Inkjet liability

[Richard Bingham]

I bought an Inkjet printer in a supermarket in Wales a while back.

I know of the dire warnings from makers about removal of warranty
if the cartridges are refilled. Here's what happened.

First I bout an expensive inkjet printer from a supermarket. The
supermarket sell branded ink refill kits and after the originals on
the new printer ran out (about 20 pages) I used a refill pack from the
same supermarket as I bought the printer from.


The refill was clearly marked as being suitable for brand (XXX)
and both printer and ink were sold on the same isle.

In the event the second time I tried to refill the cartridge the dreaded
error messages started arriving.

Obviously the printers makers have stuck two fingers up at the situation.

Taking the printer and refills back to the supermarket I have met no
opposition even though the printer has been quite obviously damaged by
the non-OEM ink.

What happens about these refill artists who advertise their refills as
being suitable for XXX printer? Are they liable for damage and/or when
their refilled cartridges won't work any more or damage the printer?

[steve robinson]

No, the inks not the problem its how you refil them thats the issue

[Janitor of Lunacy]

"steve robinson" <st...@colevalleyinteriors.co.uk> wrote in message
news:xn0hzqer...@reader80.eternal-september.org...

and you'll probably find that the refill manufacturers have successfully
managed to avoid liability insofar as they are able by printing a warning
notice on their packaging that they do not accept responsibility for user
errors, which you, the user, will have difficulty countering.

[totallyconfused]

On Jun 24, 10:08 pm, Richard Bingham <henrytheei...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

Actually I have the same question: I bought what I believe is the same
inkjet printer:I kept my receipt; sorry call it anal retentive as some
here might claim.

Anyway, my printer has been malfunctioning; It would not by chance be
anHP Deskjet 1050?

I ask because I bought it on 'special offer' inTesco's....the refills
cost more than just buying the same printer with new
cartidriges......I still have the receipt. I want to take it back
toTesco and with my recipt of evidence show that I bought it from
them and I am getting a bit annoyed about the 'intermitant' printing
issue. I know of three people who have had this problem. As I said I
have my receipt; do I take it to Tesco's or HP?

I have not attempted any ink refil- it is the 'rollers' that is the
issue with mine. When I check it says I have plenty of ink.

OK £32 on half price...but lasting less than 12 months? In theory we
all get what we pay for.....
TC

[Graham.]

I always try to refill my cartridges for as many times as possible
rather than buy a new one every time, and I just assume that it's at
my own risk. I imagine there will be some sort of disclaimer with the
refill kit, but I can't say I have ever looked.
Furthermore I am quite happy if that is the case.


Moving away from the strictly legal aspect of your problem, you don't
say what printer or cartridges you use and you don't tell us what the
error message said.
Cartridges can be just tanks of ink that feed a fixed pint head, or
alternatively the print head can be part of the consumable.

Finally the cartridge can have a chip, basically a small amount of NV
RAM, and the printer tells the chip how much ink it thinks is left.
When this reaches zero the printer refuses to print and sends the user
a message.
Perhaps that is what you are seeing? The solution is to learn how to
reset the chip (assuming that is possible)

Or simply buy a new cartridge.

Are you sure you have damaged the printer itself?


--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%

[Nightjar]

On 24/06/2012 22:08, Richard Bingham wrote:
> I bought an Inkjet printer in a supermarket in Wales a while back.
>
> I know of the dire warnings from makers about removal of warranty
> if the cartridges are refilled. Here's what happened.
>
> First I bout an expensive inkjet printer from a supermarket. The
> supermarket sell branded ink refill kits and after the originals on
> the new printer ran out (about 20 pages) I used a refill pack from the
> same supermarket as I bought the printer from.

Don't buy refill kits from supermarkets. They sell universal refill
kits, which claim to be suitable for a very wide range of cartridges.
That means the supermarket does not need to carry many different kits,
which maximises their profit per metre of display. However, universal
refill kits are generally rubbish. If you buy a cartridge specific
refill kit, such as the range made by InkTec, which I use if I have to
refill a cartridge, you will get much better results but, even then, you
might not get more than five refills from one cartridge, although ten or
even more is usually achievable.

