Census data
Ewan Scott
which is never used.
Since 1999 the SA has being trying miserably to gat Groups to provide names
and addresses and ages (all data which it claims is non-sensitive) of all
members.
First it was because the insurers wanted the data to be kept - that has been
debunked.
Now it is to analyse member flow.
Can anyone tell me what earthly use local membership flow data in a Group is
to Gilwell? What could they possibly do with it that would have any impact
at the Group?
Gilwell is now getting shirty and threatening to dismiss Leaders who do not
fill out the membership data.
So has anyone any idea where the replacement Leaders are going to come from?
I do not have the data available in a format that is readily transferrable.
In fact, I can't say that I've ever seen any standard for for returning this
data from Groups.
Ewan Scott
Neil Williams
> First it was because the insurers wanted the data to be kept - that has been
> debunked.
> Now it is to analyse member flow.
I would assume it is so they can try to catch people out who
fraudulently[1] under-declare numbers?
[1] I don't think words should be minced on this one - deliberate
under-declaration is fraud.
Neil
Chris.5th
i have a specific clause on my forms (as suggested by gilwell) that
keeps the data in-house and must not be passed to 3rd parties.
I am very doubtful about gilwell's ability to manage this data
securely.
the two relevant sections are:
I give explicit consent to the holding of information of my child’s
health; disabilities; religion/faith; race/ethnic origin again for
scouting purposes.
• I give/do not give consent to the disclosure of any information held
to third parties associated with the Scout Movement in order that they
may offer products and services which may be of interest.
when parents fill in a form specific to the group, i would suggest
that they expect that data to be kept in-house.
Ewan Scott
"Neil Williams" <pace...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f2890c62-ae2a-47e1...@k17g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
anyone doing so.
However, the collection of this data does nothing to prevent the
underdeclaration. They just didn't joint till 7th February...
Ewan Scott
Chris.5th
> "Neil Williams" <pacer...@gmail.com> wrote in message
i always round up... i budget for 28 beavers, 46 cubs, 48 scouts, 40
explorers
if i am unsure about somebody, i add them anyway... just in case. it
seems fair.
Al
news:JpOdnZDazZbx4NHW...@bt.com...
> Every year the Census gets longer, more data, more information - most of
> which is never used.
>
> Since 1999 the SA has being trying miserably to gat Groups to provide
> names and addresses and ages (all data which it claims is non-sensitive)
> of all members.
>
> First it was because the insurers wanted the data to be kept - that has
> been debunked.
> Now it is to analyse member flow.
>
> Can anyone tell me what earthly use local membership flow data in a Group
> is to Gilwell? What could they possibly do with it that would have any
> impact at the Group?
>
Yes I can.
The numbers always seemed to be consistent, so therefore policies must be
right. The view was we have members and are keeping members, even growing
slightly was the view. In fact when they looked closely at some groups, they
discovered that the membership was almost completely changing over a few
years although over all numbers were remaining fairly consistent. Lots left
and lots joined which created a false impression. They just want to know
what's really happening. This is something I am involved in locally and its
all we are doing with the info, nothing more.
It has nothing to do with under declaring numbers, although it may be a side
effect.
Al
Ewan Scott
>> Can anyone tell me what earthly use local membership flow data in a Group
>> is to Gilwell? What could they possibly do with it that would have any
>> impact at the Group?
>>
>
> Yes I can.
>
> The numbers always seemed to be consistent, so therefore policies must be
> right. The view was we have members and are keeping members, even growing
> slightly was the view. In fact when they looked closely at some groups,
> they discovered that the membership was almost completely changing over a
> few years although over all numbers were remaining fairly consistent. Lots
> left and lots joined which created a false impression. They just want to
> know what's really happening. This is something I am involved in locally
> and its all we are doing with the info, nothing more.
>
> It has nothing to do with under declaring numbers, although it may be a
> side effect.
Okay. Now justify that. What difference is it going to make? I'll warrant
not one iota.
Between Beavers and Scouts we see probably a 75% turnover who never make it
to Scouts. There are a number of reasons.
1/ Between Beavers and Cubs there is a clash with Football.
2/ Some Beavers just don't like Beavers and quit.
3/ Some Cubs just don't like Cubs and quit.
4/ Between Cubs and Scouts there is a clash with the Swimming Club.
5/ Some Cubs get away with things in Cubs that they know won't be tolerated
at Scouts.
6/ I've disciplined Cubs from time to time, that puts some of them off -
tough.
7/ When they get to Scouts peer pressure kicks in and sometimes we never see
them because of peer pressure.
In Scouts we lose some because they develop other interests. I have no issue
with that at all.
In Scouts we lose some because they just don't get it.
In Scouts there are some I've been trying to get shot of since they were in
beavers and the little buggers simply won't quit.
What more does the SA need to know?
Even if they know this what the **** are they going to do with it?
There is absolutely nothing that they can do to help change the membership
turnover at a Group, nothing, nada, zip.
Therefore the information is just collected for information's sake. It has
no real value other in the grandiose schemes that float about in the
ether....
Is that turnover an issue? No. Because we are running at capacity. In fact
we have 40 Beavers on the books, and a regular 37, Cubs are full, Scouts are
Full. The next two Groups are also running at their capacity. There is one
within travelling distance but it only has Scouts and is about capacity too.
The ONLY real issue that we have is a lack of Leaders and Gilwell are
threatening to cancel appointments over an issue that has absolutely no
bearing on the running of Scouting at all - how bloody ridiculous is that?
Ewan Scott
Chris.5th
>
>
> The ONLY real issue that we have is a lack of Leaders and Gilwell are
> threatening to cancel appointments over an issue that has absolutely no
> bearing on the running of Scouting at all - how bloody ridiculous is that?
>
> Ewan Scott
in london, we are asked to provide quarterly cenus figures. it pees
the fuff out of me. ok, it only takes me 30 seconds as i now our
figures off the top of my head but it is soooo pointless. it is meant
to target need and provide support.
12 months of 45 scouts and one leader and no bugger has yet turned up
from greater london region to help me!
Al
Ewan,
I was telling you what I know not saying something will definitely happen,
or claiming anything.
I have several roles so I am well aware of the Cricket, Football, Swimming
clubs, peer pressure, BF's and GF's all affecting membership, and everything
else you mention. It certainly happens locally in some groups, however in
others it does not. I believe this is partly because of social demographics.
However if I was in a similar position, would I check the facts of the
situation before doing something or do it because I think it is the case. I
would check its the real situation first! I am sure you would as well.
Al
Ewan Scott
"Chris.5th" <ch...@elmer.me.uk> wrote in message
news:b5a5103a-5e47-4525...@22g2000yqr.googlegroups.com...
If they cannot prove that they have a purpose and effective use for the
figures go tell them to take a hike.
I feel that it may be time to break out the Jolly Roger...
Ewan Scott
Chris.5th
> If they cannot prove that they have a purpose and effective use for the
> figures go tell them to take a hike.
>
> I feel that it may be time to break out the Jolly Roger...
>
> Ewan Scott
i was once told by a very wise fellow to choose the ditch that you
want to die in...
i care v little for my 30 seconds once every 3 months... i can just
do it... i will keep my powder dry and wait for a fight worth having!
rocoho
record all adult appointment holder , all occassional helpers and all
youth members on the database a valuable asset .
Daniel Smith
And legally if we provide this data we are breaking the law...
well unless whoever keeps the data in your group is individually
registered as a data controller with the information commissioner
scout groups are exempt from registering this as they are a small
society whose records are used solely for the running of the group.
however groups with this exemption are not allowed to pass data on to
anyone whether they are registered as a data controller or not.
if i was registered it would be legal as gilwell are registered too but
as im working under the exemption i cannot pass data on atall..
Im no expert in the finer points of the data protection act but as far
as i know this is the situation....
unless somone here can point to somthing that allows this then i will
have a problem with passing sensitive data to gilwell for the census.
(numbers and other statistics dont count as sensitive data, the names
addresses and ages of all my members do!)
rocoho
> as i know this is the situation....
>
> unless somone here can point to somthing that allows this then i will
> have a problem with passing sensitive data to gilwell for the census.
> (numbers and other statistics dont count as sensitive data, the names
> addresses and ages of all my members do!)
As usual this topic will run and run . I doubt that the legals at
gilwell have got it wrong and they are legally entitled to the info .
should they need to have it is another matter .
I understand names and address age is not classed as sensitive data
where it is used for membership purpose.
Membership of a group also includes membership of the uk SA hence
they can probably have the data. You do pass a membership fee thro
district , thro county to hq
It is asked to be collected at census as agent, they do not ask for it
to be taken from your records. though I guess most that do so supply
it from records.
MatSav
"rocoho" <rr19...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6d964fc6-8f7d-4624...@z41g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
>
>> as i know this is the situation....
>>
>> unless somone here can point to somthing that allows this then
>> i will
>> have a problem with passing sensitive data to gilwell for the
>
> Membership of a group also includes membership of the uk SA
> hence
> they can probably have the data. You do pass a membership fee
> thro
> district , thro county to hq
> It is asked to be collected at census as agent, they do not ask
> for it
> to be taken from your records. though I guess most that do so
> supply
> it from records.
>
My Group doesn't take data from our records. We collect the data
from individuals each year, in January, on a separate form, and
tell parents that the data is for the District, not the Group.
