electricity meter replacement

[Ian Smith]

My electricity company wants to replace my meter, with a smart meter.

I know why they want to do this - the government says they have to
replace some proportion of their meters or get penalised. However,
I'm interested in why they say they want to: the letter I have
received states "Your Electric meter is nearing the end of its
lifespan and needs to be replaced. This is a legal obligation set out
to us by Ofgem - the energy regulator". It goes on to say my meter
may be unreliable and may be unsafe, but the good news is that I can
get a spiffy smart meter for free.

Does anyone know what the "legal obligation" referenced is? I know
suppliers used to have an obligation to inspect meters periodically,
but I think that's been withdrawn (there was certainly a consultation
on it, and I'm fairly convinced mine has not been inspected within
the last few years).

While I'm not particularly interested in discussing the pros and cons
of smart meters: I don't want one, primarily because I don't want data
that enables an outside party to determine the occupancy status of my
house leaving the building every 30 minutes.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

[Andy Burns]

Ian Smith wrote:

> My electricity company wants to replace my meter, with a smart

> meter. While I'm not particularly interested in discussing the pros

> and cons of smart meters: I don't want one

Then tell the supplier they're welcome to fit a new "dumb" meter, but
not a smart one which are *not* compulsory ...

<https://www.smartenergygb.org/en/smart-future/about-the-rollout>

[Peter Crosland]

It is optional at the moment. How will anyone except the energy supplier
determine the occupancy of the property from the data? AFAIK the data is
encrypted.


--
Peter Crosland

Reply address is valid

[Jeff Gaines]

On 03/10/2017 in message <f3icmp...@mid.individual.net> Andy Burns
wrote:

>Ian Smith wrote:
>
>>My electricity company wants to replace my meter, with a smart
>>meter. While I'm not particularly interested in discussing the pros
>>and cons of smart meters: I don't want one
>
>Then tell the supplier they're welcome to fit a new "dumb" meter, but not

>a smart one which are not compulsory ...
>
><https://www.smartenergygb.org/en/smart-future/about-the-rollout>

May seem daft but think as well about how you will be able to read it. My
old rotating wheel meter was replaced for the same reason as yours. They
put in an LCD meter where I have to push a button to read the daytime use
then push again for night reading. Problem is the ceiling is about 10 feet
high, the meter is just below ceiling height and I am 70 with arthritis. I
can no longer read the meter by standing on a chair nor can I take a
picture of it.

--
Jeff Gaines Wiltshire UK
It may be that your sole purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others.

[davi...@gmail.com]

How would even the energy supplier determine any more than the power consumption of the property? Mine consumes electricity whether I'm in or not. If someone is hanging around outside your house anyway there are more reliable ways of figuring out whether it's occupied.

[Martin Brown]

Also the ones being fitted at present are not truly secure and will have
to be replaced - it is a pointless box ticking exercise of the sort that
technically clueless politicians are keen to set. It is no wonder that
techies and other experts view politicians with undisguised contempt.

All the "smart meters" installed so far are fit only for landfill. The
next generation ought to be OK with a bit of help from GCHQ.

http://www.computerweekly.com/news/4500279800/Government-warned-of-smart-meter-security-threat-back-in-2012

It isn't clear yet if they can be firmware upgraded to adequacy.

NB it isn't the threat to your single home that is the worry. It is the
threat of some malevolent hackers switching large numbers of homes on
and off grid synchronously that would crash the mains power network.

PS mine is still a prehistoric counter rotating mechanical dials type.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[rmla...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, October 3, 2017 at 10:06:11 PM UTC+1, Ian Smith wrote:
> My electricity company wants to replace my meter, with a smart meter.
>
> I know why they want to do this - the government says they have to
> replace some proportion of their meters or get penalised. However,
> I'm interested in why they say they want to: the letter I have
> received states "Your Electric meter is nearing the end of its
> lifespan and needs to be replaced. This is a legal obligation set out
> to us by Ofgem - the energy regulator".

We got a very similar letter (from EoN) after a year or so of saying we did not want to upgrade our meter. But because this letter said the old meter was at the end of its life we agreed. We arranged a time and stayed at home (off work) all morning. They never showed up or called us. THey later told us they had been unable to park (in fact there was a space right outside the house empty all morning). They then asked us to book anther date and we asked for a saturday. Oh, but there is no free appointment for saturdays and a huge waiting list to get on the booking list; it will take months before we get round to it. So the issue is in the long grass again.

Robert

[rmla...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, October 4, 2017 at 8:50:21 AM UTC+1, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 03/10/2017 22:10, Andy Burns wrote:
> > Ian Smith wrote:
> >
> >> My electricity company wants to replace my meter, with a smart
> >> meter. While I'm not particularly interested in discussing the pros
> >> and cons of smart meters: I don't want one
> >
> > Then tell the supplier they're welcome to fit a new "dumb" meter, but
> > not a smart one which are *not* compulsory ...
> >
> > <https://www.smartenergygb.org/en/smart-future/about-the-rollout>
>
> Also the ones being fitted at present are not truly secure and will have
> to be replaced - it is a pointless box ticking exercise of the sort that
> technically clueless politicians are keen to set. It is no wonder that
> techies and other experts view politicians with undisguised contempt.
>
> All the "smart meters" installed so far are fit only for landfill. The
> next generation ought to be OK with a bit of help from GCHQ.
>
> http://www.computerweekly.com/news/4500279800/Government-warned-of-smart-meter-security-threat-back-in-2012
>
> It isn't clear yet if they can be firmware upgraded to adequacy.

This is a problem with many of the 'internet-of-things'. The devices are typically 'sell and forget' with people upgrading only by buying a whole new device. if the older ones don't get software upgrades then eventually people will find out how to hack them. then we will get the "denial of service mass attack of the toasters" scenario.

[Jon Ribbens]

On 2017-10-04, Jethro_uk <jeth...@hotmailbin.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 22:27:50 +0100, Peter Crosland wrote:
>> It is optional at the moment. How will anyone except the energy supplier
>> determine the occupancy of the property from the data? AFAIK the data is
>> encrypted.
>

> A statement which means nothing if the encryption is available to a 3rd
> party. Like the government.

Or indeed if the encryption is implemented badly - it is very easy to
get it wrong, especially for this sort of thing.

[Roland Perry]

In message <de8af2e5-8df7-40ae...@googlegroups.com>, at
00:32:19 on Wed, 4 Oct 2017, davi...@gmail.com remarked:

>> > While I'm not particularly interested in discussing the pros and cons
>> > of smart meters: I don't want one, primarily because I don't want data
>> > that enables an outside party to determine the occupancy status of my
>> > house leaving the building every 30 minutes.
>>
>> It is optional at the moment. How will anyone except the energy supplier
>> determine the occupancy of the property from the data?
>
>How would even the energy supplier determine any more than the power consumption
>of the property? Mine consumes electricity whether I'm in or not.