> The refill was clearly marked as being suitable for brand (XXX)
> and both printer and ink were sold on the same isle.
>
> In the event the second time I tried to refill the cartridge the dreaded
> error messages started arriving.
>
> Obviously the printers makers have stuck two fingers up at the situation.
>
> Taking the printer and refills back to the supermarket I have met no
> opposition even though the printer has been quite obviously damaged by
> the non-OEM ink.

Has it? Or is it simply upset at the reuse of the cartridges? Many
printers remember the cartridge IDs and you need a set of (usually)
three of each type used in the printer to use in rotation before they
don't recognise the one you put in as having been used before. Using a
different ink is very unlikely to damage the printer, although, as they
can and do wear out with use, individual cartridges may not work after
being refilled.

> What happens about these refill artists who advertise their refills as
> being suitable for XXX printer? Are they liable for damage and/or when
> their refilled cartridges won't work any more or damage the printer?

They will be able to demonstrate that, done properly, the refill works,
therefore, if yours does not, you didn't do it properly.

Colin Bignell

[totallyconfused]

On Jun 25, 1:43 am, Nightjar <c...@insert.my.surname.here.me.uk>
wrote:

Super now can you answer my question/reply?
TY
TC

[djornsk]

On 24/06/2012 22:08, Richard Bingham wrote:

You state that the printer has been damaged but does that mean that you
have tried it with a new set of OEM cartridges and it is still not working?

If you need to keep printing costs down the first step before choosing
the machine is to investigate ink/toner system solutions and then
consider those printers with the best solutions.

Personally I have had the most success with a continuous ink supply
conversion similar to those on http://www.cityinkexpress.co.uk.

I've had one on my Epson px something for 2 years and it just keeps
going on the cheapest Ebay bottled inks and an occasional press of the
reset button.

j

[Nightjar]

As a general rule, if the cartridge is just an ink tank it is simpler to
buy a compatible cartridge. They are generally quite cheap compared to
the originals. It is the ones with an integral print head for which
refilling is the cheaper option. Recycled cartridges for those (often,
confusingly, also sold as a compatible cartridge) tend to be not a lot
cheaper than the originals.

> Finally the cartridge can have a chip, basically a small amount of NV
> RAM, and the printer tells the chip how much ink it thinks is left.
> When this reaches zero the printer refuses to print and sends the user
> a message.
> Perhaps that is what you are seeing? The solution is to learn how to
> reset the chip (assuming that is possible)

As I mentioned elsewhere, you can often fool the printer by using three
different original / refilled cartridges of the same type in rotation.
The ink tank types usually come with a new chip of their own, which
overcomes the problem.

> Or simply buy a new cartridge.
>
> Are you sure you have damaged the printer itself?

Unlikely if all he did was to refill the cartridge.

Colin Bignell

[The Todal]

On 25/6/12 01:02, totallyconfused wrote:
> On Jun 24, 10:08 pm, Richard Bingham <henrytheei...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>> I bought an Inkjet printer in a supermarket in Wales a while back.
>>
>> I know of the dire warnings from makers about removal of warranty
>> if the cartridges are refilled. Here's what happened.
>>
>> First I bout an expensive inkjet printer from a supermarket. The
>> supermarket sell branded ink refill kits and after the originals on
>> the new printer ran out (about 20 pages) I used a refill pack from the
>> same supermarket as I bought the printer from.
>>
>> The refill was clearly marked as being suitable for brand (XXX)
>> and both printer and ink were sold on the same isle.
>>
>> In the event the second time I tried to refill the cartridge the dreaded
>> error messages started arriving.
>>
>> Obviously the printers makers have stuck two fingers up at the situation.
>>
>> Taking the printer and refills back to the supermarket I have met no
>> opposition even though the printer has been quite obviously damaged by
>> the non-OEM ink.
>>
>> What happens about these refill artists who advertise their refills as
>> being suitable for XXX printer? Are they liable for damage and/or when
>> their refilled cartridges won't work any more or damage the printer?
>
> Actually I have the same question

Yours is a very different question. The original question was about
using cut-price ink refills, which the manufacturers generally warn
people never to use because they want to protect their monopoly. Your
question appears to be about some sort of printer malfunction and you
have not suggested that it had anything to do with ink refills.