Our biggest problem is the ethnic origin data - some parents have
refused to provide that information, which leaves the census
figures unreconciled. We pass the raw data to the District - if
they choose to make a guess as to the ethnic origin, in order to
fully reconcile the figures, that's their choice.
--
MatSav
HQSpy
branch of the Tufty club as a nipper, my details were sent to HQ.
Kids are joining the local branch of a national organisation and as
such, the national HQ is perfectly entitled to know the names and
addressses of all its members.
Who at HQ is threatening to sack leaders who (wrongly) fail to provide
them with information they are justly entitled to? Where can we find
this threat published?
Paul Harris
<832d2878-b16a-4508...@o28g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
rocoho <rr19...@hotmail.com> writes
>Could the wanting of names and addresses be because " they" want to
>record all adult appointment holder , all occassional helpers and all
>youth members on the database a valuable asset .
>
actually being passed up the line to HQ by Districts and Counties
especially if on hard copy.
Apart from that if HQ are asking for it they ought to be able to explain
why they want it to stop all this guessing going on about what will
happen to the data and the reasons for collecting it.
--
Paul Harris
Neil Williams
> Apart from that if HQ are asking for it they ought to be able to explain
> why they want it to stop all this guessing going on about what will
> happen to the data and the reasons for collecting it.
Should they?
I might be devil's advocating to some point, but surely they have a
right to know who their members are even if they don't actually have a
use for it at present or only envisage one in the future?
Neil
Ewan Scott
> Could the wanting of names and addresses be because " they" want to
> record all adult appointment holder , all occassional helpers and all
> youth members on the database a valuable asset .
>
They should already have all adults.
How is the youth membership a valuable asset?
Ewan Scott
Ewan Scott
themselves joining the Scout Association and frankly from the behaviour of
most adults, neither do they. To my mind the young people are members of
the Group and the Group is the member of the Association.
I object vehemently to the collection of data for no particular reason, or
for a reason which cannot be substantiated.
If the data is not already on an electronic database, and for most it isn't,
then collating it and forwarding it in an accurate form is time consuming.
Time spent on something with no purpose that would be better spent in some
other way.
Even if the data is held digitally, if there is no purpose in its use, if it
is not necessary to the running of the organisation, and no-one has shown
that it is, and the fact that for 11 years of asking it has not been
complied with and it has had no impact upon Scouting tend to support the
idea that it has no purpose, then we should not be passing that information
on.
Ewan Scott
Ewan Scott
If there is no purpose that benefits the Group then what is the point?
They have lied once - it is for the insurers - the email that I have
debunks that. So what exactly do they think they can achieve by adding more
paperwork, more data to the pile they already have?
If the data, as is said elsewhere doesn't go past County, then I'd love to
know what County intend doing with it. I have asked the question.
Ewan Scott
Ewan Scott
"HQSpy" <scoutw...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:f0af4a15-371a-4e60...@p8g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
First of all 99.9% of people join their Scout GROUP, they have no objection
to data being held by the Scout Group. When that data leaves the control of
the group they begin to have reservations - the majority of OH/AA forms that
I see do not wits to be contacted or to have their data forwarded to a third
party.
So, no, they are not entitles to know. Furthermore, they are supposed to be
assisting us, not making work for us. If this data collection has no purpose
then it should not be carried out, morally it is wrong and I suspect that
legally it is wrong.
<quote>
In accordance with Policy, Organisation & Rules, rule 3.5, "A list of the
names and addresses of Members in the Group at the date of the annual census
must be collected by the Group and passed to the District Secretary who in
turn will pass a copy to the County Secretary."
The list of Group Members has been requested every year since 1999.
The reason for this is to allow Districts and also Counties to analyse along
with the census numbers the flow of young people from section to section.
The issue with just having the numbers means that it can't be seen that the
10 Cubs counted last year are the same 10 Scouts this year.
It is also to assist with local membership management, to assist with
specific local communication purposes, and to provide a cross check on the
accuracy of the census return. Initially it was also due to pressure from
the Association's insurers to support the assessment of premiums and the
validity of claims. The last reason is now less of an issue.
The argument about the Data Protection Act has no standing, as the movement
of information within the same Organisation is perfectly fine and does not
contravene the Data Protection Act. In addition to this, the information
request is not classed as sensitive data and if someone was that keen to
find the information, they would be able to, as much of the information is
already in the public domain. If a District or County were to pass the
information to someone outside of The Scout Association, then this would be
breaking the Data Protection Act.
If Groups still withholds the information, then ultimately the Leader(s)
could find themselves being suspended from the Movement for a breach of the
Association rules, however, clearly we do not wish to get into this
situation and every effort should be made to make sure this doesn't happen.
</end quote>
That came from the Information Centre in an official response to a question
asked by County.
What I want to know is what will be done with the data? If knowing the
membership flow is key information, then they MUST be able to do something
about it. I'll put money on it that there is sweet fanny adams that they
can do with the data. It is just pointless collection of data. It is not
beyond the wit of a fraudulent leader to adjust the data to suit his census
return.
They don't even make any real use of the current data collected from the
census so what chance this new data being used?
Ewan Scott
Dave
"MatSav" <matthew | dot | savage | at | dsl | dot | pipex | dot | com> wrote
in message news:34mdnf-om921TtHW...@pipex.net...
We do similar - but we ask the ethnic question based on the national
government census and ask parents to complete it - but advise them that
should they wish not to sat to tick 'other' - that is then their choice
rather than ours.
DaveB
Dave
"HQSpy" <scoutw...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:f0af4a15-371a-4e60...@p8g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
Ask your DC or District Sec or CC or County Sec. They will probably have a
letter.
Dave
rocoho
> "rocoho" <rr198...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:832d2878-b16a-4508...@o28g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Could the wanting of names and addresses be because " they" want to
> > record all adult appointment holder , all occassional helpers and all
> > youth members on the database a valuable asset .
>
> They should already have all adults.
Unless the district has entered all group officers , exec, occassional
helpers ,etc using AA forms , tis most unlikely , our district 's
09 census just compared with the database shows around 100 adults
within groups not on the database ( mostly support positions) and 35
on the database not on the 09 census, presumable mostly left and no
one at district actioned cancellations .
Still thats a minor problem compared to waiting for 07/08 08/09
district accounts and AGMs + restatement of charity registration .
>
> How is the youth membership a valuable asset?
a- provides the ability to directly mail
b - some have parents
c- as a pelude to collecting hq membership direct + gift to hq aid
from parents
d - once the system is running it would be quite feasable to have
national membership and local membership collection seperated .
e anything else and organisation does with 500000 names
rocoho
> "Neil Williams" <pacer...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:f475ed7f-9155-44cd...@22g2000yqr.googlegroups.com...> On 13 Jan, 00:01, Paul Harris <nos...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>
> >> Apart from that if HQ are asking for it they ought to be able to explain
> >> why they want it to stop all this guessing going on about what will
> >> happen to the data and the reasons for collecting it.
>
> > Should they?
>
> > I might be devil's advocating to some point, but surely they have a
> > right to know who their members are even if they don't actually have a
> > use for it at present or only envisage one in the future?
>
> When kids join a Scout Group they join a local Group.They don't see
> themselves joining the Scout Association and frankly from the behaviour of
> most adults, neither do they. To my mind the young people are members of
> the Group and the Group is the member of the Association.
maybe but that is not what POR says
3.1e.
When an individual becomes a Member that person becomes a member of a
Group, District and County (as appropriate). They also become a Member
of The Scout Association and of the World Organisation of the Scout
Movement.
hence a person is a member of the SA
Ewan Scott
But the SA is not the one keeping the data - it apparently goes no further
than County.
We have asked parents in the past and they have said they didn't want the SA
holding their data. I cannot and will not "sell" the idea when I do not
trust the SA commercially, or its IT department, and when there is no valid
reason for them having the data. There needs to be a reason for the data to
be passed on. I think it is 5.e.ii that clarifies the point. The transfer of
data has to be NECESSARY.
Ewan Scott
rocoho
> "rocoho" <rr198...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
its not passed on , its collected on their behalf as agent , the fact
that its stored county is inmaterial . persons are members as 3.1 for
wich you collect a per head membership fee
>
Ewan Scott
On Jan 13, 7:56 am, "Ewan Scott" <ewansc...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> "rocoho" <rr198...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:832d2878-b16a-4508...@o28g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Could the wanting of names and addresses be because " they" want to
> > record all adult appointment holder , all occassional helpers and all
> > youth members on the database a valuable asset .
>
> They should already have all adults.
Unless the district has entered all group officers , exec, occassional
helpers ,etc using AA forms , tis most unlikely , our district 's
09 census just compared with the database shows around 100 adults
within groups not on the database ( mostly support positions) and 35
on the database not on the 09 census, presumable mostly left and no
one at district actioned cancellations .
Still thats a minor problem compared to waiting for 07/08 08/09
district accounts and AGMs + restatement of charity registration .
>
> How is the youth membership a valuable asset?
a- provides the ability to directly mail
Direct mail what? Who from? Third parties? You mean that they can sell the
database to commercial concerns who can then bombard our youth members with
advertising for crap quality products in the name of Scouting.