The whole point of smart metering is [supposed to be] having sufficient
data to be able to spot specific usage and provide hints to the user
that perhaps they could consider running their washing machine overnight
rather than in the middle of the day.

Depending on the granularity of the data, security researchers claim to
be able to tell what TV channel you are watching by observing the
changing power consumption caused by "smart backlighting" adapting to
the brightness of the image being instantaneously displayed.
--
Roland Perry

[Peter Crosland]

They can't! The whole thing is just more paranoia and scaremongering.
Meanwhile although they are in theory available my energy supplier,
Npower, will not or cannot, fit a Smart meter as I have solar panels.
Who do I sell my solar power to? You guessed Npower. I am going to have
another go at finding why but I need to get past the front line call
centre operatives wo of course just work from a script.

[Roland Perry]

In message <1c66a44f-1888-4453...@googlegroups.com>, at
01:04:23 on Wed, 4 Oct 2017, rmla...@gmail.com remarked:

>> All the "smart meters" installed so far are fit only for landfill. The
>> next generation ought to be OK with a bit of help from GCHQ.
>>
>> http://www.computerweekly.com/news/4500279800/Government-warned-of-smart-meter-security-threat-back-in-2012
>>
>> It isn't clear yet if they can be firmware upgraded to adequacy.
>
>This is a problem with many of the 'internet-of-things'. The devices are typically 'sell and forget' with people upgrading only by buying a
>whole new device. if the older ones don't get software upgrades then eventually people will find out how to hack them. then we will get the
>"denial of service mass attack of the toasters" scenario.

None of this should be the slightest news to anyone.

Such weaknesses in CPE (Customer Premises Equipment), specifically
cable/ADSL routers, has been known about and discussed within the
Internet industry for at least 20yrs.
--
Roland Perry

[Ian Smith]

I might take that approach.

It's actually quite a new meter that they say is old and unsafe - it's
about a decade old, small beige LCD box. So the 'your meter is old
and may be unsafe' bit is lies. The 'smart meter will help you save
money' is also untrue in my opinion.

But back to the question I asked - does anyone know what the
supposed legal requirement imposed on the supplier to replace my meter
is? Is it only, as I suspect, the requirement that the supplier must
replace n% of their meters =with smart meters or pay a penalty? (That
not being what I would could a legal requirement.).

[Martin Brown]

On 04/10/2017 13:57, Ian Smith wrote:
> On Tue, 3 Oct 2017 22:10:46 +0100, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>> Ian Smith wrote:
>>
>>> My electricity company wants to replace my meter, with a smart
>>> meter. While I'm not particularly interested in discussing the pros
>>> and cons of smart meters: I don't want one
>>
>> Then tell the supplier they're welcome to fit a new "dumb" meter, but
>> not a smart one which are *not* compulsory ...
>>
>> <https://www.smartenergygb.org/en/smart-future/about-the-rollout>
>
> I might take that approach.
>
> It's actually quite a new meter that they say is old and unsafe - it's
> about a decade old, small beige LCD box. So the 'your meter is old
> and may be unsafe' bit is lies. The 'smart meter will help you save
> money' is also untrue in my opinion.

If you pay attention to the feedback it provides it will perhaps shave
10% off your electricity bill by making you more aware of the base load.
If you find and optimise the stuff that is always on you do save money.

Old modem supplies down the back of furniture and TVs running their
digital decoders continuously even in standby. That sort of thing.

If you have already done this through an Owl or other clip on power
realtime power measurement device then there is no advantage.

> But back to the question I asked - does anyone know what the
> supposed legal requirement imposed on the supplier to replace my meter
> is? Is it only, as I suspect, the requirement that the supplier must
> replace n% of their meters =with smart meters or pay a penalty? (That
> not being what I would could a legal requirement.).

They are supposed to install smart meters to tick a box. The ones being
installed at present are inadequate and not fit for purpose.

You are not obliged to have one and in some locations where the mobile
phone signal is non-existent you can't have one even if you want it.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/smart-meters-how-they-work

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Peter Johnson]

On Wed, 4 Oct 2017 12:10:46 +0100, Peter Crosland <g6...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

>
>They can't! The whole thing is just more paranoia and scaremongering.
>Meanwhile although they are in theory available my energy supplier,
>Npower, will not or cannot, fit a Smart meter as I have solar panels.
>Who do I sell my solar power to? You guessed Npower. I am going to have
>another go at finding why but I need to get past the front line call
>centre operatives wo of course just work from a script.

That must have something to do with the model of meter supplied by
Npower. Ovo replaced my meters a couple of years ago, with no problems
arising from the panels on the roof.
(And here's a screengrab from my account showing, on the right, their
estimate of my usage breakdown because I let them take readings every
30 minutes: https://1drv.ms/i/s!AkhvgPvXD0_14ANROPMmPbrlMPLw. How they
do it is explained here:
https://www.ovoenergy.com/ovo-answers/topics/my-ovo/your-energy-breakdown.html,
which I think should be accessible to non-account holders. At the
present I don't think it is of much use but that might change when, as
they suggest, I can identify my appliances to them. )

[Harry Bloomfield]

Martin Brown formulated on Wednesday :

> If you pay attention to the feedback it provides it will perhaps shave 10%
> off your electricity bill by making you more aware of the base load. If you
> find and optimise the stuff that is always on you do save money.
>
> Old modem supplies down the back of furniture and TVs running their digital
> decoders continuously even in standby. That sort of thing.
>
> If you have already done this through an Owl or other clip on power realtime
> power measurement device then there is no advantage.

They were an ill thought out poor implementation of smart. They are not
entirely useless, but ought to have been much better.

You often cannot swap suppliers, without having the smart meters
replaced by another version of the smart meter, which can takes months.
What does work well, is the consumption logging (once per day, upto
once per 30 minutes), but you have to log in to your suppliers log site
to see that - a local network access for a PC to log, would have been
better.

The in home displays are not that useful, you cannot adjust the full
scale, so when a boiler fires up, they show way beyond the maximum gas
consumption. They are only much use for displaying the instantaneous
consumption and don't really do that well.

>
>> But back to the question I asked - does anyone know what the
>> supposed legal requirement imposed on the supplier to replace my meter
>> is? Is it only, as I suspect, the requirement that the supplier must
>> replace n% of their meters =with smart meters or pay a penalty? (That
>> not being what I would could a legal requirement.).
>
> They are supposed to install smart meters to tick a box. The ones being
> installed at present are inadequate and not fit for purpose.

