Question for Tony Maris....
Dave B
I had a tow bar fitted to my 2000 3.2V6 Frontera. The company that fitted
it didn't use the provided socket in the nearside rear light cluster for
the electrics, instead they used the old tried and tested scotchlocks.
I'm concerned about this for a couple of reasons and would appreciate
answers to the following:
1. They scotchlocked the cable to the unit that supplies the caravan
power to a cable at the rear of the car. They said this was more than
sufficient for the power requirements but it doesn't look like it is to
me. Do you know if such a suitable cable is available in the nearside
rear light cluster or have I been fobbed off?
2. They also assured me that the built in tow bar indicator repeater on
the dash board would work. It doesn't! Instead they have given me the
reversing alarm from the QE2 and the dog really doesn't like me turning
when she's in the back of the car. Do I need something from Vauxhall to
make this work properly?
If Tony, or someone in the know could answers these questions I'd be much
obliged.
Thanks,
Dave.
david
Dave,
Just to give you some info. this post as also come up on
uk.satellite.tv.europe.
--
Regards,
David
"Dave B" <dbr...@no.spam.appsmall.com> wrote in message
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Ken.Jones
"Dave B" <dbr...@no.spam.appsmall.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.15af0d75d...@news.btclick.com...
There is such a socket in the Frontera bit it is for Vauxhall's own
electrics. If you haven't had them fitted then that is why they have
scotchlocked to the harness. Personally I never use them I always make a
good soldered joint. I ran a Frontera for 3 3yrs with standard electrics
fitted no problems apart from the fact I'd paid for Vauxhall twin electrics.
I got the supplier to refund £100 off the fitment but that is another long
story. The thing you should be aware of is the rear fogs must be switched
out when the caravan is in tow as the extra fog on the van ( if used ) burns
out the Vauxhall fog light switch. I think if I were you I'd be asking your
supplier some very searching questions. Hopefully Tony can provide you with
more details than I can as he is the expert, I am merely an experienced
DIY'er.
--
Regards....Ken G0HMU
ICQ #: 119557773
Due to Spammers I will only supply my email if needed.
But I decide the need factor.
Dave B
da...@npark.takeout.freeserve.co.uk wrote...
> Hi,
> Dave,
> Just to give you some info. this post as also come up on
> uk.satellite.tv.europe.
Thanks, I know - how embarrassing! I waited for hours to see if the post
arrived here and after a couple I decided I must have done something
wrong - sure enough I'd posted it to the wrong group! Still, on the funny
side there's probably a lot of people confused on alt.satellite.tv.europe
now :-) As soon as I spotted the mistake I posted it here and also a
cancellation notice for that one, but unfortunately not all news servers
it seems act on cancellations.
Thanks anyway - I'll live with any flack I get.
Dave.
Dave B
> There is such a socket in the Frontera bit it is for Vauxhall's own
> electrics. If you haven't had them fitted then that is why they have
> scotchlocked to the harness. Personally I never use them I always make a
> good soldered joint. I ran a Frontera for 3 3yrs with standard electrics
> fitted no problems apart from the fact I'd paid for Vauxhall twin electrics.
> I got the supplier to refund £100 off the fitment but that is another long
> story. The thing you should be aware of is the rear fogs must be switched
> out when the caravan is in tow as the extra fog on the van ( if used ) burns
> out the Vauxhall fog light switch. I think if I were you I'd be asking your
> supplier some very searching questions. Hopefully Tony can provide you with
> more details than I can as he is the expert, I am merely an experienced
> DIY'er.
Thanks. I guess the question is would fitting the Vauxhall electrics make
the dash board repeater work? In which case I could ditch the abandon
ship fire alarm they've installed. I'd also still like to know the
capability of the cable they've scotchlocked to for the caravan power.
The Frontera was once again modified in 1999, do you know if your
comments regarding the rear fog switch still apply therefore on a 2000
model?
Thanks,
Dave.
Ken.Jones
> comments regarding the rear fog switch still apply therefore on a 2000
> model?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dave.
No I can't be sure but they've been aware of the problem for at least 4 yrs
as I know to. My guess is that they won't change the switch for a minority.
