Soteria to take over search and rescue helicopters
Martin Richardson
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8506806.stm
What next - Mountain Bothies Association taken over by Travel Lodge?
Jim
being denied due to costs and cashflow.
Jhimmy
"Martin Richardson" <oake...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:13b13221-ce3a-42fb...@1g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
> Could this change the debate on free mountain rescue after 2012?
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8506806.stm
>
> What next - Mountain Bothies Association taken over by Travel Lodge?
Not being sarcastic, but what did walkers do before helicopters were ever
used in rescues? Stay at home praying for someone to invent a machine
that'll pluck them from a mountain in case of difficulties?
Having watched a few TV documentries about the rescues, does anyone have any
idea what percentage of "real" life/death situations helicopters manage? I'm
sick of watching a group of DoE kids being lifted out because 1 in the group
has been shivering.
Jhimmy
Mike 2
>
>On Tue, 9 Feb 2010 15:05:59 -0800 (PST), Martin Richardson
><oake...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>>Could this change the debate on free mountain rescue after 2012?
>>
>>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8506806.stm
>>
>>What next - Mountain Bothies Association taken over by Travel Lodge?
>It's certainly a very strange situation, and I can foresee rescues
>being denied due to costs and cashflow.
Does this mean the RAF Search & Rescue choppers and RAF Mountain
Rescue Teams pull back to their main role, just to mobilise for
crashed aircraft and military personnel ?
I know they look upon it as good PR and very good training exercises
helping civvys.
Have we almost reached the point to the end of free rescues from the
military ... or any organisation ?
Mike 2
Peter Clinch
> Having watched a few TV documentries about the rescues, does anyone have
> any idea what percentage of "real" life/death situations helicopters
> manage? I'm sick of watching a group of DoE kids being lifted out
> because 1 in the group has been shivering.
No idea about percentages, but helicopter missions I've seen were
taking people out with broken bones (including a suspected broken
back) from Craeg Smeggy, someone who'd just broken themselves
falling off Liatach, someone else who'd borken themselves falling
off the Cobbler. None of those were in the realm of someone
shivering.
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.c...@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
Peter Clinch
> Not being sarcastic, but what did walkers do before helicopters were
> ever used in rescues? Stay at home praying for someone to invent a
> machine that'll pluck them from a mountain in case of difficulties?
You just take the long way down with the MRT on the ground. Which
I think qualifies as "no fun for anybody".
Roger Chapman
>> It's certainly a very strange situation, and I can foresee rescues
>> being denied due to costs and cashflow.
>
> Does this mean the RAF Search & Rescue choppers and RAF Mountain
> Rescue Teams pull back to their main role, just to mobilise for
> crashed aircraft and military personnel ?
> I know they look upon it as good PR and very good training exercises
> helping civvys.
>
> Have we almost reached the point to the end of free rescues from the
> military ... or any organisation ?
I got the impression it was because the Sea Kings were 40 years old and
in urgent need of retirement. With the Government still holding to the
ridiculous notion that PFI is worth the extra cost because the
investment in new equipment is not considered public debt buying in the
service is the obvious choice with the added benefit (for the Labour
Party) of the distinct possibility of substantial contributions to party
funds from the beneficiaries of the policy.
Mike Clark
> It's certainly a very strange situation, and I can foresee rescues
> being denied due to costs and cashflow.
>
It seems to me to that to "expect a right to a rescue" is the main
problem. People should take more control over their circumstances and
also be prepared to accept the consequences.
Even given unlimited cash resources there are going to be many occasions
when things such as weather hamper the feasibility of a rescue. So
rescue is never going to be guaranteed.
There are some positive elements to that news bulletin, for a start the
plan is for the private helicopters to be more up to date and better
equipped for night time and bad weather flying than the current military
spec helicopters. I once spent a night in the Llanberis Mountain Rescue
post observing a rescue underway. At nightfall the RAF Sea King had to
abort the search because it wasn't equiped for night time low level
mountain flight whereas the police helicopter was able to continue
searching because it was fully equiped for night flying.