I agree, a rushed incomplete solution, costing billions, which will
soon need to be replaced with a (hopefully) better thought out MkII SM.
All paid for out of our utility bills.

[Paul Cummins]

In article <or2edu$725$2...@dont-email.me>, jeth...@hotmailbin.com
(Jethro_uk) wrote:

> There have been enough studies that
> show even theoretically sound algorithms are all too often weakened
> by a bad or lazy choice of keys.

Last 10 characters of an Enigma crypt being "HEILHITLER" for example.

--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981
====
Visit North Kent's 2nd biggest supplier of Sour Grapes
http://www.grapesdirect.co.uk

[R. Mark Clayton]

We have appliances that come on in the middle of the night.

[Martin Brown]

On 05/10/2017 09:21, Jeff wrote:
>
>> If you pay attention to the feedback it provides it will perhaps shave
>> 10% off your electricity bill by making you more aware of the base
>> load. If you find and optimise the stuff that is always on you do save
>> money.
>>
>> Old modem supplies down the back of furniture and TVs running their
>> digital decoders continuously even in standby. That sort of thing.
>>
>> If you have already done this through an Owl or other clip on power
>> realtime power measurement device then there is no advantage.
>>
>

> It is  a sad state of affairs if you need some sort of device or app to
> get you to switch off devices that don't need to be powered up!!!

You often don't know that they are on. What you measure gets controlled.

A lot of smart TVs during the digital switchover era default to running
their power hungry digital tuner unless you delve very deeply into their
twisty little maze of menus all alike. It made sense back when digital
was unusual and an old VCR might want to record a digital programme.
However, they kept this default setting long after its use by date.

Speaker systems for PCs are another sink of unnecessary power since they
don't all switch off properly. Things have improved a lot recently newer
products mostly consume <<1W in standby but older stuff can be upto 30W.
Laser printers can be surprisingly power hungry in standby too.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Roland Perry]

In message <7243cdad-6f30-4993...@googlegroups.com>, at
09:10:39 on Thu, 5 Oct 2017, R. Mark Clayton <notya...@gmail.com>
remarked:

>We have appliances that come on in the middle of the night.

Not quite as benign as it once was, now we have incendiary tumble
dryers.
--
Roland Perry

[Vir Campestris]

On 03/10/2017 22:27, Peter Crosland wrote:
> It is optional at the moment. How will anyone except the energy supplier
> determine the occupancy of the property from the data? AFAIK the data is
> encrypted.

At least some of the meters it is encrypted very badly.

I wouldn't trust them. Nor do GCHQ...

<https://www.ft.com/content/ca2d7684-ed15-11e5-bb79-2303682345c8>

Andy

[Peter Crosland]

More paranoia! Do you seriously think that anyone will be interested in
hacking a smart meter to see if you are in residence? I note you have
not answered the question asked.

[rmla...@gmail.com]

the likely scenario is that someone creates an 'app' that does the hacking and then anyone interested buys a copy of it. I can imagine that there are people who would be interested, especially if the app simply gave a list of which houses in the area had nobody at home.

R

[rmla...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, October 4, 2017 at 10:38:08 PM UTC+1, Harry Bloomfield wrote:


> You often cannot swap suppliers, without having the smart meters
> replaced by another version of the smart meter, which can takes months.

i find that hard to credit. I remember being told at least 15 years ago that in Norway (Oslo anyway) the meter allowed you to switch instantly between suppliers.

[Roland Perry]

In message <d473d3dc-fda9-434e...@googlegroups.com>, at
00:59:28 on Fri, 6 Oct 2017, rmla...@gmail.com remarked:

>> You often cannot swap suppliers, without having the smart meters
>> replaced by another version of the smart meter, which can takes months.
>
>i find that hard to credit. I remember being told at least 15 years ago
>that in Norway (Oslo anyway) the meter allowed you to switch instantly
>between suppliers.

Maybe the UK energy companies aren't buying their smart meters from
Norway?
--
Roland Perry

[Adam Funk]

On 2017-10-05, Jethro_uk wrote:

> On Thu, 05 Oct 2017 12:18:00 +0100, Paul Cummins wrote:
>
>> In article <or2edu$725$2...@dont-email.me>, jeth...@hotmailbin.com
>> (Jethro_uk) wrote:
>>
>>> There have been enough studies that show even theoretically sound
>>> algorithms are all too often weakened by a bad or lazy choice of keys.
>>
>> Last 10 characters of an Enigma crypt being "HEILHITLER" for example.
>

> Or the (reported ?) Teutonic practice of placing the date and
> introduction on the same place ?

The example they showed us at Bletchley Park [1] was "WETTERVORSAGE"
(weather forecast). One of the pecularities of the Enigma hardware
was that it could not encrypt a letter as itself, so an early stage of
the decryption process involved moving a card with WETTERVORSAGE along
an encrypted message to find a place where none of the letters
matched.


[1] It's very interesting --- I highly recommend it even though it's
in the south. ;-)

[Andy Burns]

Peter Crosland wrote:

> Do you seriously think that anyone will be interested in
> hacking a smart meter to see if you are in residence?

No. But there are some who might think it was "interesting" to remotely
turn off the gas and electricity to a few hundred thousand customers ...

[Andy Burns]

Harry Bloomfield wrote:

> You often cannot swap suppliers, without having the smart meters
> replaced by another version of the smart meter

While the new supplier may treat them as "dumb" meters if, as is quite
likely, they are not compatible, you are always able to swap supplier
and submit readings by using the Mk1 Human Eyeball method.

I have done exactly that, there is still some increased convenience as I
no longer have to crawl under the stairs or go into the garage to take
readings, I can read the in-house display instead (the meters themselves
do have displays that can be read too).

[Harry Bloomfield]

Andy Burns has brought this to us :

> While the new supplier may treat them as "dumb" meters if, as is quite
> likely, they are not compatible, you are always able to swap supplier and
> submit readings by using the Mk1 Human Eyeball method.
>
> I have done exactly that, there is still some increased convenience as I no
> longer have to crawl under the stairs or go into the garage to take readings,
> I can read the in-house display instead (the meters themselves do have
> displays that can be read too).

I have only had one version of the indoor display, which has worked
with both meter installs. I was surprised to find out it did not have
any facility to provide the actual meter readings.