I also guess that the same switch will be used across the Vauxhall range. I
now have a Vectra and have not bipassed the fog switch because I never tow
in fog. I think the problem arises when used continuously for a couple of
hours or more, it overheats. A simple fog off socket for the electrics or a
bipass relay is all that's needed. Again not sure about the capacity of the
Vauxhall harness but I assume it should be OK for the trailer lights at
least. This is what I thought all the socket was wired for. You may still
need to wire heavy duty for the 12S even when using Vauxhalls own trailer
socket on the harness.
When I got my Frontera in 1997 I had the dealer fit the tow-bar and paid for
Vauxhall electrics. I took it off when I returned the car last year and
discovered they had removed the trailer socket and fitted towsure electrics
and sounder. I threatened them with legal action and got £100 refund. ( they
charged £350 ) for the Witter bar and electrics back in 1997 ) Even today I
could get it fitted by Tony for around £250. I fitted my own to the Vectra,
I wanted to fit my own on the Frontera but the dealer insisted it would void
the warranty. I've since found that to be a load of rubbish.
If you want to buy Vauxhall's pre-wired sockets I think they are around
£45 - £50 just for the electrics. My advice would be to remove the
scotch-locks and make soldered joints, fit a fog-off or bipass relay for the
fog light. This switches the car's rear fog light out of circuit when you
connect the caravan up. HTH.
Tim Arnold
may not be on the original unit. I have two Land Rovers one is wired with
genuine parts the other the plug has been cut off and connections made with
crimps ( I hate scotchlocs) both work fine even after being submerged. even
if you don't use the manufactures kit it is still better to use their
connection point on the loom as all the connections are in one place. Even
if there is no other reason it is good to turn the car fogs off when towing
as the red glow on the front of the van can be off-putting.
--
Regards
Tim Arnold
Reality is world where boring people live, insanity is a world where happy
people live.
t...@sunstarlane.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.zyworld.com/Timothy_Arnold/index.htm
(still under construction)
Discovery 200Tdi "Hector"
Freelander 1.8 Xei "Angel"
"Ken.Jones" <up.y...@xxx.com> wrote in message
news:8vh17.820$B56.1...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
Tony Maris
You don't say whether the fitter was a Vauxhall Dealer or not. From what I
saw last week however, it probably wouldn't make any difference! The wiring
kits they were fitting still needed to be 'scotchlocked' into the loom.
With regard to the dedicated socket near the nearside rear cluster lamp,
it's fine for picking up the feeds for the lighting circuits. It includes a
feed to run the 12S system on the caravan and it's fused at 20 amps in the
fusebox BUT, if your 'van is 1998 onwards, the power consumption you require
will cause _significant_ voltage drop due to the size of cable used. It is
quite understandable why a fitter would choose to use it (it was put there
by Vauxhall to do that particular job) but I would not recommend it. I have
already heard of instances where the voltage drop is sufficient to cause the
self-switching relays to constantly cycle in and out. We would run a
separate 44 strand cable direct to the vehicle battery.
To get the towbar indicator warning light to work, you may just need to
exchange the standard 3 pin flasher unit for a 4 pin. Vauxhall have been
very remiss in the past though with certain models by having the towbar
indicator light on the dashboard and then either leaving out the bulb and
bulb holder at the back of it or, leaving out the complete wiring link to
the flasher receptacle.
The audible monitor to which you refer is pretty much accepted practice in
the industry these days, however, it is still possible to have a separate
warning light fitted if the noise upsets your dogs. The old fashioned
'universal' relay which we fitted to everything 20 or so years ago, is still
available. There are, also, other methods available now which do not
require the fitting of a permanently live relay. I don't yet have these on
my website but can e-mail details if you require.
Hope this helps
Regards
Tony
--
Tony M <anthon...@which.net> http://www.towitall.co.uk
Towbars & Trailers QSA accredited for Towbars and Trailers.
Chesterfield Accreditation no. 001.
Specialists in Towing Equipment
NTTA Council Member
Dave B <dbr...@no.spam.appsmall.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.15af0d75d...@news.btclick.com...
Dave B
wrote...
