Disabled less worthy members of society - Tory MP
Jethro
MP says minimum wage a hindrance to disabled jobseekers
A Conservative MP has suggested "vulnerable" jobseekers - including
disabled people - should be allowed to work for less than the minimum
wage.
Backbencher Philip Davies said the £5.93-an-hour legal minimum may be
a "hindrance" to some jobseekers.
Firms were likely to favour other candidates and MPs should not "stand
in the way" of those who wanted to work for less to get on the "jobs
ladder".
But mental health charity Mind said it was a "preposterous
suggestion".
Mr Davies, the MP for Shipley, made the comments during a debate in
the Commons over the minimum wage and employment opportunities.
The minimum wage is currently £5.93 an hour for those over 21, £4.92
for those aged between 18 and 20 and £3.64 for 16 and 17 year olds.
'Less of a risk'
The MP claimed the most vulnerable, including those with learning
disabilities and mental health problems, were disadvantaged in their
search for work because they had to compete with candidates without
disabilities and could not offer to accept lower pay.
Continue reading the main story “Start QuoteMy view is that for some
people, the national minimum wage may be more of a hindrance than a
help”
End Quote Philip Davies Tory MP for Shipley
They were desperate to work but continually found the "door was being
closed in their face", he argued.
He said he had talked to people with mental health problems during a
visit to a surgery run by the charity Mind, and they had "accepted"
that they would be passed over in favour of jobseekers without
disabilities.
"Given that some of those people with a learning disability clearly,
by definition, cannot be as productive in their work as somebody who
has not got a disability of that nature, then it was inevitable that
given the employer was going to have to pay them both the same they
were going to take on the person who was going to be more productive,
less of a risk," he said.
He continued: "My view is that for some people, the national minimum
wage may be more of a hindrance than a help.
"If those people who consider it is being a hindrance to them, and in
my view that's some of the most vulnerable people in society, if they
feel that for a short period of time, taking a lower rate of pay to
help them get on their first rung of the jobs ladder, if they judge
that that is a good thing, I don't see why we should be standing in
their way."
Challenged
Mr Davies was challenged over his remarks by fellow Tory MP Edward
Leigh who told him: "Forget the fact there is a minimum wage for a
moment. Why actually should a disabled person work for less than £5.93
an hour. It is not a lot of money, is it?"
Mr Davies replied that, irrespective of whether it was "right or
wrong", that was "just the real world that we operate in".
"If an employer is looking at two candidates, one who has got
disabilities and one who hasn't, and they have got to pay them both
the same rate, I invite you to guess which one the employer is more
likely to take on," he added.
Continue reading the main story “Start QuoteThese comments are utterly
outrageous and unacceptable”
End Quote Dame Anne Begg Labour MP
He suggested the minimum wage obligations was preventing people from
"being given the opportunity to get the first rung on the employment
ladder".
But Mind spokesman Sophie Corlett said: "It is a preposterous
suggestion that someone who has a mental health problem should be
prepared to accept less than minimum wage to get their foot in the
door with an employer.
"People with mental health problems should not be considered a source
of cheap labour and should be paid appropriately for the jobs they
do."
She said employers should be educated about mental health problems,
adding that more than 50% of people with mental health problems lived
on weekly household income of less than £200.
And a spokesman for the Conservative Party told the BBC: "These
comments do not reflect the views of the Conservative Party and do not
reflect government policy".
Labour MP Dame Anne Begg, chairman of the work and pensions committee,
said: "These comments are utterly outrageous and unacceptable.
"To suggest disabled people should be treated as second-class citizens
is shocking and shows just what a warped world some Tories demonstrate
they inhabit."
The minimum wage will increase to £6.08 for workers aged 21 and over
from October and to £4.98 and £3.68 respectively for younger workers.
Mr Davies, who is on the right of the Conservative Party, has a
history of defying his party leadership on a range of issues issues
including Europe, foreign aid and sentencing.
*******
Interesting perspective, I'd be curious to see what other posters here
think. I can only just type this, as containing my feelings is causing
apoplexy ....
Stephen Wolstenholme
<krazy...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>MP says minimum wage a hindrance to disabled jobseekers
>
>A Conservative MP has suggested "vulnerable" jobseekers - including
>disabled people - should be allowed to work for less than the minimum
>wage.