The indoor display can only provide instantaneous consumption, unless
powered continuously. Powered continuously it can provide an estimate
of cost since installed, plus a bar graph of past/ current consumption.
It also includes green/red/amber LED's, to indicate consumption levels,
but no way to adjust the trigger levels, so gas is either green, or red
when the boiler fire. It doesn't really provide much of a clue of how
much you owe, because it doesn't take into account how much you might
have already paid them.

As it is not really of much use, I soon unplugged it and stuck it the
the drawer.

[Harry Bloomfield]

rmla...@gmail.com submitted this idea :

> i find that hard to credit. I remember being told at least 15 years ago
> that in Norway (Oslo anyway) the meter allowed you to switch instantly
> between suppliers.

I finally had an SM's installed by OVO in July 2016.

I then swapped suppliers to First in November, at which point the
'smart' stopped and I was back to sending them manual readings.

First had to then send a fitter out again, to swap the meters for two
which were visually identicle. So I was 'Smart' again in June 2017. The
actual meters were changed in mid-May, but there is always a delay
between fitting and them becoming fully active.

I too found it hard to believe that the system could be such a mess.

They do suggest that sometime in the future, that all meter readings
are intended to go via a common shared system, so swapping suppliers
should be able to be instant so far as the meters are concerned.

[Martin Brown]

That would be the Chinese usage of "interesting" although it would be
more likely North Korean hackers that did it. Instantaneous large
changes in the load on the national grid can cause serious problems.

They have to prepare for half time in major TV sports events.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Martin Brown]

On 06/10/2017 07:49, Jeff wrote:
>>> It is  a sad state of affairs if you need some sort of device or app
>>> to get you to switch off devices that don't need to be powered up!!!
>>
>> You often don't know that they are on. What you measure gets controlled.
>>
>> A lot of smart TVs during the digital switchover era default to
>> running their power hungry digital tuner unless you delve very deeply
>> into their twisty little maze of menus all alike. It made sense back
>> when digital was unusual and an old VCR might want to record a digital
>> programme. However, they kept this default setting long after its use
>> by date.
>>
>> Speaker systems for PCs are another sink of unnecessary power since
>> they don't all switch off properly. Things have improved a lot
>> recently newer products mostly consume <<1W in standby but older stuff
>> can be upto 30W. Laser printers can be surprisingly power hungry in
>> standby too.
>

> But you unplug these anyway to save power, so why do you need a smart
> meter to tell you??

I don't unplug anything unless I am away for a long time. All PC
peripherals are on smart extension sockets which power the peripherals
only when the relevant main PC is on. My router runs 24/7 as does the
burglar alarm, emergency lighting and kitchen appliances.

If you know where the power is going and what your base load is you can
investigate to find any offending devices. There is a huge variation in
what power things take when they are nominally "off" these days.

> It is just an excuse to get smart meters installed which are of benefit
> to the supplier and of little use to the consumer.

You are paranoid. You can buy a self contained clip on device that gives
you the immediate feedback or realtime usage for about £30. A typical
household will save that in the first year of use. It is invaluable in
out Village Hall since it prevents people walking out leaving the
heating or immersion heater on full bore overnight - burning money.

> Also I wonder ho much extra load all there smart meters are putting on
> the grid.

Considerably less power than the old synchronous motor based wheels and
cogs meter like I have.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Peter Crosland]

You still have not answered the question of how the so called Smart
Meter will actual know that people are at home? The meters really are
not that clever. There are very few UK homes that don't have some
equipment like fridges or freezers running 24/7 365 so at thirty minute
intervals there will be consumption. There is nothing in the data that
indicates the property address just a string of numbers. As I said paranoia.

[Peter Crosland]

On 06/10/2017 11:23, Jethro_uk wrote:

> A single smart meter ? No.
>
> A network of smart meters which could be used to thump the grid with
> massive surges triggering blackouts and potential civil unrest ? Yes.

RAOTFLOLPMP! More paranoia.

[Adam Funk]

On 2017-10-06, Jethro_uk wrote:

> On Fri, 06 Oct 2017 09:33:04 +0100, Adam Funk wrote:
>> On 2017-10-05, Jethro_uk wrote:
>>> On Thu, 05 Oct 2017 12:18:00 +0100, Paul Cummins wrote:

>>>> Last 10 characters of an Enigma crypt being "HEILHITLER" for example.
>>>
>>> Or the (reported ?) Teutonic practice of placing the date and
>>> introduction on the same place ?

That sort of thing is often useful for cracking geocaching puzzles:
for example, you know the plaintext should end up like "N52 2#.###
W001 1#.###" (where "#" represents a digit you don't know yet).

>> The example they showed us at Bletchley Park [1] was "WETTERVORSAGE"
>> (weather forecast). One of the pecularities of the Enigma hardware was
>> that it could not encrypt a letter as itself, so an early stage of the
>> decryption process involved moving a card with WETTERVORSAGE along an
>> encrypted message to find a place where none of the letters matched.
>>
>>
>> [1] It's very interesting --- I highly recommend it even though it's
>> in the south. ;-)
>

> If "IT" is your _profession_ then there really is no excuse not to have
> been at least once if you live in the UK. The fact that there are always
> international visitors (whose appreciation can shame the natives)
> suggests this is not a mere geographical sentiment.
>
> The "peculiarity" of the enigma was more than that. It was a weakeness
> which the team at BP deconstructed and used to setup the bombes.

Indeed!

> Which
> underscores my previous assertion that a lot of decryption uses
> weaknesses rather than brute force. Starting with the rather existential
> question: "What is random ?"

"The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to
chance." Robert R. Coveyou

"Random numbers should not be generated with a method chosen at
random." Donald Knuth

"Alea iacta est." Julius Caesar

[Andy Burns]

Peter Crosland wrote:

> There are very few UK homes that don't have some
> equipment like fridges or freezers running 24/7 365 so at thirty minute
> intervals there will be consumption.

I wouldn't expect the meters report the usage at 30 minute intervals,
just record it at 30 minute intervals, then report it once per month.

Why would the supplier want the costs of sending 1440 records per month
rather than one?

[Mark Goodge]

On Fri, 6 Oct 2017 13:10:14 +0100, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

>Peter Crosland wrote:
>
>> There are very few UK homes that don't have some
>> equipment like fridges or freezers running 24/7 365 so at thirty minute
>> intervals there will be consumption.
>
>I wouldn't expect the meters report the usage at 30 minute intervals,
>just record it at 30 minute intervals, then report it once per month.

No, it gets sent back continuously, on the same schedule as the
metering. Obviously, the local device caches it and will retry if it
can't get through the first time, but it's supposed to be in near
real-time to the measurement. That real-time usage data is partly
what's valuable to the energy companies.

>Why would the supplier want the costs of sending 1440 records per month
>rather than one?

