram gave the name Ishmael to the son
she had borne. Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore him
Ishmael. (Genesis 16:15-16)

I think its quite clear Paul was not actually guided by God, but only
claimed to be as such mistakes have a human prejudice attached to
them. In the above instance either God lied to Paul or Paul lied to
his listeners/readers. I accept the later to be true.

[John]

On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 03:47:12 -0700 (PDT), Nobody <tos...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Mar 11, 8:11 pm, "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
><jnhickling[remove]@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> "Nobody" <tose...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>>
>> > I know, they are considered actual scripture.
>>
>> Because they are, as the Lord Christ himself was guiding Saint Paul and so
>> approved of all that he wrote to teach the Gentile churches.
>> "11 Dear brothers and sisters, I want you to understand that the gospel
>> message I preach is not based on mere human reasoning.12 I received my
>> message from no human source, and no one taught me. Instead, I received it
>> by direct revelation from Jesus Christ."  Gal 1:11-12 (NLT)
>>
>
>“By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that
>had received the promises offered up his only begotten son” (Hebrews
>11:17)
>
>But in Genesis the Bible makes it clear Ismael was born before Isaac,
>so how Paul recognises Isaac as the only begotten son of Abraham is
>only known to him.

Ishmael was born of Hagar, a concubine, and was sent away by Abram and
Sara (havent checked so might be slighty wrong there) Isaac therefore
provided further seed for the Jewish nation.

>So Hagar bore Abram a son, and Abram gave the name Ishmael to the son
>she had borne. Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore him
>Ishmael. (Genesis 16:15-16)
>
>I think its quite clear Paul was not actually guided by God, but only
>claimed to be as such mistakes have a human prejudice attached to
>them. In the above instance either God lied to Paul or Paul lied to
>his listeners/readers. I accept the later to be true.

Based on the fact that it was Isaac who carried on the Jewish tribe,
not Ishmael, Paul is correct.

The bible is silent in what happened to Ishmael, how do you know that
he is the forerunner of Islam?

[Nobody]

On Mar 12, 2:07 pm, John <truthseeke...@ymail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 03:47:12 -0700 (PDT), Nobody <tose...@gmail.com>

> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Mar 11, 8:11 pm, "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
> ><jnhickling[remove]@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >> "Nobody" <tose...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >> > I know, they are considered actual scripture.
>
> >> Because they are, as the Lord Christ himself was guiding Saint Paul and so
> >> approved of all that he wrote to teach the Gentile churches.
> >> "11 Dear brothers and sisters, I want you to understand that the gospel
> >> message I preach is not based on mere human reasoning.12 I received my
> >> message from no human source, and no one taught me. Instead, I received it
> >> by direct revelation from Jesus Christ."  Gal 1:11-12 (NLT)
>
> >“By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that
> >had received the promises offered up his only begotten son” (Hebrews
> >11:17)
>
> >But in Genesis the Bible makes it clear Ismael was born before Isaac,
> >so how Paul recognises Isaac as the only begotten son of Abraham is
> >only known to him.
>
> Ishmael was born of Hagar, a concubine, and was sent away by Abram and
> Sara (havent checked so might be slighty wrong there)  Isaac therefore
> provided further seed for the Jewish nation.

I never stated anything to do with the Jewish nation not being the
seed of Isaac. Albeit the Jewish nation is more from Judah who comes
after Isaac according to the Bible. Does "only" mean "only".

>
> >So Hagar bore Abram a son, and Abram gave the name Ishmael to the son
> >she had borne. Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore him
> >Ishmael. (Genesis 16:15-16)
>
> >I think its quite clear Paul was not actually guided by God, but only
> >claimed to be as such mistakes have a human prejudice attached to
> >them. In the above instance either God lied to Paul or Paul lied to
> >his listeners/readers. I accept the later to be true.
>
> Based on the fact that it was Isaac who carried on the Jewish tribe,
> not Ishmael,  Paul is  correct.

Only begotten son - means Isaac was the only son of Abraham, which you
know according to the Biblical scripture is not true.

>
> The bible is silent in what happened to Ishmael, how do you know that
> he is the forerunner of Islam?

Through prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

[Kendall Down]

On 10/03/2012 22:19, Nobody wrote:

> Jews may consider that, if they didn't it creates a logical fallacy
> for them. The scripture we have to date negates the opinion that
> Abraham (pbuh) was a Jew or Arab. It was his descendant that became
> Jews or Arabs.