He is talking rubbish. The minimum wage must apply to everyone. I'm
disabled but when I retired my wage was about ten times minimum.
Disabilities should not be part of wage setting. If a disabled person
can do the job then their disability is irrelevant.
Steve
--
Neural network software applications, help and support.
Neural Planner Software www.NPSL1.com
Jethro
wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 08:12:13 -0700 (PDT), Jethro
>
> >MP says minimum wage a hindrance to disabled jobseekers
>
> >A Conservative MP has suggested "vulnerable" jobseekers - including
> >disabled people - should be allowed to work for less than the minimum
> >wage.
>
> He is talking rubbish. The minimum wage must apply to everyone. I'm
> disabled but when I retired my wage was about ten times minimum.
> Disabilities should not be part of wage setting. If a disabled person
> can do the job then their disability is irrelevant.
I have no problem with politicians talking rubbish. It's their job,
after all. But I found this unbelievably offensive in it's
implication. I wonder if it'll cause the shitstorm I think it
deserves ?
gaz
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13809620
>
> *******
>
> Interesting perspective, I'd be curious to see what other posters here
> think. I can only just type this, as containing my feelings is causing
> apoplexy ....
While he was maybe daft for saying it, as advocates will use it against him.
People with profound learning disabilities can often do very unskilled low
value repetitive work.
Examples, a series of small make work projects. Much quasi charitable, the
individuals get quite a strong sense of well being and independence. The
reality is though that their earning potential is very low.
Mentalguy2k8
"gaz" <bk...@blugh.com> wrote in message
news:961d15...@mid.individual.net...
It's like the Ken Clarke rape "seriousness" thing.. what he *actually* said
is very true, but to nobody's surprise, the Labour Party and the BBC twisted
it.
He's saying that the *reality* of the situation is that people who aren't
very productive are likely to be overlooked for employment in favour of
those who *are* acceptably productive. And that nobody is going to pay even
mimimum wage to someone who can't perform their duties that other people are
performing in return for minimum wage. It's a shitty situation and clearly
not fair, but that *is* the reality of it.
If I had to choose between two candidates for a job, of course I'd choose
the one who could do the job to an acceptable standard, if the other one
couldn't. It's unfair on the other guy (whatever the reasons for his
unsuitability) but that's the reality of business. If the disabled guy could
do the work expected of him and he had more experience or a better
interview, I'd choose him instead.
sid
I agree it should cause a fuss, but I suspect it will be ignored.
Disabled rights groups seem to get less attention paid to them than
groups based on race or sexuality, if he had said "gays should be able
to work for less" or "chinese should be able to work for below minimum
wage" of course everyone would be going mad.
sid
Isn't there already a way of doing that, since they could do charity
type things on a volunteer or "training" type basis and get a training
allowance rather than changing the existing rules?
Maria
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13809620
>
> MP says minimum wage a hindrance to disabled jobseekers
>
> A Conservative MP has suggested "vulnerable" jobseekers - including
> disabled people - should be allowed to work for less than the minimum
> wage.
>
> a "hindrance" to some jobseekers.
>
> Firms were likely to favour other candidates and MPs should not "stand
> in the way" of those who wanted to work for less to get on the "jobs
> ladder".
>
> But mental health charity Mind said it was a "preposterous
> suggestion".
>
> Mr Davies, the MP for Shipley, made the comments during a debate in
> the Commons over the minimum wage and employment opportunities.
>
> for those aged between 18 and 20 and �3.64 for 16 and 17 year olds.
>
> 'Less of a risk'
>
> The MP claimed the most vulnerable, including those with learning
> disabilities and mental health problems, were disadvantaged in their
> search for work because they had to compete with candidates without
> disabilities and could not offer to accept lower pay.
>
> people, the national minimum wage may be more of a hindrance than a
> End Quote Philip Davies Tory MP for Shipley
> They were desperate to work but continually found the "door was being
> closed in their face", he argued.
>
> He said he had talked to people with mental health problems during a
> visit to a surgery run by the charity Mind, and they had "accepted"
> that they would be passed over in favour of jobseekers without
> disabilities.