It's mobile data. Even if charged by the byte[1], it costs no more to
split it into multiple smaller packets than sending as one larger one.
In the same way that it doesn't cost you any more to download Usenet
one post at a time than it does to download it all in one go.

[1] And I suspect it isn't; I expect the energy companies have a
flat-rate deal with the mobile networks. It's trivially small amounts
of data, anyway, so per-Mb costs are very unlikely to come into it.

Mark

[Andy Burns]

Mark Goodge wrote:

> It's mobile data. Even if charged by the byte[1], it costs no more to
> split it into multiple smaller packets than sending as one larger one.

My smart meter is relatively old, as far as I'm aware it is only a 2G
device, and sends SMS messages not GPRS data ...

[Martin Brown]

Actually it is a real threat although more likely when the large
distributed load is switched on and off fairly rapidly. Think of it as a
DDOS attack but against national infrastructure.

ISTR a very long time ago BBC Look North was allowed into the CEGB
control centre and the presenter asked the innocent sounding question:

"If people at home all switched something on would we see this needle
move?" they did and a chunk of national grid dropped off as a result.

Must have been during the 1960's sometime. CEGB tightened up who they
allowed into the main control room after that. No more live broadcasts.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Roland Perry]

In message <q_WdnY-dLqsD-0rE...@brightview.co.uk>, at
12:18:54 on Fri, 6 Oct 2017, Peter Crosland <g6...@yahoo.co.uk>
remarked:

>You still have not answered the question of how the so called Smart
>Meter will actual know that people are at home? The meters really are
>not that clever.

See "disaggregation" here:

<https://www.ovoenergy.com/ovo-answers/topics/my-ovo/your-energy-
breakdown.html>

The threat model also includes being able to access the data from the
meter, and waiting for it to be sent to the energy provider and snooping
it in transit or on arrival isn't the only potential way.

Water meters are read by being "poked" using a mobile gadget somewhere
in the neighbourhood, for example.

When we get to EV-triggered rolling blackouts, there's going to have to
be some mechanism to broadcast selective load-shedding commands to smart
meters, for example.
--
Roland Perry

[Brian Reay]

On 06/10/17 14:10, Jethro_uk wrote:

> When I worked at British Gas, we had an "awayday" to the CEGB control
> centre (they visited us too).
>
> One engineer commented how easy the gas boys had it, as it was possible
> to "linepack" the gas grid to store gas. In fact the entire commercial
> operation of the grid relied on it. Buying cheap gas after 6pm, pumping
> the pressure in the grid up to 75bar (1050 psi) and running it down
> during the day.
>
> Quite a few of the compressors were modified Rolls Royce RB-211 engines
> which were powered by the gas in the grid. Running one for a day used
> more gas that a small town. Hence my job of working out minimum
> compressor usage ....
>
> If a high pressure main were to fracture, it would throw the flame over
> 400metres ...
>

I don't doubt want you say but, I assume, they have some kind of system
to detect such 'ruptures' and cut off the 'pump'. Pipe rupture devices
are common on (smaller) LPG installations- including (for example) in
some mobilehomes which have gas heaters in the 'habitation area' which
can be used while the vehicle is in motion.

[Tony Dragon]

On 04/10/2017 18:47, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
> Martin Brown formulated on Wednesday :

>> If you pay attention to the feedback it provides it will perhaps shave
>> 10% off your electricity bill by making you more aware of the base
>> load. If you find and optimise the stuff that is always on you do save
>> money.
>>
>> Old modem supplies down the back of furniture and TVs running their
>> digital decoders continuously even in standby. That sort of thing.
>>
>> If you have already done this through an Owl or other clip on power
>> realtime power measurement device then there is no advantage.
>

> They were an ill thought out poor implementation of smart. They are not
> entirely useless, but ought to have been much better.

>
> You often cannot swap suppliers, without having the smart meters

> replaced by another version of the smart meter, which can takes months.

> What does work well, is the consumption logging (once per day, upto once
> per 30 minutes), but you have to log in to your suppliers log site to
> see that - a local network access for a PC to log, would have been better.
>
> The in home displays are not that useful, you cannot adjust the full
> scale, so when a boiler fires up, they show way beyond the maximum gas
> consumption. They are only much use for displaying the instantaneous
> consumption and don't really do that well.
>>
>>> But back to the question I asked - does anyone know what the
>>> supposed legal requirement imposed on the supplier to replace my meter
>>> is?  Is it only, as I suspect, the requirement that the supplier must
>>> replace n% of their meters =with smart meters or pay a penalty?  (That
>>> not being what I would could a legal requirement.).
>>
>> They are supposed to install smart meters to tick a box. The ones
>> being installed at present are inadequate and not fit for purpose.
>
> I agree, a rushed incomplete solution, costing billions, which will soon
> need to be replaced with a (hopefully) better thought out MkII SM. All
> paid for out of our utility bills.

I have had a smart meter for some time and have a local display that
gives me meter readings, usage,etc (gas & ele) presumably by wi-fi.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Roland Perry]

In message <or7ua1$1gh8$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, at 13:52:16 on Fri, 6 Oct
2017, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> remarked:

>ISTR a very long time ago BBC Look North was allowed into the CEGB
>control centre and the presenter asked the innocent sounding question:
>
>"If people at home all switched something on would we see this needle
>move?" they did and a chunk of national grid dropped off as a result.

I heard it as "if I ask everyone watching to switch something on, would
we be able to see on the meter". I'm not sure if he then asked, but lots
of people did switch something on anyway.
--
Roland Perry

[Adam Funk]

On 2017-10-06, Jethro_uk wrote:

> On Fri, 06 Oct 2017 12:35:10 +0100, Adam Funk wrote:

>> On 2017-10-06, Jethro_uk wrote:

>>> Which underscores my previous assertion that a lot of decryption uses
>>> weaknesses rather than brute force. Starting with the rather
>>> existential question: "What is random ?"
>>
>> "The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to
>> chance." Robert R. Coveyou
>>
>> "Random numbers should not be generated with a method chosen at random."
>> Donald Knuth
>>
>> "Alea iacta est." Julius Caesar
>

> I'm slightly surprised that modern PC design hasn't included some sort of
> white noise generator which can be read at will to produce as close to
> random as you can get.
>
> I guess just a snippet of SETI data could do the job ?

Well, the best source is radioactive decay

https://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/

but most people would probably object to having that sort of thing on
their desk.