: I bought what I believe is the same
> inkjet printer:I kept my receipt; sorry call it anal retentive as some
> here might claim.
>
> Anyway, my printer has been malfunctioning; It would not by chance be
> anHP Deskjet 1050?
>
> I ask because I bought it on 'special offer' inTesco's....the refills
> cost more than just buying the same printer with new
> cartidriges......I still have the receipt. I want to take it back
> toTesco and with my recipt of evidence show that I bought it from
> them and I am getting a bit annoyed about the 'intermitant' printing
> issue. I know of three people who have had this problem. As I said I
> have my receipt; do I take it to Tesco's or HP?

You should *always* take it to the retailer, which is Tesco in your
case. If they recommend that you contact the manufacturer you should
tell them that you are not willing to do their job for them. They can
contact the manufacturer if they wish.

But you haven't said how old it is or how frequently you have used it
and you haven't described the nature of the fault.

>
> I have not attempted any ink refil- it is the 'rollers' that is the
> issue with mine. When I check it says I have plenty of ink.
>
> OK £32 on half price...but lasting less than 12 months? In theory we
> all get what we pay for.....
> TC
>

If they refuse to exchange or repair it or give you a refund, maybe they
will say that you damaged it by misuse. That might be difficult to prove
one way or another, and I doubt if you would want to sue them for 32 quid.

[Nightjar]

On 25/06/2012 02:13, totallyconfused wrote:
...

> Super now can you answer my question/reply?

There are other here much better qualified than me to answer a question
that relates to what quality you can expect when buying goods. However,
I would say you have two options: take it back to the retailer under the
Sale of Goods Act and say it was not of merchantable quality or try to
claim under the manufacturer's guarantee. AIUI if you have had the
printer for less than six months, SOGA is probably the way to go as
there is a presumption that it was faulty when bought.

Personally, I buy laser printers for anything except printing
photographs. A simple monochrome laser printer does almost everything I
need and is cheap to run, even with OEM cartridges. It will be even
cheaper when enough of the right type of cartridge get into the
recycling market for people to start selling reliable re-manufactured
cartridges for it.

Colin Bignell

[totallyconfused]

> one way or another, and I doubt if you would want to sue them for 32 quid.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thanks Todal and Nightjar....really my opinion is 'just buy a new one
and get over it.' I am completely 'c'est la vie' about it,..getting
knickers in a twist about a half price printer? Not really worth time
and energy.
TC

[The Todal]

Since the cost of buying a new printer with cartridges is sometimes less
than the cost of buying those cartridges, that makes it even more
sensible to throw the printer away (especially if it has given a few
months of decent service) and buying a new one. There has been a recent
Which report about best buys in colour printers.

[mogga]

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 03:09:10 -0700 (PDT), totallyconfused
<lisab...@hotmail.com> wrote:


>> If they refuse to exchange or repair it or give you a refund, maybe they
>> will say that you damaged it by misuse. That might be difficult to prove
>> one way or another, and I doubt if you would want to sue them for 32 quid.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>Thanks Todal and Nightjar....really my opinion is 'just buy a new one
>and get over it.' I am completely 'c'est la vie' about it,..getting
>knickers in a twist about a half price printer? Not really worth time
>and energy.
>TC

Buy a laser. They're not expensive. Even the toner isn't dear.
--
http://www.voucherfreebies.co.uk

[The Todal]

Presumably you mean a black and white laserjet printer. That's what I
use and in a domestic setting the toner lasts for years.

A colour laserjet printer still (as far as I know) costs far too much to
run if you can't claim it on office expenses. There are 4 different
colour cartridges, each of them very expensive, and the toner doesn't
seem to last as long as you'd expect.

[S.P.]

The Todal wrote:

> Since the cost of buying a new printer with cartridges is sometimes
> less than the cost of buying those cartridges, that makes it even more
> sensible to throw the printer away (especially if it has given a few
> months of decent service) and buying a new one.

Providing one understands that the cartridges supplied with new printers
are, oftentimes, not full and the expected usage is therefore sometimes as
much as half that of a new cartridge. :-(

Additionally, be sure to remove the drivers, TSRs and associated what-not
for the old printer prior to installing the new one. Many manufacturers
have a utility in the download / support section of their site for just this
purpose.