>
> "Given that some of those people with a learning disability clearly,
> by definition, cannot be as productive in their work as somebody who
> has not got a disability of that nature, then it was inevitable that
> given the employer was going to have to pay them both the same they
> were going to take on the person who was going to be more productive,
> less of a risk," he said.
>
> He continued: "My view is that for some people, the national minimum
> wage may be more of a hindrance than a help.
>
> "If those people who consider it is being a hindrance to them, and in
> my view that's some of the most vulnerable people in society, if they
> feel that for a short period of time, taking a lower rate of pay to
> help them get on their first rung of the jobs ladder, if they judge
> that that is a good thing, I don't see why we should be standing in
> their way."
>
> Challenged
>
> Mr Davies was challenged over his remarks by fellow Tory MP Edward
> Leigh who told him: "Forget the fact there is a minimum wage for a
> an hour. It is not a lot of money, is it?"
>
> Mr Davies replied that, irrespective of whether it was "right or
> wrong", that was "just the real world that we operate in".
>
> "If an employer is looking at two candidates, one who has got
> disabilities and one who hasn't, and they have got to pay them both
> the same rate, I invite you to guess which one the employer is more
> likely to take on," he added.
>
> outrageous and unacceptable�
> End Quote Dame Anne Begg Labour MP
> He suggested the minimum wage obligations was preventing people from
> "being given the opportunity to get the first rung on the employment
> ladder".
>
> But Mind spokesman Sophie Corlett said: "It is a preposterous
> suggestion that someone who has a mental health problem should be
> prepared to accept less than minimum wage to get their foot in the
> door with an employer.
>
> "People with mental health problems should not be considered a source
> of cheap labour and should be paid appropriately for the jobs they
> do."
>
> She said employers should be educated about mental health problems,
> adding that more than 50% of people with mental health problems lived
>
> And a spokesman for the Conservative Party told the BBC: "These
> comments do not reflect the views of the Conservative Party and do not
> reflect government policy".
>
> Labour MP Dame Anne Begg, chairman of the work and pensions committee,
> said: "These comments are utterly outrageous and unacceptable.
>
> "To suggest disabled people should be treated as second-class citizens
> is shocking and shows just what a warped world some Tories demonstrate
> they inhabit."
>
> from October and to �4.98 and �3.68 respectively for younger workers.
>
> Mr Davies, who is on the right of the Conservative Party, has a
> history of defying his party leadership on a range of issues issues
> including Europe, foreign aid and sentencing.
>
> *******
>
> Interesting perspective, I'd be curious to see what other posters here
> think. I can only just type this, as containing my feelings is causing
> apoplexy ....
I share your annoyance.
It can't be long before they start arguing that British workers should
be prepared to take less than Eastern Europeans on the minimum wage, so
that we can get over the apparent disadvantage of being British and
useless at everything.
What gets me is that the minimum wage is lower for young people, but
they are the ones suffering the worst worklessness. If employers want
dirt cheap workers, why don't they employ more 18 year olds?
gaz
Thats a really fair point and a reasonable rebuttal. Though he would say for
that to work it needs the existance of a third party to authorise it (the
state).
gaz
> I share your annoyance.
> It can't be long before they start arguing that British workers should
> be prepared to take less than Eastern Europeans on the minimum wage,
> so that we can get over the apparent disadvantage of being British and
> useless at everything.
> What gets me is that the minimum wage is lower for young people, but
> they are the ones suffering the worst worklessness. If employers want
> dirt cheap workers, why don't they employ more 18 year olds?
It would be far far worse for the young. They just do not have the earning
potential. Even with the reduced minimum wage eighteen year olds are seen as
too much trouble. That is frightening really.
Tom
> People with profound learning disabilities can often do very unskilled low
> value repetitive work.
>
And why shouldn't they receive �5.93 per hour for doing so?
thedarkman
destroy jobs. Any Libertarian will tell you that. To be meaningful,
the minimum wage has to be above the market rate, and if it is, then
prices must rise or jobs will be destroyed. Check out the relevant
chapter in my book FREEDOM UNDER SOCIALISM?
http://www.infotextmanuscripts.org/book_extracts.html
or this guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMMN3UIQmEk
a black who didn't need affirmative action. Unlike most of the anti-
racist movement.
Cynic
>I agree it should cause a fuss, but I suspect it will be ignored.