Direct mail to advise them of events and opportunities so that they can put
pressure on their Leaders to take them to events and activities that the
leaders are not willing, able or disposed to take them to? I feel very
strongly about this as when a youngster I used to love getting my Cuv Scout
annual, but was always bitterly disappointed that we NEVER got to access a
fraction of the activities that were available to others. Direct mail like
that would be a disaster. If I already give 40 weekends a year to Scouting
how is pushing MORE opportunities that I cannot cover and my team cannot
cover going to help?
b - some have parents
And? Oh, you mean they can sell the same addresses to the same third party
people. They can inundate parents with mail from HQ that will go straight in
the bin, and which we will ultimately pay for in increased subscriptions. Or
they will seek funding from parents drawing that funding away from Groups.
c- as a pelude to collecting hq membership direct + gift to hq aid
from parents
As a prelude to a national database which someone has to keep up to date,
Good luck with that one.
d - once the system is running it would be quite feasable to have
national membership and local membership collection seperated .
e anything else and organisation does with 500000 names
Like sell them to third parties. Anything else?
The core of Scouting is the Scout Group, and the way to develop Scouting is
by developing strong Scout Groups. It is not by collecting data that is
never going to be used for any fit purpose. Regardless, if ANY of the above
reasons which you have guessed at are the case, then the SA is being
dishonest in disguising the request for the data as something else. If they
wish to develop a central database, then let them do so. How they are going
to make it work God alone knows, it would require a weekly update in some
cases. Membership is dynamic and changes from month to month. So I wish the
SA luck in making that happen. Or are the quarterly census returns being
sought in some places a prelude to what id to come?
Ewan Scott
Ewan Scott
"Dave" <dave.ba...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:g8qdnY_wLO6IHtDW...@eclipse.net.uk...
This was in a response to a mail from, I guess, our new County Secretary
trying to do his job, and who may not have that Nelson touch - no offense
intended Mark.
So if a County has not asked the question, they might not have the response.
Ewan Scott
rocoho
err!
There is alreadty a central national membership database! - it has
adults on it and the ability to put youth members , its acessable by
hq , county , districts , groups and individuals depending on the
authorised authority.
it can be updated at anytime , sure with volenteers , lots of entries
will be totally in accurate .
Ewan Scott
Yes there is and it doesn't get used. If it is inaccurate then it becomes
pointless.
It is/ will be impossible to mainatin a complete membership database without
imposing additional tasks on sectional or Group Leaders - that is not
supporting us, that is hindering us.
rocoho
Thats the nature of volenteers , App sec use it , Training admins
use , our county uses it for mailing etc, some groups use
If it is inaccurate then it becomes
> pointless.
>
> It is/ will be impossible to mainatin a complete membership database without
> imposing additional tasks on sectional or Group Leaders - that is not
> supporting us, that is hindering us.- Hide quoted text -
different tasks not additional , eg an app sec can make a change in
minutes rather than updating local rcord , posting info to hq etc .
It would not surprise me if it does fail by the wayside if there is a
lot of negative response form gropus and DC do not support it
Dave
That is true.
I don't know who it went to . I got a copy, but whether it was sent wider
than West Yorks I do not know.
And don't blame Mark - I did ask the question based on the fact of not
finalising figures until they are reconciled against a register.
What the line to take on those failing/refusing. So blame me if you wish,
although I'm sure there are others who may have asked too.
I do know that the County Secretary does require the registers this year and
that in the past they have asked for them to remain in the District.
Dave
rocoho
> "Ewan Scott" <ewansc...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1OWdnd_cqdAGEtDW...@bt.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Dave" <dave.barwic...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:g8qdnY_wLO6IHtDW...@eclipse.net.uk...
>
> >> "HQSpy" <scoutwatc...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
If its not forth coming from the districts to any significant
degree , then there is nowt they can do except close every group that
fails , and thats not going to happen , - serious damage to the
revenue stream and a lot of adverse publicity . so requiring is one
thing , getting them is another.
A good reason to have it up date continually on the database then its
already available , with no additional work .
Ewan Scott
>>
>> So if a County has not asked the question, they might not have the
>> response.
>>
>> Ewan Scott
>>
>
> That is true.
>
> I don't know who it went to . I got a copy, but whether it was sent wider
> than West Yorks I do not know.
>
> And don't blame Mark - I did ask the question based on the fact of not
> finalising figures until they are reconciled against a register.
For God's sake. Have you any idea how much extra work that is going to
create where the register is not maintained digitally? And anyway, if somone
is fraudulent enough to give short figures, then all they do is have a short
register.
> What the line to take on those failing/refusing. So blame me if you wish,
> although I'm sure there are others who may have asked too.
What line to take. Well first of all some honesty would be good. This is a
bit like buying a new bit of technology, just because it is new. Most of us
have a computer in our home that has gretaer capability than NASA had when
they put a man on the moon. Yet I'd warrant that none of us use it to its
capacity. Every day people buy pnones with gizmos that do this and that,
that they will never use, we have bcome used to redundant facilities being
built in to everything.
If this data is collected, who is going to analyse it, as that is what they
say it is for, who is going to compare about 5,000 names, and ages against
the census? Who is going to compare this year's against next year's and make
note of the leakage? I'll tell you when I get my response from County.
I detest waste of resources. I detest work being created for no purpose.
You tell me what line should be taken for a refusal to agree to a waste of
time and resources? Withdrawal of appointments?
Again, I say, if The SA has the volunteers in reserve to fill the gaps where
there are resignations and withdrawals, then why in Hell's name can they not
help fill the existing vacancies?
If they have to take such drastic action. If they have to use such threats,
or promises even, surely there is something inherrently wrong with the
system they are trying to impose?
If it were popular. If it were valid. If people believed in it there would
be no need for such action. It is time that the SA looked inwards and just
stopped all the high tech, management style approach and got back to its
roots, playing the game of Scouting.
> I do know that the County Secretary does require the registers this year
> and that in the past they have asked for them to remain in the District.
They have required them in the past but many Districts have refused, or have
been unable to pass on the data because many Groups have been unwilling or
have been unable to pass on the data.
I'm sorry. I thought that GAGS made a mistake in resigning. I thought that
Marc made a mistake in resigning. I find myself absolutely vehemently
opposed to the collection of this data without any real purpose, without any
real guarantee as to its use, and without any tangible or intangible
benefits to the Groups. Our new CC said that he was going to address issues
and help people at grass roots. That he would deal with our problems and
make life easier for us. We shall see.
Oh, and by the way, for the past 15 years I have always paid more capitation
than we needed to as we have always had losses in February for some reasons.
I have always included my Exec and my Skills helpers on the census. Anyone
doing a head count at Group would find it hard to find as many heads as we
have on the census. Yet not a million miles from me I know of two Groups who
openly admit to short numbers (but not this year I suspect), and I had one
DC tell me that I must be the only GSL who declared everyone I was supposed
to declare. That is a dire indictment of fellow Leaders, and I have no time
for frauds and cheats. But making work for Groups is not the way to deal
with them.
Ewan Scott
Al
> themselves joining the Scout Association and frankly from the behaviour of
> most adults, neither do they. To my mind the young people are members of
> the Group and the Group is the member of the Association.
>
And isn't that the route of so many problems?
I really could not disagree more.
They join the Scout movement, they belong to a group which provides delivery
amongst other things.
What remains common is that they have joined a movement, the SA are the
governing body of.
It has become my preference now to emphasize the worldwide movement they are
joining when I hand over the Scout membership award. To me its the most
important badge they will ever wear, and I make sure they know that. The
4th Law says "A Scout belongs to the world-wide family of Scouts". It does
not say they belong to a group and there is nothing else out there.
Al
GAGS
> "HQSpy" <scoutwatc...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:f0af4a15-371a-4e60...@p8g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Someone tell me what the problem is here? When I joined he local
> > branch of the Tufty club as a nipper, my details were sent to HQ.
>
> > Kids are joining the local branch of a national organisation and as
> > such, the national HQ is perfectly entitled to know the names and
> > addressses of all its members.
>
> > Who at HQ is threatening to sack leaders who (wrongly) fail to provide
> > them with information they are justly entitled to? Where can we find
> > this threat published?
>
> First of all 99.9% of people join their Scout GROUP, they have no objection
> to data being held by the Scout Group. When that data leaves the control of
> the group they begin to have reservations - the majority of OH/AA forms that
> I see do not wits to be contacted or to have their data forwarded to a third
> party.
They may well have no objection to data being held by district or
county or HQ or the tufty club!
People only have reservations when data goes to places/people which
they haven't given consent/permission to receive.
>
> So, no, they are not entitles to know. Furthermore, they are supposed to be
> assisting us, not making work for us. If this data collection has no purpose
> then it should not be carried out, morally it is wrong and I suspect that
> legally it is wrong.
Depends.
>
> <quote>
> In accordance with Policy, Organisation & Rules, rule 3.5, "A list of the
> names and addresses of Members in the Group at the date of the annual census
> must be collected by the Group and passed to the District Secretary who in
> turn will pass a copy to the County Secretary."
Straight-forward. One can reasonably assume from this that this is
done for 'membership purposes'. There is no problem with this
(legally). An organisation can do this and members accept that it can
do this (or it's a condition of membership).
>
> The list of Group Members has been requested every year since 1999.
>
> The reason for this is to allow Districts and also Counties to analyse along
> with the census numbers the flow of young people from section to section.
> The issue with just having the numbers means that it can't be seen that the
> 10 Cubs counted last year are the same 10 Scouts this year.
Plausible.
>
> It is also to assist with local membership management, to assist with
> specific local communication purposes, and to provide a cross check on the
> accuracy of the census return. Initially it was also due to pressure from
> the Association's insurers to support the assessment of premiums and the
> validity of claims. The last reason is now less of an issue.