Regards

S.P.

[IanAl]

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 11:41:26 +0100, The Todal <deadm...@beeb.net>
wrote:

>Since the cost of buying a new printer with cartridges is sometimes less
>than the cost of buying those cartridges, that makes it even more
>sensible to throw the printer away (especially if it has given a few
>months of decent service) and buying a new one. There has been a recent
>Which report about best buys in colour printers.

Actually the cartridges supplied with printers are usually only half
full so it's not quite worthwhile buying a new printer every time the
ink runs out. Printer manufacturers aren't entirely stoopid. ;->

[Stephen Wolstenholme]

In my case with a faulty HP Deskjet F2480, Tesco Direct delivered a
new printer and took away the old one. I suggested that it was a
cartridge connection fault but the man said all old printers are
scraped without any further investigation.

Steve

--
Neural Network Software. http://www.npsl1.com
EasyNN-plus. Neural Networks plus. http://www.easynn.com
SwingNN. Forecast with Neural Networks. http://www.swingnn.com
JustNN. Just Neural Networks. http://www.justnn.com

[Nightjar]

They are usually a special starter cartridge that is not only rather
less than half the capacity of the full size cartridge, they also have
small ink reservoirs, so they cannot be refilled to the same level as a
full size cartridge either.

Colin Bignell

[totallyconfused]

> Which report about best buys in colour printers.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Basically, yep which is what my MCPE Father told me as the 'refills'
are £23 quid. (To use his 'French' from Brooklyn: Throw the MF in the
garbage and buy a new one- it's not like you invested in it's
education or life-screw it'.)

My father know how to call a spade a fu888ing shovel.
TC

[Stephen Wolstenholme]

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 12:03:22 +0100, "S.P." <inv...@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

>The Todal wrote:
>
>> Since the cost of buying a new printer with cartridges is sometimes
>> less than the cost of buying those cartridges, that makes it even more
>> sensible to throw the printer away (especially if it has given a few
>> months of decent service) and buying a new one.
>
>Providing one understands that the cartridges supplied with new printers
>are, oftentimes, not full and the expected usage is therefore sometimes as
>much as half that of a new cartridge. :-(
>

It's interesting that most suppliers charge less than the manufacture
of the cartridge. The last time I looked for my printer cartridge, the
XL300 cartridge cost £29.99 direct from HP while other suppliers only
charged £21.78 for day after delivery. In all cases the cartridges
were made by HP and were full up completely (that's what XL300 means).
I must assume HP don't want to sell their own cartridges.

[Cynic]

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 11:41:26 +0100, The Todal <deadm...@beeb.net>
wrote:

>Since the cost of buying a new printer with cartridges is sometimes less
>than the cost of buying those cartridges, that makes it even more
>sensible to throw the printer away

No, it doesn't.

The reason being that the cartridges sold with the printer are usually
only partially filled, so you get *far* fewer pages out of them than
you do from a set of replacement cartridges. The cost *per page* of a
set of new cartridges is thus way below the cost *per page* of a new
printer, despite the printer costing less than the cartridges.

--
Cynic

[Cynic]

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 01:43:38 +0100, Nightjar
<c...@insert.my.surname.here.me.uk> wrote:

>Don't buy refill kits from supermarkets. They sell universal refill
>kits, which claim to be suitable for a very wide range of cartridges.
>That means the supermarket does not need to carry many different kits,
>which maximises their profit per metre of display. However, universal
>refill kits are generally rubbish. If you buy a cartridge specific
>refill kit, such as the range made by InkTec, which I use if I have to
>refill a cartridge, you will get much better results but, even then, you
>might not get more than five refills from one cartridge, although ten or
>even more is usually achievable.

I bought a "continuous ink" system for my Epson printer.

http://www.inkexpress.co.uk/catalogue/Ink-Systems/Epson/Stylus-Photo-RX560/CISS-RX560.html

I originally heard about it on this newsgroup.