Thanks Tony. You've confirmed my fears about the power cable but given me
something to look for on the dash board indicator.
It wasn't a Vauxhall dealer it was a tow bar specialist company called
The Towbar Man down here in the South East. I did ask them about maybe
fitting the kit from Vauxhall but they told me it cost £40 and they would
want another £100 to fit it. There are many times I read your postings on
this group and wish we were nearer.
Do you know what this £40 Vauxhall kit consists of? Is it new 12N and S
sockets with their plug on the end for the wiring loom, or is there more
to it?
And now the really dumb question... they have wired the power to the
caravan with one of these solid state gizmos. If I were to run my own
cable more suitable for the job, is it just a direct connection to the
battery? I'm assuming that these gizmos detect the increase in voltage
when the engine is running but I would appreciate confirmation.
Thanks again,
Dave.
Stuart
relay and run a cable of sufficient capacity thro the vehicle from the
battery. (Easy to do)
Don't forget to fit a fuse as near to the supply point as possible.
It sounds from your description that you may have a "Smartcom" type of relay
fitted, a small oblong box with 5 wires coming from it, an earth, feed, and
3 for the caravans supplies, perm live, fridge and battery feeds.
--
Stuart
sa...@autowbars.co.uk
www.autowbars.co.uk
Tel 01274 390796
Fax 01274 407936
"Dave B" <dbr...@no.spam.appsmall.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.15b047a38...@news.btclick.com...
Tony Maris
For forty pounds, I think it unlikely you would be getting a complete, plug
in, 12N and 12S kit with split relay system. I would have thought it would
be at least double that amount.
The wiring kits I saw at the Vauxhall dealer I visited were not plug in kits
but, in fairness, they weren't for Frontera's either! (Mainly Astra's and
Vectra's). The 12S kits they had were _only_ suitable for new spec wiring.
They contained only four wires namely, no 3 pin, no 4 pin, no 6 pin and no 7
pin. The 12S loom contained a live red to no 4 (should be green), a
switched blue to no 6 (should be red) and two black earths. (one should be
white). There was no facility for reversing lights or battery charging with
pre 98 caravans.
The last time I spoke to him, 'The Towbar Man' was using the same self
switching, voltage sensing relay that I use. It simply needs a heavy duty
feed to the battery (I use 44 strand 27 amp) fused as close to the battery
as possible with a good quality fuse holder and terminals (I use 20 amp
blade fuse and holder with fully insulated terminals, crimped with ratchet
crimpers). The relay switches in at around 13.7 volts and out again at
around 12.8 volts. The only way this can happen is for the alternator to be
putting out a charge, therefore, there will be a delay of several seconds
after starting the engine before the relay kicks in. On our test board,
which draws a full 20 amps, occasionally we notice the relay cycling in and
out initially. This almost invariably happens when running at idle with a
less than fully charged battery and normally settles down after a few
minutes.
Hope this helps
Regards
Tony
--
Tony M <anthon...@which.net> http://www.towitall.co.uk
Towbars & Trailers QSA accredited for Towbars and Trailers.
Chesterfield Accreditation no. 001.
Specialists in Towing Equipment
NTTA Council Member
Dave B <dbr...@no.spam.appsmall.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.15b047a38...@news.btclick.com...
Dave B
wrote...
> Hope this helps
Thanks Tony, and the other people that contributed, it helps a great
deal. I found the flasher relay today (can you believe it isn't mentioned
once in the owners manual) and although I can see there are four wires
going to the socket, the relay only has 3 pins. So, hopefully swapping
this for a 4 pin relay will make the dashboard repeater work.
Thanks again,
Dave.
Darren Jarvis
> deal. I found the flasher relay today (can you believe it isn't mentioned
> once in the owners manual) and although I can see there are four wires
> going to the socket, the relay only has 3 pins. So, hopefully swapping
> this for a 4 pin relay will make the dashboard repeater work.
For those that are interested, you can make your own "warning lamp relay"
which should work on practically any car - I fitted one to my Rover 414 and
it works a treat (already had the dash warning light, but it wasn't
connected to anything!).
