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Bitcoin and probate
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Martin Brown
Jan 8, 2018, 6:54:55 AM1/8/18
to
A question regarding Bitcoin in particular but other highly volatile
cryptocurrencies in general. A friend with a taste for high end powerful
desktops and servers mined a few Bitcoins back in the very early days
when they were worth about $5 each. I joked with him that it had used
more electricity than that to make them. They are to the best of my
knowledge still lurking on one of his hard disks somewhere. He hangs
onto them since they cost him nothing and just keep going up in value.
What arrangements should he put in place to make sure that someone else
can access them in the event of his demise? His RAID disk arrays include
many TB of stuff so finding things could be a problem. He's a Unix guru.
I expect they may be just so many random bits if the master password to
access them or the physical bit patterns of the wallet are lost.
ISTR a someone combing a waste tip for a thrown away old hard drive
loaded with £5M in Bitcoin a while back when values first soared.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-25134289
As their value continues to rise exponentially with time even owning a
handful of them could still be of significant value.
But how do you obtain a certified valuation for probate on something
like Bitcoin which is
a) outside the banking system
b) almost untraceable
c) valuation fluctuates wildly hour to hour
I can for see that it may well fall to me to sort these things out, but
I have never gotten into using Bitcoin or mining them myself.
Can the valuation used be revised later if the value of Bitcoin went
through the floor between date of death and grant of probate or could
the estate be liable to IHT on the highly inflated bubble valuation?
(it looks a lot like tulip mania to me)
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
cryptocurrencies in general. A friend with a taste for high end powerful
desktops and servers mined a few Bitcoins back in the very early days
when they were worth about $5 each. I joked with him that it had used
more electricity than that to make them. They are to the best of my
knowledge still lurking on one of his hard disks somewhere. He hangs
onto them since they cost him nothing and just keep going up in value.
What arrangements should he put in place to make sure that someone else
can access them in the event of his demise? His RAID disk arrays include
many TB of stuff so finding things could be a problem. He's a Unix guru.
I expect they may be just so many random bits if the master password to
access them or the physical bit patterns of the wallet are lost.
ISTR a someone combing a waste tip for a thrown away old hard drive
loaded with £5M in Bitcoin a while back when values first soared.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-25134289
As their value continues to rise exponentially with time even owning a
handful of them could still be of significant value.
But how do you obtain a certified valuation for probate on something
like Bitcoin which is
a) outside the banking system
b) almost untraceable
c) valuation fluctuates wildly hour to hour
I can for see that it may well fall to me to sort these things out, but
I have never gotten into using Bitcoin or mining them myself.
Can the valuation used be revised later if the value of Bitcoin went
through the floor between date of death and grant of probate or could
the estate be liable to IHT on the highly inflated bubble valuation?
(it looks a lot like tulip mania to me)
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Peter Crosland
Jan 8, 2018, 7:49:18 AM1/8/18
to
them ASAP and use that value. Anything else would be a lottery that puts
the executor in an impossible position.
--
Peter Crosland
Reply address is valid
Chris R
Jan 8, 2018, 9:55:18 AM1/8/18
to
On 08/01/2018 11:54, Martin Brown wrote:
> A question regarding Bitcoin in particular but other highly volatile
> cryptocurrencies in general. A friend with a taste for high end powerful
> desktops and servers mined a few Bitcoins back in the very early days
> when they were worth about $5 each. I joked with him that it had used
> more electricity than that to make them. They are to the best of my
> knowledge still lurking on one of his hard disks somewhere. He hangs
> onto them since they cost him nothing and just keep going up in value.
It's a bubble. He should sell. Most people cannot afford to lose the
> cryptocurrencies in general. A friend with a taste for high end powerful
> desktops and servers mined a few Bitcoins back in the very early days
> when they were worth about $5 each. I joked with him that it had used
> more electricity than that to make them. They are to the best of my
> knowledge still lurking on one of his hard disks somewhere. He hangs
> onto them since they cost him nothing and just keep going up in value.
current value of their Bitcoin hoard, but can afford to lose out on any
future gain they might make before the price crashes.