Mike
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
<\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
"> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | caving, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user" http://www.antibody.me.uk/
Mike Clark
Mike 2 <Mi...@wherever.co.uk> wrote:
> Does this mean the RAF Search & Rescue choppers and RAF Mountain
> Rescue Teams pull back to their main role, just to mobilise for
> crashed aircraft and military personnel ?
> I know they look upon it as good PR and very good training exercises
> helping civvys.
>
> Have we almost reached the point to the end of free rescues from the
> military ... or any organisation ?
>
> Mike 2
I suspect that with reductions in funding for the military and
increasing demands on their resources in places like Afghanistan and
Iraq that they might want to shift a higher proportion of their
resources to these other demands.
As for the discussion about it being "free", it never was "free", so its
more a question of where the funding comes from. Up until now its
largely come out of the defence and policing budgets.
Tom Crispin
wrote:
>On Wed, 10 Feb 2010 07:47:07 +0000, Jim <j...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>On Tue, 9 Feb 2010 15:05:59 -0800 (PST), Martin Richardson
>><oake...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Could this change the debate on free mountain rescue after 2012?
>>>
>>>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8506806.stm
>>>
>>>What next - Mountain Bothies Association taken over by Travel Lodge?
>
>>It's certainly a very strange situation, and I can foresee rescues
>>being denied due to costs and cashflow.
>
>Does this mean the RAF Search & Rescue choppers and RAF Mountain
>Rescue Teams pull back to their main role, just to mobilise for
>crashed aircraft and military personnel ?
I wondered about that! It seems quite an expense to have two search
and rescue services: one for military and one for civilian.
And how well will a civilian service cope with major emergency
airlifts such as Boscastle and Cockermouth?
If I understand the way Prestwick works correctly, there are five Sea
King crews with three SAR Sea King Helicopters. One crew is always on
duty, two crews on standby and two crews off duty. The duty crew can
be scrambled at a few moments notice, the standby crews within an
hour.
Gordon H
<p.j.c...@dundee.ac.uk> writes
>Jhimmy wrote:
>
>> Not being sarcastic, but what did walkers do before helicopters were
>>ever used in rescues? Stay at home praying for someone to invent a
>>machine that'll pluck them from a mountain in case of difficulties?
>
>You just take the long way down with the MRT on the ground. Which I
>think qualifies as "no fun for anybody".
>
>Pete.
Least of all the casualty!
End of National Service, fire service training in case of nukular war.
We had to pair off with a fellow Erk of equal weight, then take it in
turn to carry each other down a ladder from a 15ft flat roof using the
firemans' lift.
Guess which was more scary, carrying or being carried?
;-)
--
Gordon H
Remove "invalid" to reply
Jhimmy
"Peter Clinch" <p.j.c...@dundee.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:7tfr9u...@mid.individual.net...
But the question still stands, what did walkers do before helicopters? The
first time I went on the hills was probably in 1968. It's only in the last
15 years I've been conscious of large scale rescues with MRT and Helicopters
in support.
I'm not against helicopters in rescues, but it does seem to strike me that
many going on the hill "expect" an air rescue if they get into trouble. If
organisations promote the benefits of going walking, climbing potholing,
canoes etc, where is the extra support going to come from to deal with a 50%
increase in visitors? It'll soon come down to insurance for the individual.
My predictions for the year 2020.
1. Individual insurance will be compulsary for anyone participating in
sports.
2. Some MRT teams will be professional main due to the insurance.
3. Half the members in this group will be in jail because of not
participating in the Hill insurance scheme (HIS)
;-)
Jhimmy
Mike Clark
"Jhimmy" <cobalt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> But the question still stands, what did walkers do before helicopters?
People used to be more self reliant and also more accepting of danger
including death.
> The first time I went on the hills was probably in 1968. It's only in
> the last 15 years I've been conscious of large scale rescues with MRT
> and Helicopters in support.