>Disabled rights groups seem to get less attention paid to them than
>groups based on race or sexuality, if he had said "gays should be able
>to work for less" or "chinese should be able to work for below minimum
>wage" of course everyone would be going mad.
There is a big difference. Being black or gay does not inherently
affect the amount or quality of your work or involve your employer in
extra expense. Many types of disability do.
While all other groups need only to be treated equally to avoid
discrimination, disabled people *need* to be treated differently by
being provided with facillities and being granted concessions that
able-bodied people neither want nor need.
--
Cynic
Maria
because they are considered energetic and pliable.
I don't know what changed, when you think that only 50 years ago, kids
would leave school at 14 or 16, go straight to the factory and spend
their entire lives there. Dave went straight into a shoe factory at 16
and worked there for 16 years before they decided to outsource
production to the far east in the 1990's, and he was made redundant.
Something between then and now has changed - I just can't think what,
except for considering them as children up to the age of 18 and even
beyond, rather that potentially skilled adult workers.
gaz
Because the value they add to the company is less?
gaz
I think he is referring to people with profound learning disabilities.
sid
I think it already happens with training agencies set up for people with
learning problems, although I'm not sure of their status. I know one
near here but I'm not sure is it a private or state organised thing.
Djornsk
How can a minimum hourly rate be relevent to piecework, and does
piecework circumvent the minimum hourly rate?
j
Maria
> On 17/06/2011 16:12, Jethro wrote:
>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13809620
>>
>> MP says minimum wage a hindrance to disabled jobseekers
>>
>> A Conservative MP has suggested "vulnerable" jobseekers - including
>> disabled people - should be allowed to work for less than the minimum
>> wage.
>>
>> a "hindrance" to some jobseekers.
>>
>> Firms were likely to favour other candidates and MPs should not "stand
>> in the way" of those who wanted to work for less to get on the "jobs
>> ladder".
>>
>> But mental health charity Mind said it was a "preposterous
>> suggestion".
>>
>> Mr Davies, the MP for Shipley, made the comments during a debate in
>> the Commons over the minimum wage and employment opportunities.
>>
>> for those aged between 18 and 20 and �3.64 for 16 and 17 year olds.
>>
>> 'Less of a risk'
>>
>> The MP claimed the most vulnerable, including those with learning
>> disabilities and mental health problems, were disadvantaged in their
>> search for work because they had to compete with candidates without
>> disabilities and could not offer to accept lower pay.
>>
>> people, the national minimum wage may be more of a hindrance than a
>> End Quote Philip Davies Tory MP for Shipley
>> They were desperate to work but continually found the "door was being
>> closed in their face", he argued.
>>
>> He said he had talked to people with mental health problems during a
>> visit to a surgery run by the charity Mind, and they had "accepted"
>> that they would be passed over in favour of jobseekers without
>> disabilities.
>>
>> "Given that some of those people with a learning disability clearly,
>> by definition, cannot be as productive in their work as somebody who
>> has not got a disability of that nature, then it was inevitable that
>> given the employer was going to have to pay them both the same they
>> were going to take on the person who was going to be more productive,
>> less of a risk," he said.
>>
>> He continued: "My view is that for some people, the national minimum
>> wage may be more of a hindrance than a help.
>>
>> "If those people who consider it is being a hindrance to them, and in
>> my view that's some of the most vulnerable people in society, if they
>> feel that for a short period of time, taking a lower rate of pay to
>> help them get on their first rung of the jobs ladder, if they judge
>> that that is a good thing, I don't see why we should be standing in
>> their way."
>>
>> Challenged
>>
>> Mr Davies was challenged over his remarks by fellow Tory MP Edward
>> Leigh who told him: "Forget the fact there is a minimum wage for a
>> an hour. It is not a lot of money, is it?"
>>
>> Mr Davies replied that, irrespective of whether it was "right or
>> wrong", that was "just the real world that we operate in".
>>
>> "If an employer is looking at two candidates, one who has got
>> disabilities and one who hasn't, and they have got to pay them both
>> the same rate, I invite you to guess which one the employer is more
>> likely to take on," he added.
>>
>> outrageous and unacceptable�
>> End Quote Dame Anne Begg Labour MP
>> He suggested the minimum wage obligations was preventing people from
>> "being given the opportunity to get the first rung on the employment
>> ladder".