>
> What arrangements should he put in place to make sure that someone else
> can access them in the event of his demise? His RAID disk arrays include
> many TB of stuff so finding things could be a problem. He's a Unix guru.
>
As with all assets, everyone should take precautions to make sure their
> What arrangements should he put in place to make sure that someone else
> can access them in the event of his demise? His RAID disk arrays include
> many TB of stuff so finding things could be a problem. He's a Unix guru.
>
records are accessible by someone else in case of emergency. The trouble
with Bitcoin is that there is no-one you can go to waving the grant of
probate and asking them to retrieve the asset for you.
> Can the valuation used be revised later if the value of Bitcoin went
> through the floor between date of death and grant of probate or could
> the estate be liable to IHT on the highly inflated bubble valuation?
> (it looks a lot like tulip mania to me)
>
relief can be claimed if the asset is later disposed of for less than
the probate value.
At least tulips had some inherent value, and look nice.
--
Chris R
========legalstuff========
I post to be helpful but not claiming any expertise nor intending
anyone to rely on what I say. Nothing I post here will create a
professional relationship or duty of care. I do not provide legal
services to the public. My posts here refer only to English law except
where specified and are subject to the terms (including limitations of
liability) at http://www.clarityincorporatelaw.co.uk/legalstuff.html
======end legalstuff======
Roland Perry
Jan 8, 2018, 10:21:18 AM1/8/18
to
In message <p300oi$orf$1...@dont-email.me>, at 14:55:12 on Mon, 8 Jan 2018,
Chris R <invalid...@invalid.invalid.com> remarked:
>It's a bubble. He should sell.
If he can find anyone to sell it to. The Bitcoin bubble relies very
largely (I'm told) on the monumental illiquidity of the market.
While it smacks of money laundering, I'd suggest they used the bitcoins
to buy a genuine Rolex (or something easier to provenance) from a naive
online seller of such, and then cash it in, in the bricks and mortar
world.
--
Roland Perry
Chris R <invalid...@invalid.invalid.com> remarked:
>It's a bubble. He should sell.
largely (I'm told) on the monumental illiquidity of the market.
While it smacks of money laundering, I'd suggest they used the bitcoins
to buy a genuine Rolex (or something easier to provenance) from a naive
online seller of such, and then cash it in, in the bricks and mortar
world.
--
Roland Perry
Robin
Jan 8, 2018, 11:24:30 AM1/8/18
to
On 08/01/2018 14:55, Chris R wrote:
>
> The value at the date of death is used for inheritance tax purposes, but
> relief can be claimed if the asset is later disposed of for less than
> the probate value.
>
I may be having a "senior moment" but so far I haven't been able to
>
> The value at the date of death is used for inheritance tax purposes, but
> relief can be claimed if the asset is later disposed of for less than
> the probate value.
>
recall or find an option to do that for Bitcoin.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
GB
Jan 8, 2018, 12:31:36 PM1/8/18
to
On 08/01/2018 14:55, Chris R wrote:
> It's a bubble. He should sell. Most people cannot afford to lose the
> current value of their Bitcoin hoard, but can afford to lose out on any
> future gain they might make before the price crashes.
That's an interesting statement. I think it (more or less**) implies
> current value of their Bitcoin hoard, but can afford to lose out on any
> future gain they might make before the price crashes.
that you are quite sure that Bitcoins are absolutely bound to crash
rather than double from today's price. You may well be right, but then
again ....
The trouble is that you probably would have said exactly the same at the
start of November, and the price now is almost three times as high.
I freely admit that I thought about buying a few Bitcoins when they were
£50 each, and I thought the idea was preposterous.
**It's a bit more complicated because of the marginal utility of money.
GB
Jan 8, 2018, 12:32:00 PM1/8/18
to
On 08/01/2018 12:49, Peter Crosland wrote:
> On 08/01/2018 11:54, Martin Brown wrote:
>> But how do you obtain a certified valuation for probate on something
>> like Bitcoin which is
>>
>> a) outside the banking system
>> b) almost untraceable
>> c) valuation fluctuates wildly hour to hour
You need the value at close of business on the day your friend dies.