Plausible.
>
> The argument about the Data Protection Act has no standing, as the movement
> of information within the same Organisation is perfectly fine and does not
> contravene the Data Protection Act.
That's correct and it's also incorrect?
'Within the same organisation'.
In (charity) law groups, districts, counties, HQ are separate
entities. They are not the SAME organisation. They are an association
of organisations.
Data collected for the membership purposes of the 1st Anywhere Scout
Group must remain within that Group.It's okay to transfer your
membership records from Beavers to Cubs when a yp transfer section
because that's within the same organisation. It's not okay to transfer
them outside to the district.
> In addition to this, the information
> request is not classed as sensitive data
Irrelevant. The Act relates to 'data' not just sensitive data.
Names, addresses, ages, contact details, etc are data.
> and if someone was that keen to
> find the information, they would be able to, as much of the information is
> already in the public domain.
Irrelevant.
> If a District or County were to pass the
> information to someone outside of The Scout Association, then this would be
> breaking the Data Protection Act.
Depends on the registration status and the data involved.
>
> If Groups still withholds the information, then ultimately the Leader(s)
> could find themselves being suspended from the Movement for a breach of the
> Association rules, however, clearly we do not wish to get into this
> situation and every effort should be made to make sure this doesn't happen.
That's perfectly okay as that's simply an organisation rule/policy.
>
> </end quote>
>
> That came from the Information Centre in an official response to a question
> asked by County.
It can be easily misinterpreted.
Let's be clear here.
The SA, county and district are asking people in groups to act as
agents and collect data from members on their behalf. Not a problem.
As long as people do that!
I.e. if you're that 'agent' you go out and collect that data. You go
to a member (or for someone u16 their parent/guardian) and say: 'The
SA, county, district want to collect information about you - name,
age, address, etc - for their census. Is that okay and please can you
let me have it?'
That's within the law. You are acting for the stated organisations -
it's clear to the person giving the data that that is so because
you've told them - and your collecting the data they've requested from
the person/member.
What would be illegal is not to go to the member and do the above, but
simply open up your group records and transfer data from those records
into the census. To do that the group needs to be registered.
>
> What I want to know is what will be done with the data? If knowing the
> membership flow is key information, then they MUST be able to do something
> about it. I'll put money on it that there is sweet fanny adams that they
> can do with the data. It is just pointless collection of data. It is not
> beyond the wit of a fraudulent leader to adjust the data to suit his census
> return.
Your opinion. I'm sure the SA will have a different one.
>
> They don't even make any real use of the current data collected from the
> census so what chance this new data being used?
:-)
GAGS
Neil Williams
> First of all 99.9% of people join their Scout GROUP, they have no objection
> to data being held by the Scout Group.
Is that really how they see it? Or do they, having little
understanding of our structure (which is as it is largely for historic
reasons - I expect if we founded it now on a top-down basis it
wouldn't be like that at all), join "the Scouts", which might be a
local branch just like a local branch of Tesco, say?
Neil
Neil Williams
> We do similar - but we ask the ethnic question based on the national
> government census and ask parents to complete it - but advise them that
> should they wish not to sat to tick 'other' - that is then their choice
> rather than ours.
Good idea. I in principle normally refuse to answer such questions or
choose "other", because I don't believe they should be asked, any more
than we should have eye colour or height on an application form. They
are divisive, not inclusive, by their very nature.
Neil
Peter Sheppard
> helpers ,etc using AA forms , tis most unlikely , our district 's
> 09 census just compared with the database shows around 100 adults
> within groups not on the database ( mostly support positions) and 35
> on the database not on the 09 census, presumable mostly left and no
> one at district actioned cancellations .
If they've had a CRB in the last 2-3 years they will be on the database!
They just might not have a role linking them to a particular location.
Found out by entering Network members who were subsequently flagged up as
duplicates, having had CRBs sent in by their district when they turned 18 as
Explorers.
Neil Williams
> For God's sake. Have you any idea how much extra work that is going to
> create where the register is not maintained digitally? And anyway, if somone
> is fraudulent enough to give short figures, then all they do is have a short
> register.
The logical conclusion of that, though, is that a parent might be able
to find out if their YP was a member of the Scout Association. An
example might be a membership card as was mooted, another might be
access to the website. They would then ask the Group why not. Self-
managing avoidance of the fraud, if you like.
> Oh, and by the way, for the past 15 years I have always paid more capitation
> than we needed to as we have always had losses in February for some reasons.
> I have always included my Exec and my Skills helpers on the census. Anyone
> doing a head count at Group would find it hard to find as many heads as we
> have on the census. Yet not a million miles from me I know of two Groups who
> openly admit to short numbers (but not this year I suspect), and I had one
> DC tell me that I must be the only GSL who declared everyone I was supposed
> to declare. That is a dire indictment of fellow Leaders, and I have no time
> for frauds and cheats. But making work for Groups is not the way to deal
> with them.
I always thought the other logical conclusion of the MMS would be that
YP and adults would join the Association directly, then a Group as
well. No membership, no insurance cover, no activities. It would
make things completely clear cut to HQ. I think Wayne said on Escouts
that that wasn't planned for now, but it seems to me a logical
conclusion.
Neil
Neil Williams
> Found out by entering Network members who were subsequently flagged up as
> duplicates, having had CRBs sent in by their district when they turned 18 as
> Explorers.
Correct. If a CRB is sent for a Network member that has no membership
number, a record is created.
Neil
GAGS
> snip
> The argument about the Data Protection Act has no standing, as the movement
> of information within the same Organisation is perfectly fine and does not
> contravene the Data Protection Act. In addition to this, the information
> request is not classed as sensitive data and if someone was that keen to
> find the information, they would be able to, as much of the information is
> already in the public domain. If a District or County were to pass the
> information to someone outside of The Scout Association, then this would be
> breaking the Data Protection Act.
>
Sorry, just re-read this bit.
I'm sure some rebel fifth-columnist scouter - not me! - out there will
also read this and say (addressing the person who made the original
statement not you Ewan!) something in reply such as:
Listen ******** if much of the information is already in the public
domain WTF are you asking me for it? Why not go to your 'public
domain' and get it yourself and stop bothering me?
You know when someone says something like this it's nonsense.
Sorry, but I have no problem with collecting the census (or at least I
didn't have a problem). First week back in the new year I used to send
out a note with a pro forma explaining the census and process and
asking for details to be sent back on the pro forma. It was made clear
to members and associate members that I was acting on behalf of the
SA, district and county and what the purpose I was collecting the data
- membership purposes (being roughly a count and id of those in
scouting in the group who were due to pay the AMS).
Was this info from the IC questioned?
GAGS
rocoho
wrote:
Yes anyone recently having a crb is on the database and when
entering a role they will be flagged up , I very much doubt in our
situation if those long standing group exec people will have had a
crb if thats the only role
rocoho
>
> Oh, and by the way, for the past 15 years I have always paid more capitation
> than we needed to as we have always had losses in February for some reasons.
> I have always included my Exec
no requirement to pay membership for group exec members inc chair
treas , sec , unless they are also members or ass members - doing do
uses group funds unecessarily
Ewan Scott
"Al" <al@[nospam]byteitservices.co.uk> wrote in message
news:hik8d2$lnk$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
world wide family of Scouting. They don't.
I used to. I don't any more. The indifference that I have seen from fellow
Scouters (not here mind you) has cooled my belief in Scouting. Moreover the
repeated failure of foreign Scouters to respond to enquiries about exchanges
of information, local knowledge, visits etc has stunned me.
I had believed that any foreign Scout Group approached would welcome the
chance to make contact with fellow Scouts. It has not been the case. I
contacted seven Groups in Alsace, and got no response. I even enquired about
booking a campsite at Hiessenstien (sic) and was ignored.
On our trip to Dusseldorf I emailed the Pfadi HQ in Dusseldorf and was
ignored.
The only response I got was from a group in the Ardennes, who offered us the
use of their hall. However, we would have had to sleep in one room, and
share one shower between us all for a week, so I had to decline, but asked
that we could meet with them and their Scouts whilst we were in the
Ardennes. I even made the point of visiting the town on a recce but they
simply ignored any requests for contact after we couldn't pay for the week's
use of their hall.
The idea is fantastic, I'm not so sure about the reality.
The reality is that when kids join a Group they join a Group, actually, most
join a section not a Group, and disabusing them and their parents of that
idea is very difficult, if not impossible. So we work with what we've got.
Actually, the more I think about this the less impressed I am. The one thing
that I would like to see in Scouting is cohesion, sections working with
sections, groups with groups, Districts with Districts, but after 15 years
we can't even get our Groups to talk to each other, and now that I have
access to more information I now know that in some Groups sections don't
talk to each other.
So the high ideal of a World movement seems a long way off from where I
stand.
I don't think that a central membership database is required, I don't think
it is helpful, I don't think that it will be used to benefit Groups, rather
I suspect it will create problems and difficulties.
Our members have a Group badge - the Group is their home it is where they do
their Scouting it is the group which supports them. The District, has done
sweet **** all for 15 years, and when any effort has been made it has been
eschewed by the District and run by individuals. The hassle involved in
running the District camp, and the petty squabbles that arose by people who
never lifted a finger has killed any chance of another for the foreseeable
future. So District offers little to us ( and my District role has been
painful, disappointing and demotivating for me). County, well frankly, I
can't really think of too much that County has done, save inspect our
accounts for two years at my request. County support seems to have
diminished by the year. And Gilwell.... It does a job, I'll agree, but the
support is generally intangible. The ONLY people who make Scouting happen
are the kids and the leaders at sections, and sometimes at Groups, rarely at
District or County.