Nevertheless, it would be perfectly acceptable to claim that Abraham was
the first Jew. (It would be equally logical to claim that Abraham was
the first Arab as well!)

God bless,
Kendall K. Down

[Kendall Down]

On 11/03/2012 18:16, Alwyn wrote:

> I have no idea whether circumcision among Muslims is the result of that
> covenant (there is no mention of circumcision in the Koran), but if any
> uncircumcised males wish to convert to Judaism, they can be reassured
> that they need not be circumcised a second time!

Unless they are Falashas, of course.

[Kendall Down]

On 12/03/2012 10:47, Nobody wrote:

> But in Genesis the Bible makes it clear Ismael was born before Isaac,
> so how Paul recognises Isaac as the only begotten son of Abraham is
> only known to him.

You forget that in olden times there were legitimate and illegitimate
children (these days there seem to be only illegitimate ones!) The
children of concubines and mistresses were not legitimate, could not
inherit, etc. Thus Henry VIII only had one son, Edward VII - yet if you
know your history, he had at least one other son, an illegitimate youth.

In the same way, Sarah was Abraham's wife and so her son was his only
legitimate son and thus his firstborn.

[- .. -- Tim .-.]

On 12/03/2012 15:44, Kendall Down wrote:
> On 12/03/2012 10:47, Nobody wrote:
>
>> But in Genesis the Bible makes it clear Ismael was born before Isaac,
>> so how Paul recognises Isaac as the only begotten son of Abraham is
>> only known to him.
>
> You forget that in olden times there were legitimate and illegitimate
> children (these days there seem to be only illegitimate ones!) The
> children of concubines and mistresses were not legitimate, could not
> inherit, etc. Thus Henry VIII only had one son, Edward VII - yet if you
> know your history, he had at least one other son, an illegitimate youth.

Edward VII wasn't born until the 1800's! Henry VIII died in the 16th
Century.

Tim.

[Nobody]

The allegation of illegitimacy against Ismail. This is surely from a
point of view of bias and closed minded approach and prejudice. I have
to mention not all that I will state in the following post is my
opinion (something that I accept) or part of Islamic belief. It is for
the sole purpose to deal with the original allegation made by Ken and
those to hold the same opinion.

According to the Bible - None of you shall approach to any that is
near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD.
[18:6]... Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your
father’s daughter or your mother’s daughter, whether she was born in
the same home or elsewhere. [18:9] Neither shalt thou take a wife to
her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in
her life time. [18:18] Leviticus.

And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister: and Abimelech
king of Gerar sent, and took Sarah. [Genesis 20:2]... And yet indeed
she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the
daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.[Genesis 20:12]

You say Ismail was a bastard because he was born of a slave woman. If
you look within your Bible Isaac was twice the bastard Ismail ever was
because he was born through a relationship of incest.

An illegitimate child is someone who is born out of wedlock.

“So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife
took her Egyptian slave Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his
wife”. [Genesis 16:3]

Hagar was the given to Abraham as a wife. Hagar the wife of Abraham
gave birth to his first begotten son Ismail.

Since the Bible in essence does not recognise the marital bond between
siblings (as according to Leviticus) who really is the illegitimate
child?

[I nor does the Muslim community hold any such opinion of Ismail or
Isaac, of being the illegitimate child of Abraham]

[Alwyn]

On 12/03/2012 10:26, Nobody wrote:
>
> So does that make a Non-Jew, a Jew after circumcision. If no, then
> Abraham was not a Jew.

I believe the Jews would say that it was the covenant that God made with
Abraham that established the Jewish people, and the circumcision of
their males was a sign of their dedication to God. I do not see how
circumcision outside the bounds of that covenant could make one Jewish.


Alwyn

[Kendall Down]

On 12/03/2012 17:11, Nobody wrote:

> You say Ismail was a bastard because he was born of a slave woman.

No, he was not a "bastard" in the modern sense, a term which carries the
idea of opprobrium. He was illegitimate - and to understand exactly what
that means you need to study the Nuzi law tablets or even the code of
Hammurabi, which come from the same geographical area and roughly the
same time period as Abraham.

Ishmael was a descendant of Abraham with his own status and his own
position in society, but he was not - nor could he be - the legitimate
heir, simply because his mother was not properly married to Abrham.