[Roland Perry]

In message <or81l4$n65$2...@dont-email.me>, at 14:49:24 on Fri, 6 Oct 2017,
Brian Reay <no...@m.com> remarked:

>> If a high pressure main were to fracture, it would throw the flame
>>over 400metres ...
>
>I don't doubt want you say but, I assume, they have some kind of system
>to detect such 'ruptures' and cut off the 'pump'. P

I recall one such rupture on the outskirts of Ashford burning for really
quite a long time. Enough to trash the EuroStar service that day.
--
Roland Perry

[Andy Burns]

Tony Dragon wrote:

> I have had a smart meter for some time and have a local display that
> gives me meter readings, usage,etc (gas & ele) presumably by wi-fi.

More likely Wireless M-BUS or Zigbee Smart Energy Profile, or some
proprietary signalling over an ISM transceiver at 868MHz or whatever.

[spuorg...@gowanhill.com]

On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 14:20:22 UTC+1, Ian Smith wrote:
> It's actually quite a new meter that they say is old and unsafe - it's
> about a decade old, small beige LCD box. So the 'your meter is old
> and may be unsafe' bit is lies. ... does anyone know what the

> supposed legal requirement imposed on the supplier to replace my meter
> is?

The requirement depends on the meter type and its proven reliability in accuracy. Some meters require replacing after 10 years, and some types can be run for longer.

The "may be unsafe" bit is quite true, not because of the age of the meter but if they didn't do the terminals up nice and tight when they fitted it the connections may overheat. Modern meters and newer installs appear to be, anecditally, worse than good old fashioned bakelite and brass stuff.

Owain

[spuorg...@gowanhill.com]

On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 07:47:12 UTC+1, Jeff Gaines wrote:
> ...
> put in an LCD meter where I have to push a button to read the daytime use
> then push again for night reading. Problem is the ceiling is about 10 feet
> high, the meter is just below ceiling height and I am 70 with arthritis. I
> can no longer read the meter by standing on a chair nor can I take a
> picture of it.

If there is suitable space lower down (where the meter and wiring won't be bashed by people, doors etc) your supplier should relocate your meter so you can read it, without charge.

Owain

[Roland Perry]

In message <or89va$725$1...@dont-email.me>, at 16:11:22 on Fri, 6 Oct
2017, Jethro_uk <jeth...@hotmailbin.com> remarked:

>>>> If a high pressure main were to fracture, it would throw the flame
>>>>over 400metres ...
>>>
>>>I don't doubt want you say but, I assume, they have some kind of system
>>>to detect such 'ruptures' and cut off the 'pump'. P
>>
>> I recall one such rupture on the outskirts of Ashford burning for really
>> quite a long time. Enough to trash the EuroStar service that day.
>

>The HP grid didn't extent too far into the SE from my memory.

It had a massive flame, and you could hear the roar for miles around.
--
Roland Perry

[lordgnome]

On 06/10/2017 18:33, Jethro_uk wrote:
>
>
> My chemistry is rusty (despite having worked for two major energy
> suppliers :) ) but ISTR that to get methane (propane, butane) to
> *explode* you need a very precise ratio of air/fuel. Otherwise you just
> get a big flame.
>

I would have thought the greatest hazard might come from a drop in
pressure/leak allowing air to mix with the gas in the pipe - which could
make a very long candle!

[Harry Bloomfield]

Andy Burns presented the following explanation :

> I wouldn't expect the meters report the usage at 30 minute intervals, just
> record it at 30 minute intervals, then report it once per month.

They can be set to record the data every 30 minutes, then upload it
once per day at around midnight. That is what mine does now for both E
& G, I can check today's usage for every 30 minutes, on my suppliers
website tomorrow.

[Harry Bloomfield]

Mark Goodge presented the following explanation :

> No, it gets sent back continuously, on the same schedule as the
> metering. Obviously, the local device caches it and will retry if it
> can't get through the first time, but it's supposed to be in near
> real-time to the measurement. That real-time usage data is partly
> what's valuable to the energy companies.

Are you sure about that? My own enquiries suggest the data is only
uploaded once per day, during the night. Why would a supplier need a
customers data more often than that? If they need real-time data, from
a consumer area, they can get that metering at the sub-stations,
distribution and at the generating stations.

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ provides live, national grid
loading.

[Andy Burns]

Harry Bloomfield wrote:

> Andy Burns presented the following explanation :
>
>> I wouldn't expect the meters report the usage at 30 minute intervals, just
>> record it at 30 minute intervals, then report it once per month.
>

> I can check today's usage for every 30 minutes, on my suppliers
> website tomorrow.

OK, I didn't have mine set mine for more frequent than monthly, and
they're no longer smart since I changed supplier, so the burglars might
infer when they should have broken in yesterday!

[Roland Perry]

In message <or8eov$725$1...@dont-email.me>, at 17:33:20 on Fri, 6 Oct
2017, Jethro_uk <jeth...@hotmailbin.com> remarked:

>Interesting.
>
>The high pressure network was 75 bar. It's entirely possible that the
>connecting low-pressure network (i.e. the one down your street) has since
>been uprated. I know where I live almost all gas mains have been replaced
>(with plastic).
>
>But as your description makes it clear, there is a risk of running high
>pressure gas in densely populated areas ...

It wasn't a populated area at all. Might have been the edge of an
industrial estate (like everyone else, getting closer than about a mile
wasn't allowed).

>My chemistry is rusty (despite having worked for two major energy
>suppliers :) ) but ISTR that to get methane (propane, butane) to
>*explode* you need a very precise ratio of air/fuel. Otherwise you just
>get a big flame.
>

>Which is why LPG canisters aren't really bomb material. Although I
>wouldn't stand next to one in a fire ....

--
Roland Perry

[Yellow]

On Tue, 3 Oct 2017 18:02:32 -0000 (UTC), Ian Smith
<i...@astounding.org.uk> wrote:
>
> My electricity company wants to replace my meter, with a smart meter.
>
> I know why they want to do this - the government says they have to
> replace some proportion of their meters or get penalised. However,
> I'm interested in why they say they want to: the letter I have
> received states "Your Electric meter is nearing the end of its
> lifespan and needs to be replaced. This is a legal obligation set out
> to us by Ofgem - the energy regulator". It goes on to say my meter
> may be unreliable and may be unsafe, but the good news is that I can
> get a spiffy smart meter for free.
>
> Does anyone know what the "legal obligation" referenced is? I know
> suppliers used to have an obligation to inspect meters periodically,
> but I think that's been withdrawn (there was certainly a consultation
> on it, and I'm fairly convinced mine has not been inspected within
> the last few years).
>
> While I'm not particularly interested in discussing the pros and cons
> of smart meters: I don't want one, primarily because I don't want data
> that enables an outside party to determine the occupancy status of my
> house leaving the building every 30 minutes.
>
> regards, Ian SMith

I haven't read the entire thread so apologise if someone has brought
this up already, but was your letter form Eon?