Your ideal is fine, it has no bearing on the reality though.
Ewan Scott
Ewan Scott
"Neil Williams" <pace...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0894e025-8596-4173...@z41g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
may well be a drive towards a top down management approach, reversing the
current structure. That is something that we should resist.
But I guess that softee softee catchee monkee will prevail.
Ewan Scott
Ewan Scott
>A good reason to have it up date continually on the database then its
>already available , with no additional work .
But it is additional work, someone has to maintain the database every
section night. I KNOW that my leaders can't do it. So who?
Ewan Scott
Ewan Scott
> I always thought the other logical conclusion of the MMS would be that
> YP and adults would join the Association directly, then a Group as
> well. No membership, no insurance cover, no activities. It would
> make things completely clear cut to HQ. I think Wayne said on Escouts
> that that wasn't planned for now, but it seems to me a logical
> conclusion.
Okay. Let's get right down to the nitty gritty.
In my District I am 70 adults short.
In my Group I have sufficient adult support, but we still have weak spots.
Personally I am GSL, I am the one who generates the projects, finds the
funding, leads the team to maintain the building and grounds.
I help at Scouts every week.
I am also an ESL
I am an archery instructor and we run regular archery sessions throughout
the summer.
I am a shooting tutor, ditto
I am a L3 kayak coach and we run kayaking courses and sessions throughout
the summer
I am a TA - because our District apparently needs more, even though we have
very few leader applications...
I am also a Joint DC and I'm not even going to start on how time consuming
that can become, or indeed how risky a role it is.
I am also, after four previous people have failed to manage Gift Aid, in the
process of sorting out our Gift Aid.
I am fortunate/ unfortunate that my work allows me to commit a ridiculous
amount of time to Scouting. That may change.
Am I to now add to my list of must dos, regularly updating sectional
records?
Am I also to insist on checking the currency of membership details of each
and every member to ensure that each term they have paid their dues to
Gilwell?
I have kept my promise over the years to the best of my ability. I have
certainly kept the personal promise that I made to my Scouts when I started.
I have kept my promise to the Group that I made when I started.
A Scout is Loyal, I put a lot of store in that. I've been loyal to Scouting,
to my Scouts and despite disagreements over the years I've been loyal to the
Scout Association. I find myself asking for the first time, where now is
Scouting's loyalty to the service I have given?
Ewan Scott
Ewan Scott
The Chair, Secretary and Treasurer should have been checked by now. Your
leaders as members are already checked. So it would make sense that any
other members should also be checked. I've never had an Exec member who
didn't end up being involved with the youth members at some point.
Ewan Scott
Ewan Scott
>
should that be lower?).
Ewan Scott
rocoho
As usual down to personal contact
Try groups through your twin towns maybe more sucessfull.
We have loose links with two grops from the twin town area , and
have done for over 20years, they vist every four years, tied up with a
jamboree, provide gifts from the Mayor for the district in the form
of bavarian beverage in aluminium kegs + food for BBQ, they try to
tie up with local groups but there is little interest this end in
the middle of the holidays or in our going out there , although
having been out as ian individual , a gret welcome, but we also havea
open house for them to stay ( in limited numbers)
Members of these german groups even wear our district badge on
uniform , and are considered hon members . it could work much
better , but then its the brits that cannot be bothered here ,
>
rocoho
Really! do you have people leave or join or change their details
every section night , Anyone willing could take on the role
Ewan Scott
>
>>
>> Oh, and by the way, for the past 15 years I have always paid more
>> capitation
>> than we needed to as we have always had losses in February for some
>> reasons.
>> I have always included my Exec
>
> no requirement to pay membership for group exec members inc chair
> treas , sec , unless they are also members or ass members - doing do
> uses group funds unecessarily
r.
The following are required to be Associate Members and pay the Headquarters
Membership Subscription annually:
?
Members of the Scout Fellowship;
?
Section Assistants;
?
Group Skills Instructors holding Certificates of Appointment;
?
Group Advisers;
?
Other adults who opt to be Associate Members.
There was a directive a few years back saying that the Chair, Secretary and
Treausrer should be Members or Associate Members of the Scout Association.
I complied with that directive.
Ewan Scott
rocoho
> "rocoho" <rr198...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
completly agree , but if they don't do it and DC doesnot make an
issue then it doesnt happen .
No doubt there could be leaders whose crb is in excess of 5 years old
so should have been renewed or even a few that are pre crb
appointments
rocoho
> "rocoho" <rr198...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
But was not and still is not a POR requirment for those appointments
at group level , to be members or Ass mem or pay membership fees.
Membership fees are payable in respect of dist chair Sec and treas.
rocoho
> > I always thought the other logical conclusion of the MMS would be that
> > YP and adults would join the Association directly, then a Group as
> > well. No membership, no insurance cover, no activities. It would
> > make things completely clear cut to HQ. I think Wayne said on Escouts
> > that that wasn't planned for now, but it seems to me a logical
> > conclusion.
>
> Okay. Let's get right down to the nitty gritty.
>
> In my District I am 70 adults short.
>
> In my Group I have sufficient adult support, but we still have weak spots.
With respect , you do too much and you have insufficient group support
if your doing all those things . All groups vary considerably , if
something were to happen to you that you could not continue , there
would be a massive hole left which is not a good position . Clearly
there are difficulties in recuiting adult support, perhaps moreso in
your area for some reason than here.
With a good sized group , premises etc there needs a large support
base ,a GSL is a manager only, regretably as long as you do it ,
people will stand back and let you .
>
> Personally I am GSL, I am the one who generates the projects, finds the
> funding, leads the team to maintain the building and grounds.
not your role
> I help at Scouts every week.
not gsl role
> I am also an ESL
optional district role
> I am an archery instructor and we run regular archery sessions throughout
> the summer.
optional
> I am a shooting tutor, ditto
optional
> I am a L3 kayak coach and we run kayaking courses and sessions throughout
> the summer
optional
> I am a TA - because our District apparently needs more, even though we have
> very few leader applications...
soulds pointless
> I am also a Joint DC and I'm not even going to start on how time consuming
> that can become, or indeed how risky a role it is.
madness
> I am also, after four previous people have failed to manage Gift Aid, in the
> process of sorting out our Gift Aid.
not gsl role
>
> I am fortunate/ unfortunate that my work allows me to commit a ridiculous
> amount of time to Scouting. That may change.
think it may good for you personally if it did
>
> Am I to now add to my list of must dos, regularly updating sectional
> records?
not your role you don't probably do it.
>
> Am I also to insist on checking the currency of membership details of each
> and every member to ensure that each term they have paid their dues to
> Gilwell?
if it came to pass it would be annual membership .
Seriously though thanks for the vast amount you do , but you do risk
compete burn out !
>
Dave
>
>>>
>>> So if a County has not asked the question, they might not have the
>>> response.
>>>
>>> Ewan Scott
>>>
>>
>> That is true.
>>
>> I don't know who it went to . I got a copy, but whether it was sent wider
>> than West Yorks I do not know.
>>
>> And don't blame Mark - I did ask the question based on the fact of not
>> finalising figures until they are reconciled against a register.
>
> For God's sake. Have you any idea how much extra work that is going to
> create where the register is not maintained digitally? And anyway, if
> somone is fraudulent enough to give short figures, then all they do is
> have a short register.
>
I agree that they will. Some of course don't they will put names that don't
tie up with the figures.
Personally I am not bothered.
But I am not prepared to say that I have checked the figures against a
register if I have not and by finalising the figures that is what I would be
doing.
>
>> What the line to take on those failing/refusing. So blame me if you wish,
>> although I'm sure there are others who may have asked too.
>
> What line to take. Well first of all some honesty would be good.
That is why I was honest. I wasn't going to let Mark take it for something I
may have done.
This is a
> bit like buying a new bit of technology, just because it is new. Most of
> us have a computer in our home that has gretaer capability than NASA had
> when they put a man on the moon. Yet I'd warrant that none of us use it to
> its capacity. Every day people buy pnones with gizmos that do this and
> that, that they will never use, we have bcome used to redundant facilities
> being built in to everything.
>
Nobodys says it has to be done online or electronically by every Group.
The numbers do need doing online and that can be done by anyone with a PC.
The register can be on paper and posted to the District then onto County. I
personally think it is better electronically but I appreciate that it is
beyond some.
By the way, I am in cloud cuckoo land I know when I suggest that the info
should be already in the Group and that technically it should be the Group
Secretary who deals with it in discussion with GSL.
I do agree though that it should not be done to sit in a box or on a pc and
not looked at, and I personally will not be processing it in anyway -
although if the DC or someone else wants to that is their choice.
SNIP
DaveB
HQSpy
> "HQSpy" <scoutwatc...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:f0af4a15-371a-4e60...@p8g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Someone tell me what the problem is here? When I joined he local
> > branch of the Tufty club as a nipper, my details were sent to HQ.
>
> > Kids are joining the local branch of a national organisation and as
> > such, the national HQ is perfectly entitled to know the names and
> > addressses of all its members.
>
> > Who at HQ is threatening to sack leaders who (wrongly) fail to provide
> > them with information they are justly entitled to? Where can we find
> > this threat published?