> On 08/01/2018 11:54, Martin Brown wrote:
>> But how do you obtain a certified valuation for probate on something
>> like Bitcoin which is
>>
>> a) outside the banking system
>> b) almost untraceable
>> c) valuation fluctuates wildly hour to hour
There are various exchanges that trade bitcoins. The valuation is
available to within some degree of accuracy.
If the bitcoins are irretrievable from the system because you don't have
a password, that raises a very interesting theoretical question that I
don't know the answer to, but I suspect that b) above is a practical
solution.
>>
>> Can the valuation used be revised later if the value of Bitcoin went
>> through the floor between date of death and grant of probate or could
>> the estate be liable to IHT on the highly inflated bubble valuation?
>> (it looks a lot like tulip mania to me)
sale price.
>
> If you have access to them as executor my advice would be to liquidate
> them ASAP and use that value. Anything else would be a lottery that puts
> the executor in an impossible position.
need an answer.
the Omrud
Jan 8, 2018, 12:39:41 PM1/8/18
to
--
David
Chris R
Jan 8, 2018, 12:47:33 PM1/8/18
to
On 08/01/2018 16:24, Robin wrote:
> On 08/01/2018 14:55, Chris R wrote:
>>
>> The value at the date of death is used for inheritance tax purposes,
>> but relief can be claimed if the asset is later disposed of for less
>> than the probate value.
>>
>
> I may be having a "senior moment" but so far I haven't been able to
> recall or find an option to do that for Bitcoin.
>
No, you are right and I was wrong - the perils on relying on articles on
> On 08/01/2018 14:55, Chris R wrote:
>>
>> The value at the date of death is used for inheritance tax purposes,
>> but relief can be claimed if the asset is later disposed of for less
>> than the probate value.
>>
>
> I may be having a "senior moment" but so far I haven't been able to
> recall or find an option to do that for Bitcoin.
>
the web without following through to the sources. It seems there are
only reliefs for quoted securities and land.
https://www.mercerhole.co.uk/images4/uploads/general/Inheritance_Tax_Relief_for_Losses_on_Sale_of_Assets.pdf
Robin
Jan 8, 2018, 1:09:07 PM1/8/18
to
On 08/01/2018 17:47, Chris R wrote:
> On 08/01/2018 16:24, Robin wrote:
>> On 08/01/2018 14:55, Chris R wrote:
>>>
>>> The value at the date of death is used for inheritance tax purposes,
>>> but relief can be claimed if the asset is later disposed of for less
>>> than the probate value.
>>>
>>
>> I may be having a "senior moment" but so far I haven't been able to
>> recall or find an option to do that for Bitcoin.
>>
> No, you are right and I was wrong - the perils on relying on articles on
> the web without following through to the sources. It seems there are
> only reliefs for quoted securities and land.
> https://www.mercerhole.co.uk/images4/uploads/general/Inheritance_Tax_Relief_for_Losses_on_Sale_of_Assets.pdf
>
Phew! Thanks for your honesty.
> On 08/01/2018 16:24, Robin wrote:
>> On 08/01/2018 14:55, Chris R wrote:
>>>
>>> The value at the date of death is used for inheritance tax purposes,
>>> but relief can be claimed if the asset is later disposed of for less
>>> than the probate value.
>>>
>>
>> I may be having a "senior moment" but so far I haven't been able to
>> recall or find an option to do that for Bitcoin.
>>
> No, you are right and I was wrong - the perils on relying on articles on
> the web without following through to the sources. It seems there are
> only reliefs for quoted securities and land.
> https://www.mercerhole.co.uk/images4/uploads/general/Inheritance_Tax_Relief_for_Losses_on_Sale_of_Assets.pdf
>
I think that leaves Bitcoin like "proper" currencies: convert to
Sterling a.s.a.p.
PS
And for completeness there's also a different sort of relief for loss in
value which only applies to potentially exempt transfers which become
chargeable on death.
https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/inheritance-tax-manual/ihtm14622
Robin
Jan 8, 2018, 1:10:20 PM1/8/18
to
<Sobs>
Robert
Jan 8, 2018, 3:11:07 PM1/8/18
to
stored as text files on USB , CDs etc or even printed on paper and kept
safely.