If so, you might find this enlightening.


http://tinyurl.com/y8ffstlr

or

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-4946078/Eon-fire-smart-
meter-bullying.html

[Michael Chare]

On 04/10/2017 10:38, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <de8af2e5-8df7-40ae...@googlegroups.com>, at
> 00:32:19 on Wed, 4 Oct 2017, davi...@gmail.com remarked:

>>> > While I'm not particularly interested in discussing the pros and cons
>>> > of smart meters: I don't want one, primarily because I don't want data
>>> > that enables an outside party to determine the occupancy status of my
>>> > house leaving the building every 30 minutes.
>>>

>>> It is optional at the moment. How will anyone except the energy supplier
>>> determine the occupancy of the property from the data?
>>

>> How would even the energy supplier determine any more than the power
>> consumption
>> of the property? Mine consumes electricity whether I'm in or not.
>
> The whole point of smart metering is [supposed to be] having sufficient
> data to be able to spot specific usage and provide hints to the user
> that perhaps they could consider running their washing machine overnight
> rather than in the middle of the day.
>

Yes, it is a scheme to make you pay more to cook your dinner in the
evening rather than at 2am. The less well off will likely be the
biggest losers.


--
Michael Chare

[Janet]

In article <orba3c$kf4$1...@dont-email.me>, mUNDERS...@chareDO.Torg.uk
says...

For the last 30+ years we've had twin-tarriff meters providing
cheaper power for 10 timed hours a day, split into three periods.
As far as possible I always use cheap tarriff to heat water, rooms, and
run the washer and dryer and do large batch baking.
It's an excellent economy for anyone to take advantage of.


Janet.

[Roland Perry]

In message <orba3c$kf4$1...@dont-email.me>, at 20:32:02 on Sat, 7 Oct 2017,
Michael Chare <mUNDERS...@chareDO.Torg.uk> remarked:

>> The whole point of smart metering is [supposed to be] having
>>sufficient data to be able to spot specific usage and provide hints
>>to the user that perhaps they could consider running their washing
>>machine overnight rather than in the middle of the day.
>
>Yes, it is a scheme to make you pay more to cook your dinner in the
>evening rather than at 2am. The less well off will likely be the
>biggest losers.

I don't cook my dinner in a washing machine, although it has been tried:

http://dish.allrecipes.com/washing-machine-sous-vide/
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <MPG.34434b6...@news.individual.net>, at 21:37:40 on
Sat, 7 Oct 2017, Janet <nob...@home.com> remarked:

>> > The whole point of smart metering is [supposed to be] having sufficient
>> > data to be able to spot specific usage and provide hints to the user
>> > that perhaps they could consider running their washing machine overnight
>> > rather than in the middle of the day.
>>
>> Yes, it is a scheme to make you pay more to cook your dinner in the
>> evening rather than at 2am. The less well off will likely be the
>> biggest losers.
>
> For the last 30+ years we've had twin-tarriff meters providing
>cheaper power for 10 timed hours a day, split into three periods.

That depends on the region, most have just one 7hr period.

iirc you live in the "wilds of Scotland" which has a scheme rather
different from the majority of the UK.

>As far as possible I always use cheap tarriff to heat water, rooms, and
>run the washer and dryer and do large batch baking.
> It's an excellent economy for anyone to take advantage of.

It's only cheaper if you can reliably use more than 35% of your
electricity during the 29% of the time the cheap rate is active.
Obviously that means using less on average during the day, despite that
being when lighting, TV, cooking and other non-quarantineable activities
take place.

In my household of four the prospect of organising the laundry to be
done in two shifts (overnight day 1 washing, overnight day 2 drying)
virtually continuously would cause a riot.
--
Roland Perry

[Yellow]

On Sun, 8 Oct 2017 14:42:51 +0100, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>
> In message <MPG.34434b6...@news.individual.net>, at 21:37:40 on
> Sat, 7 Oct 2017, Janet <nob...@home.com> remarked:
>

> It's only cheaper if you can reliably use more than 35% of your
> electricity during the 29% of the time the cheap rate is active.
> Obviously that means using less on average during the day, despite that
> being when lighting, TV, cooking and other non-quarantineable activities
> take place.
>
> In my household of four the prospect of organising the laundry to be
> done in two shifts (overnight day 1 washing, overnight day 2 drying)
> virtually continuously would cause a riot.

I managed just fine when I had a E7 tariff some years back. Heat your
water over night of course and use the washing machine. A washer/drier
is a good option if you like to tumble, as you can dry as part of the
single program and machines now come with built in delay start options.
Takes discipline and a bit of organisation but once it is routine, no
problem.

Now money isn't so tight, who can be arsed? And I no longer have
electric water heating so I doubt I could ever make it financial
worthwhile now in any case, but it is a well do-able option if it is.

[Michael Chare]

I did have what was called Economy 7 but I had to stop as I did not use
enough off peak electricity. The problem with smart meters is that they
could just charge more during the morning and evening peaks and maybe
have a different charge for you peak usage. My electricity consumption
is very peaky. The peaks are caused by the electric kettle, hob and
oven. IIRC there was a supplier offering some sort of cheap weekend rate.


--
Michael Chare

[Janet]

In article <P28tg7Ab...@perry.co.uk>, rol...@perry.co.uk says...

>
> In message <MPG.34434b6...@news.individual.net>, at 21:37:40 on
> Sat, 7 Oct 2017, Janet <nob...@home.com> remarked:
>
> >> > The whole point of smart metering is [supposed to be] having sufficient
> >> > data to be able to spot specific usage and provide hints to the user
> >> > that perhaps they could consider running their washing machine overnight
> >> > rather than in the middle of the day.
> >>
> >> Yes, it is a scheme to make you pay more to cook your dinner in the
> >> evening rather than at 2am. The less well off will likely be the
> >> biggest losers.
> >
> > For the last 30+ years we've had twin-tarriff meters providing
> >cheaper power for 10 timed hours a day, split into three periods.
>
> That depends on the region, most have just one 7hr period.
>
> iirc you live in the "wilds of Scotland" which has a scheme rather
> different from the majority of the UK.