>
> letter.
>
I will, but in the meantime, has ANYONE actually SEEN this letter, and
if so, why can't you just publish the contents of it on here?
Ewan Scott
>As usual down to personal contact
>Try groups through your twin towns maybe more sucessfull.
> We have loose links with two grops from the twin town area , and
>have done for over 20years, they vist every four years, tied up with a
>jamboree, provide gifts from the Mayor for the district in the form
>of bavarian beverage in aluminium kegs + food for BBQ, they try to
>tie up with local groups but there is little interest this end in
>the middle of the holidays or in our going out there , although
>having been out as ian individual , a gret welcome, but we also havea
>open house for them to stay ( in limited numbers)
>Members of these german groups even wear our district badge on
>uniform , and are considered hon members . it could work much
>better , but then its the brits that cannot be bothered here ,
That's a thought.
If I were contacted I would respond, regardless of the language I would find
a way of making contact. If the ideal of Scouting being international were
alive then any leader contacted would respond with at least an
acknowledgement.
Ewan Scott
Ewan Scott
> leaders as members are already checked. So it would make sense that any
> other members should also be checked. I've never had an Exec member who
> didn't end up being involved with the youth members at some point.
>completly agree , but if they don't do it and DC doesnot make an
>issue then it doesnt happen .
>No doubt there could be leaders whose crb is in excess of 5 years old
>so should have been renewed or even a few that are pre crb
>appointments
There should now be no Leaders without CRB or with a CRB over five years
old. I'd say that was a more serious offence than objecting to provide
needless data to sit in someone's inbox for a year.
Ewan Scott
Ewan Scott
every section night , Anyone willing could take on the role.
In all honesty there are changes on a monthly basis. We take in when someone
knocks on the door, plus at the start of term, and we do have departures -
esp in Beavers and Cubs, less so in Scouts. Any task not kept up to date
becomes a struggle, so either we have someone willing to struggle once a
year, or we have to find someone willing to keep it up to date on a monthly
basis.
But who is willing? Seriously, we started with a volunteer doing Gift Aid
10 years ago. We have had four volunteers since. It is only because I'm
doing it that it will get done. So, find me someone willing because I can't
find anyone willing to come in and collect subs, or to take a register, or
to sort out gift aid forms. What chance do I have of finding someone to sort
out the database? Did I mention that I've set up three websites in the hope
that once they were established someone else would take them on - nope, no
volunteers.
Oh, and I've just had a call from someone who decided it would be a good
idea to put youth members on the youth database. He was disabused of the
idea after it took 20 minutes to make one complete entry. His experience was
repeated by someone who thought they could do better. It follows my own
experience of trying to maintain a proper database, which looked fantastic
on paper but in reality became a nightmare in time consumption.
Ewan Scott
rocoho
I agree, but mine went over 5 years and nobody told me or said
anything , I realized and did a new one. almost certainy there are
others in the district, without a database its a devil to keep check
that everyone is valid .
Ewan Scott
On Jan 13, 12:10 pm, "Ewan Scott" <ewansc...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> > I always thought the other logical conclusion of the MMS would be that
> > YP and adults would join the Association directly, then a Group as
> > well. No membership, no insurance cover, no activities. It would
> > make things completely clear cut to HQ. I think Wayne said on Escouts
> > that that wasn't planned for now, but it seems to me a logical
> > conclusion.
>
> Okay. Let's get right down to the nitty gritty.
>
> In my District I am 70 adults short.
>
> In my Group I have sufficient adult support, but we still have weak spots.
>With respect , you do too much and you have insufficient group support
>if your doing all those things . All groups vary considerably , if
>something were to happen to you that you could not continue , there
>would be a massive hole left which is not a good position . Clearly
>there are difficulties in recuiting adult support, perhaps moreso in
>your area for some reason than here.
>With a good sized group , premises etc there needs a large support
>base ,a GSL is a manager only, regretably as long as you do it ,
>people will stand back and let you .
I have plenty of support at the Group - that I do the activities is my
choice - these are largely what Scouting is about.
What people are reluctant to do is unwarranted pen pushing. Strip the
cladding off the building and put in new windows - no problem. repaint the
interior - no problem. Build an extension - no problem. Man a camp - no
problem. Fill out unrequired forms - no way.
The greatest stress has come about from the DC role. We had hoped to get
people Scouting but have spent the best part of a year sorting out Trustee
issues and dealing with a campsite which has become a nightmare and quite
frankly we have become so sickened by the place that we could very easily be
persuaded to dispose of it rather than take the risk of it going wrong on
us.
The first role that I'd drop would be the DC role, but I'll not go into the
reasons here why we can't let it go yet.
I was warned about burn out about ten years ago, still going strong, just a
lot more cynical than I was.
Ewan Scott
Dave
"HQSpy" <scoutw...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:c79933f7-7167-4fb8...@h9g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
Yes I have seen it.
I will not publish it as it was sent to certain people with the comment that
it should be used as necessary using appropriate communication. That to me
means via the District or County and not here.
That said Ewan has published most if not all of it in one of his posts.
Dave
rocoho
>
> Oh, and I've just had a call from someone who decided it would be a good
> idea to put youth members on the youth database. He was disabused of the
> idea after it took 20 minutes to make one complete entry. His experience was
> repeated by someone who thought they could do better.
really not at all sure why it should take 20mins to put on a youth
member . not that I do it, we can put on an adult , give them a
role etc in a few minures , a modification / update /cancellation
takes maybe 30 secs after getting to the right page and being a c...
typist .
Ewan Scott
>
>
> This is a
>> bit like buying a new bit of technology, just because it is new. Most of
>> us have a computer in our home that has gretaer capability than NASA had
>> when they put a man on the moon. Yet I'd warrant that none of us use it
>> to its capacity. Every day people buy pnones with gizmos that do this and
>> that, that they will never use, we have bcome used to redundant
>> facilities being built in to everything.
>>
>
> Nobodys says it has to be done online or electronically by every Group.
Not my point. My point is that we have become so used to having redundant
facilities built in to everything that some people see no issue with making
work for others just because it seems like a good idea. I hate it at work. I
hate it in my private life and I hate it in my Scouting. We all complain
about councils wasting money. if we were paying for this data collection,
would we still be happy to have it sit redundant because we don't have a use
for it or any real outcome for it?
> By the way, I am in cloud cuckoo land I know when I suggest that the info
> should be already in the Group and that technically it should be the Group
> Secretary who deals with it in discussion with GSL.
Here's how I do the census..
I walk in to a section. I ask all those of each age range to stand up. I
count the boys, I count the girls, I pencil in the data. I check with the
leader on those missing but on the register. I correct the data, I fill in
the numbers. Job done.
Now, thanks to some people with grandiose ideas they won't divulge, I'm
expected to spend hours on collating the data.
Ewan Scott
Ewan Scott
"HQSpy" <scoutw...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:c79933f7-7167-4fb8...@h9g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
The content is available on Escouts in a question to Wayne Bullpit.
Ewan Scott
Ewan Scott
I'm sure our District sec gets a reminder.
Ewan Scott
Ewan Scott
There is a stack of data required for youth members to make proper use of
the facility. That's why. It isn't just the basics.
Ewan Scott
>
> I will not publish it as it was sent to certain people with the comment
> that it should be used as necessary using appropriate communication. That
> to me means via the District or County and not here.
>
> That said Ewan has published most if not all of it in one of his posts.
I don't hold with secret information. If something is required it is
required. If something is so unpopular that it requires to be done in
secrecy then perhaps it shouldn't be being done at all.
It was patently obvious that opposition was expected, so why the
surreptitious approach?
Ewan Scott
Neil Williams
<ewan...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>It might be but then it wouldn't be Scouting. However, I suspect that there
>may well be a drive towards a top down management approach, reversing the
>current structure. That is something that we should resist.
Though it wouldn't surprise me if parents *thought* we were like other
organisations. Thus I'd be surprised about the idea of parents
objecting to data going to the SA.
Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.
Neil Williams
<ewan...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>I walk in to a section. I ask all those of each age range to stand up. I
>count the boys, I count the girls, I pencil in the data. I check with the
>leader on those missing but on the register. I correct the data, I fill in
>the numbers. Job done.
An unusual approach. Most Groups, I'd think, do it from the data they
already hold, e.g. the register and record cards.
Neil Williams
<ewan...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>I was warned about burn out about ten years ago, still going strong, just a
>lot more cynical than I was.
Do you enjoy it, though? If so, there isn't so much of a problem.
MatSav
> ...
> There was a directive a few years back saying that the Chair,
> Secretary and Treausrer should be Members or Associate Members
> of the Scout Association.
>
> I complied with that directive.
"Should", not "must" - see other threads, passim.
--
MatSav
Stephen Rainsbury
> It is/ will be impossible to mainatin a complete membership database
> without imposing additional tasks on sectional or Group Leaders - that is
> not supporting us, that is hindering us.
Totally agree.
Gilweel seem to be so keen to run us like a business. Its very easy for
somebody to say "I think it will be a good idea to collect all the data so
we can analyse it" but have the really thought about the implications of the
work they are giving us to do?
I don't get enough time to spend on scouting as I would like as it is, what
possible use is it going to be for me to collect this data in their format?
I bet they wouldn't ask if we were getting paid to do it!