Robin
Jan 8, 2018, 3:40:15 PM1/8/18
to
On 08/01/2018 14:38, GB wrote:
>
>
> If you sell within two years of death, you can substitute the actual
> sale price.
>
Do you have a source for that please?
> sale price.
>
GB
Jan 8, 2018, 3:56:18 PM1/8/18
to
On 08/01/2018 17:47, Chris R wrote:
> On 08/01/2018 16:24, Robin wrote:
>> On 08/01/2018 14:55, Chris R wrote:
>>>
>>> The value at the date of death is used for inheritance tax purposes,
>>> but relief can be claimed if the asset is later disposed of for less
>>> than the probate value.
>>>
>>
>> I may be having a "senior moment" but so far I haven't been able to
>> recall or find an option to do that for Bitcoin.
>>
> No, you are right and I was wrong - the perils on relying on articles on
> the web without following through to the sources. It seems there are
> only reliefs for quoted securities and land.
> https://www.mercerhole.co.uk/images4/uploads/general/Inheritance_Tax_Relief_for_Losses_on_Sale_of_Assets.pdf
>
Well, I said much the same as you, and I was equally wrong. But I was
>> On 08/01/2018 14:55, Chris R wrote:
>>>
>>> The value at the date of death is used for inheritance tax purposes,
>>> but relief can be claimed if the asset is later disposed of for less
>>> than the probate value.
>>>
>>
>> I may be having a "senior moment" but so far I haven't been able to
>> recall or find an option to do that for Bitcoin.
>>
> No, you are right and I was wrong - the perils on relying on articles on
> the web without following through to the sources. It seems there are
> only reliefs for quoted securities and land.
> https://www.mercerhole.co.uk/images4/uploads/general/Inheritance_Tax_Relief_for_Losses_on_Sale_of_Assets.pdf
>
going from my clearly very flawed memory.
Robin
Jan 8, 2018, 4:32:26 PM1/8/18
to
On 08/01/2018 20:40, Robin wrote:
> On 08/01/2018 14:38, GB wrote:
>
>>
>> If you sell within two years of death, you can substitute the actual
>> sale price.
>>
>
> Do you have a source for that please?
>
>
Please ignore: your 18:10 now appeared
> On 08/01/2018 14:38, GB wrote:
>
>>
>> If you sell within two years of death, you can substitute the actual
>> sale price.
>>
>
> Do you have a source for that please?
>
>
Martin Brown
Jan 9, 2018, 3:45:49 AM1/9/18
to
On 08/01/2018 12:49, Peter Crosland wrote:
likely future scenario in the longer term.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Martin Brown
Jan 9, 2018, 4:27:34 AM1/9/18
to
On 08/01/2018 17:47, Chris R wrote:
> On 08/01/2018 16:24, Robin wrote:
>> On 08/01/2018 14:55, Chris R wrote:
>>>
>>> The value at the date of death is used for inheritance tax purposes,
>>> but relief can be claimed if the asset is later disposed of for less
>>> than the probate value.
>>
>> I may be having a "senior moment" but so far I haven't been able to
>> recall or find an option to do that for Bitcoin.
>>
> No, you are right and I was wrong - the perils on relying on articles on
> the web without following through to the sources. It seems there are
> only reliefs for quoted securities and land.
> https://www.mercerhole.co.uk/images4/uploads/general/Inheritance_Tax_Relief_for_Losses_on_Sale_of_Assets.pdf
Does "land" include land with a house on it or just agricultural land?
>> On 08/01/2018 14:55, Chris R wrote:
>>>
>>> The value at the date of death is used for inheritance tax purposes,
>>> but relief can be claimed if the asset is later disposed of for less
>>> than the probate value.
>>
>> I may be having a "senior moment" but so far I haven't been able to
>> recall or find an option to do that for Bitcoin.
>>
> No, you are right and I was wrong - the perils on relying on articles on
> the web without following through to the sources. It seems there are
> only reliefs for quoted securities and land.
> https://www.mercerhole.co.uk/images4/uploads/general/Inheritance_Tax_Relief_for_Losses_on_Sale_of_Assets.pdf
It looks to me like having any bitcoin in a deceased's estate is a
complete nightmare for an executor (and potentially utterly disastrous
for the estate if their value were to crash between death and probate).