Economy 10 is available all over UK

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_10

"For example, customers in central Scotland (within the Scottish Power
Energy Networks DNO area) are on the following times:

3 hours in the afternoon (1.30pm - 4.30pm)
4 hours in the evening (8.30pm - 12.30am)
3 hours in early morning (4.30am - 7.30am)

Another set of times (West Midlands) are:

3 hours in the afternoon (1pm - 4pm)
2 hours in the evening (8pm - 10pm)
5 hours overnight (Midnight - 5am)

>
> >As far as possible I always use cheap tarriff to heat water, rooms, and
> >run the washer and dryer and do large batch baking.
> > It's an excellent economy for anyone to take advantage of.
>
> It's only cheaper if you can reliably use more than 35% of your
> electricity during the 29% of the time the cheap rate is active.

see above

The washing machine, heating and hot water all use automatic timers so
fitting their operation into cheap periods is effortless.

> Obviously that means using less on average during the day, despite that
> being when lighting, TV, cooking and other non-quarantineable activities
> take place.

See above.

>
> In my household of four the prospect of organising the laundry to be
> done in two shifts (overnight day 1 washing, overnight day 2 drying)
> virtually continuously would cause a riot.

I laundered a household of six on cheap-rate power.

Janet

[Janet]

In article <ordu2f$vbk$1...@dont-email.me>, mUNDERS...@chareDO.Torg.uk
says...

Economy 10 is much more flexible.

Janet

[Roland Perry]

In message <MPG.34445e6be...@News.Individual.NET>, at 17:10:51
on Sun, 8 Oct 2017, Yellow <no...@none.com.invalid> remarked:

>On Sun, 8 Oct 2017 14:42:51 +0100, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>>
>> In message <MPG.34434b6...@news.individual.net>, at 21:37:40 on
>> Sat, 7 Oct 2017, Janet <nob...@home.com> remarked:
>>
>> It's only cheaper if you can reliably use more than 35% of your
>> electricity during the 29% of the time the cheap rate is active.
>> Obviously that means using less on average during the day, despite that
>> being when lighting, TV, cooking and other non-quarantineable activities
>> take place.
>>
>> In my household of four the prospect of organising the laundry to be
>> done in two shifts (overnight day 1 washing, overnight day 2 drying)
>> virtually continuously would cause a riot.
>
>I managed just fine when I had a E7 tariff some years back. Heat your
>water over night of course and use the washing machine. A washer/drier
>is a good option if you like to tumble, as you can dry as part of the
>single program and machines now come with built in delay start options.
>Takes discipline and a bit of organisation but once it is routine, no
>problem.

I had a washer/drier when I was single, and just about coped. Would take
two overnight cycles though - one for colours and one for whites.

With a family of four, a washer/drier simply wouldn't cope. Even with
separate washers and driers, on E7 you'd be loading and swapping every
single evening.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <MPG.3444e82...@news.individual.net>, at 02:58:42 on
Mon, 9 Oct 2017, Janet <nob...@home.com> remarked:

>>
>> >> > The whole point of smart metering is [supposed to be] having sufficient
>> >> > data to be able to spot specific usage and provide hints to the user
>> >> > that perhaps they could consider running their washing machine overnight
>> >> > rather than in the middle of the day.
>> >>
>> >> Yes, it is a scheme to make you pay more to cook your dinner in the
>> >> evening rather than at 2am. The less well off will likely be the
>> >> biggest losers.
>> >
>> > For the last 30+ years we've had twin-tarriff meters providing
>> >cheaper power for 10 timed hours a day, split into three periods.
>>
>> That depends on the region, most have just one 7hr period.
>>
>> iirc you live in the "wilds of Scotland" which has a scheme rather
>> different from the majority of the UK.
>
> Economy 10 is available all over UK

I'm behind the times on this tariff, but it's not available from all
suppliers.

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_10
>
> "For example, customers in central Scotland (within the Scottish Power
>Energy Networks DNO area) are on the following times:
>
> 3 hours in the afternoon (1.30pm - 4.30pm)
> 4 hours in the evening (8.30pm - 12.30am)
> 3 hours in early morning (4.30am - 7.30am)
>
>Another set of times (West Midlands) are:
>
> 3 hours in the afternoon (1pm - 4pm)
> 2 hours in the evening (8pm - 10pm)
> 5 hours overnight (Midnight - 5am)
>
>> >As far as possible I always use cheap tarriff to heat water, rooms, and
>> >run the washer and dryer and do large batch baking.
>> > It's an excellent economy for anyone to take advantage of.
>>
>> It's only cheaper if you can reliably use more than 35% of your
>> electricity during the 29% of the time the cheap rate is active.
>
> see above

What's the amount you have to use in 10hrs to break even?

> The washing machine, heating and hot water all use automatic timers so
>fitting their operation into cheap periods is effortless.

The Scottish bands look much easier to fit timers into, but it's hardly
an "off peak" tariff. What happens if your washer is still going at 10pm
in the West Midlands - hopefully you just get charged more rather than
it switching off at the meter.

>> Obviously that means using less on average during the day, despite that
>> being when lighting, TV, cooking and other non-quarantineable activities
>> take place.
>
> See above.
>>
>> In my household of four the prospect of organising the laundry to be
>> done in two shifts (overnight day 1 washing, overnight day 2 drying)
>> virtually continuously would cause a riot.
>
> I laundered a household of six on cheap-rate power.

Yes, I can see how that might be possible on Economy 10 since 2004. E7,
impossible.
--
Roland Perry

[Yellow]

On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 06:58:28 +0100, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk>

Yes, it would need organisation and discipline so you have to really
want to. Which most people don't, especially if they can afford not to
want to.

This is one of the reasons I am against smart meters, because I am sure
that we will end up having different tariffs at different times of day
forced on us, like it or not.

At least with E7 you can decide to have it or not to have.

[Adam Funk]

On 2017-10-06, Jethro_uk wrote:

> On Fri, 06 Oct 2017 16:30:02 +0100, Adam Funk wrote:
>> On 2017-10-06, Jethro_uk wrote:

>>> I'm slightly surprised that modern PC design hasn't included some sort
>>> of white noise generator which can be read at will to produce as close
>>> to random as you can get.

AIUI Unix-like systems get entropy from the timings of keypresses &
mouse movements, but I'm not sure about headless servers.

>>> I guess just a snippet of SETI data could do the job ?
>>
>> Well, the best source is radioactive decay
>>
>> https://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/
>>
>> but most people would probably object to having that sort of thing on
>> their desk.

You could probably design something safe for that --- there were after
all nuclear-powered pacemakers in the early 1970s that were small
enough & sufficiently shielded to put inside people's chests. The big
problem is ensuring that they are disposed of properly & don't end up
melted into scrap metal.


> LOL:
>
> I have a radioactive light on my keyring. Should last another 5 years.
>
> Unlike semi automatic rifles, it's illegal in the US, apparently ...

and Kinder eggs...