In my case it is a 6-colour ink system that has the ink containers
outside the printer with tubes going to dummy cartridges inside the
printer. This makes it easy to (a) see the level of ink in each
container and (b) top-up the containers when they get low. The only
ongoing cost is for the bottles of ink - a set of ink lasts about a 18
months of heavy use and costs under £100 for the set of 6 large
bottles. Probably less than 1/20th the cost of buying cartridges
(cartridges lasted about 4-6 weeks and cost +/-£80 to replace).

I do a great deal of photograph printing that gobbles up the ink, and
I reckon I have got my money's worth over the 5 years the printer has
been in use. It failed once with a "send for servicing" error, which
I managed to deduce was due to a sticking print head, and fixed by
smearing a bit of light grease along the shaft the print head runs
along.

--
Cynic

[harry]

> %Profound_observation%- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Some printers have to be reset if you refill the cartridge. It
"knows" that that cartridge is "empty".

There's a website telling how to do this for various printers.. I am
trying to find it.
The advantage with HP is you get new jets with every cartridge, with
Epson you don't so if they block you might have a problem.

[Nightjar]

On 25/06/2012 18:42, Cynic wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 01:43:38 +0100, Nightjar
> <c...@insert.my.surname.here.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> Don't buy refill kits from supermarkets. They sell universal refill
>> kits, which claim to be suitable for a very wide range of cartridges.
>> That means the supermarket does not need to carry many different kits,
>> which maximises their profit per metre of display. However, universal
>> refill kits are generally rubbish. If you buy a cartridge specific
>> refill kit, such as the range made by InkTec, which I use if I have to
>> refill a cartridge, you will get much better results but, even then, you
>> might not get more than five refills from one cartridge, although ten or
>> even more is usually achievable.
>
> I bought a "continuous ink" system for my Epson printer.
>
> http://www.inkexpress.co.uk/catalogue/Ink-Systems/Epson/Stylus-Photo-RX560/CISS-RX560.html
>
> I originally heard about it on this newsgroup.
>
> In my case it is a 6-colour ink system that has the ink containers
> outside the printer with tubes going to dummy cartridges inside the
> printer. This makes it easy to (a) see the level of ink in each
> container and (b) top-up the containers when they get low. The only
> ongoing cost is for the bottles of ink - a set of ink lasts about a 18
> months of heavy use and costs under £100 for the set of 6 large
> bottles. Probably less than 1/20th the cost of buying cartridges
> (cartridges lasted about 4-6 weeks and cost +/-£80 to replace).

... or about £20 for a set of six good quality compatible cartridges.

> I do a great deal of photograph printing that gobbles up the ink, and
> I reckon I have got my money's worth over the 5 years the printer has
> been in use. It failed once with a "send for servicing" error, which
> I managed to deduce was due to a sticking print head, and fixed by
> smearing a bit of light grease along the shaft the print head runs
> along.
>

Indeed, continuous ink systems are an excellent way for high volume
users to run a printer that has the heads inside the printer, as Epson
do. However, refill kits are usually for those where the head is an
integral part of the cartridge, such as HP. for which continuous ink
systems are generally not available.

Colin Bignell

[mogga]

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 11:47:34 +0100, The Todal <deadm...@beeb.net>
wrote:


>>

>> Buy a laser. They're not expensive. Even the toner isn't dear.
>>
>
>Presumably you mean a black and white laserjet printer. That's what I
>use and in a domestic setting the toner lasts for years.
>
>A colour laserjet printer still (as far as I know) costs far too much to
>run if you can't claim it on office expenses. There are 4 different
>colour cartridges, each of them very expensive, and the toner doesn't
>seem to last as long as you'd expect.

£15 for a full set for a colour laser printer these days.
Not dear.
Certainly not when compared to the hassle of trying to get an inkjet
to work if you've not used it for a few months.
--
http://www.voucherfreebies.co.uk

[Iain]

The Todal wrote:
>
> Presumably you mean a black and white laserjet printer. That's what I
> use and in a domestic setting the toner lasts for years.

That's what I use as well. The price of (mono) laserjet printers has come
right down and the quality is still good. The cost of the toner cartridges
is higher, but they last for very many more copies than inkjet cartridges -
so the cost per copy is very, very low. I do not do much printing, so also
the problem about ink drying on the heads is not relevant. I rarely need to
print pictures, so there is no need for colour.