>>
>> But Mind spokesman Sophie Corlett said: "It is a preposterous
>> suggestion that someone who has a mental health problem should be
>> prepared to accept less than minimum wage to get their foot in the
>> door with an employer.
>>
>> "People with mental health problems should not be considered a source
>> of cheap labour and should be paid appropriately for the jobs they
>> do."
>>
>> She said employers should be educated about mental health problems,
>> adding that more than 50% of people with mental health problems lived
>>
>> And a spokesman for the Conservative Party told the BBC: "These
>> comments do not reflect the views of the Conservative Party and do not
>> reflect government policy".
>>
>> Labour MP Dame Anne Begg, chairman of the work and pensions committee,
>> said: "These comments are utterly outrageous and unacceptable.
>>
>> "To suggest disabled people should be treated as second-class citizens
>> is shocking and shows just what a warped world some Tories demonstrate
>> they inhabit."
>>
>> from October and to �4.98 and �3.68 respectively for younger workers.
>>
>> Mr Davies, who is on the right of the Conservative Party, has a
>> history of defying his party leadership on a range of issues issues
>> including Europe, foreign aid and sentencing.
>>
>> *******
>>
>> Interesting perspective, I'd be curious to see what other posters here
>> think. I can only just type this, as containing my feelings is causing
>> apoplexy ....
>
> How can a minimum hourly rate be relevent to piecework, and does
> piecework circumvent the minimum hourly rate?
>
A lot of the agencies that operate hotel room cleaning work on piecework
these days - yes it circumvents it, because it's impossible to get the
number of rooms required done in the time allocated.
Owain
> How can a minimum hourly rate be relevent to piecework, and does
> piecework circumvent the minimum hourly rate?
"There are special rules for working out a ‘fair’ piece rate. Your
employer must find out how many pieces or tasks an average worker can
complete in an hour. The ‘fair’ piece rate is 1.2 times the rate which
lets a worker of average speed earn the NMW in an hour. This gives
workers whose speed may be a bit below average (eg because they just
started) the chance to earn the NMW anyway."
The employer has to give a written notice of the piece rate and the
mean hourly output rate.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/TheNationalMinimumWage/DG_175097
Owain
Djornsk
> On 17/06/2011 21:43, Djornsk wrote:
>> On 17/06/2011 16:12, Jethro wrote:
>>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13809620
>>>
>>> MP says minimum wage a hindrance to disabled jobseekers
>>>
>>> A Conservative MP has suggested "vulnerable" jobseekers - including
>>> disabled people - should be allowed to work for less than the minimum
>>> wage.
>>>
>>> a "hindrance" to some jobseekers.
>>>
>>> Firms were likely to favour other candidates and MPs should not "stand
>>> in the way" of those who wanted to work for less to get on the "jobs
>>> ladder".
>>>
>>> But mental health charity Mind said it was a "preposterous
>>> suggestion".
>>>
>>> Mr Davies, the MP for Shipley, made the comments during a debate in
>>> the Commons over the minimum wage and employment opportunities.
>>>
>>> for those aged between 18 and 20 and £3.64 for 16 and 17 year olds.
>>>
>>> 'Less of a risk'
>>>
>>> The MP claimed the most vulnerable, including those with learning
>>> disabilities and mental health problems, were disadvantaged in their
>>> search for work because they had to compete with candidates without
>>> disabilities and could not offer to accept lower pay.
>>>
>>> people, the national minimum wage may be more of a hindrance than a
>>> End Quote Philip Davies Tory MP for Shipley
>>> They were desperate to work but continually found the "door was being
>>> closed in their face", he argued.
>>>
>>> He said he had talked to people with mental health problems during a
>>> visit to a surgery run by the charity Mind, and they had "accepted"
>>> that they would be passed over in favour of jobseekers without
>>> disabilities.
>>>
>>> "Given that some of those people with a learning disability clearly,
>>> by definition, cannot be as productive in their work as somebody who
>>> has not got a disability of that nature, then it was inevitable that
>>> given the employer was going to have to pay them both the same they
>>> were going to take on the person who was going to be more productive,
>>> less of a risk," he said.
>>>
>>> He continued: "My view is that for some people, the national minimum
>>> wage may be more of a hindrance than a help.