At £16k last month owning 40 of them would put you into the IHT tax
bracket but this month they are nearer £11k. It is completely crazy!
Month to month fluctuations of +/-30%.
I presume disposal of such assets are also subject to capital gains tax?
(so that liquidating £11k per year might be one way forward for him)
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Martin Brown
Jan 9, 2018, 4:28:03 AM1/9/18
to
On 08/01/2018 14:55, Chris R wrote:
> On 08/01/2018 11:54, Martin Brown wrote:
>> He hangs onto them since they cost him nothing and just keep going up
>> in value.
>
> It's a bubble. He should sell.
I tried that tack last month at peak bubble.
>> He hangs onto them since they cost him nothing and just keep going up
>> in value.
>
> It's a bubble. He should sell.
> Most people cannot afford to lose the
> current value of their Bitcoin hoard, but can afford to lose out on any
> future gain they might make before the price crashes.
>> What arrangements should he put in place to make sure that someone
>> else can access them in the event of his demise? His RAID disk arrays
>> include many TB of stuff so finding things could be a problem. He's a
>> Unix guru.
>>
> As with all assets, everyone should take precautions to make sure their
> records are accessible by someone else in case of emergency. The trouble
> with Bitcoin is that there is no-one you can go to waving the grant of
> probate and asking them to retrieve the asset for you.
>> Can the valuation used be revised later if the value of Bitcoin went
>> through the floor between date of death and grant of probate or could
>> the estate be liable to IHT on the highly inflated bubble valuation?
>> (it looks a lot like tulip mania to me)
>>
> The value at the date of death is used for inheritance tax purposes, but
> relief can be claimed if the asset is later disposed of for less than
> the probate value.
>
> At least tulips had some inherent value, and look nice.
producing mosaic virus were selling for prices that were more than a
really good house in Holland! Bitcoin still has at least an order of
magnitude or two to go before it reaches those dizzy heights.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania#Rational_explanations
http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20160419-tulip-mania-the-flowers-that-cost-more-than-houses
Interesting that it was the paper based futures contracts that
facilitated the wildest excursions. Some things don't change!
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
John Levine
Jan 9, 2018, 5:03:02 AM1/9/18
to
In article <p2vm6a$13su$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
his other important papers.
Bitcoin keys are long but not so long that you can't retype them by
hand. I've done it.
Yours in Luddism,
John
--
Regards,
John Levine, jo...@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>What arrangements should he put in place to make sure that someone else
>can access them in the event of his demise? His RAID disk arrays include
>many TB of stuff so finding things could be a problem. He's a Unix guru.
Print the wallet keys on a piece of paper and put it wherever he puts
>What arrangements should he put in place to make sure that someone else
>can access them in the event of his demise? His RAID disk arrays include
>many TB of stuff so finding things could be a problem. He's a Unix guru.
his other important papers.
Bitcoin keys are long but not so long that you can't retype them by
hand. I've done it.
Yours in Luddism,
John
--
Regards,
John Levine, jo...@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
Roland Perry
Jan 9, 2018, 5:39:28 AM1/9/18
to
In message <p2vvoi$pu0$1...@dont-email.me>, at 14:38:07 on Mon, 8 Jan 2018,
GB <NOTso...@microsoft.com> remarked:
>>> But how do you obtain a certified valuation for probate on something
>>>like Bitcoin which is
>>>
>>> a) outside the banking system
>>> b) almost untraceable
>>> c) valuation fluctuates wildly hour to hour
>
>You need the value at close of business on the day your friend dies.
>There are various exchanges that trade bitcoins. The valuation is
>available to within some degree of accuracy.
To what extent is such a valuation "certified", and do you have to get
three quotes and then take the middle one?
--
Roland Perry
GB <NOTso...@microsoft.com> remarked:
>>> But how do you obtain a certified valuation for probate on something
>>>like Bitcoin which is
>>>
>>> a) outside the banking system
>>> b) almost untraceable
>>> c) valuation fluctuates wildly hour to hour
>
>You need the value at close of business on the day your friend dies.