Before mobile phones they had little opportunity to phone for a
helicopter!
>
> I'm not against helicopters in rescues, but it does seem to strike me
> that many going on the hill "expect" an air rescue if they get into
> trouble. If organisations promote the benefits of going walking,
> climbing potholing, canoes etc, where is the extra support going to
> come from to deal with a 50% increase in visitors? It'll soon come
> down to insurance for the individual.
Well for a start I would ban sponsored charity events of the above
nature.
>
> My predictions for the year 2020. 1. Individual insurance will be
> compulsary for anyone participating in sports. 2. Some MRT teams will
> be professional main due to the insurance. 3. Half the members in this
> group will be in jail because of not participating in the Hill
> insurance scheme (HIS)
>
> ;-)
> Jhimmy
I've already got annual insurance to cover my mountaineering in the alps
through the BMC. I doubt if it would cost much extra to extend coverage
to the UK?
Martin Richardson
>
> My predictions for the year 2020.
> 1. Individual insurance will be compulsary for anyone participating in
> sports.
> 2. Some MRT teams will be professional main due to the insurance.
> 3. Half the members in this group will be in jail because of not
> participating in the Hill insurance scheme (HIS)
>
> ;-)
> Jhimmy
No problem - I have seen the Shawshank Redemption - they wont spot the
microspikes on our boots.
Phil Cook
I don't think you could hide a mountaineering axe in a book though;
unless it was Audubon's Birds of America, and cutting an axe shaped
hole in that would be a crime probably worthy of capital punishment.
--
Phil Cook, last hill: Am Bodach in the Mamores on a sunny day :-)
pictures at http://www.therewaslight.co.uk soonish...
Bill Grey
"Mike Clark" <mrc7...@cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:298188e750....@mrc7acorn1.path.cam.ac.uk...
> Before mobile phones they had little opportunity to phone for a
> helicopter!
Let's not get think that walkers can just ring up for a helicopter. They
may call for assistance by dialing 999 (availability of signal
permitting)and get the police who in turn will either contact the MR teams
who between them (usually the police) will contact the helicopter rescue for
assistance.
Bill Grey
"Gordon H" <Gordo...@g3snx.demon.co.uk.invalid> wrote in message
news:yTp8ipEH...@g3snx.demon.co.uk...
Ah! Chorley - I remember it well :-)
Bill
Allan
1. I'm just waiting for the marketing arms of hill-related insurance
providers to hook into this to play on general fear.
2. Maybe those who pick up their mobile phones too readily to seek
assistance when out on the hills in distress will try a bit harder if
they find they have to pay (and maybe that would be "a good thing"?)
3. I've just booked a trip on Corsica's GR20 and insurance (and the word
helicopter features prominently in the insurance bumph) is a condition
of booking. That's OK with me. So why is it apparently so different in
the UK?
Chris Gilbert
> 3. I've just booked a trip on Corsica's GR20 and insurance (and the word
> helicopter features prominently in the insurance bumph) is a condition of
> booking. That's OK with me. So why is it apparently so different in the
> UK?
Probably because there is presently no cost model for the service in
the UK. As a 'free' service there is no requirement for an insurance
company to factor the likely cost of rescue into an insurance product.
If the service ever ceased being 'free' then it would happen.
Chris
--
Photography by Chris Gilbert
www.ravenseyegallery.co.uk
Peter Clinch
> 3. I've just booked a trip on Corsica's GR20 and insurance (and the word
> helicopter features prominently in the insurance bumph) is a condition
> of booking. That's OK with me. So why is it apparently so different in
> the UK?
A salient bit is "booked a trip". If you turn up in Corsica and meander
along GR20 I very much doubt you'll require proof of insurance before
they (whoever "they" might be, the local police?) let you start.
If you book a professionally guided trip in the UK I'd lay pretty good
odds that some insurance is factored in to the cost.