> A colour laserjet printer still (as far as I know) costs far too much
> to run if you can't claim it on office expenses. There are 4 different
> colour cartridges, each of them very expensive, and the toner doesn't
> seem to last as long as you'd expect.

For anyone who wants colour printing, then the cost will always be
substantially higher. The cost of colour in both photography and printing
has always been high simply because of the very involved process,
particularly with, for instance, accurate colour-separation. We are almost
back in the same position as we were with the awkwardness of showing colour
slides. As hand-viewers came in, so the use of smaller viewer-equivalents
is now available for digital pictures.



The quality of colour-printing can be very good, but it is a process that
you have to pay significantly higher for.


--
Iain

[Alex Heney]

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 11:47:34 +0100, The Todal <deadm...@beeb.net>
wrote:

The best ones nowadays are cheaper to run than inkjets, although they
cost a good deal more to buy than the bottom end inkjets.
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
A pessimist is never disappointed.
To reply by email, my address is alexDOTheneyATgmailDOTcom

[mogga]

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 23:25:05 +0100, Alex Heney <m...@privacy.net>
wrote:

>>>
>>> Buy a laser. They're not expensive. Even the toner isn't dear.
>>>
>>
>>Presumably you mean a black and white laserjet printer. That's what I
>>use and in a domestic setting the toner lasts for years.
>>
>>A colour laserjet printer still (as far as I know) costs far too much to
>>run if you can't claim it on office expenses. There are 4 different
>>colour cartridges, each of them very expensive, and the toner doesn't
>>seem to last as long as you'd expect.
>
>The best ones nowadays are cheaper to run than inkjets, although they
>cost a good deal more to buy than the bottom end inkjets.

About 60 quid for a colour one a couple of years ago.
--
http://www.voucherfreebies.co.uk

[steve robinson]

My hp will do 4000 pages / colour /8000 black which equates to .045
pence per page in colour 0.01 black thats using oem toner units , use
remanufactured and you can approximatly half those costs

that equates with an average of around 300 pages from an inkjet

[Nightjar]

Samsung often do good offers. They are the world's second largest
manufacturer of laser printers, but don't have the penetration into the
domestic market that they would like.

Colin Bignell

[Cynic]

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 21:04:31 +0100, "Iain" <sp...@smaps.net> wrote:

>> Presumably you mean a black and white laserjet printer. That's what I
>> use and in a domestic setting the toner lasts for years.

>That's what I use as well. The price of (mono) laserjet printers has come
>right down and the quality is still good. The cost of the toner cartridges
>is higher, but they last for very many more copies than inkjet cartridges -
>so the cost per copy is very, very low. I do not do much printing, so also
>the problem about ink drying on the heads is not relevant. I rarely need to
>print pictures, so there is no need for colour.

Add to the advatages the fact that laser print is crisp and clear with
no ink "bleed" into the fibres of cheap paper, and that because the
print is formed by melting plastic onto the paper, it will not smudge
even when wet (though it will fairly readily peel off/rub off of
glossy paper - cheap paper works best).

For occasional printing though, some laser printers have an extremely
long warm-up time for the fuser unit to get to temperature, whilst
most ink-jets are ready to print almost as soon as they are switched
on.

--
Cynic

[Richard Bingham]

On 25/06/2012 09:32, The Todal wrote:

>
> You should *always* take it to the retailer, which is Tesco in your
> case. If they recommend that you contact the manufacturer you should
> tell them that you are not willing to do their job for them. They can
> contact the manufacturer if they wish.
>
> But you haven't said how old it is

7 days.

[Richard Bingham]

On 25/06/2012 11:41, The Todal wrote:

>>
>
> Since the cost of buying a new printer with cartridges is sometimes less
> than the cost of buying those cartridges, that makes it even more
> sensible to throw the printer away (especially if it has given a few
> months of decent service) and buying a new one. There has been a recent
> Which report about best buys in colour printers.
>

New printers come with cartridges that only have a small drop of ink.
You might just squeeze 50 pages from them.

[Richard Bingham]

My colour laser printer cartridges (1320C) cost me £22 a set off ebay.
HP want £340