Basically, it consists of a reed-switch and a coil of varnished copper wire.
The principle is that the coil is positioned so that the magnetic field it
generates (when the indicators are on) isn't enough to activate the reed
switch, but when the extra load of the caravan indicators are present, the
magnetic field *is* strong enough to activate the reed switch. Of course,
the reed-switch is what controls the dash warning lamp.
So, take one reed-switch and connect it to one terminal of the warning lamp
(the other terminal of the lamp should go to chasiss or negative). There
should be three wires to the indicator switch - one input, and two outputs.
Cut the input wire and insert a short length of enammelled (I know it's not
spelt right!) copper wire which must not be thinner than the core of the
original wire. Wind the copper wire loosely around the reed-switch about
five or six times and then join the free end of the reed-switch to one side
of the coil.
Switch on the ignition and indicate left or right - the dash warning lamp
should flash once and then stay off (unless a caravan or trailer is plugged
in) - slide the coil along the reed-switch if neccessary to adjust, and fix
in place with glue. Insulate the entire assembly and secure behind the
dash.
Darren
P.S.
The "roadrunner" (i.e. meep-meep-meep) type warning device is fitted by most
towbar fitters because it is cheap and quick - there is no complicated
wiring behind the dash...
Tony Maris
It's common practice for Rover Group to install the dashboard warning light
AND the wiring. What is missing is the 4 pin flasher unit, same as David's
Frontera. The Rover requires a unit with a small footprint which usually
means buying OE. However, I do a conversion which fits between the existing
3 pin flasher unit and the flasher unit mounting. It effectively converts
the three pin to a 4 pin and, whilst it does involve a little wiring in the
fusebox, it is considerably cheaper than a 4 pin flasher unit.
I have used reed relays in the past and had too many problems with them to
make them cost effective. Whilst they are a simple device, and will work as
you say, the difficulty is getting them set up correctly. They are affected
by anything magnetic (i.e. radio speakers) and are very sensitive to changes
in voltage. It was common for them to work okay with engine running but not
with just ignition on (or vice versa). We had too many people coming back a
few days later saying the extra indicator light had started flashing all the
time, even when not towing. Also, it may work okay for one indicator but
not the other. I stopped using them over 10 years ago, they were just too
much hassle (but they were cheap).
I still have a box full somewhere so if any one wants one.........
Regards
Tony
--
Tony M <anthon...@which.net> http://www.towitall.co.uk
Towbars & Trailers QSA accredited for Towbars and Trailers.
Chesterfield Accreditation no. 001.
Specialists in Towing Equipment
NTTA Council Member
Darren Jarvis <sec...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:ey527.15914$9a6.1...@news11-gui.server.ntli.net...
> For those that are interested, you can make your own "warning lamp relay"
> which should work on practically any car - I fitted one to my Rover 414
and
> it works a treat (already had the dash warning light, but it wasn't
> connected to anything!).
>
/snip
Darren Jarvis
> make them cost effective. Whilst they are a simple device, and will work
as
> you say, the difficulty is getting them set up correctly. They are
affected
> by anything magnetic (i.e. radio speakers) and are very sensitive to
changes
> in voltage. It was common for them to work okay with engine running but
not
> with just ignition on (or vice versa). We had too many people coming back
a
> few days later saying the extra indicator light had started flashing all
the
> time, even when not towing. Also, it may work okay for one indicator but
> not the other. I stopped using them over 10 years ago, they were just too
> much hassle (but they were cheap).
Yes, they certainly can be tempermental (I had to drive up to Sheffield with
the steering column surround off so I could adjust the coil for normal
driving!), but - fingers crossed - it's working properley at the moment.
My Rover does have a 4-pin relay socket, but unfortunately not the wiring.
I know this because it didn't even have the trailer indicator until I
retro-fitted an older instrument panel; from there I had to make my own
wiring (and I thought it'd be a good excuse to use the reed-relay that was
bundled in an ancient kit).
If anyone on the group fancies making one on the cheap (bear in mind I'm
probably as tight as they come), then the reed-relay is an alternative to
the annoying "roadrunner" type warning device - otherwise it's probably had
it's day...
Darren