[Kendall Down]

On 12/03/2012 16:04, - .. -- Tim .-. wrote:

> Edward VII wasn't born until the 1800's! Henry VIII died in the 16th
> Century.

Rats. You're right. Edward VI?

[Kendall Down]

On 12/03/2012 19:47, Alwyn wrote:

> I believe the Jews would say that it was the covenant that God made with
> Abraham that established the Jewish people, and the circumcision of
> their males was a sign of their dedication to God. I do not see how
> circumcision outside the bounds of that covenant could make one Jewish.

I agree with you - but nevertheless, it is a delightful thought that the
Arabs, by virtue of circumcision, have just as much a divine mandate to
Palestine as the Jews!

[- .. -- Tim .-.]

On 12/03/2012 21:01, Kendall Down wrote:
> On 12/03/2012 16:04, - .. -- Tim .-. wrote:
>
>> Edward VII wasn't born until the 1800's! Henry VIII died in the 16th
>> Century.
>
> Rats. You're right. Edward VI?
>

That's the one!

Tim.

[- .. -- Tim .-.]

But of course! God meant them to SHARE it!

Tim.

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

"Kendall Down" <kkd...@nwtv.co.uk> wrote in message
news:jjlog0$dnr$2...@dont-email.me...

Wrong again, Ken.

"On the day Isaac was weaned, Abraham held a big feast. 9 Sarah saw that
Abraham's son by Hagar the Egyptian was laughing at Isaac. 10 She said to
Abraham, "Get rid of this slave and her son, because this slave's son must
never share the inheritance with my son Isaac." 11 Abraham was upset by this
because of his son Ishmael. 12 But God said to Abraham, "Don't be upset
about the boy and your slave. Listen to what Sarah says because THROUGH
ISAAC your descendants will carry on your name. 13 Besides, I will make the
slave's son into a nation also, because he is your child."
14 Early the next morning Abraham took bread and a container of water and
gave them to Hagar, putting them on her shoulder. He also gave her the boy
and sent her on her way." Gen 21:8-14 (GW)

So Abraham booted her out along with Ishmael who became a principle fore
runner of a people called Arabs.

Jeff...

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

"- .. -- Tim .-." <timr...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message

news:cuCdnZ4-WbU1E8PS...@bt.com...

Not in this dispensation....for Sarah said to Abraham "Get rid of this slave

and her son, because this slave's son must never share the inheritance with
my son Isaac." 11 Abraham was upset by this because of his son Ishmael. 12
But God said to Abraham, "Don't be upset about the boy and your slave.

Listen to what Sarah says because through Isaac your descendants will carry
on your name."
Gen 21:10-12 (GW)

Sorry fellows!!

Jeff...

[John]

On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 08:01:35 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic

Traditionalist" <jnhickling[remove]@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>

>"- .. -- Tim .-." <timr...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:cuCdnZ4-WbU1E8PS...@bt.com...

Ken:

>>> I agree with you - but nevertheless, it is a delightful thought that the
>>> Arabs, by virtue of circumcision, have just as much a divine mandate to
>>> Palestine as the Jews!
>>
>> But of course! God meant them to SHARE it!
>
>Not in this dispensation....for Sarah said to Abraham "Get rid of this slave
>and her son, because this slave's son must never share the inheritance with
>my son Isaac." 11 Abraham was upset by this because of his son Ishmael. 12
>But God said to Abraham, "Don't be upset about the boy and your slave.
>Listen to what Sarah says because through Isaac your descendants will carry
>on your name."
>Gen 21:10-12 (GW)

Tell me you're joking please. A woman tells a bloke what to do and
God encourages it. What is the world comiing too!!

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

"John" <truths...@ymail.com> wrote in message
news:127ul71em5b3itkmu...@4ax.com...

The Bible doe not joke, John.
Isaac obtained the inheritance blessing not Ishmael !

> A woman tells a bloke what to do and
> God encourages it. What is the world comiing too!!

LOL!
Now don't get too upset John, women now and then do sometimes have an idea
worth listening to...but as in the Scriptures it is more a case of an
exception sooner then the rule.

Remember! apart from this one-off example...."Sarah obeyed Abraham
[following his guidance and acknowledging his headship over her by] calling
him lord (master, leader, authority). And you are now her true daughters if
you do right and let nothing terrify you [not giving way to hysterical fears
or letting anxieties unnerve you].
1 Peter 3:6 Amplified Bible (AMP)

Amen!