--
Stephen Rainsbury
DESC Gillingham, Kent
www.gillinghamscouts.org.uk
Stephen Rainsbury
> Someone tell me what the problem is here? When I joined he local
> branch of the Tufty club as a nipper, my details were sent to HQ.
Yes as you joined. Did yo tell them that you had left? Did a voulanteer
adult have to collect tyour data every year? Its a different story all
together.
> Kids are joining the local branch of a national organisation and as
> such, the national HQ is perfectly entitled to know the names and
> addressses of all its members.
Why? What for? I used to work for an IT comapny, and spent more hours that I
can bear to think about trying to explain to people that unless you have a
reason for the data it is a costly pointless exercise to collect it.
By the time you have dreamt up a use it will be out of date.
Ewan Scott
"Neil Williams" <wensl...@pacersplace.org.uk> wrote in message
news:4b4e082...@news.individual.net...
> On Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:59:55 -0000, "Ewan Scott"
> <ewan...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>>I was warned about burn out about ten years ago, still going strong, just
>>a
>>lot more cynical than I was.
>
> Do you enjoy it, though? If so, there isn't so much of a problem.
>
on why my thoughts on the DC role have changed my view.
I have a few things to finish and then we shall see.
Ewan Scott
Ewan Scott
> On Wed, 13 Jan 2010 15:10:24 -0000, "Ewan Scott"
> <ewan...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>>I walk in to a section. I ask all those of each age range to stand up. I
>>count the boys, I count the girls, I pencil in the data. I check with the
>>leader on those missing but on the register. I correct the data, I fill in
>>the numbers. Job done.
>
> An unusual approach. Most Groups, I'd think, do it from the data they
> already hold, e.g. the register and record cards.
>
you are aged 6., etc..
Ewan Scott
Paul Harris
<a2e8b59c-3904-4516...@m25g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
rocoho <rr19...@hotmail.com> writes
>There is alreadty a central national membership database! - it has
>adults on it and the ability to put youth members , its acessable by
>hq , county , districts , groups and individuals depending on the
>authorised authority.
>it can be updated at anytime , sure with volenteers , lots of entries
>will be totally in accurate .
We used to have SID, that was an opt in database that contained name,
Group, Appointment, email address. People did sometimes remember to
update it but many didn't. We had administrators in each County but
they found it difficult to keep it up to date, I know that I put in many
hours updating it for people who either couldn't do it themselves and
found it easier to ask us to do it for them. A compulsory database
would require an immense effort if it was to be maintained and kept
current.
--
Paul Harris
Paul Harris
<8717b728-a4d1-424d...@d20g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
rocoho <rr19...@hotmail.com> writes
>different tasks not additional , eg an app sec can make a change in
>minutes rather than updating local rcord , posting info to hq etc .
Yes, but whilst the Appointment Sec. should know about Leaders they are
unlikely to be aware of changes amongst youth members unless someone
remembers to tell them.
>It would not surprise me if it does fail by the wayside if there is a
>lot of negative response form gropus and DC do not support it
Having been the SID Global Admin. I know the time and effort required
would be considerable but that it is possible, the question is what is
the benefit to those who would be expected to do it and I doubt we will
see much benefit at Group or District level. If the benefit can be
demonstrated then it is possible that people will buy in but remember
not all Groups have spare bodies who can do this even if it is only
another few mins a week.
--
Paul Harris
Mark P
> "Dave" <dave.barwic...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:g8qdnY_wLO6IHtDW...@eclipse.net.uk...
>
>
>
> > "HQSpy" <scoutwatc...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
> >news:f0af4a15-371a-4e60...@p8g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
> >> Someone tell me what the problem is here? When I joined he local
> >> branch of the Tufty club as a nipper, my details were sent to HQ.
>
> >> such, the national HQ is perfectly entitled to know the names and
> >> addressses of all its members.
>
> >> them with information they are justly entitled to? Where can we find
> >> this threat published?
>
> > Ask your DC or District Sec or CC or County Sec. They will probably have a
> > letter.
>
>
> This was in a response to a mail from, I guess, our new County Secretary
> trying to do his job, and who may not have that Nelson touch - no offense
> intended Mark.
>
> So if a County has not asked the question, they might not have the response.
>
> Ewan Scott
None taken
GAGS
> Someone tell me what the problem is here? When I joined he local
> branch of the Tufty club as a nipper, my details were sent to HQ.
So the TC was one organisation with many branches in one of which you
were a member. I take it you've resigned now? :-)
>
> Kids are joining the local branch of a national organisation and as
> such, the national HQ is perfectly entitled to know the names and
> addressses of all its members.
In the TC yes! Is TC HQ entitled to know members' info? Quite likely
yes as it was likely to have been a condition of joining, but you're
only joining one TC organisation, one entity, not an association of
entities.
A Scout Group is NOT a local branch of a national organisation.
It is a separate legal entity but in association with others.
Here are a few things for you to try.
1. Ring up the SIC and ask them for the SA's registered charity number
because you want to put it on some fundraising literature for your
Group, say. (Surely the SA would like to assist you to raise much
needed funds!?) Tell us what they say.
2. As a branch of an organisation there should be a process for you to
be directly elected/appointed to the national executive. Ask the SIC
when you're on the line to them to add your name to the next national
executive elections. Tell us what they say.
3. Look up your Group's constitution and see where it says there is a
representative from the national or regional or district (or an sub-
branch) on your group executive. Just how many people from outside of
your group have a position on your executive? Surely if you're a
branch then they have a say on your executive? Tell us what it says.
Etc.
>
> Who at HQ is threatening to sack leaders who (wrongly) fail to provide
> them with information they are justly entitled to? Where can we find
> this threat published?
Dunno.
HQ, County and district are entitled to require you (a group) to
collect census info for them acting as their agent.
The DPA requires you (the group) - under the registration exemption -
not to data process/transfer info you have received from data subjects
for purposes of the group.
You can't look at your group records when collecting data for the
Census. You have to go out and collect it again but this time as an
agent of HQ, County, district. (As MatSav and others do.)
GAGS
Paul Harris
<40f2c214-8202-44be...@m16g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
Neil Williams <pace...@gmail.com> writes
>
>I always thought the other logical conclusion of the MMS would be that
>YP and adults would join the Association directly, then a Group as
>well. No membership, no insurance cover, no activities. It would
>make things completely clear cut to HQ. I think Wayne said on Escouts
>that that wasn't planned for now, but it seems to me a logical
>conclusion.
>
Parents paying direct but of course they don't all have access to the
Internet and they don't all have Credit Cards. Just as an example there
are issues with direct payment where some Groups currently subsidise
some members.
--
Paul Harris
Paul Harris
<ewan...@btinternet.com> writes
>Really! do you have people leave or join or change their details
>every section night , Anyone willing could take on the role.
>
>In all honesty there are changes on a monthly basis. We take in when
>someone knocks on the door, plus at the start of term, and we do have
>departures - esp in Beavers and Cubs, less so in Scouts. Any task not
>kept up to date becomes a struggle, so either we have someone willing
>to struggle once a year, or we have to find someone willing to keep it
>up to date on a monthly basis.
>
Keeping this updated isn't just about those who join or leave. I
depends on what data is recorded, if we include not just names but
Sections then we need to record when they move between Sections. If we
record addresses, phone numbers, email addresses etc. then every change
needs to be recorded and a system needs to be in place to check that
they remember to tell us about the change. Many YP change mobiles,
email addresses etc. annually so someone has to be prepared to find out
and update the records and in my experience not all Groups have someone
willing or able to do that.
--
Paul Harris
Paul Harris
Rainsbury <nos...@rainsbury.net.text> writes
>"HQSpy" <scoutw...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
>news:f0af4a15-371a-4e60...@p8g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
>
>> such, the national HQ is perfectly entitled to know the names and
>> addressses of all its members.
>
>Why? What for? I used to work for an IT comapny, and spent more hours that I
>can bear to think about trying to explain to people that unless you have a
>reason for the data it is a costly pointless exercise to collect it.
>
>By the time you have dreamt up a use it will be out of date.
>
a box in the corner until a year later the next lot arrived and replaced
it. If someone needs the data then possibly there is some justification
for all the effort involved in collecting it, if not then we are all
just wasting time, effort and money. If it is wanted and will be used
then a simple statement of what is going to be done with it would seem
sensible.
--
Paul Harris
Graham Drabble
news:-OqdnXFUCK_SKdDW...@bt.com:
>
> "Neil Williams" <pace...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:0894e025-8596-4173...@z41g2000yqz.googlegroups.
> com...
>> On 13 Jan, 09:17, "Ewan Scott" <ewansc...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> First of all 99.9% of people join their Scout GROUP, they have
>>> no objection
>>> to data being held by the Scout Group.
>>
>> Is that really how they see it? Or do they, having little
>> understanding of our structure (which is as it is largely for
>> historic reasons - I expect if we founded it now on a top-down
>> basis it wouldn't be like that at all), join "the Scouts", which
>> might be a local branch just like a local branch of Tesco, say?
>>
> It might be but then it wouldn't be Scouting. However, I suspect
> that there may well be a drive towards a top down management
> approach, reversing the current structure. That is something that
> we should resist.
Indeed, it's been creeping in for a while now [0], one size fits all
Scouting with more and more control and management.
Honestly speaking I don't know why HQ feel that we need this kind of
support, if they've got people to spare to do paperwork / data then get
them out in the groups, most are crying out for people to do admin. Let
District and Counties (if we really must have both layers still) give
support that section leaders ask for, for everything else leave well
alone.