Tim Jackson
> Allan wrote:
>
> > 3. I've just booked a trip on Corsica's GR20 and insurance (and the word
> > helicopter features prominently in the insurance bumph) is a condition
> > of booking. That's OK with me. So why is it apparently so different in
> > the UK?
>
> A salient bit is "booked a trip". If you turn up in Corsica and meander
> along GR20 I very much doubt you'll require proof of insurance before
> they (whoever "they" might be, the local police?) let you start.
>
> If you book a professionally guided trip in the UK I'd lay pretty good
> odds that some insurance is factored in to the cost.
The professional guide will have insurance to cover the possibility that
a client might sue him, e.g. for negligence if there is an accident.
And the cost of that insurance will be one of the business overheads
that are built into the prices charged.
But will a UK guide insist that the client take out insurance to cover
rescue costs?
Companies selling *overseas* holidays (including walking holidays) will
insist that you have full travel insurance. Rescue coverage is only one
of the reasons; medical cover and repatriation if you fall ill are
important too.
A company selling an overseas holiday will obviously try to sell you
their favoured policy, so they can claim the commission on it. To
convince you, they will no doubt emphasise the helicopter rescue cover,
which might not be covered by alternative policies. But they should
accept it if you buy suitable insurance somewhere else. (I think they
might be obliged to let you have that choice - was there a ruling by the
OFT or something?)
--
Tim Jackson
ne...@timjackson.invalid
(Change '.invalid' to '.plus.com' to reply direct)
Gordon H
<bill...@btinternet.com> writes
>
>"Gordon H" <Gordo...@g3snx.demon.co.uk.invalid> wrote in message
>news:yTp8ipEH...@g3snx.demon.co.uk...
>> In message <7tfrbo...@mid.individual.net>, Peter Clinch
>> <p.j.c...@dundee.ac.uk> writes
>>>You just take the long way down with the MRT on the ground. Which I think
>>>qualifies as "no fun for anybody".
>>>
>>>Pete.
>>
>> Least of all the casualty!
>>
>> End of National Service, fire service training in case of nukular war.
>>
>> We had to pair off with a fellow Erk of equal weight, then take it in turn
>> to carry each other down a ladder from a 15ft flat roof using the
>> firemans' lift.
>> Guess which was more scary, carrying or being carried?
>> ;-)
>> --
>> Gordon H
>
>Ah! Chorley - I remember it well :-)
>Bill
>
And Moreton-in-the-Marsh.
Broadback
rescue people, what a a waste!
--
Please reply to group,emails to designated
address are never read.
Judith
Who'd be on the poster covering the escape tunnel? J*lia Br*db*ry?
(I daren't print her name in full; just a mention it seems to bring
some urw-ers out in a sweat).
Judith
Roger Chapman
> Who'd be on the poster covering the escape tunnel? J*lia Br*db*ry?
>
> (I daren't print her name in full; just a mention it seems to bring
> some urw-ers out in a sweat).
I dreamed about her last night despite the asterisks. (Or was it because
of the asterisks?)
Gordon H
<ro...@nospam.zetnet.co.uk> writes
No such luck here, but never mind, she's now on every TV programme.
PeterC
Perhaps the asterisks were actually fig leaves.
--
Peter.
2x4 - thick plank; 4x4 - two of 'em.
Phil Cook
I've just seen her wearing something totally inapropriate on a
drizzly/rainy stroll in Shropshire on Countryfile. A LOUD ORANGE down
jacket. <sheesh> Some way into the item you could see the creases in
the sleeves at the elbows getting rather wet and losing loft.
Those jackets are just too warm for walking in anyway, they are fine
for sitting around a chilly campsite or slipping on whilst you have a
bite to eat - when the temperature is sub zero. Rain is not in their
intended weather envelope.
Martin Richardson
> Who'd be on the poster covering the escape tunnel? J*lia Br*db*ry?
>
> (I daren't print her name in full; just a mention it seems to bring
> some urw-ers out in a sweat).
>
> Judith
Is she the one who has the annoying habit of adding a stone to every
cairn she passes. That makes me sweat.