>>>
>>> "If those people who consider it is being a hindrance to them, and in
>>> my view that's some of the most vulnerable people in society, if they
>>> feel that for a short period of time, taking a lower rate of pay to
>>> help them get on their first rung of the jobs ladder, if they judge
>>> that that is a good thing, I don't see why we should be standing in
>>> their way."
>>>
>>> Challenged
>>>
>>> Mr Davies was challenged over his remarks by fellow Tory MP Edward
>>> Leigh who told him: "Forget the fact there is a minimum wage for a
>>> an hour. It is not a lot of money, is it?"
>>>
>>> Mr Davies replied that, irrespective of whether it was "right or
>>> wrong", that was "just the real world that we operate in".
>>>
>>> "If an employer is looking at two candidates, one who has got
>>> disabilities and one who hasn't, and they have got to pay them both
>>> the same rate, I invite you to guess which one the employer is more
>>> likely to take on," he added.
>>>
>>> outrageous and unacceptable”
>>> End Quote Dame Anne Begg Labour MP
>>> He suggested the minimum wage obligations was preventing people from
>>> "being given the opportunity to get the first rung on the employment
>>> ladder".
>>>
>>> But Mind spokesman Sophie Corlett said: "It is a preposterous
>>> suggestion that someone who has a mental health problem should be
>>> prepared to accept less than minimum wage to get their foot in the
>>> door with an employer.
>>>
>>> "People with mental health problems should not be considered a source
>>> of cheap labour and should be paid appropriately for the jobs they
>>> do."
>>>
>>> She said employers should be educated about mental health problems,
>>> adding that more than 50% of people with mental health problems lived
>>>
>>> And a spokesman for the Conservative Party told the BBC: "These
>>> comments do not reflect the views of the Conservative Party and do not
>>> reflect government policy".
>>>
>>> Labour MP Dame Anne Begg, chairman of the work and pensions committee,
>>> said: "These comments are utterly outrageous and unacceptable.
>>>
>>> "To suggest disabled people should be treated as second-class citizens
>>> is shocking and shows just what a warped world some Tories demonstrate
>>> they inhabit."
>>>
>>> from October and to £4.98 and £3.68 respectively for younger workers.
>>>
>>> Mr Davies, who is on the right of the Conservative Party, has a
>>> history of defying his party leadership on a range of issues issues
>>> including Europe, foreign aid and sentencing.
>>>
>>> *******
>>>
>>> Interesting perspective, I'd be curious to see what other posters here
>>> think. I can only just type this, as containing my feelings is causing
>>> apoplexy ....
>>
>> How can a minimum hourly rate be relevent to piecework, and does
>> piecework circumvent the minimum hourly rate?
>>
>
> A lot of the agencies that operate hotel room cleaning work on piecework
> these days - yes it circumvents it, because it's impossible to get the
> number of rooms required done in the time allocated.
>
Is that because the cleaners ar too thorough? It is possible to do a job
to to a higher standard than is warranted.
j
Djornsk
Interesting. So a gregarious workforce which chooses to have lots of
informal breaks for tea, a smoke, and conversation can in effect be paid
less than the minimum wage equivalent as long as they could earn the MW
if they didn't make that lifestyle choice?
j
Paul Hyett
:
So the company may lose £1/hr in value - big deal. They could save far
more than that through paying their executives less...
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
Nigel Oldfield
> think. I can only just type this, as containing my feelings is causing
> apoplexy ....
Of course, I cannot accept anyone having to work under an agreed MW,
but he was talking about all 'vulnerable' folk, including those who
had been in prison etc. So his premise is correct, his solution is
what is at fault.
WM
tim....
The state already has authorised it.
What is needed is more charities doing it.
Though it should be noted that the one charity which does try to employ the
disabled on a commercial basis struggles to win work
tim
tim....
"Maria" <old...@theshoe.org> wrote in message
news:2vSdnetVFu-jAWbQ...@bt.com...
> On 17/06/2011 18:46, gaz wrote:
>> Maria wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I share your annoyance.
>>> It can't be long before they start arguing that British workers should
>>> be prepared to take less than Eastern Europeans on the minimum wage,
>>> so that we can get over the apparent disadvantage of being British and
>>> useless at everything.