[0] I think PRG/URG were the start but others may have longer memories.
--
Graham Drabble
1st Uxbridge
http://www.drabble.me.uk/
MatSav
news:4b4e07e...@news.individual.net...
> <ewan...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>>I walk in to a section. I ask all those of each age range to
>>stand up. I
>>count the boys, I count the girls, I pencil in the data. I
>>check with the
>>leader on those missing but on the register. I correct the
>>data, I fill in
>>the numbers. Job done.
>
> An unusual approach. Most Groups, I'd think, do it from the
> data they
> already hold, e.g. the register and record cards.
>
Then my Group, like Ewan's, is an exception to what you think
(but in a different way). The register and record cards can hold
incorrect data, and as some have claimed here, it *may* be a
breach of the Data Protection Act to simply transfer data in that
manner. That's one reason why we do a separate data collection
exercise, on behalf of the District.
--
MatSav
Gooders
>> When kids join a Scout Group they join a local Group.They don't see
>> themselves joining the Scout Association and frankly from the
>> behaviour of most adults, neither do they. To my mind the young
>> people are members of the Group and the Group is the member of the
>> Association.
>>
>
>
> And isn't that the route of so many problems?
>
> I really could not disagree more.
>
> They join the Scout movement, they belong to a group which provides
> delivery amongst other things.
>
> What remains common is that they have joined a movement, the SA are the
> governing body of.
>
> It has become my preference now to emphasize the worldwide movement they
> are joining when I hand over the Scout membership award. To me its the
> most important badge they will ever wear, and I make sure they know
> that. The 4th Law says "A Scout belongs to the world-wide family of
> Scouts". It does not say they belong to a group and there is nothing
> else out there.
>
> Al
Ewan's right. Our kids join Beavers or Cubs for one of two reasons.
Either, their mates do it and say it's fun OR their parents want them to
go to Beavers or Cubs. They don't for one moment think that they are
joining a worldwide brotherhood of Scouting or even the UK SA, they are
joining Oswestry Scout Group full stop. That (for me) is why the concept
of District Explorer Units is so laughable.
We induct them into our 'tribe', we compete against other 'tribes' at
District or County events. We ARE Oswestry Scout Group!
I think this harks back to BPs background. When I was in the Army, yes I
was in the British Army, but first and foremeost I was a soldier in that
Unit in that Regiment. And my regiment (REME) was so much better than
any other Regiment. Swap Unit for Section and Regiment for Group and you
have Scouting.
Perhaps we, as leaders, are failing in a duty to help them make that
connection but I don't think so.
I've had similar experiences to Ewan in trying to contact overseas
Groups, (although a Group local to where I live has successfully done
so) and even had similar experiences within the UK at various events and
camps.
Stephen
Gooders
whether the same system applies for Appointments. Hey-ho, mine should be
due this year - I'm sure soneone will remind me.
Neil Williams
| pipex | dot | com> wrote:
> Then my Group, like Ewan's, is an exception to what you think
> (but in a different way). The register and record cards can hold
> incorrect data, and as some have claimed here, it *may* be a
> breach of the Data Protection Act to simply transfer data in that
> manner.
I wouldn't have thought it was purely for the figures - it isn't
personal data as it can't be used to identify anyone in any way.
May be true of the addresses, of course. But you can't get those just
by having people stand up :)
Neil
Dave
"Gooders" <goo...@anti.spam> wrote in message
news:v9adnXFeKrDF09PW...@pipex.net...
On the other hand when a kid moves house the parent expects a place in your
Group as they are members of the Scout Association.
All is forgotten about them just been a member of xxx Group.
Dave
Dave
"Paul Harris" <nos...@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
news:8dlbsuJD...@zen50073.zen.co.uk...
> In message
> <8717b728-a4d1-424d...@d20g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
> rocoho <rr19...@hotmail.com> writes
>
>>different tasks not additional , eg an app sec can make a change in
>>minutes rather than updating local rcord , posting info to hq etc .
>
> Yes, but whilst the Appointment Sec. should know about Leaders they are
> unlikely to be aware of changes amongst youth members unless someone
> remembers to tell them.
>
You are of course having a laugh .....
I am not appointments sec but I do eventually find out about adults who have
resigned or changed roles without the GSL telling anyone or even realising
that for a good while to change role they needed to complete a form and have
the possibility of interview and training.
(possibly the reason they don't tell you).
I am aware here of people working with Beavers as Cubs section Leaders etc
(not doing both), but don't want to change appointment as it means filling
in a new form more training etc.
I refuse to change the address list for their appointment uuntil it is
official.
Youth members of course are a different animal.
I need them for the reasons I have previously given - but don't see the real
point.
On the other hand I find it difficult to understand how a Group can run a
section without knowing the name, addreess, dob, phone no of their members
(we have a few where some of this info is unknown by the leaders). How can
they plan for their Group, claim gift aid etc. What must their section
records be like, subs, camps etc.
I realise that the info for HQ needs to be collected for that purpose but
some appear not to know it. I also realise that some of this info will be on
paper rather than PC.
SNIP
Dave
Dave
"Ewan Scott" <ewan...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:udSdncTjR-LJn9PW...@bt.com...
I don't think they do.
You can request a printout and are soon to produce an online report for it -
but it only shows those with an appointment. So if you have submitted an AA
or OH form and previously HQ got it and now your Appt Sec then there will be
a record to tie up to a CRB.
If like our District you have loads where Groups sent them in as "helpers"
and no record was set up at HQ they will not be on the report so if you have
not kept the reply forms or register then you will not have a clue on those.
Dave
Ewan Scott
> your Group as they are members of the Scout Association.
>
they do many tend not to stay because it isn't the same as it was at their
old Group.
We have this even within the District.
Ewan Scott
Dave
I personally saw it as guidance and what the bottom line was for those who
needed it rather that send it to everyone - some of them see it as a
challenge or threat that they are prepared to test out.
It was a little like when compulsory admission of girls was announced - when
the bottom line was published in Scouting it was seen by some a something to
be challenged. Some of those challengers now having been ousted. (On that
note we have half the District who are refusing quietly to taking girls - if
pushed in time could be interesting). But that is going off thread.
Dave
Ewan Scott
"Dave" <dave.ba...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:6_OdnQ-drIf4fNPW...@eclipse.net.uk...
>
> "Paul Harris" <nos...@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
> news:8dlbsuJD...@zen50073.zen.co.uk...
>> In message
>> <8717b728-a4d1-424d...@d20g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
>> rocoho <rr19...@hotmail.com> writes
>>
>>>different tasks not additional , eg an app sec can make a change in
>>>minutes rather than updating local rcord , posting info to hq etc .
>>
>> Yes, but whilst the Appointment Sec. should know about Leaders they are
>> unlikely to be aware of changes amongst youth members unless someone
>> remembers to tell them.
>>
>
> You are of course having a laugh .....
Why on earth would the appointments secretary have any knowledge of the
movement of youth members?
> I am not appointments sec but I do eventually find out about adults who
> have resigned or changed roles without the GSL telling anyone or even
> realising that for a good while to change role they needed to complete a
> form and have the possibility of interview and training.
>
> (possibly the reason they don't tell you).
That's just sheer bad management. No-one moves without us knowing.
> I am aware here of people working with Beavers as Cubs section Leaders etc
> (not doing both), but don't want to change appointment as it means filling
> in a new form more training etc.
Not up to them, it is up to the GSL/ DC to sort that out, or perhaps even
the LTM.
> I refuse to change the address list for their appointment uuntil it is
> official.
>
> Youth members of course are a different animal.
>
> I need them for the reasons I have previously given - but don't see the
> real point.
So you want to have data for no reason?
> On the other hand I find it difficult to understand how a Group can run a
> section without knowing the name, addreess, dob, phone no of their members
> (we have a few where some of this info is unknown by the leaders). How can
> they plan for their Group, claim gift aid etc. What must their section
> records be like, subs, camps etc.
No-one has said that Groups don't have that data. It is not always in a
format that can be readily passed to someone else - even if we felt it
correct to so do.
> I realise that the info for HQ needs to be collected for that purpose but
> some appear not to know it. I also realise that some of this info will be
> on paper rather than PC.
>
And in any number of formats. never having checked sectional records until
now - I've never had a need. I find that we have three different sets of
records, some better maintained than others. That I need to address.
Nonetheless, just because I have that data does not mean that I can pass it
on, or indeed that I will pass it on if it is for no good purpose.
Ewan Scott
Ewan Scott
>>
>
> I don't think they do.
>
> You can request a printout and are soon to produce an online report for
> it - but it only shows those with an appointment. So if you have submitted
> an AA or OH form and previously HQ got it and now your Appt Sec then there
> will be a record to tie up to a CRB.
>
> If like our District you have loads where Groups sent them in as "helpers"
> and no record was set up at HQ they will not be on the report so if you
> have not kept the reply forms or register then you will not have a clue on
> those.
>
But I am sure that she gets reminders. If she doesn't then she's ruddy well
organised!
Ewan Scott
rocoho
Not aware of my appoint sec getting any reminders, certainly the
previous helpers are not showing on the database as they were local
appointments also not sure if they put 5 year old crbs on the
database like they do now, maybe its she is ruddy well organised .
I hear there a technical issue at present with putting on crbs the ,
I have had a new one for some time but its not registered against the
new appointment yet .