>There are various exchanges that trade bitcoins. The valuation is
>available to within some degree of accuracy.
three quotes and then take the middle one?
--
Roland Perry
GB
Jan 9, 2018, 6:25:54 AM1/9/18
to
On 09/01/2018 03:15, John Levine wrote:
> In article <p2vm6a$13su$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
> Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> What arrangements should he put in place to make sure that someone else
>> can access them in the event of his demise? His RAID disk arrays include
>> many TB of stuff so finding things could be a problem. He's a Unix guru.
>
> Print the wallet keys on a piece of paper and put it wherever he puts
> his other important papers.
>
> Bitcoin keys are long but not so long that you can't retype them by
> hand. I've done it.
>
> Yours in Luddism,
> John
>
For greater security, keep them on the internet - by typing them into a
> In article <p2vm6a$13su$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
> Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> What arrangements should he put in place to make sure that someone else
>> can access them in the event of his demise? His RAID disk arrays include
>> many TB of stuff so finding things could be a problem. He's a Unix guru.
>
> Print the wallet keys on a piece of paper and put it wherever he puts
> his other important papers.
>
> Bitcoin keys are long but not so long that you can't retype them by
> hand. I've done it.
>
> Yours in Luddism,
> John
>
post on this newsgroup. That way they can't be lost.
GB
Jan 9, 2018, 6:26:14 AM1/9/18
to
For shares, you used to get a stockbroker to look up the closing prices
on the Daily List. I thought that had all gone by the board now.
Certainly, we did not bother when MIL died, and HMRC did not query it.
Robin
Jan 9, 2018, 7:10:40 AM1/9/18
to
On 09/01/2018 11:02, GB wrote:
> On 09/01/2018 10:35, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <p2vvoi$pu0$1...@dont-email.me>, at 14:38:07 on Mon, 8 Jan
>> 2018, GB <NOTso...@microsoft.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>> But how do you obtain a certified valuation for probate on
>>>>> something like Bitcoin which is
>>>>>
>>>>> a) outside the banking system
>>>>> b) almost untraceable
>>>>> c) valuation fluctuates wildly hour to hour
>>>
>>> You need the value at close of business on the day your friend dies.
>>> There are various exchanges that trade bitcoins. The valuation is
>>> available to within some degree of accuracy.
>>
>> To what extent is such a valuation "certified", and do you have to get
>> three quotes and then take the middle one?
> Does it need to be certified?
I don't know what "certified" means. AFAIK even a valuation from a
> On 09/01/2018 10:35, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <p2vvoi$pu0$1...@dont-email.me>, at 14:38:07 on Mon, 8 Jan
>> 2018, GB <NOTso...@microsoft.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>> But how do you obtain a certified valuation for probate on
>>>>> something like Bitcoin which is
>>>>>
>>>>> a) outside the banking system
>>>>> b) almost untraceable
>>>>> c) valuation fluctuates wildly hour to hour
>>>
>>> You need the value at close of business on the day your friend dies.
>>> There are various exchanges that trade bitcoins. The valuation is
>>> available to within some degree of accuracy.
>>
>> To what extent is such a valuation "certified", and do you have to get
>> three quotes and then take the middle one?
> Does it need to be certified?
member of a professional body is neither more nor less than that
person's opinion of the value. (But one valuation from a professional
valuer - eg RICS for land - instructed to advise on the basis of IHT law
is likely to carry more weight than the middle of 3 valuations from 3
estate agents - especially if it is far from the average.)
> For shares, you used to get a stockbroker to look up the closing prices
> on the Daily List. I thought that had all gone by the board now.
> Certainly, we did not bother when MIL died, and HMRC did not query it.
>
"quarter up" price.
For foreign currency HMRC now generally accept figures based on any of
the many websites which report market rates so I don't see them querying
a value for Bitcoins based on an "honest" site. So I think the business
opportunity for "we-offer-the-lowest-price-for-Bitcoin.com" is limited :)
Robin
Jan 9, 2018, 7:13:48 AM1/9/18
to
On 09/01/2018 10:33, GB wrote:
>
> For greater security, keep them on the internet - by typing them into a
> post on this newsgroup. That way they can't be lost.