Jeff...

Wives to Cultivate Inner Beauty
" 1-4The same goes for you wives: Be good wives to your husbands, responsive
to their needs. There are husbands who, indifferent as they are to any words
about God, will be captivated by your life of holy beauty. What matters is
not your outer appearance-the styling of your hair, the jewelry you wear,
the cut of your clothes-but your inner disposition.
4-6Cultivate inner beauty, the gentle, gracious kind that *God delights*
in. The holy women of old were beautiful before God that way, and were good,
loyal wives to their husbands. Sarah, for instance, taking care of Abraham,
would address him as "my dear husband." You'll be true daughters of Sarah if
you do the same" 1 Peter 3:3-4 [The Message (MSG)]

Hoorah! then John?

[Nobody]

On Mar 13, 8:01 am, "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
<jnhickling[remove]@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> "- .. -- Tim .-." <timrea...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in messagenews:cuCdnZ4-WbU1E8PS...@bt.com...

Why lie to yourself Jeff?

The covenant was made between God, Abraham (pbuh) and his seed. This
is shown in one of your previous posts as quoted from Genesis 17 'This

is My covenant, which ye shall keep, between Me and you and thy seed

after thee..." The verse clearly shows to include the seed of Abraham,
which is both Ismail and Isaac (pbut). Showing scripture Sarah
excluding Ismail from the covenant, does not mean God excluded Ismail
from the covenant.

[Nobody]

"Not properly married"; With all do respect the term is nonsense. How
does one enter into a marriage which is not a proper marriage, and do
you have Biblical scripture for this non proper marriage of Abraham
and Hagar?

I just see this as another case of rejecting Biblical scripture as and
when the situation requires it.

[Kendall Down]

On 14/03/2012 18:40, Nobody wrote:

> "Not properly married"; With all do respect the term is nonsense. How
> does one enter into a marriage which is not a proper marriage, and do
> you have Biblical scripture for this non proper marriage of Abraham
> and Hagar?

The word is "due", not "do".

Where does it say in Scripture that Abraham *married* Hagar? Answer:
nowhere. Furthermore the Nuzi tablets make it plain that the arrangement
Sarah proposed did not constitute marriage within the legal framework of
the time.

> I just see this as another case of rejecting Biblical scripture as and
> when the situation requires it.

You can see it how you like. Scripture and knowledge are on my side.

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

"Nobody" <tos...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:60725fb6-a8db-4b3a...@n19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...

On Mar 13, 8:01 am, "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
<jnhickling[remove]@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> "- .. -- Tim .-." <timrea...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in
> messagenews:cuCdnZ4-WbU1E8PS...@bt.com...
>
> > On 12/03/2012 21:06, Kendall Down wrote:
>> >> I agree with you - but nevertheless, it is a delightful thought that
>> >> the
>> >> Arabs, by virtue of circumcision, have just as much a divine mandate
>> >> to
>> >> Palestine as the Jews!
>>>
>> > But of course! God meant them to SHARE it!
>>
>> Not in this dispensation....for Sarah said to Abraham "Get rid of this
>> slave
>> and her son, because this slave's son must never share the inheritance
>> with
>> my son Isaac." 11 Abraham was upset by this because of his son Ishmael.
>> 12
>> But God said to Abraham, "Don't be upset about the boy and your slave.
>> Listen to what Sarah says because through Isaac your descendants will
>> carry
>> on your name."
>> Gen 21:10-12 (GW)
>>
>> Sorry fellows!!

>Why lie to yourself Jeff?

The Bible does not lie, neither did Sarah in this matter.
"Get rid of this slave and her son, because this slave's son must NEVER
SHARE share the inheritance with
my son Isaac."
What does "Never share the inheritance" mean?
He was to be chopped out of the Will..as they might say.

> The covenant was made between God, Abraham (pbuh) and his seed. This
> is shown in one of your previous posts as quoted from Genesis 17 'This
> is My covenant, which ye shall keep, between Me and you and thy seed
> after thee..."

Yes! but through the his seed, Isaac, not Ishmael, he and his mother were
booted out of the family home and sent packing.
For " Sarah said to Abraham "Get rid of this slave

and her son, because this slave's son must never share the inheritance with
my son Isaac."