>>> What gets me is that the minimum wage is lower for young people, but
>>> they are the ones suffering the worst worklessness. If employers want
>>> dirt cheap workers, why don't they employ more 18 year olds?
>>
>> It would be far far worse for the young. They just do not have the
>> earning
>> potential. Even with the reduced minimum wage eighteen year olds are seen
>> as
>> too much trouble. That is frightening really.
>>
>>
> This is what I don't get. If it was the military, they would grab them,
> because they are considered energetic and pliable.
> I don't know what changed, when you think that only 50 years ago, kids
> would leave school at 14 or 16, go straight to the factory and spend their
> entire lives there. Dave went straight into a shoe factory at 16 and
> worked there for 16 years before they decided to outsource production to
> the far east in the 1990's, and he was made redundant.
> Something between then and now has changed
The attitude of 16 year olds!
tim
tim....
> On 17/06/2011 21:43, Djornsk wrote:
>> On 17/06/2011 16:12, Jethro wrote:
>>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13809620
>>>
>>
>> piecework circumvent the minimum hourly rate?
>>
>
> A lot of the agencies that operate hotel room cleaning work on piecework
> these days - yes it circumvents it, because it's impossible to get the
> number of rooms required done in the time allocated.
In theory it doesn't.
If a piece rate is set such that a normal person can't achieve minimum wage
for the time involved then the company are paying an illegal wage.
Of course complaining will earn you your P45
tim
tim....
"Djornsk" <djo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:962tka...@mid.individual.net...
As there is no requirement to pay a person for their breaks, only the time
actually working is counted for NMW
tim
Maria
there are rules and regulations to 'protect' them, i.e. prevent them.
tim....
As in not brought up proper do you mean?
Look: 50 years ago (outside of an employment situation) if an adult told a
16 year old that they were doing something wrong the 16 year old would have
said sorry and adapted their behaviour. Now they say "feck off".
I don't have any experience in the employment situation, but it would not
surprise me if many of them took that same attitude change to work.
Jethro
On reflection, I think he has (unwittingly) *reinforced* the argument
for benefits.
gaz
Thats tabloid rubbish. It's below you.
Maria
I mean giving them lots of rights but no responsibility - preventing
them legally from working - even a paper round has become difficult for
some because of the hours involved.
When I was fourteen, I had three paper rounds and working in Dolcis on a
saturday (eight hours). Now, as far as I know, I'm not even allowed to
let my 14 year old child serve a customer or handle money on my market
stall.
>
> Look: 50 years ago (outside of an employment situation) if an adult told a
> 16 year old that they were doing something wrong the 16 year old would have
> said sorry and adapted their behaviour. Now they say "feck off".
>
> I don't have any experience in the employment situation, but it would not
> surprise me if many of them took that same attitude change to work.
I don't know - none of my kids are like that at all, and they can't even
get interviews. Unless employers are tarring all of them with the same
brush.
Paul Hyett
:
>>>>
>>>> And why shouldn't they receive �5.93 per hour for doing so?
>>>
>>> Because the value they add to the company is less?
>>
>> So the company may lose �1/hr in value - big deal. They could save far
>> more than that through paying their executives less...
>
>Thats tabloid rubbish. It's below you.
Nonsense - it's simple mathematics. The more a person is paid, the more
scope there is for savings by cutting their salary.
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
Paul Hyett
wrote in uk.legal :
>
>Look: 50 years ago (outside of an employment situation) if an adult told a
>16 year old that they were doing something wrong the 16 year old would have
>said sorry and adapted their behaviour. Now they say "feck off".
Or something that sounds similar to that, anyway... :p
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
tim....
Yep, I think that's probably it.
Ray Fischer
>The point is that the minimum raise distorts the market and actually
>destroy jobs. Any Libertarian will tell you that. To be meaningful,
>the minimum wage has to be above the market rate, and if it is, then
>prices must rise or jobs will be destroyed. Check out the relevant
>chapter in my book FREEDOM UNDER SOCIALISM?
The wingnut mentality is that the lives of people are of no relevance.
Only money counts. Greed is everything. Happiness, health, security,
liberty - none of that is as important as greed.
--
Ray Fischer | Mendocracy (n.) government by lying
rfis...@sonic.net | The new GOP ideal