Lost, no. Abandoned, yes ;)
>
> For greater security, keep them on the internet - by typing them into a
> post on this newsgroup. That way they can't be lost.
Roland Perry
Jan 9, 2018, 7:14:17 AM1/9/18
to
In message <p327gs$nec$1...@dont-email.me>, at 11:02:49 on Tue, 9 Jan 2018,
>For shares, you used to get a stockbroker to look up the closing prices
>on the Daily List. I thought that had all gone by the board now.
>Certainly, we did not bother when MIL died, and HMRC did not query it.
Share prices are something HMRC can look up and check. Even if they'll
accept some offshore brokerage quote as evidence of value that day, can
they look up the broker's archives to confirm?
--
Roland Perry
GB <NOTso...@microsoft.com> remarked:
>On 09/01/2018 10:35, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <p2vvoi$pu0$1...@dont-email.me>, at 14:38:07 on Mon, 8 Jan
>>2018, GB <NOTso...@microsoft.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>> But how do you obtain a certified valuation for probate on
>>>>>something like Bitcoin which is
>>>>>
>>>>> a) outside the banking system
>>>>> b) almost untraceable
>>>>> c) valuation fluctuates wildly hour to hour
>>>
>>> You need the value at close of business on the day your friend dies.
>>>There are various exchanges that trade bitcoins. The valuation is
>>>available to within some degree of accuracy.
>> To what extent is such a valuation "certified", and do you have to
>>get three quotes and then take the middle one?
>
>Does it need to be certified?
Dunno. That's what the earlier poster asked for, though.
>On 09/01/2018 10:35, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <p2vvoi$pu0$1...@dont-email.me>, at 14:38:07 on Mon, 8 Jan
>>2018, GB <NOTso...@microsoft.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>> But how do you obtain a certified valuation for probate on
>>>>>something like Bitcoin which is
>>>>>
>>>>> a) outside the banking system
>>>>> b) almost untraceable
>>>>> c) valuation fluctuates wildly hour to hour
>>>
>>> You need the value at close of business on the day your friend dies.
>>>There are various exchanges that trade bitcoins. The valuation is
>>>available to within some degree of accuracy.
>> To what extent is such a valuation "certified", and do you have to
>>get three quotes and then take the middle one?
>
>Does it need to be certified?
>For shares, you used to get a stockbroker to look up the closing prices
>on the Daily List. I thought that had all gone by the board now.
>Certainly, we did not bother when MIL died, and HMRC did not query it.
accept some offshore brokerage quote as evidence of value that day, can
they look up the broker's archives to confirm?
--
Roland Perry
Chris R
Jan 9, 2018, 7:32:24 AM1/9/18
to
On 09/01/2018 09:25, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 08/01/2018 14:55, Chris R wrote:
>> On 08/01/2018 11:54, Martin Brown wrote:
>
>>> He hangs onto them since they cost him nothing and just keep going up
>>> in value.
>>
>> It's a bubble. He should sell.
>
> I tried that tack last month at peak bubble.
>
>> Most people cannot afford to lose the current value of their Bitcoin
>> hoard, but can afford to lose out on any future gain they might make
>> before the price crashes.
>
> He didn't buy them - he computed them a very long time ago.
>
No, but he has an asset now with a certain value. Just as if it were a
> On 08/01/2018 14:55, Chris R wrote:
>> On 08/01/2018 11:54, Martin Brown wrote:
>
>>> He hangs onto them since they cost him nothing and just keep going up
>>> in value.
>>
>> It's a bubble. He should sell.
>
> I tried that tack last month at peak bubble.
>
>> Most people cannot afford to lose the current value of their Bitcoin
>> hoard, but can afford to lose out on any future gain they might make
>> before the price crashes.
>
> He didn't buy them - he computed them a very long time ago.
>
stack of £20 notes. If they were £20 notes he wouldn't put them on a
horse, or indeed invest in Bitcoin - he would say he couldn't afford to
lose that much and would no doubt put it in the bank. So it is no
different if the asset happens to be in Bitcoin. No sensible person
would put a large proportion of their personal assets into Bitcoin now.
Leaving it in Bitcoin is making exactly the same decision. What they
cost him is irrelevant.
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