And although it made Abraham sad, Almighty God agreed with Sarah, so Abraham
booted Ishmael out of his home along with his mother into the wilderness
with the son whom Abraham had now disinherited from the blessing which
Isaac now had to the full. So he became the son who inherited the land also.
Ishmael received no inheritance from Abraham, he was cut out of the will, so
to speak.

> The verse clearly shows to include the seed of Abraham,
> which is both Ismail and Isaac (pbut). Showing scripture Sarah
> excluding Ismail from the covenant, does not mean God excluded Ismail
> from the covenant.

Of course it does because Almighty God agreed with Sarah and thus told
Abraham to throw Ishmael out of the family home along his his mother Hagar,
which he did.
No home, no inheretence, no land, no abode. So they "Go rid of this slave
and her son"

Jeff...

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

"Kendall Down" <kkd...@nwtv.co.uk> wrote in message

news:jjqtpa$er8$2...@dont-email.me...

> On 14/03/2012 18:40, Nobody wrote:
>
>> "Not properly married"; With all do respect the term is nonsense. How
>> does one enter into a marriage which is not a proper marriage, and do
>> you have Biblical scripture for this non proper marriage of Abraham
>> and Hagar?
>
> The word is "due", not "do".
>
> Where does it say in Scripture that Abraham *married* Hagar?

As she became his wife, God agreed to it, even though you weren't there to
give your personal blessing.

> Answer: nowhere.

Try: Gen 16:3 (KJV)

> Furthermore the Nuzi tablets make it plain that the arrangement Sarah
> proposed did not constitute marriage within the legal framework of the
> time.
>
>> I just see this as another case of rejecting Biblical scripture as and
>> when the situation requires it.

The Scripture is plain enough which Ken whishes to ignore.
"3 And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had
dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to
be HIS WIFE".
Gen 16:3 (KJV)
[Strong's Concordance agrees also]

It was good enough for Almighty God, but not for Kendall, just like so many
other things he so readily misunderstands.

> You can see it how you like. Scripture and knowledge are on my side.

But they aren't!
And you never seem to care about embarrassing yourself as your posts with
Gareth show time after time.

Jeff...
The excellent Bible Readings for Today.
Leviticus.............22
Psalms..............125-127
Luke.....................5

[Michael J Davis]

Nobody <tos...@gmail.com> was inspired to say

>
>Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I HAVE NOT YET RETURNED TO THE
>FATHER. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my
>Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' " (John 20:17)
>
>Does God have a God

Of course, do you think that God (as you see Him) doesn't recognise
Himself?

So why shouldn't one person of the Trinity not recognise Himself in the
Father?


"But the Counsellor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send
in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of
everything I have said to you." [John 14:26]

The Father sends the Holy Spirit in the *name* of Jesus!! We only
recognise those who are send in *the name of* those who are at least
equal to them!!

Does the Queen send people "in the name of the Prime Minister"? No! Our
ambassadors are sent in the name of the Queen, i.e. the senior person.

In the case of God; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-equal.

"When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the
Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he
will testify about me." [John 15:26]

Here Jesus claims to *have authority* to send another Person of the
Trinity - who, but God Himself, has authority to *send* God to people?

In the case you are quoting above, we see Jesus *in human capacity*
returning to His full glory.

Mike
--
Michael J Davis
See my story at...
http://www.trustsof.co.uk

<><
"God has privileged us in Christ Jesus to live above the ordinary human plane
of life. Those who want to be ordinary can do so, but as for me, I will not."
Smith Wigglesworth
<><

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

"Michael J Davis" <mjdu...@trustsof.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ZqNEw6Af...@trustsof.co.uk...

Not so, Mike, Christ will lose some of his present power and glory, when
the end finally comes, for he has to hand his authority & power back to the
Father, his God.
"24 Then the end will come. Christ will hand over the kingdom to God the
Father as he destroys every ruler, authority, and power.
25 Christ must rule until God has put every enemy under his control. 26 The
last enemy he will destroy is death.

27 Clearly, God has put everything under Christ's authority. When God says
that everything has been put under Christ's authority, this clearly excludes
God, since God has put everything under Christ's authority. 28 But when God
puts everything under Christ's authority, the Son will put himself under
God's authority, since God had put everything under the Son's authority.
Then God will be in control of everything" 1 Cor 15:23-28 (GW)
Christ's Father, Almighty God, will always be Supreme over Christ, God's
"Beloved Son" and so will be forever under his Father's authority.
Amen!

Jeff...